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Message no. 1
From: Scott Pyle <spyle@***.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Dragon PCs?
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 1995 14:31:51 -0400
Has anyone ever done anything with Dragon pcs in SRII? My
conception of it would be a lesser dragon capable of assuming human or
metahuman form, with physical attributes slightly superior to a troll's,
certain innate powers like Regeneration and Shapechange, possibly Energy
Projection (breath weapon only in Dragon form) and certainly some kind of
Dermal Armor.
A couple of years ago I wrote FASA about this concept, and they
were pretty adamant in their negative reply to my suggestion of doing
something official using the dragon character.
Anybody have any comments or suggestions?

Scott
Message no. 2
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@****.INFORMATIK.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Dragon PCs?
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 1995 19:40:16 +0100
Scott wrote:
> Has anyone ever done anything with Dragon pcs in SRII? My
> conception of it would be a lesser dragon capable of assuming human or
> metahuman form, with physical attributes slightly superior to a troll's,
> certain innate powers like Regeneration and Shapechange, possibly Energy
> Projection (breath weapon only in Dragon form) and certainly some kind of
> Dermal Armor.
Waaaaaaaaaaah!
Horrible thought!!!!
How would you balance such a character? Race: Dragon as priority A, Magic
Powers (Shapechange, Masking) as Priority B... and then? Pr. C for "active"
magic? How to modify stats? Do you have a player who can "think alien"?
Since Dragons are _not_ human, they probably wouldn't think like
(meta)humans...

Sascha
--
+---___---------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | The one does not |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de |learn from history|
| \___ __/ | or | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| Westerstr. 20 / 26121 Oldenburg | through it again.|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| *Wearing hats is just a way of live* | |
+---------------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
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| deal out death in judgement. -- Gandalf |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 3
From: Scott Pyle <spyle@***.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dragon PCs?
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 1995 17:01:16 -0400
On Sat, 21 Oct 1995, Sascha Pabst wrote:

> Scott wrote:
> > Has anyone ever done anything with Dragon pcs in SRII? My
> > conception of it would be a lesser dragon capable of assuming human or
> > metahuman form, with physical attributes slightly superior to a troll's,
> > certain innate powers like Regeneration and Shapechange, possibly Energy
> > Projection (breath weapon only in Dragon form) and certainly some kind of
> > Dermal Armor.
> Waaaaaaaaaaah!
> Horrible thought!!!!
> How would you balance such a character? Race: Dragon as priority A, Magic
> Powers (Shapechange, Masking) as Priority B... and then? Pr. C for "active"
> magic? How to modify stats? Do you have a player who can "think alien"?
> Since Dragons are _not_ human, they probably wouldn't think like
> (meta)humans...
Wow, you took that one kind of personally. Yeesh! I think that
yes indeed it would require some tinkering, but it certainly isn't out of
the realm of possibility for an advanaced role player to successfully
play a dragon.
Come on, like playing a troll Bear Shaman who can hurl fire balls
and commune with powerful spirits isn't a stretch?
Point taken on the priorities thing, though. You'd probably need
several more letters of the alphabet to really cover all of a dragon's
considerable attributes and powers. But how about a dragon stuck forever
in human form, forced to adapt to his human form and the knowledge that
he is denied his immortal legacy? He might retain some of the powers of
his mighty heritage, but still only be a shadow of his former self. And
who but the most perceptive of magicians would believe him?
Now there's an oppurtunity for some role playing.

Scott
Message no. 4
From: "John W. Carter" <scarterjw@****.TRISTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dragon PCs?
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 1995 16:07:06 -0500
>> Scott wrote:
>> > Has anyone ever done anything with Dragon pcs in SRII? My
>> > conception of it would be a lesser dragon capable of assuming human or
>> > metahuman form, with physical attributes slightly superior to a troll's,
>> > certain innate powers like Regeneration and Shapechange, possibly Energy
>> > Projection (breath weapon only in Dragon form) and certainly some kind of
>> > Dermal Armor.
>> Waaaaaaaaaaah!
>> Horrible thought!!!!
>> How would you balance such a character? Race: Dragon as priority A, Magic
>> Powers (Shapechange, Masking) as Priority B... and then? Pr. C for
"active"
>> magic? How to modify stats? Do you have a player who can "think alien"?
>> Since Dragons are _not_ human, they probably wouldn't think like
>> (meta)humans...
> Wow, you took that one kind of personally. Yeesh! I think that
>yes indeed it would require some tinkering, but it certainly isn't out of
>the realm of possibility for an advanaced role player to successfully
>play a dragon.

