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Message no. 1
From: Joshua Bell <joshbell@**********.COM>
Subject: Double Type Ammo
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 01:34:16 -0400
Hello to you all,

I am new to the list, and hope to add value to your disscussions. (I am
used to getting 3 or 4 messagges a week so imagine my surprise when after
24 HOURS I had 240 messages waiting!)

My first question is this:

I read one SR novel where a charater had APDS/Explosive/Depleated-Uranium
Tiped Ammo for his Ares Combat Assault Rifle.

I was wondering if there are any rules (Published or Agreed-upon) for stats
on Cost/Availability/Street Index etc. for multiple type ammo...?
Message no. 2
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Double Type Ammo
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:18:34 +0100
Joshua Bell said on 1:34/30 Apr 98...

> I am new to the list, and hope to add value to your disscussions. (I am
> used to getting 3 or 4 messagges a week so imagine my surprise when after
> 24 HOURS I had 240 messages waiting!)

The list has been very busy recently; it usually goes up and down every
few months -- expect to only have 30 messages a day in a while, and then
see it rise again.

> I read one SR novel where a charater had APDS/Explosive/Depleated-Uranium
> Tiped Ammo for his Ares Combat Assault Rifle.
>
> I was wondering if there are any rules (Published or Agreed-upon) for stats
> on Cost/Availability/Street Index etc. for multiple type ammo...?

I wouldn't allow it. APDS-DU perhaps (which would increase armor-piercing
a bit, IMHO), but not adding in the explosive as well. As for availability
and street index, I'd put it at "--", IOW you can't get it anywhere at
all, while it will cost a hell of a lot of money -- 300+ nuyen for 10
rounds or so at least. But since you can't get it, the cost is academic...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
You're gonna like it, but not a lot.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 3
From: Paul Gettle <pgettle@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Double Type Ammo
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 10:12:11 -0400
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At 01:34 AM 4/30/98 -0400, Joshua wrote:

>My first question is this:
>
>I read one SR novel where a charater had
APDS/Explosive/Depleated-Uranium
>Tiped Ammo for his Ares Combat Assault Rifle.

Yeah, and I read a novel where a character had a crusader machine
pistol that fired narcoject darts. Some times, the novels seem to bear
little resemblence to the printed rules. (BTW: have any of you GMs
allowed Narcoject darts to be fired from regular firearms? I've seen a
house rule in a net.book for a regular round loaded with gelled
narcoject in the hollow tip, but I'm talking about the darts
themselves)

>I was wondering if there are any rules (Published or Agreed-upon) for
stats
>on Cost/Availability/Street Index etc. for multiple type ammo...?

The closest thing I've seen to a published rule would be some
Shadowtalk in Fields of Fire that mentioned exploding armor piercers.
I think FASA is wary of actually publishing a rule for it, because
they know that the munchkins will abuse it.

Personally, I allow explosive to be combined with APDS, with price and
Availablity TN#'s added together for each, and then multiplied by 1.2,
rounded up. (I call it my 20% munchkin tax) Street Indexes and
Availability Time are multiplied.

Essentially, this makes AP-EX nearly impossible to get, and even when
the players can, they pay through the nose to get it. I ocasionally
have Elite Security and Special Forces Military use that load though,
so sometimes the players have a slight chance of getting some w/o
paying for it. It's my way, as a GM of saying "you've done good, have
a cookie."

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--
-- Paul Gettle (pgettle@********.net)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:11455339 (RSA 1024, created 97/08/08)
625A FFF0 76DC A077 D21C 556B BB58 00AA
Message no. 4
From: Airwasp <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Double Type Ammo
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 12:55:26 EDT
In a message dated 4/30/98 5:44:52 AM !!!First Boot!!!,
joshbell@**********.COM writes:

> I am new to the list, and hope to add value to your disscussions. (I am
> used to getting 3 or 4 messagges a week so imagine my surprise when after
> 24 HOURS I had 240 messages waiting!)

Get'im Bull, a newbie ... and wanting some more email ... welcome to the club,
th

> My first question is this:
>
> I read one SR novel where a charater had APDS/Explosive/Depleated-Uranium
> Tiped Ammo for his Ares Combat Assault Rifle.
>
> I was wondering if there are any rules (Published or Agreed-upon) for stats
> on Cost/Availability/Street Index etc. for multiple type ammo...?

This is actually something up to the GM, as I have not found anything in the
books about this sort of thing.

