Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: westiex@********.net (Aramis)
Subject: Draconic bodies
Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 06:16:37 +1000
What happens to dragons when they die?

I know off hand of three dragons that have died: Dunklezhan, an eastern
dragon from one of the books (Secrets of Power 01, Never deal with a
dragon) as well as a dragon that Lowfyr fought. However, in all three
cases, no body was ever found.

I had thought that dragons don't leave bodies, prehaps they decomposed
rapidly due to magic. If so, why would Dunklezhan leave his body to the
DIMR in his will?

ARamis.
Message no. 2
From: graht1@*****.com (Graht)
Subject: Draconic bodies
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 13:33:16 -0700
On Thu, 06 Jan 2005 06:16:37 +1000, Aramis <westiex@********.net> wrote:
> What happens to dragons when they die?
>
> I know off hand of three dragons that have died: Dunklezhan, an eastern
> dragon from one of the books (Secrets of Power 01, Never deal with a
> dragon) as well as a dragon that Lowfyr fought. However, in all three
> cases, no body was ever found.

Well, they're dual natured beings. Maybe they are more astral than
physical and when they die their bodies demanifest.

> I had thought that dragons don't leave bodies, prehaps they decomposed
> rapidly due to magic. If so, why would Dunklezhan leave his body to the
> DIMR in his will?

As a joke? Or maybe dragon bodies really do stick around after they
die, but the three cases you cited were exceptions. There isn't going
to be much of anything left after Lofwyr wins a battle. And I'm sure
that Dunky didn't know that he would die in the manner he did. (Out
of curiosity, what's the third example? :) Dunky thought he would
leave a body behind so he willed it to DIMR (maybe to have it stuffed
and converted into the world's largest Tickle me Dunky...).

--
-Graht
Message no. 3
From: jenia_r@*********.net.il (AzureDarkness)
Subject: Draconic bodies
Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 22:40:16 +0200
> As a joke? Or maybe dragon bodies really do stick around
> after they die, but the three cases you cited were
> exceptions. There isn't going to be much of anything left
> after Lofwyr wins a battle. And I'm sure that Dunky didn't
> know that he would die in the manner he did. (Out of
> curiosity, what's the third example? :) Dunky thought he
> would leave a body behind so he willed it to DIMR (maybe to
> have it stuffed and converted into the world's largest Tickle
> me Dunky...).
>
> --
> -Graht

The third example got dumped into Puget Sound. No recovery
operations were conducted, so it's still an open question.
However, Sam Verner did find a draconic fossil tooth, although
that arguably could have been an astral quest - the book isn't
too clear on that.

AzureDarkness
Message no. 4
From: flakjacket@***********.com (Simon Nixon)
Subject: Draconic bodies
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 21:11:00 +0000 (GMT)
Aramis wrote:

> I had thought that dragons don't leave bodies,
> prehaps they decomposed
> rapidly due to magic. If so, why would Dunklezhan
> leave his body to the
> DIMR in his will?

I'm fairly sure they do. One of the bequests in Dunk's
will says,

'To the party who finds the bones of the dragon
skeleton for which I possess the head, I offer two
options. You may keep the bones, or turn them over to
the Draco Foundation for a reward. All discoveries
must be independently verified as dragon bones, such
identification to be made by any living dragon.'

On the leaving his body to the DIMR, I think it's
probably a piece of misdirection on his part. As far
as most people outside of the upper-most parts of the
Draco Foundation and draconic society know or suspect,
he wasn't expecting to die anytime soon. Having that
in the will throws people off. That or he just didn't
get around to changing it before it all happened.
Message no. 5
From: flakjacket@***********.com (Simon Nixon)
Subject: Draconic bodies
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 21:11:32 +0000 (GMT)
AzureDarkness wrote:

> The third example got dumped into Puget Sound. No
> recovery
> operations were conducted, so it's still an open
> question.