Advanced roleplayers can roleplay just fine with what's available. No need
to throw in a concept that munchkins can pounce upon (and, yes, that's who
would be attracted to this concept first.

> Come on, like playing a troll Bear Shaman who can hurl fire balls
>and commune with powerful spirits isn't a stretch?

No, it isn't. Do you have something against trolls or something? A troll
can be just a good of a magician as a human. May take him longer, but
there's nothing wrong with the scenario you just described. A dragon PC
on the other hand is pushing the envelope.. into the shredder.

> Point taken on the priorities thing, though. You'd probably need
>several more letters of the alphabet to really cover all of a dragon's
>considerable attributes and powers. But how about a dragon stuck forever
>in human form, forced to adapt to his human form and the knowledge that
>he is denied his immortal legacy? He might retain some of the powers of
>his mighty heritage, but still only be a shadow of his former self. And
>who but the most perceptive of magicians would believe him?

YOu're trying to justify giving PC's more power than they really should have.
I and any sane GM can see why FASA vehemently nixed your proposal: too
much power!!! If PC's can't survive with what they have, you may be throwing
too much at them. They are only (meta)human, after all.

>Scott

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Message no. 5
From: Xyphius <natc@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Dragon PCs?
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 1995 23:10:48 -0400
Dragons are only overpriviledged PCs but there can be ways to work around
this. They should oviously have Race first and then magic but that isn't
really reallilistic concidering that dragons aren't going to have low
attributes. The logical way to compensate for this is to bost the natural
advantiges but that only lowers the amount of roleplaying needed to play
the character by confining them to a small spectum of varience. Not all
dragon characters are going to be super strong, super smart, super body,
etc. characters. To add a bit of realilism to the game I porpose a
solution: All dragon characters get 7 extra attribute points to
distribute as normal. They also, because of their long lifespans have
probibly learned how to do many different things and have gained many
skills. How I pose to handle with this is to also give them 10 extra
skills but only to be distributed in skills which Dragons whould have
access to (no car or bike skills though). One thing though: They can
spend twice as many points to gain these skills but they are only for
when they are in human form (this is due to their lack of time in human
form because they would probibly be in their natural for more often). on
top of all this I think they should also have to gain twice as much karma
to advance something as normal. Please give me your feedback and flames
and whatever.

-Xyphius


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In my eyes Boiling heat
Indisposed Summer stench
In disguise as no one knows 'Neath the black the sky looks dead
Hides the face Call my name
Lies the snake Through the cream
The sun in my disgrace And I'll hear you scream again
-Soundgarden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 6
From: Michael Vinciguerra <DaStone1@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Dragon PCs?
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 1995 23:59:39 -0400
Yea I like Xyphius' ideas I thin if you make it lie someone else (sorry dont
remember who) did the vampire player character. lie give race and magic
priority a and that means that there would not be a priority b or c, I think
that was how it went, but it wored out pretty well for fixing the vampire
characters. They had lots of powers, but they had crap for skills and
attributes to start. the dragon would have more powerful bodies, but why not
make their other powers gainable by initiation, like a physical adepts added
powers. *shrug* i think its doable by an experienced dm and player. obviously
it would need alot of fine tuning, and if anyone comes up with a viable way,
i'd love to se it.

The Stone One
Message no. 7
From: "S.F. Eley" <gt6877c@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dragon PCs?
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 1995 03:38:33 -0400
NO!!! No dragon PC's.

Step back for a moment and look at the discussion and the "solutions" that
are being proposed. "Let's just add 17 points to attribute and skill
points." "Let's give 'em some dermal armor." "This will all make it
more
realistic." Do you really consider all this PLAYABLE?

