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From:	Bruce gyro@********.co.za
Subject:	Drain above D
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 08:49:09 +0200

Message no. 1 Hi

Just want to ask what you do when a magicker casts a D damage ManaBall
spell.

According to SR3 pg 181 the Drain is (Damage Level +1)

Does the caster then need to generate two successes just to bring the
damage down to D?

The same obviously applies to many other spells. Ball Lightning,
Fireball and Toxic Wave in particular. (+2)

Thanks
-- BRUCE <gyro@********.co.za>

<hard@****>

Theres nothing like a netfight
Everything is True
Nothing is Forbidden

-- BRUCE <gyro@********.co.za>

<hard@****>

Theres nothing like a netfight
Everything is True
Nothing is Forbidden

From:	GMPax@*.com GMPax@*.com
Subject:	Drain above D
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 02:00:38 EST

Message no. 2 In a message dated 3/11/99 1:52:07 AM Eastern Standard Time,
gyro@********.co.za writes:

> Hi
>
> Just want to ask what you do when a magicker casts a D damage ManaBall
> spell.
>
> According to SR3 pg 181 the Drain is (Damage Level +1)
>
> Does the caster then need to generate two successes just to bring the
> damage down to D?
>
> The same obviously applies to many other spells. Ball Lightning,
> Fireball and Toxic Wave in particular. (+2)

Well, IMHO, there are two possible answers. Either the spell CANNOT be cast
at so high a damage level as to cause D drain, or YES, you can suffer drain
beyond D.

I prefer the latter option; the odds of passing out COLD are hgih enough to
balance any enhanced utility the spells gain.

:-)

Sean
GM Pax

From:	Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject:	Drain above D
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 03:04:05 -0400

Message no. 3 "And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Bruce."
] Just want to ask what you do when a magicker casts a D damage ManaBall
] spell.
]
] According to SR3 pg 181 the Drain is (Damage Level +1)

The Grimoire, 2nd Ed. has rules on creating spells. When
calculating what the Drain Code for a new spell is, it has
tables that say "if the spell does A, add one Drain Level.
If it does B, subtract 2 Drain Levels, etc." When the Drain
Level exceeds Deadly in this circumstance, the book says
to add 2 to the Power of the Drain for every Level above
Deadly Drain.
I'd apply the same ruling...if you casted a Deadly Damage
spell, the Power of the Drain would go up by 2. Sound
right?

-Murder of One

From:	Bruce gyro@********.co.za
Subject:	Drain above D
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 11:22:24 +0200

Message no. 4 -----Original Message-----
From: Scott Wheelock <iscottw@*****.nb.ca>
To: shadowrn@*********.org <shadowrn@*********.org>
Date: 11 March 1999 09:07
Subject: Re: Drain above D

>"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Bruce."
>] Just want to ask what you do when a magicker casts a D damage
ManaBall
>] spell.
>]
>] According to SR3 pg 181 the Drain is (Damage Level +1)
>
> The Grimoire, 2nd Ed. has rules on creating spells. When
>calculating what the Drain Code for a new spell is, it has
>tables that say "if the spell does A, add one Drain Level.
>If it does B, subtract 2 Drain Levels, etc." When the Drain
>Level exceeds Deadly in this circumstance, the book says
>to add 2 to the Power of the Drain for every Level above
>Deadly Drain.
> I'd apply the same ruling...if you casted a Deadly Damage
>spell, the Power of the Drain would go up by 2. Sound
>right?

That sounds perfect. I'll apply that. Thanks a ton

-- BRUCE <gyro@********.co.za>

<hard@****>

Theres nothing like a netfight
Everything is True
Nothing is Forbidden

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	Drain above D
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 12:15:56 +0100

Message no. 5 According to Bruce, at 8:49 on 11 Mar 99, the word on
the street was...

> According to SR3 pg 181 the Drain is (Damage Level +1)
>
> Does the caster then need to generate two successes just to bring the
> damage down to D?
>
> The same obviously applies to many other spells. Ball Lightning,
> Fireball and Toxic Wave in particular. (+2)

BTB, you add +2 to the Drain Target for every level over Deadly. So, a
Force 6 Mana Bolt (Deadly) would cause 5D drain, not 3(D+1).

However, if you use some kind of overdamage rules, you could apply these
to drain as well; for example, I start at Light again if damage goes over
Deadly, so a Mana Bolt at Deadly damage causes 3(D+L) drain, or 11 boxes,
in my campaign. Toxic Wave (Deadly) would be Deadly+Moderate ( boxes).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Hoera, we leven nog!
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Bruce gyro@********.co.za
Subject:	Drain above D
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 14:09:42 +0200

Message no. 6 -----Original Message-----
From: Gurth <gurth@******.nl>
To: shadowrn@*********.org <shadowrn@*********.org>
Date: 11 March 1999 01:20
Subject: Re: Drain above D

According to Bruce, at 8:49 on 11 Mar 99, the word on
the street was...