Didn't one of the books mention that United Oil
recovered 'something' from the water that they whicked
off under great security and cloak of secrecy?
Message no. 6
From: westiex@********.net (Aramis)
Subject: Draconic bodies
Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 07:26:09 +1000
Graht wrote:

>
> There isn't going
>to be much of anything left after Lofwyr wins a battle. And I'm sure
>that Dunky didn't know that he would die in the manner he did.
>
>
Non magical battle, so it would have been claws, tooth and any other
sharp and pointy bits that Lowfyr had to hand (claw?).

Still would leave something of a body, even if those somethings are of a
shredded nature.

ARamis
Message no. 7
From: graht1@*****.com (Graht)
Subject: Draconic bodies
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 14:41:47 -0700
On Thu, 06 Jan 2005 07:26:09 +1000, Aramis <westiex@********.net> wrote:
> Graht wrote:
>
> >
> > There isn't going
> >to be much of anything left after Lofwyr wins a battle. And I'm sure
> >that Dunky didn't know that he would die in the manner he did.
>
> Non magical battle, so it would have been claws, tooth and any other
> sharp and pointy bits that Lowfyr had to hand (claw?).
>
> Still would leave something of a body, even if those somethings are of a
> shredded nature.

Does non magical include non breath weapon? Cuz if Lofwyr got to use
his breath weapon...

--
-Graht
Message no. 8
From: arclight@*********.de (Arclight)
Subject: Draconic bodies
Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 22:48:21 +0100
At 22:41 05.01.2005, Graht wrote:

<snip>

> > Still would leave something of a body, even if those somethings are of a
> > shredded nature.
>
>Does non magical include non breath weapon? Cuz if Lofwyr got to use
>his breath weapon...

Well, Lofwyr didn't use that one against Nachtmeister IIRC during their
fight in the sky over Frankfurt Main ... so either he wanted to embarass
Nachtmeister even more (ok, not that he won and seemed to have killed him),
or breath is a no-no in dragon duels...


--
Arclight

Quitters never win, winners never quit,
but those who never quit and never win are idiots
Message no. 9
From: graht1@*****.com (Graht)
Subject: Draconic bodies
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 14:59:02 -0700
On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 22:48:21 +0100, Arclight <arclight@*********.de> wrote:
> At 22:41 05.01.2005, Graht wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > > Still would leave something of a body, even if those somethings are of a
> > > shredded nature.
> >
> >Does non magical include non breath weapon? Cuz if Lofwyr got to use
> >his breath weapon...
>
> Well, Lofwyr didn't use that one against Nachtmeister IIRC during their
> fight in the sky over Frankfurt Main ... so either he wanted to embarass
> Nachtmeister even more (ok, not that he won and seemed to have killed him),
> or breath is a no-no in dragon duels...

Ah, okay then (gotta read the novels some time...). Yeah, then there
should have been a body, unless Lofwyr added insult to injury and had
him stuffed and mounted in his private chambers (or added to his
horde), or unless Lofwyr was really hungry afterwards... or maybe
dragons take the time to dispose of the bodies of their opponents
<shrug>. Or, someone else got to the body quickly and made off with
it.

Lots of adventure potential in that one ;)

--
-Graht
Message no. 10
From: arclight@*********.de (Arclight)
Subject: Draconic bodies
Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 23:20:12 +0100
At 22:59 05.01.2005, Graht wrote:

<snip>

>Ah, okay then (gotta read the novels some time...).

I don't read those novels too ;) It's featured in "Deutschland in den
Schatten 2", a german sourcebook.

>Yeah, then there
>should have been a body, unless Lofwyr added insult to injury and had
>him stuffed and mounted in his private chambers (or added to his
>horde), or unless Lofwyr was really hungry afterwards... or maybe
>dragons take the time to dispose of the bodies of their opponents
><shrug>. Or, someone else got to the body quickly and made off with
>it.