The Shadowrun character creation system was designed (or at least intended)
to be balanced overall.. If you want to play a mage, or metahuman, or
anything else that gives you considerable power, you have to make sacrifices
in other areas. This is to assure (at least in theory) that no starting
player character is intrinsically "better" than another starting character.
They all come from the same roots, and have to make the same choices.

Now you want to introduce a character type that is so far removed from the
common pool that the character creation process itself has to be SCALED UP
to accommodate it. Where's the sacrifice? Do you see what this does to game
balance? Do you realize what this does to other characters?

So you start the game. You're stronger than everyone. You have a better
Magic Rating than everyone. You're much less vulnerable than everyone. How
long will it be before everyone stops playing other character types totally
and picks up dragons? Who in their right mind would NOT pick up the
inherently better character type, particularly if everyone around them is
becoming more of a threat? And how do you explain all of these dragons
suddenly running the shadows in Seattle?

This concept departs radically from the principles laid out in Shadowrun.
You're tough, you're gritty, you're on the streets (or not far above them)
scratching to make some nuyen and survive. If you start letting PC's play
dragons, you're departing from cyberpunk totally, and moving into very high
(and very unplayable) fantasy. After dragons you'll soon wind up with PC
free spirits, PC immortal elves, and other ideas that totally throw out the
element of risk in the game.


You're welcome, of course, to play your own game in any style you like.
However, you now know my opinion of it.


Blessings,

_TNX._

--
Stephen F. Eley (-) gt6877c@*****.gatech.edu )-( Student Pagan Community
http://wc62.residence.gatech.edu| "I'll make the command easy to
My opinions are my opinions. | remember, like CTRL-ALT-F4-DEL."
Please don't blame anyone else. | - Dilbert (by Scott Adams)
Message no. 8
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Dragon PCs?
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 11:09:03 +0100
Scott Pyle said on 21 Oct 95...

> Has anyone ever done anything with Dragon pcs in SRII? My
> conception of it would be a lesser dragon capable of assuming human or
> metahuman form, with physical attributes slightly superior to a troll's,
> certain innate powers like Regeneration and Shapechange, possibly Energy
> Projection (breath weapon only in Dragon form) and certainly some kind of
> Dermal Armor.

This sort of thing could be done if you want, but be very careful about
it. For starters, I would _NOT_ make it a regular SR campaign -- it would
be set in the SR world, but I would not let the player-dragons be
shadowrunners and do the things shadowrunners do. As I was told about a
similar (sort of) proposal for another game (don't tell them, Martin :),
"(...) protagonists must be made distinct," in other words the players
must play _dragons_ and not humans-in-dragon-shape...

Apart from that little point :) why not?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Getting used to getting old but where is my ambition?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

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Message no. 9
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Dragon PCs?
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 11:09:03 +0100
John W. Carter said on 21 Oct 95...

> YOu're trying to justify giving PC's more power than they really should have.
> I and any sane GM can see why FASA vehemently nixed your proposal: too
> much power!!! If PC's can't survive with what they have, you may be throwing
> too much at them. They are only (meta)human, after all.

Whew! Uphold the Holy Game Balance(tm) and all that, eh? :)

The solution, IMnsHO would be as I said in another post -- don't make a
Shadowrun campaign with dragons, make a dragon campaign in Shadowrun. Let
the dragons run small corps, be at the hearts of conspiracies, hire
shadowrunners to do their dirty work, play two opponents against each
other, and so on, so the PC dragons get more powerful... Don't (let's
repeat that: DON'T) make them simple pawns that break into a building to
steal a chip for someone else. Let them be the one _receiving_ the chip
when all is done.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Getting used to getting old but where is my ambition?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

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Message no. 10
From: "St. Jean, Ricky" <stjeanr@*******.CANADOREC.ON.CA>
Subject: Re: Dragon PCs?
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 1995 15:38:00 PDT
Personally i love it. it has a lot of potential. have the Pc start out
small, and earn thier heritage. Who knows where dragons come from anyway.
They could be a physical adept or mage mage gains enough knowledge etc.
that a dragon counsel approaches him/her and offers the opportunity to
evolve into a dragon. They eveolve slowly through special rituals etc.
Like in **&* darksun. don't work on levels work with spending karma. 100
karma to start. Just an idea.



