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Message no. 1
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Driving Intiative
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 17:31:54 -0500
I was wondering if anyone has considering allowing normal Intiative
bonuses while driving? For example, a character with Wired 2 still gets
+4 reaction and +2 intiative dice. (the same char with a Vehicle Control
rig would only get +2/+1D6 while rigged.) IMO, the other bonuses for
having and using a vehicle control rig are already a significant
advantage over wired reflexes and I think that someone who boosts his/her
nervous system shouldn't loose that boost just because s/he gets in/on a
vehicle. As the rules stand, a char with Wired 3 has no advantage over
an otherwise identical character as soon as they step in a vehicle. IMO,
that makes no sense ...

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

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Message no. 2
From: NightRain <nightrain@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Driving Intiative
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 18:12:01 +1000
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shadowrun Discussion [mailto:SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET]On
> Behalf Of Alfredo B Alves
> Sent: Thursday, August 20, 1998 8:32 AM
>
>
> I was wondering if anyone has considering allowing normal Intiative
> bonuses while driving? For example, a character with Wired
> 2 still gets
> +4 reaction and +2 intiative dice. (the same char with a
> Vehicle Control
> rig would only get +2/+1D6 while rigged.)

That's exactly what I do. I thought is was a bit strange that wired
people slowed down when in a vehicle, so I just ignored that rule.

While I am on the subject of rigging though, in Rigger 2, there was a
rule that stated that no actions could take place before the phase
equal to the Riggers Open Ended driving test (or something like that
anyway). How has that changed in 3rd Ed? With the whole thing of
each person going once before initiatives get lowered, things just
don't work.

NightRain.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
| The universe is a big place, |
| and whatever happens, you will not be missed |
----------------------------------------------------------------------

http://nightrain.home.ml.org

EMAIL : nightrain@***.brisnet.org.au
: macey@***.brisnet.org.au
ICQ : 2587947
Message no. 3
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Driving Intiative
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 09:59:03 -0400
On Sat, 22 Aug 1998, NightRain wrote:

->> -----Original Message-----
->> From: Shadowrun Discussion [mailto:SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET]On
->> Behalf Of Alfredo B Alves
->> Sent: Thursday, August 20, 1998 8:32 AM
->
->While I am on the subject of rigging though, in Rigger 2, there was a
->rule that stated that no actions could take place before the phase
->equal to the Riggers Open Ended driving test (or something like that
->anyway). How has that changed in 3rd Ed? With the whole thing of
->each person going once before initiatives get lowered, things just
->don't work.

I justified it to my players by saying that until the phase
dsignated by the rigger's open ended test the characters were busy holding
on while the rigger was engaging in actions that no normal human being
would ever try to make a vehicle perform. When the Open Ended test came
around, the rigger had gotten things stabilized enough so the other
characters could do anything.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 4
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Driving Intiative
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 10:17:56 EDT
In a message dated 8/22/98 8:51:01 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US writes:

> ->While I am on the subject of rigging though, in Rigger 2, there was a
> ->rule that stated that no actions could take place before the phase
> ->equal to the Riggers Open Ended driving test (or something like that
> ->anyway). How has that changed in 3rd Ed? With the whole thing of
> ->each person going once before initiatives get lowered, things just
> ->don't work.
>
> I justified it to my players by saying that until the phase
> dsignated by the rigger's open ended test the characters were busy holding
> on while the rigger was engaging in actions that no normal human being
> would ever try to make a vehicle perform. When the Open Ended test came
> around, the rigger had gotten things stabilized enough so the other
> characters could do anything.

There is something though that I have been thinking of implementing, if a pc
has an action prior to the rigger, they can use this action to perform actions
which are not physically intense in nature (nor spellcasting). This would
include things like cybernetically performing Sensor tests, pulling a gun,
performing a BattleTac test (if you have a BTAC). For mages, things like
allocating Spell Defense dice, raising Initiate Shields, going into a
magically defensive posture (assensing would be allowed). Deckers, in the
matrix would be totally unaffected, unless the maneuver seriously screws up
their up-link that connects them into the matrix.

-Herc
------- The Best Mechanic you can ever have.
Message no. 5
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Driving Intiative
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 15:27:45 -0500
On Sat, 22 Aug 1998 18:12:01 +1000 NightRain
<nightrain@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU> writes:
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Shadowrun Discussion [mailto:SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET]On
>> Behalf Of Alfredo B Alves
>> Sent: Thursday, August 20, 1998 8:32 AM
>>
>>
>> I was wondering if anyone has considering allowing normal Intiative
>> bonuses while driving? For example, a character with Wired 2 still
gets
>> +4 reaction and +2 intiative dice. (the same char with a Vehicle
Control
>> rig would only get +2/+1D6 while rigged.)