Or he wasn't really dead ;) Or teleported ^^ I hate dragons *g*


--
Arclight

Quitters never win, winners never quit,
but those who never quit and never win are idiots
Message no. 11
From: uptoic@***********.net (Aethelwulf)
Subject: Draconic bodies
Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 15:22:24 -0700
AzureDarkness wrote:

>>As a joke? Or maybe dragon bodies really do stick around
>>after they die, but the three cases you cited were
>>exceptions. There isn't going to be much of anything left
>>after Lofwyr wins a battle. And I'm sure that Dunky didn't
>>know that he would die in the manner he did. (Out of
>>curiosity, what's the third example? :) Dunky thought he
>>would leave a body behind so he willed it to DIMR (maybe to
>>have it stuffed and converted into the world's largest Tickle
>>me Dunky...).
>>
>>--
>>-Graht
>>
>>
>
>The third example got dumped into Puget Sound. No recovery
>operations were conducted, so it's still an open question.
>However, Sam Verner did find a draconic fossil tooth, although
>that arguably could have been an astral quest - the book isn't
>too clear on that.
>
>AzureDarkness
>
>
>
>
correct me if I am wrong but wasn't the dragon that verner thought
Haeslic (sp) the draconic head of security for unitied oil? I was under
the impression that he was a Western dragon....

Aethelwulf
Message no. 12
From: jenia_r@*********.net.il (AzureDarkness)
Subject: Draconic bodies
Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 00:32:23 +0200
> >The third example got dumped into Puget Sound. No recovery
> >operations were conducted, so it's still an open question.
> >However, Sam Verner did find a draconic fossil tooth, although
> >that arguably could have been an astral quest - the book isn't
> >too clear on that.
> >
> >AzureDarkness
> >
> >
> >
> >
> correct me if I am wrong but wasn't the dragon that verner thought
> Haeslic (sp) the draconic head of security for unitied oil? I
> was under
> the impression that he was a Western dragon....
>
> Aethelwulf

Haeslich (sp) was indeed a western dragon. As I stated already,
he had a minor disagreement with a six-barreled minigun, and
took a dive into Puget Sound.

AzureDarkness
Message no. 13
From: snicker@*********.net (snicker@*********.net)
Subject: Draconic bodies
Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 02:50:02 +0000
> From: Aramis [mailto:westiex@********.net]
>
> What happens to dragons when they die?

Also mentioned in Secrets of Power 1 (which I just happen to be reading right now) was the
thought that if Dragons were part of the "fourth world" or whatever age Dragon
legends originated in, there had to be a reason that no fossils have been found... Or at
least none have been identified as such...


> I had thought that dragons don't leave bodies, prehaps they decomposed
> rapidly due to magic. If so, why would Dunklezhan leave his body to the
> DIMR in his will?

There were a number of riddles in his will. If, as you surmise, he knew his body would
not be available (due to decomposition, astral disruption, what-have-you), then the real
reward would be for someone to discover a way to prevent or reverse the process. Much of
his will was oriented at people improving themselves or the world around them - perhaps
this was another exercise in disguised philanthropism?

PS - who else thinks that the picture on the front of Never Deal with a Dragon is REALLY
off? Lightning countering dragon breath??? Sheesh. Pay an artist to READ the books next
time :P

Snicker
Message no. 14
From: adamj@*********.com (Adam Jury)
Subject: Draconic bodies
Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 06:48:17 -0700
On 5-Jan-05, at 7:50 PM, snicker@*********.net wrote:

> PS - who else thinks that the picture on the front of Never Deal with
> a Dragon is REALLY off? Lightning countering dragon breath???
> Sheesh. Pay an artist to READ the books next time :P

Typically, cover art is finished before a game book is finished the
development pass. There's often nothing beyond art notes for the artist
to read, and most artists /don't/ want to read tons of material just to
get a few details right; it's the art director's job to distill the
necessary details for them.

Best,
Adam

--
Adam Jury
Editor, The Shadowrun Supplemental :: http://tss.dumpshock.com
Message no. 15
From: weberm@*******.net (Ubiquitous)
Subject: Draconic bodies
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 19:47:26 -0500
At 01:33 PM 1/5/2005 -0700, you wrote:

>Well, they're dual natured beings. Maybe they are more astral than
>physical and when they die their bodies demanifest.