Ricky
"It's not a question of being paranoid, the question
is are you paranoid enough"
-strange days
<<<<<stjeanr@*******.CANADORE.ON.CA>>>>>
Message no. 11
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dragon PCs?
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 1995 19:55:47 -0400
On Sat, 21 Oct 1995, Scott Pyle wrote:

> Has anyone ever done anything with Dragon pcs in SRII?

As if vampire and shapeshifter PC's weren't bad enough...

> A couple of years ago I wrote FASA about this concept, and they
> were pretty adamant in their negative reply to my suggestion of doing
> something official using the dragon character.

I should say they were. And with good reason. How much more
munchkinous can you get? Not only do you have excess amounts of power to
contend with, but you have knowledge dating back to the 4th Age. Do you
realize how difficult that would be to play well? I can think of *very*
few people I would trust to play a character like that without munching
out. And even then, to keep that kind of a character in balance, you'd
need to be running a higher-power campaign than I'm willing to get
involved with.

> Anybody have any comments or suggestions?

Just one: don't do it.

Marc
Message no. 12
From: Ingmar Krusch <fastjack@******.ET-INF.FHO-EMDEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Dragon PCs?
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 14:13:36 +0100
I say :

KEPP VAMPIRES,SHAPESHIFTERS AND DRAGONS NPC ONLY !

whoof, feels much better now :)
IMO FASA is right with rejecting such proposals. These types were designed
to be npcs and would overpower most groups. (soory about screeming:)

Salve
Ingmar
--


*******************************************************************************

If you did it and you're still alive,
you've probably done it right !

-J. K. W., freelancer

*******************************************************************************
Message no. 13
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Dragon PCs?
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 13:24:31 +0000
On Fri, 22 Sep 1995, Gurth wrote:

> Whew! Uphold the Holy Game Balance(tm) and all that, eh? :)
>
> The solution, IMnsHO would be as I said in another post -- don't make a
> Shadowrun campaign with dragons, make a dragon campaign in Shadowrun. Let
> the dragons run small corps, be at the hearts of conspiracies, hire
> shadowrunners to do their dirty work, play two opponents against each
> other, and so on, so the PC dragons get more powerful... Don't (let's
> repeat that: DON'T) make them simple pawns that break into a building to
> steal a chip for someone else. Let them be the one _receiving_ the chip
> when all is done.
>
This is exactly how it should be done -well put sir!

But for those who are worrying about what priorities to assign I would
say don't bother. A player should only be allowed to play a dragon
occassionally -at GM discretion. It should not be a right but a
privelege bestowed upon only those who can roleplay it without being
munchkins.

Don't make dragons a character class or whatever, their creation should
be unique and stats should be decided upon by player and GM on an
individual basis -not to some chart or formula.

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
Shadowrun Web Site under construction at
http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html
Message no. 14
From: Terry Amburgey <xanth@****.UKY.EDU>
Subject: dragon pc's
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 14:46:23 -0400
Stephen wrote:
[why it's a bad idea deleted]

>You're welcome, of course, to play your own game in any style you like.
>However, you now know my opinion of it.

Ditto. It's a BAD idea. If you allow it, I suggest that you also allow pc's
to start as the CEO of a megacorp (priority A for resources) or as immortal
elf initiate mages from the 4th age (more metahumans option, priority A for
magic). My choice would be a skill level-67 techie along the lines of the
Dept. of Water guy in the 'Striper return's' novel (priority A skills). If
you're gonna create munchkins, you might as well have a wide variety of
them. Terry
Terry L. Amburgey Office: 606-257-7726
Associate Professor Home: 606-224-0636
College of Business & Economics Fax: 606-257-3577
University of Kentucky
Lexington, KY 40506
Message no. 15
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: dragon pc's
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 19:33:09 +0000
On Mon, 23 Oct 1995, Terry Amburgey wrote:

> Ditto. It's a BAD idea. If you allow it, I suggest that you also allow pc's
> to start as the CEO of a megacorp (priority A for resources) or as immortal
> elf initiate mages from the 4th age (more metahumans option, priority A for
> magic). My choice would be a skill level-67 techie along the lines of the
> Dept. of Water guy in the 'Striper return's' novel (priority A skills). If
> you're gonna create munchkins, you might as well have a wide variety of
> them. Terry
I think you're being a little hard on the guy. The idea is sound, the
trouble starts when you begin assuming he's making it a character class
available to all, with priorities etc. As long as it fits in with the
type of game and there is some balance (for example for Vampire PCs
import WWGS's Vampire:tM) then I say its fine.

The idea is sound, its the execution that could prove disasterous.


The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
Shadowrun Web Site under construction at
http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html
Message no. 16
From: Terry Amburgey <xanth@****.UKY.EDU>
Subject: dragon pc's
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 17:32:13 -0400
The Digital Mage wrote:
>I think you're being a little hard on the guy. The idea is sound, the
>trouble starts when you begin assuming he's making it a character class
>available to all, with priorities etc. As long as it fits in with the
>type of game and there is some balance (for example for Vampire PCs
>import WWGS's Vampire:tM) then I say its fine.
>
>The idea is sound, its the execution that could prove disasterous.

I was too harsh. But for balance [to me it is HOLY :) ] all of the pc's have
to have access to something equivalent. If the dude next to me has a dragon
what the frag do I play? It has to be something equally studly, otherwise
the rest of us get to spend our game time watching 'the dragon' kicking butt
and taking names while we doodle on our character sheets.

It may be that someone REALLY wants to play a dragon pc just for the
roleplaying possibilities. Personally, I'm sceptical. [Actually, I'm a
munchkin and I assume the worst about others :) ]. Terry
Terry L. Amburgey Office: 606-257-7726
Associate Professor Home: 606-224-0636
College of Business & Economics Fax: 606-257-3577
University of Kentucky
Lexington, KY 40506
Message no. 17
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Dragon PCs?
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 17:20:32 GMT
> Has anyone ever done anything with Dragon pcs in SRII?

Well, one of my PCs discovered she was actually a Greater Feathered Serpent.
This was, I hasten to add, before she retired... magicians (she's a Coyote
shaman) get too powerful to be fun to play, and making her a Dragon seemed
to fit. Now she makes an excellent NPC and background character, although
I can't really imagine using her as a PC on a conventional run. OTOH she
makes an outstanding fixer: working for a Coyote-totem Dragon is an...
experience.

--
"When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him." <R.A. Lafferty>

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 18
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: dragon pc's
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 12:06:33 +0100
Terry Amburgey said on 23 Oct 95...

> I was too harsh. But for balance [to me it is HOLY :) ] all of the pc's have
> to have access to something equivalent. If the dude next to me has a dragon
> what the frag do I play? It has to be something equally studly, otherwise
> the rest of us get to spend our game time watching 'the dragon' kicking butt
> and taking names while we doodle on our character sheets.

Which is why I suggested not to make a regular SR campaign/adventure out
of such a situation, but one where the PCs are the ones on top instead of
at the bottom of the shadowrunning chain... It would probably be best with
people who are actually roleplayers with a good bit of experience behind
them, though :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
So what does it mean when your mind starts to stray?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

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Message no. 19
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Dragon PCs?
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 12:06:33 +0100
The Digital Mage said on 23 Oct 95...

> This is exactly how it should be done -well put sir!

Sir? Where? :)

> But for those who are worrying about what priorities to assign I would
> say don't bother. A player should only be allowed to play a dragon
> occassionally -at GM discretion.

You could make a campaign out of it, I think. If the players are up to it,
of course...

> It should not be a right but a
> privelege bestowed upon only those who can roleplay it without being
> munchkins.

Definitely.

> Don't make dragons a character class or whatever, their creation should
> be unique and stats should be decided upon by player and GM on an
> individual basis -not to some chart or formula.