What I do is add the two or more ammo type costs together and then multiply
the new cost by the number of variants ammo types. It makes for some
expensive ammo, and helps keep player perceptives in check. Hopefully.

Mike
Message no. 5
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: Double Type Ammo
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 13:58:28 -0300
Gurth escreveu:
>
> Joshua Bell said on 1:34/30 Apr 98...
>
>
> > I was wondering if there are any rules (Published or Agreed-upon) for stats
> > on Cost/Availability/Street Index etc. for multiple type ammo...?

> I wouldn't allow it. APDS-DU perhaps (which would increase armor-piercing
> a bit, IMHO), but not adding in the explosive as well. As for availability
> and street index, I'd put it at "--", IOW you can't get it anywhere at
> all, while it will cost a hell of a lot of money -- 300+ nuyen for 10
> rounds or so at least. But since you can't get it, the cost is academic...
>
>

I've been thinking of 10mm C-HEAP ammo (caseless high explosive armor
piercing). It's the
same ammo that the M-41A rifle in Aliens use. +1 power, halves armor
(like APDS) and it's
caseless. Could be used in the above mentioned rifle or in a Heavy
Pistol (wich I think has
a calliber of 10mm).

Ubiratan
Message no. 6
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: Double Type Ammo
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 15:23:25 -0400
Ubiratan P. Alberton wrote:
>> > I was wondering if there are any rules (Published or Agreed-upon) for
>>stats
>> > on Cost/Availability/Street Index etc. for multiple type ammo...?
>
>> I wouldn't allow it. APDS-DU perhaps (which would increase armor-piercing
>> a bit, IMHO), but not adding in the explosive as well. As for availability
>> and street index, I'd put it at "--", IOW you can't get it anywhere at
>> all, while it will cost a hell of a lot of money -- 300+ nuyen for 10
>> rounds or so at least. But since you can't get it, the cost is academic...
>
> I've been thinking of 10mm C-HEAP ammo (caseless high explosive armor
>piercing). It's the
>same ammo that the M-41A rifle in Aliens use. +1 power, halves armor
>(like APDS) and it's
>caseless.

This has possibilities. "What? You want CHEAP ammo? Sure, only
1Y each! Fell off the back of a truck...". Whenever CHEAP ammo
is used, each 1 rolled by the player subtracts one from the power
of the attack. For every 3 1s rolled, reduce the power level by one.

"Oh, so sorry - you meant *C-HEAP* ammo! My mistake..." :-)

James Ojaste
Message no. 7
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Double Type Ammo
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 15:39:27 -0500
>
> Ubiratan P. Alberton wrote:
> >> > I was wondering if there are any rules (Published or Agreed-upon) for
> >>stats
> >> > on Cost/Availability/Street Index etc. for multiple type ammo...?
> >
> >> I wouldn't allow it. APDS-DU perhaps (which would increase armor-piercing
> >> a bit, IMHO), but not adding in the explosive as well. As for availability
> >> and street index, I'd put it at "--", IOW you can't get it
anywhere at
> >> all, while it will cost a hell of a lot of money -- 300+ nuyen for 10
> >> rounds or so at least. But since you can't get it, the cost is academic...
> >
> > I've been thinking of 10mm C-HEAP ammo (caseless high explosive armor
> >piercing). It's the
> >same ammo that the M-41A rifle in Aliens use. +1 power, halves armor
> >(like APDS) and it's
> >caseless.
>
> This has possibilities. "What? You want CHEAP ammo? Sure, only
> 1Y each! Fell off the back of a truck...". Whenever CHEAP ammo
> is used, each 1 rolled by the player subtracts one from the power
> of the attack. For every 3 1s rolled, reduce the power level by one.
>
> "Oh, so sorry - you meant *C-HEAP* ammo! My mistake..." :-)
>
Heh..Just like using crappy reloads today. (That is why professonals load
their own. :)).
I changed my rules, so if your using cheap reloads, a misfire occurs if you
roll any mix of 1's and 2's.


--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 8
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Double Type Ammo
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 11:41:05 +0100
Ubiratan P. Alberton said on 13:58/30 Apr 98...

> I've been thinking of 10mm C-HEAP ammo (caseless high explosive
> armor piercing). It's the same ammo that the M-41A rifle in Aliens use.
> +1 power, halves armor (like APDS) and it's caseless.