Dual-natured means they're magically active, not that they're manifested.
--
"Ted, sweetheart...somebody's left a wicker basket with a little baby in it
on our front doorstep."
"Just leave it out there on the stoop, honey. The cats'll get it."
- Red Meat http://www.redmeat.com/redmeat/
Message no. 16
From: maxnoel_fr@*****.fr (Max Noel)
Subject: Draconic bodies
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 01:00:55 +0000
On Jan 31, 2005, at 00:47, Ubiquitous wrote:

> At 01:33 PM 1/5/2005 -0700, you wrote:
>
>> Well, they're dual natured beings. Maybe they are more astral than
>> physical and when they die their bodies demanifest.
>
> Dual-natured means they're magically active, not that they're
> manifested.

Not exactly. There are some dual-natured, non-magically active
creatures. Ghouls, shapeshifters and cyberzombies, for example
(although Ghouls and 'shifters can also be magically active -- but you
see my point).

The definition of a dual-natured creature is that it is always
*astrally* active; that is, its body is present and tangible on both
the physical and astral planes, at all times. The astral form is tied
to the physical body, and moves along with it, although their shapes
may differ (case in point: shapeshifters).
Which, now that I think of it, may cause some serious headaches in
some "borderline" cases with astral barriers and wards, as they block
the aura, not the physical body. Thus, the "aura-less" parts of the
body (which for a shapeshifter in human form may include all its upper
half) can go through the barriers, whereas the bodiless parts of the
aura will block some other parts of the body before it actually comes
into contact with the barrier.
A shapeshifter could probably punch you through an astral barrier (and
any mana spells you'd cast through it would still be affected by the
barrier since his aura is on the other side), but he'd have to lean
forward a bit to do that. =^.^
-- Wild_Cat
maxnoel_fr at yahoo dot fr -- ICQ #85274019
"Look at you hacker... A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting
and sweating as you run through my corridors... How can you challenge a
perfect, immortal machine?"
Message no. 17
From: u.alberton@*****.com (Bira)
Subject: Draconic bodies
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 23:13:10 -0200
On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 01:00:55 +0000, Max Noel <maxnoel_fr@*****.fr> wrote:

>
> The definition of a dual-natured creature is that it is always
> *astrally* active; that is, its body is present and tangible on both
> the physical and astral planes, at all times. The astral form is tied
> to the physical body, and moves along with it, although their shapes
> may differ (case in point: shapeshifters).
> Which, now that I think of it, may cause some serious headaches in
> some "borderline" cases with astral barriers and wards, as they block
> the aura, not the physical body (...)

To avoid these headaches, it's best to say the aura always has roughly
the same "shape" as the body... So, the aura of a werewolf walking
around in human form would look like a big wolf walking upright, so
the body parts match.

It makes more sense than having "auraless" parts...

--
Bira
http://compexplicita.blogspot.com
Message no. 18
From: jjvanp@*****.com (Jan Jaap van Poelgeest)
Subject: Draconic bodies
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 17:43:03 -0800 (PST)
--- Max> > Dual-natured means they're magically
active, not
> that they're
> > manifested.
>
> Not exactly. There are some dual-natured,
> non-magically active
> creatures. Ghouls, shapeshifters and cyberzombies,
> for example
> (although Ghouls and 'shifters can also be magically
> active -- but you
> see my point).
>
> The definition of a dual-natured creature is that
> it is always
> *astrally* active; that is, its body is present and
> tangible on both
> the physical and astral planes, at all times. The
> astral form is tied
> to the physical body, and moves along with it,
> although their shapes
> may differ (case in point: shapeshifters).

You have me wondering whether all dual-natured beings
get to perceive astral phenomena. I suppose a
dual-natured being could go about its existence
without ever knowing that anything's happening around
it on the astral plane, yet it would seem strange for
it to be utterly incapable of perceiving that which it
could interact with. In fact, such a dual-natured
being could end up accidentally damaging astral
constructs when just throwing a few practice punches
into thin air.

Cases like that would be "odd" and hence I'd say that
it's well possible that there's at least some kind of
intuitive astral sense present. I guess the question
could be partially resolved by determining whether
shapeshifters ever get to perceive astrally (do
they?).