Well, if you would make such a campaign you _would_ need some way of
devising the dragon's stats and skills and, most importantly, influence. I
won't attempt to give such a system (just yet :) because it would require
extensive thought, but IMO one should be available if you want to create
dragon PCs...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
So what does it mean when your mind starts to stray?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

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Message no. 20
From: Gallas William <gallas@**.EC-LYON.FR>
Subject: Re: Dragon PCs?
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 15:35:23 MET
>Paul Jonathan Adam:
>
>Well, one of my PCs discovered she was actually a Greater Feathered Serpent.
>This was, I hasten to add, before she retired... magicians (she's a Coyote
>shaman) get too powerful to be fun to play, and making her a Dragon seemed
>to fit. Now she makes an excellent NPC and background character, although
>I can't really imagine using her as a PC on a conventional run. OTOH she
>makes an outstanding fixer: working for a Coyote-totem Dragon is an...
>experience.

In my second campain, one of my players was an immortal elfe as was the sammie.
They didn't know it. The first had lost memory of his past and the second had
a new memory implanted. The sammie had a spell on him which was hiding him as
an elf (so he loked like human).
In fact, they were in a big ritual where only one of the two can survive...
Game balance was saved 'cause they had no memory of their past and so ween't
munchkin ones and I was able to introduce them in great plots.

-Cobra.
Message no. 21
From: Xyphius <natc@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Dragon PCs?
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 16:31:25 -0400
First I would like to thank you for flaming my message because I know it
needs alot of work if anyone were to ever use it in their runs.

Yes the dragons do start out VERY good compaired to the other characters
that might just be starting up but because of the slowed down
advancement, the normal characters will soon overtake the dragon PC
because first of all, it is harder for the dragon to advance as normal
and also it is proibly really hard for a dragon to get unnnatural
advancements (wired reflexes etc.) because there aren't many surgens out
there which can operate on a dragon and even if the dragon PC found
someone, he would lose his polymorphing abilities which probibly no one
would give up. Another thing: most people are probibly terrified by
dragons because there aren't all that many out there and they do lokk
kinda scarry. This might pose a rather nasty disadvantage when in dragon
form, but if the character decides to look human, he would still probibly
scare alot of people off with his superior strength and other stuff.

About your dragon population problem: just let only one dragon (or any
fantastic creature for that matter) PC be in your runs. Plus for all I
know, in someone else's runs, dragons could be just as common as
metahumans (I personaly would never do anything like this but hey, it
might happen). And about your cyberpunk/fanasy problem, Shadowrun is
already a little fantasy with dragons and elves and magic in the first
place. It is a little bit of both cyberpunk and fantasy mixed together
and I always think that if you can have an NPC of some special race, you
can probibly have a PC of the same race if you really put your mind to it
but be sure to ballence the race out.

While we are on the topic of ballence, who says that you must maintain a
ballence in your runs? Sure it might be a little bit easyer if ther is a
super character but if you have a good GM and know how to roleplay in the
least it will even out. One runner, for example, might have a horrible
grudge agenst the dragon characterand not listen to anything the dragon
says. Or there might be a dragon with some magical, degenerating disease
which causes him to be weak and frail. Or there might be a dragon
character who had been living as a hermit for the last thousand years and
knows nothing of modern technology.

I hope you like these sugestions and if you don't, feel free to mail me.

-Xyphius


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In my eyes Boiling heat
Indisposed Summer stench
In disguise as no one knows 'Neath the black the sky looks dead
Hides the face Call my name
Lies the snake Through the cream
The sun in my disgrace And I'll hear you scream again
-Soundgarden
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Message no. 22
From: The Cuckoo Clock <cukoo@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: dragon pc's
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 14:49:39 -0700
>Which is why I suggested not to make a regular SR campaign/adventure out
>of such a situation, but one where the PCs are the ones on top instead of
>at the bottom of the shadowrunning chain... It would probably be best with
>people who are actually roleplayers with a good bit of experience behind
>them, though :)

A GM with a lot of experience wouldn't hurt either, the concept would be
very interesting, maybe you could redo the race category of character
creation to include things like dragons at the top, vampires and such on a
lower level, and (meta) humans at the bottom. Other categories could be
re-worked to provide affiliations with organizations (or corps), magic,
contacts, access to facilities (like shadow clinics) etc...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"But what ... is it good for?"