>That's exactly what I do. I thought is was a bit strange that wired
>people slowed down when in a vehicle, so I just ignored that rule.
>
<SNIP>
>
>NightRain.
<SNIP>

I was thinking of changing the rules to that and saying that advantage of
a VCR is the mod to handling/rigged gunnery, the control pool, and
control many vehicles at once. That seems to be, IMO, on hell of a bonus
for a peice of `ware that is much cheaper than wired reflexes ...

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

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Message no. 6
From: NightRain <nightrain@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Driving Intiative
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 08:36:51 +1000
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shadowrun Discussion [mailto:SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET]On
> Behalf Of David Foster
> Sent: Saturday, August 22, 1998 11:59 PM
>
>
> I justified it to my players by saying that until the phase
> dsignated by the rigger's open ended test the characters
> were busy holding
> on while the rigger was engaging in actions that no normal
> human being
> would ever try to make a vehicle perform. When the Open
> Ended test came
> around, the rigger had gotten things stabilized enough so the other
> characters could do anything.

No, I was misunderstood. What I was meaning is how do those rules
work now that SR3 has changed the way initiative works (I don't own
SR3...yet).

In the old rules Mr Sam rolls a reaction of 18, the mage rolls a 12
and the rigger got driving test (or whatever it is) result of 13.
Leaving the riggers reactions out of it, in sr2 rules, the sam would
miss his first go, and have to wait until 13 until he could take it
(assuming he holds an action or something), and then the mage would go
on 12.

Under SR3 rules, everyone is meant to have a go, then initiatives are
dropped by 10, so using the example above, what exactly happens? If
the street sam got a 34 or something (obscene, but it's an example, so
bear with me). Using the rigger 2 rules in the first round of moves,
the mage would move on 12 while the sam sits around on 34. Next round
the mage moves again on 2 while the street sam on 24 still does not
move. Next round the mage is out of action, and the same has a 14, so
still misses a go. Last round, the sam gets a 4 and gets to move.
This is not how I think things are meant to work.

NightRain.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
| The universe is a big place, |
| and whatever happens, you will not be missed |
----------------------------------------------------------------------

http://nightrain.home.ml.org

EMAIL : nightrain@***.brisnet.org.au
: macey@***.brisnet.org.au
ICQ : 2587947
Message no. 7
From: Bai Shen <baishen@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Driving Intiative
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 20:30:55 -0400
> > I was wondering if anyone has considering allowing normal Intiative
> > bonuses while driving? For example, a character with Wired
> > 2 still gets
> > +4 reaction and +2 intiative dice. (the same char with a
> > Vehicle Control
> > rig would only get +2/+1D6 while rigged.)
> That's exactly what I do. I thought is was a bit strange that wired
> people slowed down when in a vehicle, so I just ignored that rule.

Actually, if you think about it, it does make a twisted sort of sense.
The human body can move very quickly do to it's small size and light
mass. As things get bigger and heavier, they react slower(compare a car
to a semi). As such, even though you may move quickly, the car can't
move as quickly. It also has to do with the fact that a riggers control
is more sensitive and faster.

> While I am on the subject of rigging though, in Rigger 2, there was a
> rule that stated that no actions could take place before the phase
> equal to the Riggers Open Ended driving test (or something like that
> anyway). How has that changed in 3rd Ed? With the whole thing of
> each person going once before initiatives get lowered, things just
> don't work.

It's still the same. You have to wait for the rigger to act before you
can.
--
Bai Shen
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
http://www.series2000.com/users/baishen
UIN 3543257 (Don't ask to join if you aren't going to send me anything.)
Message no. 8
From: Tarek Okail <Tarek_Okail@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Driving Intiative
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 23:44:11 -0400
>First initiative pass: Street sam goes on 34, rigger goes on 12, street
>sam loses action.

Your example is correct, as far as it goes. The street sam is
likely *holding his action* until the rigger takes his action. Meaning th=
at
the rigger goes on 12, and then the street sam goes on 11. The street sam=

can also choose to hold his action until the very end of the first
initiative pass.