As I've written previously, the dual-natured
experience of the world must be very different to what
we're used to and conceiving of it might be an
interesting exercise of the imagination. I'd note that
in many of the novels any magical intuitions that
dual-natured protagonists experience tend to be quite
clearly marked as such... perhaps it'd be interesting
to see some fiction that uses current lexicon to
describe the experiences of a dual-natured being.

Perhaps all this SR metaphysics stuff is best left
open, though, as its all stuff that could easily be
glossed over without making much of a difference to
your average adventure. OTOH, it might make one
capable of getting into the groove of 2064 a bit more
when the way the world works is fleshed out to a
deeper degree. That being said, the metaphysics of SR
would probably still be the subject of heavy debate in
2064, making any proposed account just as valid as any
other...

Maybe if I ever end up having way too much free time
on my hands it'd be interesting to translate some
contemporary view on metaphysics into SR in the form
of the logs of an academic debate. It'd be quite a job
to make it exciting (i.e.: derive game effects from
it), though.

Cheers,

Jan Jaap



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
Message no. 19
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Draconic bodies
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 17:46:51 -0800 (PST)
--- Bira <u.alberton@*****.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 01:00:55 +0000, Max Noel <maxnoel_fr@*****.fr>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > The definition of a dual-natured creature is that it is
> always
> > *astrally* active; that is, its body is present and tangible on
> both
> > the physical and astral planes, at all times. The astral form is
> tied
> > to the physical body, and moves along with it, although their
> shapes
> > may differ (case in point: shapeshifters).
> > Which, now that I think of it, may cause some serious
> headaches in
> > some "borderline" cases with astral barriers and wards, as they
> block
> > the aura, not the physical body (...)
>
> To avoid these headaches, it's best to say the aura always has
> roughly
> the same "shape" as the body... So, the aura of a werewolf walking
> around in human form would look like a big wolf walking upright, so
> the body parts match.
>
> It makes more sense than having "auraless" parts...

My approach is more that while the two may not appear the same to the
senses of an observer, they are (metaphysically) occupying the same
space. So when any physical portion of the shapeshifter makes
contact with the ward, so does an astral portion. Those portions may
not appear analagous to an observer (perhaps a physical hand and an
astral snout), but that is not important to the ward.

======Korishinzo
--*shrug* doesn't really make too much difference how it's described
as long as the effect is consistant



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
http://my.yahoo.com
Message no. 20
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Draconic bodies
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 17:51:03 -0800 (PST)
> Maybe if I ever end up having way too much free time
> on my hands it'd be interesting to translate some
> contemporary view on metaphysics into SR in the form
> of the logs of an academic debate. It'd be quite a job
> to make it exciting (i.e.: derive game effects from
> it), though.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jan Jaap

Try this on for size...

How would a dual-natured being not be aware of both worlds
simultaneously? It would be like turning off a sense that is always
on. And if the dual-natured critter had always been so, would it be
able to understand that others could not perceive both realms? For
example, could a werecritter describe something without blending its
physical and astral characteristics indiscriminately?

Food for thought.

======Korishinzo
--and yes, SR metaphysics are probably heavily debated in 2064 too :)



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
Message no. 21
From: jamesson@****.ru (jamesson@****.ru)
Subject: Draconic bodies
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 10:10:13 +0300
Hi all

Long-time lurker sticking his nose in from a philosohy background

IMHO this kind of stuff is _not at all_ meant to be resolved across the board for all
duals. I think every dul has a unique approach to the issue. Didn't the manual say that
even shamans and hermetics percieve the atral differently?

As for game FX, GMs would be well within their rights to write separate rules for all the
individual critters. Some options;

Dragons: If they can't see it, it ain't there. This could be the source of the fabled
dragon wisdom; the ability to get more info out of the astral on anyone or anything than
the highest level mages.
Weres; Some kind of very limited astral sense - auras or something, or maybe even
"smelling" the astral.
Cyberzombies; no astral sense whatsoever, but _complete_ astral interaction. I forget
whether it was SOTA or man and machine, but whichever book it was that described
cyberzombies in (minor) detail specifically stated that magickal theorists believe that
zombies screw up the astral something fierce wherever they go. This could even extend to
extra damage vs. spirits.