> According to SR3 pg 181 the Drain is (Damage Level +1)
>
> Does the caster then need to generate two successes just to bring
the
> damage down to D?
>
> The same obviously applies to many other spells. Ball Lightning,
> Fireball and Toxic Wave in particular. (+2)

BTB, you add +2 to the Drain Target for every level over Deadly. So, a
Force 6 Mana Bolt (Deadly) would cause 5D drain, not 3(D+1).

However, if you use some kind of overdamage rules, you could apply
these
to drain as well; for example, I start at Light again if damage goes
over
Deadly, so a Mana Bolt at Deadly damage causes 3(D+L) drain, or 11
boxes,
in my campaign. Toxic Wave (Deadly) would be Deadly+Moderate (
boxes).

REPLY
Those arrow thingies are gone for good it seems

Using that system the first pair of success would only remove 1 box
of damage while the nest two would remove four boxes. Right? Sounds
like a problem to me.....

Thoughts?
-- BRUCE <gyro@********.co.za>

<hard@****>

Theres nothing like a netfight
Everything is True
Nothing is Forbidden

From:	dghost@**.com dghost@**.com
Subject:	Drain above D
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 08:42:34 -0600

Message no. 7 On Thu, 11 Mar 1999 03:04:05 -0400 Scott Wheelock <iscottw@*****.nb.ca>
writes:
>"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Bruce."
>] Just want to ask what you do when a magicker casts a D damage ManaBall
>] spell.
>]
>] According to SR3 pg 181 the Drain is (Damage Level +1)

<SNIP [Note: "the book" below is the 2nd Ed Grimoire]>
>When the Drain
>Level exceeds Deadly in this circumstance, the book says
>to add 2 to the Power of the Drain for every Level above
>Deadly Drain.
<SNIP>

I thought about that but then remembered a more recent reference to
adjusting the damage above deadly. In Rigger2, doesn't it say that if
something increases the damage level of your weapon beyond deadly (ie,
from FA firing.), double the power of the weapon (per level beyond
deadly?)?

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"You, you're like a spoonful of whoopass." --Grace
"A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire (2nd
Edition)

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From:	Protokol13 Protokol13@********.com
Subject:	Drain above D
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 10:21:48 -0500

Message no. 8 Scott Wheelock wrote:

> The Grimoire, 2nd Ed. has rules on creating spells. When
> calculating what the Drain Code for a new spell is, it has
> tables that say "if the spell does A, add one Drain Level.
> If it does B, subtract 2 Drain Levels, etc." When the Drain
> Level exceeds Deadly in this circumstance, the book says
> to add 2 to the Power of the Drain for every Level above
> Deadly Drain.
> I'd apply the same ruling...if you casted a Deadly Damage
> spell, the Power of the Drain would go up by 2. Sound
> right?
>

Actually on page 191 of SR3 right above the bold "Combat Spells" it says
exactly that. So adding +2 to the numerical component of the drain is
correct.
(In case anyone was wondering if that info was only in the 2nd Grimore)

--
-=PrOtoKol13=-
ICQ: 17589925

From:	GMPax@*.com GMPax@*.com
Subject:	Drain above D
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 13:09:01 EST

Message no. 9 In a message dated 3/11/99 6:16:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, gurth@******.nl
writes:

> However, if you use some kind of overdamage rules, you could apply these
> to drain as well; for example, I start at Light again if damage goes over
> Deadly, so a Mana Bolt at Deadly damage causes 3(D+L) drain, or 11 boxes,
> in my campaign. Toxic Wave (Deadly) would be Deadly+Moderate ( boxes).

Alternately, you could have the next L/M/S/D series be PHYSICAL drain. <g>

Sean
GM Pax

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	Drain above D
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 19:18:26 +0100

Message no. 10 According to Bruce, at 14:09 on 11 Mar 99, the word on
the street was...

> > However, if you use some kind of overdamage rules, you could apply these
> > to drain as well; for example, I start at Light again if damage goes over
> > Deadly, so a Mana Bolt at Deadly damage causes 3(D+L) drain, or 11 boxes,
> > in my campaign. Toxic Wave (Deadly) would be Deadly+Moderate ( boxes).
>
> Those arrow thingies are gone for good it seems

Some mailers seem to have trouble addin those to replies to my posts, for
a reason I've never really figured out. Anyway, on to the business of the
day:

> Using that system the first pair of success would only remove 1 box
> of damage while the nest two would remove four boxes. Right? Sounds
> like a problem to me.....