The problem I see here is that armor-piercing rounds for small arms
normally have a core of a hard metal (often steel or tungsten) in the soft
metal bullet. However, explosive rounds have a small explosive charge in
the core of the bullet. One or the other has to give -- you can't really
put both into one bullet if you ask me, because then you end up with less
armor-piercing capability _and_ less fragmenting.

For larger-caliber rounds, say 15 mm and up (IRL) you could have rounds
that are both armor-piercing and explosive, but for small arms it's too
much of a trade-off in which you lose a lot and gain very little.

> Could be used in the above mentioned rifle or in a Heavy Pistol (wich I
> think has a calliber of 10mm).

That statement makes about as much sense as saying "A Desert Eagle pistol
is .50 caliber. Can I fire .50 machine gun rounds from it?" IOW, just
because two weapons happen to have the same diameter barrel doesn't mean
they can share ammunition. In SR it's unwise (IMHO) to try and tack actual
calibers onto the guns...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
You're gonna like it, but not a lot.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 9
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: Double Type Ammo
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 11:34:55 -0300
Gurth escreveu:
>
> Ubiratan P. Alberton said on 13:58/30 Apr 98...
>
> > I've been thinking of 10mm C-HEAP ammo (caseless high explosive
> > armor piercing). It's the same ammo that the M-41A rifle in Aliens use.
> > +1 power, halves armor (like APDS) and it's caseless.
>
> The problem I see here is that armor-piercing rounds for small arms
> normally have a core of a hard metal (often steel or tungsten) in the soft
> metal bullet. However, explosive rounds have a small explosive charge in
> the core of the bullet. One or the other has to give -- you can't really
> put both into one bullet if you ask me, because then you end up with less
> armor-piercing capability _and_ less fragmenting.

I'm not a guns expert... I just based that on what they said in the
movie Aliens,
wich takes place a lot of years in the future.

>
>
> > Could be used in the above mentioned rifle or in a Heavy Pistol (wich I
> > think has a calliber of 10mm).
>
> That statement makes about as much sense as saying "A Desert Eagle pistol
> is .50 caliber. Can I fire .50 machine gun rounds from it?" IOW, just
> because two weapons happen to have the same diameter barrel doesn't mean
> they can share ammunition. In SR it's unwise (IMHO) to try and tack actual
> calibers onto the guns...
>

I assume the M-41A fires HP ammo (how else could you fit 95 bullets in
a clip?).
So, it has a base damage of 9M, or 10M armor-piercing with the C-HEAP
ammo. I say
again that I'm not a specialist, so I may be wrong again.

Ubiratan
Message no. 10
From: Stephen Delear <c715591@******.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Double Type Ammo
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 11:03:45 -0500
At 03:39 PM 98-04-30 -0500, you wrote:
>>
>> Ubiratan P. Alberton wrote:
>> >> > I was wondering if there are any rules (Published or Agreed-upon)
for
>> >>stats
>> >> > on Cost/Availability/Street Index etc. for multiple type ammo...?
>> >
>> >> I wouldn't allow it. APDS-DU perhaps (which would increase
armor-piercing
>> >> a bit, IMHO), but not adding in the explosive as well. As for
availability
>> >> and street index, I'd put it at "--", IOW you can't get it
anywhere at
>> >> all, while it will cost a hell of a lot of money -- 300+ nuyen for 10
>> >> rounds or so at least. But since you can't get it, the cost is
academic...
>> >
>> > I've been thinking of 10mm C-HEAP ammo (caseless high explosive armor
>> >piercing). It's the
>> >same ammo that the M-41A rifle in Aliens use. +1 power, halves armor
>> >(like APDS) and it's
>> >caseless.
>>
>> This has possibilities. "What? You want CHEAP ammo? Sure, only
>> 1Y each! Fell off the back of a truck...". Whenever CHEAP ammo
>> is used, each 1 rolled by the player subtracts one from the power
>> of the attack. For every 3 1s rolled, reduce the power level by one.
>>
>> "Oh, so sorry - you meant *C-HEAP* ammo! My mistake..." :-)
>>
>Heh..Just like using crappy reloads today. (That is why professonals load
>their own. :)).
>I changed my rules, so if your using cheap reloads, a misfire occurs if you
>roll any mix of 1's and 2's.
>
Um I'm definatly not an expert on firearms but wouldn't the runners be
using factory ammo and not reloads. I mean I assume that they're using
caseless and even if they arn't I don't think they're going to stop and
pick up shell casings or do you mean that they would be buying reloaded
ammo for some reason?

