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Message no. 1
From: Dust <rogan@*******.BERGEN.ORG>
Subject: Dragon breath
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 10:30:17 -0400
Does anyone else think that the SR dragon breathweapon is extremely weak?
If you sustain the dragon has to take drain and it can only do light
damage according to the section on flame projection rules in SR2. Does
anyone suggest something better?

Dust
Message no. 2
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Dragon breath
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 11:58:47 -0600
Dust wrote:
|
| Does anyone else think that the SR dragon breathweapon is extremely weak?
| If you sustain the dragon has to take drain and it can only do light
| damage according to the section on flame projection rules in SR2.

Use the rules in PAoE. If nobody else has quoted them by the time I
get home, I'll look it up and post it for you (I don't think FASA
would mind if it helps GMs use Dragons to their full potential :)

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 3
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Dragon breath
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 16:11:59 -0400
At 11:58 AM 8/28/97 -0600, David Buehrer wrote these timeless words:
>Dust wrote:
>|
>| Does anyone else think that the SR dragon breathweapon is extremely weak?
>| If you sustain the dragon has to take drain and it can only do light
>| damage according to the section on flame projection rules in SR2.
>
>Use the rules in PAoE. If nobody else has quoted them by the time I
>get home, I'll look it up and post it for you (I don't think FASA
>would mind if it helps GMs use Dragons to their full potential :)
>
I wouldn't mind seeing those rules myself, as I don;t have regular access
to Tinner's PNoE, and thought that Dragon Breath was fairly weak myself.

Bull
--
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Message no. 4
From: Debbie Hughes <hughesd@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Dragon breath
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 18:15:55 -0500
And bot wrote,

Sure dust, just make it drainless,and increase the damage to 45D.
Message no. 5
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Dragon breath
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 22:05:41 EDT
On Thu, 28 Aug 1997 10:30:17 -0400 Dust <rogan@*******.BERGEN.ORG>
writes:
>Does anyone else think that the SR dragon breathweapon is extremely
>weak?
>If you sustain the dragon has to take drain and it can only do light
>damage according to the section on flame projection rules in SR2.
>Does
>anyone suggest something better?


You could just rule that they don't take drain.


/ John Pederson aka Lyle Canthros, shapeshifter-mage \
| I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud |
< and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind. >
| --Francis Bacon /----------------------|
\ http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864 |lobo1@****.com /
Message no. 6
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Dragon breath
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 21:42:53 -0600
Bull wrote:
|
| >Use the rules in PAoE. If nobody else has quoted them by the time I
| >get home, I'll look it up and post it for you (I don't think FASA
| >would mind if it helps GMs use Dragons to their full potential :)
| >
| I wouldn't mind seeing those rules myself, as I don;t have regular access
| to Tinner's PNoE, and thought that Dragon Breath was fairly weak myself.

PAoE - Flame Projection: "This power enables a being to project
flames, usually in the form of fiery breath. In addition to
scorching people or other creatures, this power can also set on fire
flammable objects such as ammunition or explosives. This attack has
a Damage Code of (Essence)M, and the victim makes a standard Body
Resistance Test to reduce damage. Impact armor provides protection,
but ballistic armor does not. Maximum range for this attack is
limited to a distance in meters equal to the creature's current
Essence, because the fiery area must originate at some point on the
creature's body. For example, fiery breath comes from the creature's
mouth.

The creature may sustain this attack for more than one action, in
which case it continuously projects the flame into the area of
effect. The area of effect equals a number of square meters equal to
the creature's Essence. If the creature sustains its attack, those
within the affected area must make Damage Resistance Tests for each
of the creature's actions. Such sustained flame projections, hoever,
causes the creature to suffer drain in much the same way as a
magician; the Drain Code is (Essence)S.

Their high Essence Ratings allow dracoforms to use this power in a
more terrifying manner than other creatures. The range of its attack
equals the dracoform's Essence squared, and it can affect a maximum
area equal to the same value in square meters. Add a -2 modifier to
the target number for all Drain tests made by dragons."

So, a Greater Dragon with an Essence of 12 can affect a 12m x 12m
area at a range of 144m with a base damage of 12M. He can sustain
the attack, but faces a 10S drain. Use the optional
grenade/explosion rule from the SRC and you're rolling 6 dice vs a 4
to stage up the damage, which on average will go up to a 12S
(remember, no ballistic armor). And although the runners will likely
survive the first blast, they'll find themselves in the middle of a
12m x 12m inferno as every thing around them ignites. If they don't
have some source of oxygen they are in serious trouble. And make
sure to check to see what equipment survives.

So, are you scared of dragons now? And I didn't even cover the
Noxious Breath and Venom powers.