The way my overdamage house rules work are very simply that every two
successes stage up or down the damage by one level; thus, if you take
Deadly+Moderate damage and roll two successes on your resistance test, you
get Deadly+Light = 11 boxes.

In other words, the progression goes:

Light (1 box) }
Moderate (3 boxes) } these four we're all familiar with, I hope
Serious (6 boxes) }
Deadly (10 boxes) }
Deadly+Light (11 boxes)
Deadly+Moderate (13 boxes)
Deadly+Serious (16 boxes)
2x Deadly (20 boxes)
2x Deadly+Light (21 boxes)
and so on as high as the number of successes warrants.

(For the record, I believe the highest any damage ever got staged up was
to 2x Deadly, for a weapon that IIRC caused Serious damage as base.)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Hoera, we leven nog!
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject:	Drain above D
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 13:26:28 -0500 (EST)

Message no. 11 On Thu, 11 Mar 1999 GMPax@***.com wrote:

> > However, if you use some kind of overdamage rules, you could apply these
> > to drain as well; for example, I start at Light again if damage goes over
> > Deadly, so a Mana Bolt at Deadly damage causes 3(D+L) drain, or 11 boxes,
> > in my campaign. Toxic Wave (Deadly) would be Deadly+Moderate ( boxes).

I use the same rule Gurth does.

> Alternately, you could have the next L/M/S/D series be PHYSICAL drain. <g>

This is too easy on the Magician IMHO. I'd love to trade
Deadly stun for Light physical, especially since physical drain can
be healed. Besides, if you inflict 13 boxes of stun damage on someone,
you not only give them a moderate wound but also knock them out and
put them down for the count via the standard "wraparound" mechanic SR
already has built in.

Marc

From:	A Halliwell u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk
Subject:	Drain above D
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 18:29:43 +0000 (GMT)

Message no. 12 And verily, did Gurth hastily scribble thusly...
|In other words, the progression goes:
|
|Light (1 box) }
|Moderate (3 boxes) } these four we're all familiar with, I hope
|Serious (6 boxes) }
|Deadly (10 boxes) }
|Deadly+Light (11 boxes)
|Deadly+Moderate (13 boxes)
|Deadly+Serious (16 boxes)
|2x Deadly (20 boxes)
|2x Deadly+Light (21 boxes)
|and so on as high as the number of successes warrants.
|
|(For the record, I believe the highest any damage ever got staged up was
|to 2x Deadly, for a weapon that IIRC caused Serious damage as base.)

So, I take it that the extra boxes went on physical, did they?
(Nice to know some aspects of 1st Edition are surviving to this day.)

Also, wasn't there a rule that said, if you go to more than [1/2 body] boxes
above deadly physical, then you were dead, absolutely dead, shuffled off
this mortal coil and gone to meet your maker, dead....?

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |

From:	GMPax@*.com GMPax@*.com
Subject:	Drain above D
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 13:30:59 EST

Message no. 13 In a message dated 3/11/99 1:29:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, renouf@*****
int.com writes:

> > Alternately, you could have the next L/M/S/D series be PHYSICAL drain. <g>
>
> This is too easy on the Magician IMHO. I'd love to trade
> Deadly stun for Light physical, especially since physical drain can
> be healed. Besides, if you inflict 13 boxes of stun damage on someone,
> you not only give them a moderate wound but also knock them out and
> put them down for the count via the standard "wraparound" mechanic SR
> already has built in.
>
> Marc
>

No. I mean Deadly Stun -=AND=- Light Physical. Stage it down once, and you
dodge the L physical hurt but STILL get whacked with a D stun. Stage it down
twice, and you get whacked with an S stun.

OFC, this then interacts oddly with a Trauma Damper. Heh.

Sean
GM Pax

From:	Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject:	Drain above D
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 13:33:05 -0500 (EST)

Message no. 14 On Thu, 11 Mar 1999, Gurth wrote:

> (For the record, I believe the highest any damage ever got staged up was
> to 2x Deadly, for a weapon that IIRC caused Serious damage as base.)

Using the same system we had a guy inflict D + D + S, for a total
of 26 boxes of damage from a single burst from an Ingram Smartgun.
Needless to say, the target didn't resist.
Either way, though I much prefer this system to FASA's overdamage
system.

Marc

From:	Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject:	Drain above D
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 13:50:57 -0500 (EST)

Message no. 15 On Thu, 11 Mar 1999 GMPax@***.com wrote:

> No. I mean Deadly Stun -=AND=- Light Physical. Stage it down once, and you
> dodge the L physical hurt but STILL get whacked with a D stun. Stage it down
> twice, and you get whacked with an S stun.

Um, just a question. If that's what you meant, why are you
disagreeing with us? That's the *exact* same system we're talking about.

> OFC, this then interacts oddly with a Trauma Damper. Heh.