-- Engineer at the Advanced Computing Systems Division of IBM,
1968, commenting on the microchip.
Message no. 23
From: The Cuckoo Clock <cukoo@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: dragon pc's
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 15:23:31 -0700
>>Which is why I suggested not to make a regular SR campaign/adventure out
>>of such a situation, but one where the PCs are the ones on top instead of
>>at the bottom of the shadowrunning chain... It would probably be best with
>>people who are actually roleplayers with a good bit of experience behind
>>them, though :)
>
>A GM with a lot of experience wouldn't hurt either, the concept would be
>very interesting, maybe you could redo the race category of character
>creation to include things like dragons at the top, vampires and such on a
>lower level, and (meta) humans at the bottom. Other categories could be
>re-worked to provide affiliations with organizations (or corps), magic,
>contacts, access to facilities (like shadow clinics) etc...

Or maybe you could minimize character creation on a personal level, making
character priority A have a better selection of priorities on a personal
level, ie. Character A (A, A, B, C) Character D (B, C, D, E) or something,
maybe the higher the priority, the more karma your individual character has.
This is assuming the game would be played on both levels, large and small
scale, when the PC gets involved. Character creation for the larger scale
would have categories like Character, Resources (Money), Organizations,
Contacts, etc...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"But what ... is it good for?"

-- Engineer at the Advanced Computing Systems Division of IBM,
1968, commenting on the microchip.
Message no. 24
From: Charles McKenzie <kilroy@**.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: dragon pc's
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 19:54:55 -0500
I've found that the best way to handle powerful characters is to throw
out the priority system entirely. It just bends things too far to put
dragons, vampires and shapeshifters on the same scale as other characters.
On that note, I don't make my players do hours of math with the
priorities either. They just have to come up with a character concept
and pick what would be appropriate. After all, how important and
unbalancing is it if one character has 3 more skill points or another has
30K more starting cash? As long as the characters are played well,
there's no point bickering over numbers to that degree.

This isn't to say that my players usually play super powered
characters. I just allow some of my players to play some of the "behind
the scenes" types. Like the just awakened Great Dragon or the Trueform
Insect Free Spirit. They're not the sort of character that gets sent on
a run to get Object X, they're the ones players get worried about when
I'm conspiring...er...talking with one player in another room.

Chuck (.sig incoming)
Message no. 25
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: dragon pc's
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 11:52:05 +0100
The Cuckoo Clock said on 24 Oct 95...

> A GM with a lot of experience wouldn't hurt either,

Naturally. Who in his right mind would run a dragon campaign with a GM who
has read through the rulebook once in his life? :)

> the concept would be
> very interesting, maybe you could redo the race category of character
> creation to include things like dragons at the top, vampires and such on a
> lower level, and (meta) humans at the bottom. Other categories could be
> re-worked to provide affiliations with organizations (or corps), magic,
> contacts, access to facilities (like shadow clinics) etc...

I think you'd need more than 5 categories. Let's see what I can come up
with at the moment...

- Race (speaks for itself)
- Attributes (this one too)
- Skills (ditto)
- Magic (again as before)
- Resources (as in SR2, but cannot be spent on contacts etc. -- see below)
- Corporate Affiliation (how big a corp you belong to)
- Other Contacts (contacts outside the corp; contact types should maybe
be divided into small fish, big fish, etc.)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
So what does it mean when your mind starts to stray?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

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Message no. 26
From: The Cuckoo Clock <cukoo@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: dragon pc's
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 17:31:04 -0700
>I think you'd need more than 5 categories. Let's see what I can come up
>with at the moment...
>
>- Race (speaks for itself)
>- Attributes (this one too)
>- Skills (ditto)
>- Magic (again as before)
>- Resources (as in SR2, but cannot be spent on contacts etc. -- see below)
>- Corporate Affiliation (how big a corp you belong to)

I think it would add interest if the affiliations were not necessarily corp.
Magical groups and Organized Crime could be possibilities too.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"But what ... is it good for?"