For an excellent fictional take on the interactions of divergent paths, see Searching for
Dragons, by Patricia C. Wrede. The main character interacts with magic in a very physical
("adept") fashion, and the other two are basically hermetics. This leads to all
_kinds_ of confusion.

IMHO, this is the kind of thing that is underplayed in SR. The game is so dependent on the
smooth functioning of the team that nobody ever pauses to consider how difficult it is for
various character classes to understand each other. Just because everyone is working on
the same substance (magic) doesnt mean they view it at all similarly.
Message no. 22
From: shadowrunnerdingo@*****.com (Dingo)
Subject: Draconic bodies
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 21:54:01 -0800 (PST)
I am not sending this to say anyone is right or wrong,
but, if Draconic Bodies cannot be found then why are
there (or how can there be) calls for freshly killed
Draconic components as Exotic Materials in Magic Item
Creation? Plus, isn't there some kind of reward (no
matter how illeagal) for killing Dragons?

Dingo



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
Message no. 23
From: maxnoel_fr@*****.fr (Max Noel)
Subject: Draconic bodies
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 11:03:56 +0000
On Feb 1, 2005, at 05:54, Dingo wrote:

> I am not sending this to say anyone is right or wrong,
> but, if Draconic Bodies cannot be found then why are
> there (or how can there be) calls for freshly killed
> Draconic components as Exotic Materials in Magic Item
> Creation? Plus, isn't there some kind of reward (no
> matter how illeagal) for killing Dragons?

Draconic bodies can certainly be found. People are just under the
wrong impression, based on the fact that on the two recorded instances
of great dragons dying (Haesslich -- the one that got shot down in the
Secrets of Power trilogy -- wasn't a great, was he?), the body was
never publicly revealed. This is because:

1) When Lofwyr whacked Nachtmeister, before he even hit the ground
Lofwyr had already bought the entire city block and planted guards and
signs everywhere warning any potential trespassers that they were
crunchy and tasted good with ketchup.
2) Dunkelzahn was at ground zero of a freakin' H-bomb.

All the facts we have tell us about draconic bodies so far, is 1) Some
great dragons don't want us to have access to them, and 2) They're not
solid enough to withstand a thermonuclear explosion.

-- Wild_Cat
maxnoel_fr at yahoo dot fr -- ICQ #85274019
"Look at you hacker... A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting
and sweating as you run through my corridors... How can you challenge a
perfect, immortal machine?"
Message no. 24
From: jjvanp@*****.com (Jan Jaap van Poelgeest)
Subject: Draconic bodies
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 05:45:54 -0800 (PST)
> 2) Dunkelzahn was at ground zero of a freakin'
> H-bomb.
>
> and 2) They're not
> solid enough to withstand a thermonuclear explosion.

In as far as I understand it, Dunklezahn designed his
own ritual demise. Leaving a body would probably have
been inconvenient. No H-bomb was mentioned anywhere,
though I do seem to recall that the presidential limo
just *disappeared* altogether.

Speaking of Dunklezahn's end; he effectively gets to
be reincarnated as a free spirit (Lethe). I wonder if
this is the case for all dragons, or whether this was
part of Dunklezahn's plan. In the former case, it
would grant dragons a kind of immortality, in the
latter it'd be some interesting ritual mojo that can
separate one's astral essence from a body (though
Lethe did seem to be searching for a new body to latch
onto).

Perhaps dragons are normally reincarnated as dragons?
I've not read the Dot6W book yet, so it might mention
in there. IMO it'd make for an interesting bit of
dragon psychology: as a dragon you'd actively know
that you're never going to die, but you simultaneously
realise that you'd lose all benefits your current
existence has brought you (power, wealth, status).