It certainly does. :)

Marc

From:	Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject:	Drain above D
Date:	Thu, 11 Mar 1999 14:00:36 -0500

Message no. 16 At 01:26 PM 3/11/99 , Marc Renouf wrote:
>> Alternately, you could have the next L/M/S/D series be PHYSICAL drain. <g>
>
> This is too easy on the Magician IMHO. I'd love to trade
>Deadly stun for Light physical, especially since physical drain can
>be healed. Besides, if you inflict 13 boxes of stun damage on someone,
>you not only give them a moderate wound but also knock them out and
>put them down for the count via the standard "wraparound" mechanic SR
>already has built in.

Um, IIRC you cannot heal any damage caused my Drain other than by resting.
It says specifically that magical healing will not work on Drain. The
little story in the magic section has the punk mage casting too powerful a
spell in the astral and taking physical damage. Whne he and his master get
back to their bodies, the old guy goes to get the medkit and says something
to the effect of "if your stupid with magic you have to heal the long way"
or something like that.

Sommers

Insert witty quote here.

From:	Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject:	Drain above D
Date:	Fri, 12 Mar 1999 02:49:33 -0600

Message no. 17 :I thought about that but then remembered a more recent reference to
:adjusting the damage above deadly. In Rigger2, doesn't it say that if
:something increases the damage level of your weapon beyond deadly (ie,
:from FA firing.), double the power of the weapon (per level beyond
:deadly?)?
:
:--
:D. Ghost

Not that I recall ever seeing. There is an optional Overdamage rule
(first introduced in FOF, and included in Sr3) that if a weapons power is
greater than the targets body (or some multiple thereof- 1.5 in SR3, maybe
2 in FoF), every staging (2 extra attack successes) beyond Deadly results
in an extra box of damage.
Similar sounding math, but not the same idea at all- maybe you did see
something I completely missed.

Mongoose

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	Drain above D
Date:	Fri, 12 Mar 1999 11:31:13 +0100

Message no. 18 According to GMPax@***.com, at 13:09 on 11 Mar 99, the word on
the street was...

> > However, if you use some kind of overdamage rules, you could apply these
> > to drain as well; for example, I start at Light again if damage goes over
> > Deadly, so a Mana Bolt at Deadly damage causes 3(D+L) drain, or 11 boxes,
> > in my campaign. Toxic Wave (Deadly) would be Deadly+Moderate ( boxes).
>
> Alternately, you could have the next L/M/S/D series be PHYSICAL drain. <g>

Naturally. Any damage over 10 boxes Stun will go into Physical, so taking
(Deadly+Moderate) Stun damage, if you're totally unwounded, would result
in going KO _and_ getting a Moderate physical wound.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Hoera, we leven nog!
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	Drain above D
Date:	Fri, 12 Mar 1999 11:31:13 +0100

Message no. 19 According to A Halliwell, at 18:29 on 11 Mar 99, the word on
the street was...

> So, I take it that the extra boxes went on physical, did they?

Of course. All I did was expand how far you can stage damage (as normally
it stops at Deadly), all the other, normal, rules stay in effect.

> (Nice to know some aspects of 1st Edition are surviving to this day.)

Hey, I also use variable Staging figures for weapons, as per my article in
TSS-08 :)

> Also, wasn't there a rule that said, if you go to more than [1/2 body] boxes
> above deadly physical, then you were dead, absolutely dead, shuffled off
> this mortal coil and gone to meet your maker, dead....?

In SRII and SR3, the rule is that you absolutely die once you get more
physical damage than (10+Body) boxes, which is much easier to reach with
the house rules my group uses. I don't think SR1 had a rule like this,
though.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Hoera, we leven nog!
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Keldon Mor Keldon@********.net
Subject:	Drain above D
Date:	Sat, 13 Mar 1999 00:14:19 -0600

Message no. 20 >"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Bruce."
>] Just want to ask what you do when a magicker casts a D damage ManaBall
>] spell.
>]
>] According to SR3 pg 181 the Drain is (Damage Level +1)
>
> The Grimoire, 2nd Ed. has rules on creating spells. When
>calculating what the Drain Code for a new spell is, it has
>tables that say "if the spell does A, add one Drain Level.
>If it does B, subtract 2 Drain Levels, etc." When the Drain
>Level exceeds Deadly in this circumstance, the book says
>to add 2 to the Power of the Drain for every Level above
>Deadly Drain.
> I'd apply the same ruling...if you casted a Deadly Damage
>spell, the Power of the Drain would go up by 2. Sound
>right?
>

You are correct, if want to see it in print, Page 191, SR3 under Drain.
Spells it out for ya right there.
A Force 6 Deadly Manaball would be a 5D drain. not bad....

Peace,
Keldon Mor
Keldon@********.net
http://ww2.netnitco.net/users/keldon

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