SteveD


>--
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
>decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>
Stephen Delear
University of Missouri-Columbia
Check out my Photo Message Board at http://www.missouri.edu/~c715591
"Sometimes I do get to places just when God's ready to have somebody click
the shutter" Ansel Adams
Message no. 11
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: Double Type Ammo
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 12:28:42 -0400
Stephen Delear wrote:
>>> This has possibilities. "What? You want CHEAP ammo? Sure, only
>>> 1Y each! Fell off the back of a truck...". Whenever CHEAP ammo
>>> is used, each 1 rolled by the player subtracts one from the power
>>> of the attack. For every 3 1s rolled, reduce the power level by one.
>>>
>>> "Oh, so sorry - you meant *C-HEAP* ammo! My mistake..." :-)
>>>
>>Heh..Just like using crappy reloads today. (That is why professonals load
>>their own. :)).
>>I changed my rules, so if your using cheap reloads, a misfire occurs if you
>>roll any mix of 1's and 2's.
>
>Um I'm definatly not an expert on firearms but wouldn't the runners be
>using factory ammo and not reloads. I mean I assume that they're using

Possibly. You *are* buying weaponry and ammunition illegally, aren't
you? So do you know exactly how that box ended up in your fixer's
hands? Maybe he went out to the site of a firefight and started
scooping up casings...

(Assuming that buying ammo is illegal in Seattle - can't check
right now)

>caseless and even if they arn't I don't think they're going to stop and
>pick up shell casings or do you mean that they would be buying reloaded
>ammo for some reason?

Why would you assume that they're using caseless? It's much more
expensive and doesn't hold together in the rain (ah, but what's the
chance that it'll rain in Seattle on any given day? :-).

As for buying reloads, I think I just answered that.

Not to mention that some groups are so miserly with their ammo that
the ammo they pick off the sec. guards is more than enough...

James Ojaste
Message no. 12
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Double Type Ammo
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 16:02:49 -0500
> Not to mention that some groups are so miserly with their ammo that
> the ammo they pick off the sec. guards is more than enough...

Not miserly, James. Conservative <g>
Message no. 13
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: Double Type Ammo
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 17:29:46 -0300
Ojaste,James [NCR] escreveu:
>
>
> Why would you assume that they're using caseless? It's much more
> expensive and doesn't hold together in the rain (ah, but what's the
> chance that it'll rain in Seattle on any given day? :-).
>
I just assume 2059 caseless ammo is waterproof. It's easier, and not
all that impossible.
Message no. 14
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Double Type Ammo
Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 14:43:52 +0100
Ojaste,James [NCR] said on 12:28/ 1 May 98...

> Possibly. You *are* buying weaponry and ammunition illegally, aren't
> you? So do you know exactly how that box ended up in your fixer's
> hands? Maybe he went out to the site of a firefight and started
> scooping up casings...

It could be a cheap way to sell ammo to shadowrunners who don't think to
check things out beforehand...

> (Assuming that buying ammo is illegal in Seattle - can't check
> right now)

For most ammo types, it's the same as the weapon you're firing it from.

> Not to mention that some groups are so miserly with their ammo that
> the ammo they pick off the sec. guards is more than enough...

I've hardly ever seen anyone run out of ammo in an SR firefight, unless
they were using weapons like double-barrel shotguns that only hold a
handful of rounds.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
You're gonna like it, but not a lot.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 15
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Double Type Ammo
Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 14:43:51 +0100
Ubiratan P. Alberton said on 11:34/ 1 May 98...

> I'm not a guns expert... I just based that on what they said in the
> movie Aliens, wich takes place a lot of years in the future.

Popular movies are usually a bad to very bad choice to base such things
on. SF movies are often worst of all, because for some reason because it's
far-future it doesn't have to obey the laws of physics. (Which IMHO is
fine for space opera, but not for the more "down and dirty" kind of SF
portrayed in Aliens.)

> I assume the M-41A fires HP ammo (how else could you fit 95 bullets in
> a clip?).

95 rounds of ammo, of any caliber, take up quite a lot of space, and the
Aliens weapons don't make all that much sense to me -- they're much too
big and cumbersome, although with 95 rounds they'd have to be ;)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
You're gonna like it, but not a lot.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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