-- Engineer at the Advanced Computing Systems Division of IBM,
1968, commenting on the microchip.
Message no. 27
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: dragon pc's
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 12:43:23 +0100
The Cuckoo Clock said on 25 Oct 95...

> >- Corporate Affiliation (how big a corp you belong to)
>
> I think it would add interest if the affiliations were not necessarily corp.
> Magical groups and Organized Crime could be possibilities too.

Of course. As said those categories where what droped into my head at that
moment. Organized crime is very well possible, as could things like
sports organizations (anyone want a dragon running the FIFA? :), political
parties, and so on.

I'll try to work out the categories a bit right here and now, Again this
was written without giving too much thought to it all, so feel free to
comment on it :) And no, it hasn't been tested in any way. It's all on a
That Looks Good(tm)-basis.

There are 7 categories so there's 7 letters to assign...

- Race*
A: Great Dragon
B: Dragon
C: Metahuman
D: Human
E: Human
F: Human
G: Human

* I haven't yet worked out how to assign the attributes to dragons...

- Attributes
A: 48 points
B: 40 points
C: 30 points
D: 24 points
E: 20 points
F: 17 points
G: 15 points

- Skills
A: 58 points
B: 48 points
C: 40 points
D: 30 points
E: 24 points
F: 20 points
G: 17 points

- Magic
A: Magician
B: Magician
C: Adept
D: Adept
E: None
F: None
G: None

- Resources
A: 100,000,000 nuyen/200 Force
B: 65,000,000 nuyen/150 Force
C: 25,000,000 nuyen/100 Force
D: 5,000,000 nuyen/75 Force
E: 1,000,000 nuyen/50 Force
F: 500,000 nuyen/35 Force
G: 100,000 nuyen/25 Force

- Corporate Affiliation
A: First-tier megacorp or national government
B: Second-tier megacorp or major criminal organization (mafia, yakuza)
C: Third-tier megacorp or large political party
D: Other corporation or policlub
E: Other corporation or policlub
F: Street gang or go-gang
G: None

- Other Contacts*
A: 20 points
B: 15 points
C: 13 points
D: 10 points
E: 7 points
F: 5 points
G: 2 points

* Contacts are rated with points for the influence they have:
1 point: everyday people you meet on the street
2 points: low-level criminals (such as gangers or muggers),
corporate workers
3 points: shadowrunners, corporate officials
4 points: fixers, high-level criminals (such as yakuza bosses),
Mr. Johnsons
5 points: corporate CEOs, top-level criminals, national presidents, etc.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"You need us to get a life."
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

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Message no. 28
From: Michael Vinciguerra <DaStone1@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Dragon PC's
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 22:39:28 -0400
Well i thin that it would be very possible to have a dragon PC. The thing
that you would have to do is make their powers grow with the pl;ayers
experience, like for instance, the aror that a dragon gets, could be 1 for
every point of karma pool that they have, and they could start off with the
regular stats (same mental stats, cause probably the character has just
changed into a dragon, and there would probably be a pretty good increase in
strength and body, but not even close to a full size dragon. Who says that a
full grown human whose life is expressed in maybe a hundred years, willl
express into a full-grown dragon, that probably would have taen 500 years of
it's life to reach full grown maturity? As to the other powers, hey, make
them cost magic points as for a physical adept, and make them expensive, the
dragon will have a long time to study magic, and to reach maturity. This is
also the reason that a dragon PC will nnot have a magic attribute that is
higher than the other PC's, they will have studied magic for the same amount
of time. Maybe their magic rating goes up in the same manner as the armor
above, I don't now, but i think that it could work. The dragon just has to
be young and inexperienced, or at least as experienced as normal PC's are.
Think of it this way, a 1 week old baby, in the body of a man, probably
couldn't walk right away, cause he doesnt know how to, even though he has the
ability to run. He'd have to learn what his new body could do, then perfect
it. Lofwyrr has had a long time to learn and perfect.

Thans for
listening( or reading actually )
Feel free to flame
me, I love controversy.

The Stone One
(STONEWALL)

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