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 7
From: Shergold <shergold@***********.NET>
Subject: Re: Dragon breath
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 00:08:21 -0400
<snipped stuff on flame projection and all that>

Uggg! I hope I never meet a Greater Dragon in a bad mood.


SilverFire


"Staring into the dragon's jaw, one quickly learns wisdom"


"Jhereg"

Stevne Brust
Message no. 8
From: Gabriel Sims <grendel_22@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Dragon breath
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 22:16:18 PDT
>
><snipped stuff on flame projection and all that>
>
> Uggg! I hope I never meet a Greater Dragon in a bad mood.
>
>
> SilverFire


This makes me seriously think about using a dragon to control
recalcitrant players...(ok, maybe you didn't realize this a first but,
thats a Greater Dragon. Now, your gonna do what to it?!?)

Green Dog

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Message no. 9
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Dragon breath
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 23:09:26 -0700
---Dust wrote:
>
> Does anyone else think that the SR dragon breathweapon is extremely
weak?
> If you sustain the dragon has to take drain and it can only do light
> damage according to the section on flame projection rules in SR2.
Does
> anyone suggest something better?

Keep in mind the area of effect that puppy has, something like
Essencex2 in square meters (don't have the book handy). I also treat
it like an area affect Damage Manip spell, rolling Reaction (ranged
combat) to stage up damage and the characters resist with 1/2 Impact
Armor. It works much more on the level of what you'd expect from a
dragon. My players have run from a dragon that can breathe fire on
more than one occassion. <EGMG>

===
@>--,--'--- Loki

Fearless Leader of the Shadowrun Trading Card Game Mailing List
Web Page: Poisoned Elves at www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/

"You're calling me Bitch like it's a bad thing."
--> CrapGame during the Drive in the Country tournament

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Message no. 10
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Dragon breath
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 23:10:46 -0700
---David Buehrer wrote:
>
> Use the rules in PAoE. If nobody else has quoted them by the time I
> get home, I'll look it up and post it for you (I don't think FASA
> would mind if it helps GMs use Dragons to their full potential :)

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that in my post. The increased AOE for
dragon's flame breath is in PAoE.

===
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Fearless Leader of the Shadowrun Trading Card Game Mailing List
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"You're calling me Bitch like it's a bad thing."
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Message no. 11
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Dragon breath
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 23:11:55 -0700
---Debbie Hughes wrote:
>
> And bot wrote,
>
> Sure dust, just make it drainless,and increase the damage to
45D.

<rolling eyes>

Seeeaaaww, right!

===
@>--,--'--- Loki

Fearless Leader of the Shadowrun Trading Card Game Mailing List
Web Page: Poisoned Elves at www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/

"You're calling me Bitch like it's a bad thing."
--> CrapGame during the Drive in the Country tournament
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Message no. 12
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Dragon breath
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 23:29:51 -0700
---David Buehrer wrote:
>
> Their high Essence Ratings allow dracoforms to use this power in a
> more terrifying manner than other creatures. The range of its attack
> equals the dracoform's Essence squared, and it can affect a maximum
> area equal to the same value in square meters. Add a -2 modifier to
> the target number for all Drain tests made by dragons."
>
> So, a Greater Dragon with an Essence of 12 can affect a 12m x 12m
> area at a range of 144m with a base damage of 12M. He can sustain
> the attack, but faces a 10S drain. Use the optional
> grenade/explosion rule from the SRC and you're rolling 6 dice vs a 4
> to stage up the damage, which on average will go up to a 12S
> (remember, no ballistic armor).

I understood "The range of its attack equals the dracoform's Essence
squared, and it can affect a maximum area equal to the _same value_ in
square meters." to mean the area of affect was also [Essence squared]
in square meters. So in your example the AOE would be 144m x 144m.
Truly frightening with a Great Dragon, it drops to more like 64m x 64m
with the lesser dracoforms.

As I said before, I also use Reaction (+ threat rating) to stage up
damage per a ranged attack (or better yet an AOE DM spell). As it's
magical fire, I also only allow 1/2 Impact Armor to count.

My dragons are DRAGONS!

-== Loki ==-

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Message no. 13
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Dragon breath
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 18:22:22 +1000
> > So, a Greater Dragon with an Essence of 12 can affect a 12m x 12m
> > area at a range of 144m with a base damage of 12M. He can sustain
> > the attack, but faces a 10S drain. Use the optional
> > grenade/explosion rule from the SRC and you're rolling 6 dice vs a 4
> > to stage up the damage, which on average will go up to a 12S
> > (remember, no ballistic armor).
>
> I understood "The range of its attack equals the dracoform's Essence
> squared, and it can affect a maximum area equal to the _same value_ in
> square meters." to mean the area of affect was also [Essence squared]
> in square meters. So in your example the AOE would be 144m x 144m.
> Truly frightening with a Great Dragon, it drops to more like 64m x 64m
> with the lesser dracoforms.
>

There's a difference between Meters Square, and Square meters. A 12x12
Meter area = 144 m^2......