Cheers,

Jan Jaap




__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
Message no. 25
From: maxnoel_fr@*****.fr (Max Noel)
Subject: Draconic bodies
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 15:29:34 +0000
On Feb 1, 2005, at 13:45, Jan Jaap van Poelgeest wrote:

>> 2) Dunkelzahn was at ground zero of a freakin'
>> H-bomb.
>>
>> and 2) They're not
>> solid enough to withstand a thermonuclear explosion.

[WARNING: SPOILERS AHEAD]


















> In as far as I understand it, Dunklezahn designed his
> own ritual demise. Leaving a body would probably have
> been inconvenient. No H-bomb was mentioned anywhere,
> though I do seem to recall that the presidential limo
> just *disappeared* altogether.

Not exactly. Dunkelzahn did indeed commit suicide, so that his death
would charge and activate the Heart of the Dragon. "Stranger Souls"
(Heart of the Dragon trilogy, part 1) describes his death in detail
(from the PoV of Nadja Daviar IIRC).
There is a nuclear explosion (not sure whether it's an A or H bomb,
but that doesn't really matter) which is centered on the presidential
limo, but somehow contained by a magical barrier of insane power
(courtesy of Big D himself) so that the blast radius doesn't exceed a
couple hundred meters.
So, yes, the presidential limo just disappeared. Which is not
surprising considering a nuclear weapon detonated inside it.

Also, from what I've been told, the very last run in "Super Tuesday"
has the runners, hired by Dunkelzahn, planting a case inside the
presidential limo. It does contain a nuke (although the runners aren't
supposed to know, courtesy of very powerful locks).


> Speaking of Dunklezahn's end; he effectively gets to
> be reincarnated as a free spirit (Lethe). I wonder if
> this is the case for all dragons, or whether this was
> part of Dunklezahn's plan. In the former case, it
> would grant dragons a kind of immortality, in the
> latter it'd be some interesting ritual mojo that can
> separate one's astral essence from a body (though
> Lethe did seem to be searching for a new body to latch
> onto).

He wasn't really searching for a new body. He was searching for a way
to interact with physical entities (to warn the head of security that
the Heart was being stolen, IIRC), and possessing someone was the idea
that came to his mind. And also led to his becoming trapped inside a
cyberzombie.
As for whether or not such a thing happens to all great dragons, I
have no idea. Someone who has read Dot6W may be able to answer this.

-- Wild_Cat
maxnoel_fr at yahoo dot fr -- ICQ #85274019
"Look at you hacker... A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting
and sweating as you run through my corridors... How can you challenge a
perfect, immortal machine?"
Message no. 26
From: jt_mcmurray@*******.com (James McMurray)
Subject: Draconic bodies
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 09:53:18 -0600
>As for whether or not such a thing happens to all great dragons, I have no
>idea. Someone who has read Dot6W may be able to answer this.

I keep seeing Dot6W and DotSW being used. What book is that?
Message no. 27
From: maxnoel_fr@*****.fr (Max Noel)
Subject: Draconic bodies
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 15:58:08 +0000
On Feb 1, 2005, at 15:53, James McMurray wrote:

>> As for whether or not such a thing happens to all great dragons, I
>> have no idea. Someone who has read Dot6W may be able to answer this.
>
> I keep seeing Dot6W and DotSW being used. What book is that?

Dragons of the Sixth World.
http://shadowrunrpg.com/products/product.php?
i666&title=Dragons+of+the+Sixth+World

-- Wild_Cat
maxnoel_fr at yahoo dot fr -- ICQ #85274019
"Look at you hacker... A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting
and sweating as you run through my corridors... How can you challenge a
perfect, immortal machine?"
Message no. 28
From: l-hansen@*****.tele.dk (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: Draconic bodies
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 17:00:06 +0100
From: "James McMurray" <jt_mcmurray@*******.com>
> >As for whether or not such a thing happens to all great dragons, I have
> >no idea. Someone who has read Dot6W may be able to answer this.
>
> I keep seeing Dot6W and DotSW being used. What book is that?

Dragons of the Sixth World:
http://www.shadowrunrpg.com/products/product.php?i666&title=Dragons+of+the+Sixth+World

Lars

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Draconic bodies, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!