> As I said before, I also use Reaction (+ threat rating) to stage up
> damage per a ranged attack (or better yet an AOE DM spell). As it's
> magical fire, I also only allow 1/2 Impact Armor to count.
>
> My dragons are DRAGONS!
>

Waaaah!

Whay not just use the elemental fire effects out of the Grimoire??? A 12
power level fire effect will ignite almost anything. It'll even melt
through armoured glass (Barrier 6) in 1 phase.... The thicker ballistic
glass (Barrier 8) takes about a turn.

(I hope that FASA is reading this for consideration in 3rd ed.)


For some reason, a Doug Anthony All Stars song comes to mind

(Sing with me Lady J!!)

"Burn baby, burn! Waco inferno baby! Come and burn my commune down!"

Marty
Message no. 14
From: Geoffrey Giesemann <geoffwa@***********.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Dragon breath
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 19:54:27 +1000
Well I hope you learn my motto:
"GET THE FRAG AWAY FROM THAT DRAGON!"


*****
'Dey big, Dey nasty'
Etan da Ork
***
Message no. 15
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Dragon breath
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 06:57:59 -0600
Loki wrote:
|
| ---David Buehrer wrote:
| >
| > Their high Essence Ratings allow dracoforms to use this power in a
| > more terrifying manner than other creatures. The range of its attack
| > equals the dracoform's Essence squared, and it can affect a maximum
| > area equal to the same value in square meters. Add a -2 modifier to
| > the target number for all Drain tests made by dragons."
|
| I understood "The range of its attack equals the dracoform's Essence
| squared, and it can affect a maximum area equal to the _same value_ in
| square meters." to mean the area of affect was also [Essence squared]
| in square meters. So in your example the AOE would be 144m x 144m.

Don't ya love word problems? :)

"The range of its attack equal the dracoform's Essence (12) squared (12 x
12 = 144), and it can affect a maximum area equal to the same value (144)
in square meters (144 square meters, or an area 12m x 12m)."

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 16
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Dragon breath -Reply
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 09:41:57 -0500
>This attack has a Damage Code of
>(Essence)M, and the victim makes a standard
>Body Resistance Test to reduce damage.

Key word: "attack". Critters roll their reaction to
stage up damage from attacks. Heh. No need
to use the optional grenade rules...

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 17
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Dragon breath -Reply
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 09:03:54 -0600
Mike Elkins wrote:
|
| >This attack has a Damage Code of
| >(Essence)M, and the victim makes a standard
| >Body Resistance Test to reduce damage.
|
| Key word: "attack". Critters roll their reaction to
| stage up damage from attacks. Heh. No need
| to use the optional grenade rules...

Well, yeah, if you want to be an Evil GM ;)

I threw in the comment about the grenade rules because I wasn't sure
if you could attack individuals with an area affect attack. You can
go by the letter of the rules and do it, but I wasn't sure about the
intention. However, I would rule that the dragon *does* role
reaction to stage damage with extra successes meaning that the dragon
increased the intensity. So, Reaction vs a 4, modified by cover only
(it's an area, perception modifiers and movement aren't going to
help).

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 18
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Dragon breath -Reply
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 11:20:17 -0500
>I threw in the comment about the grenade rules
>because I wasn't sure if you could attack
>individuals with an area affect attack.

IMHO, the dragon would have to split his reaction
dice between multiple targets, but he could do so
however he wanted. I think that works out pretty
well. And people who don't receive the dragon's
personalized attention still need to resist 12M.

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 19
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Dragon breath -Reply
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 10:25:08 -0600
Mike Elkins wrote:
|
| >I threw in the comment about the grenade rules
| >because I wasn't sure if you could attack
| >individuals with an area affect attack.
|
| IMHO, the dragon would have to split his reaction
| dice between multiple targets, but he could do so
| however he wanted. I think that works out pretty
| well. And people who don't receive the dragon's
| personalized attention still need to resist 12M.

How about splitting the difference. The dragon would apply his
reaction dice to a target that had his personalized attention. A
number of dice equal to half his essence would be applied to all
other targets within the area of effect. If the dragon starts
"splitting" his attack between two or more targets he's better off
just torching the area and applying the "grenade" dice.

So, characters A, B and C are being attacked. The Great Dragon picks
A as his primary target. The dragon rolls his reaction dice vs A,
and Essence/2 vs B and C (note, six dice are rolled vs B, then six
dice are rolled vs C).

Now a dragon's fiery breath is just plain nasty in general, and if he
directs it at you personally you are up shit creek.

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 20
From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Dragon breath -Reply
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 16:06:36 EDT
On Fri, 29 Aug 1997 11:20:17 -0500 Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
writes:
>>I threw in the comment about the grenade rules
>>because I wasn't sure if you could attack
>>individuals with an area affect attack.
>
>IMHO, the dragon would have to split his reaction
>dice between multiple targets, but he could do so
>however he wanted. I think that works out pretty
>well. And people who don't receive the dragon's
>personalized attention still need to resist 12M.

I don't know.. you could also justify making one roll and counting all
the successes (which might vary depending on cover and such) against
everyone in the area. After all, no matter whether the dragon "aims" for
a particular person or not, it's still blanketing a 12x12m area with the
*same* gout of flame.

~Tim
Message no. 21
From: Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dragon breath
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 16:31:43 -0400
On Friday, August 29, 1997 00:08, Shergold[SMTP:shergold@***********.NET] wrote:
> <snipped stuff on flame projection and all that>
>
> Uggg! I hope I never meet a Greater Dragon in a bad mood.
>

You *want* to meet a dragon in a *good* mood?

(OTOH, reliable sources in my campaign suggest that Lofwyr is a very good dancer....)

--
Quicksilver rides again
--------------
Those who would give up a little freedom for security
deserve neither freedom nor security
-Benjamin Franklin
Yeah, I have Attention Deficit Dis - Hey, look at that butterfly!
Jonathan Hurley (mailto:jhurley1@************.edu)
Message no. 22
From: Shergold <shergold@***********.NET>
Subject: Re: Dragon breath
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 17:43:11 -0400
> > <snipped stuff on flame projection and all that>
> >
> > Uggg! I hope I never meet a Greater Dragon in a bad mood.
> >
>
> You *want* to meet a dragon in a *good* mood?

I think I made myself clear on how I felt about meeting a dragon period,
but if I had to meet with a dragon I'd much rather it be in a good mood.

> (OTOH, reliable sources in my campaign suggest that Lofwyr is a very good
dancer....)


*groan*

SilverFire

"Staring into the dragon's jaw, one quickly learns wisdom"


"Jhereg"

Stevne Brust
Message no. 23
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: Dragon breath
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 17:36:00 GMT
on 28.08.97 dbuehrer@****.ORG wrote:

d> So, a Greater Dragon with an Essence of 12 can affect a 12m x 12m
d> area at a range of 144m with a base damage of 12M. He can sustain
d> the attack, but faces a 10S drain. Use the optional
d> grenade/explosion rule from the SRC and you're rolling 6 dice vs a 4
d> to stage up the damage, which on average will go up to a 12S
d> (remember, no ballistic armor). And although the runners will likely
d> survive the first blast, they'll find themselves in the middle of a
d> 12m x 12m inferno as every thing around them ignites. If they don't
d> have some source of oxygen they are in serious trouble. And make
d> sure to check to see what equipment survives.

<The Mask>
*Smokin'!!*
</The Mask>

Tobias
Message no. 24
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Dragon breath -Reply
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 23:34:16 -0700
---David Buehrer wrote:
>

> I threw in the comment about the grenade rules because I wasn't sure
> if you could attack individuals with an area affect attack. You can
> go by the letter of the rules and do it, but I wasn't sure about the
> intention. However, I would rule that the dragon *does* role
> reaction to stage damage with extra successes meaning that the dragon
> increased the intensity. So, Reaction vs a 4, modified by cover only
> (it's an area, perception modifiers and movement aren't going to
> help).

Handle it just like an AOE Damaging Manip spell w/ elemental effects
of fire. Just roll Reaction to stage up damage, rather than a
spellcasting test. Simple enough.

===
@>--,--'--- Loki

Fearless Leader of the Shadowrun Trading Card Game Mailing List
Web Page: Poisoned Elves at www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/

"You're calling me Bitch like it's a bad thing."
--> CrapGame during the Drive in the Country tournament
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Message no. 25
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Dragon breath -Reply
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 23:41:18 -0700
---Mike Elkins wrote:
>
> >I threw in the comment about the grenade rules
> >because I wasn't sure if you could attack
> >individuals with an area affect attack.
>
> IMHO, the dragon would have to split his reaction
> dice between multiple targets, but he could do so
> however he wanted. I think that works out pretty
> well.

Why? A mage lobbing an AOE Damaging Manip spell doesn't have to split
dice up among the various targets in his area of effect.

-== Loki ==-

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