Shadowmage
Message no. 9
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Driving Intiative
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 00:16:34 -0700
>Under SR3 rules, everyone is meant to have a go, then initiatives are
>dropped by 10, so using the example above, what exactly happens? If
>the street sam got a 34 or something (obscene, but it's an example, so
>bear with me). Using the rigger 2 rules in the first round of moves,
>the mage would move on 12 while the sam sits around on 34. Next round
>the mage moves again on 2 while the street sam on 24 still does not
>move. Next round the mage is out of action, and the same has a 14, so
>still misses a go. Last round, the sam gets a 4 and gets to move.
>This is not how I think things are meant to work.


I haven't read my BABY's rigging section yet,; is the open test still used
the same way? If so, I would say things are as above, but the samurai could,
IMO, "voluntarily reduce" his initiative to whatever needed to act in thee
first pass as early as possible (at 12).
The other alternative would be that he holds his action (on 34) and acts
when phase 12 (or whatever) first comes up, and then as normal after that. We
always played that characters who rolled higher than the riggers test were
indeed holding actions until the vehicle got in position / stopped shaking.
To me, this second option makes more sense; it enforces the "team play" aspect
of SR3 initiative and the "vehicle open test", but allows the fast folks all
their actions (which, in SR3, is not the overwhelming advantage it used to be,
IMO).

Mongoose
Message no. 10
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Driving Intiative
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 08:41:47 -0400
On Mon, 24 Aug 1998, Tarek Okail wrote:

->>First initiative pass: Street sam goes on 34, rigger goes on 12, street
->>sam loses action.
->
-> Your example is correct, as far as it goes. The street sam is
->likely *holding his action* until the rigger takes his action. Meaning that
->the rigger goes on 12, and then the street sam goes on 11. The street sam
->can also choose to hold his action until the very end of the first
->initiative pass.
->
->Shadowmage

IIRC, Rigger 2 said that those with higher initiatives that the
rigger's Open Test score cannot hold actions either. They just lose them.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 11
From: Tarek Okail <Tarek_Okail@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Driving Intiative
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 19:28:11 -0400
Fixer--

> IIRC, Rigger 2 said that those with higher initiatives that the
>rigger's Open Test score cannot hold actions either. They just lose
>them.

That was Rigger 2, under the SR2 initiative system. In SR3,
initiative has changed drastically. Even if the street sam cannot hold hi=
s
action on the first initiative pass until the rigger goes, he should then=

be able to act before the rigger does on the second initiative pass.

Shadowmage
Message no. 12
From: Sommers <sommers@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Driving Intiative
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 08:36:18 -0400
At 07:28 PM 8/25/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Fixer--
>
>> IIRC, Rigger 2 said that those with higher initiatives that the
>>rigger's Open Test score cannot hold actions either. They just lose
>>them.
>
> That was Rigger 2, under the SR2 initiative system. In SR3,
>initiative has changed drastically. Even if the street sam cannot hold his
>action on the first initiative pass until the rigger goes, he should then
>be able to act before the rigger does on the second initiative pass.
>
>Shadowmage

Look at the sourcebook updates in the back under Rigger 2. It specifically
states that under the initiative pass system noone can go before the
rigger. So for the high wire smaurai, he has to hold his action until after
the rigger and then goes from there. Sorry, don't have the book with me for
a page number but I just read it last night.

Sommers, BABY 932
"Hey, this is better than actually getting some work done."
Message no. 13
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Driving Intiative
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 20:14:48 -0500
On Wed, 26 Aug 1998 08:36:18 -0400 Sommers <sommers@*****.UMICH.EDU>
writes:
<SNIP>
>Look at the sourcebook updates in the back under Rigger 2. It
specifically
>states that under the initiative pass system noone can go before the
>rigger. So for the high wire smaurai, he has to hold his action until
after
>the rigger and then goes from there. Sorry, don't have the book with me
for
>a page number but I just read it last night.
>
>Sommers, BABY 932
>"Hey, this is better than actually getting some work done."

read it again. It says that the rigger goes first (among those in the
car) in the first phase but on subsequent phases, intiative proceeds
normally.

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

_____________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 14
From: Sommers <sommers@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Driving Intiative
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 12:18:31 -0400
At 08:14 PM 8/26/98 -0500, you wrote:
>On Wed, 26 Aug 1998 08:36:18 -0400 Sommers <sommers@*****.UMICH.EDU>
>writes:
><SNIP>
>>Look at the sourcebook updates in the back under Rigger 2. It
>specifically
>>states that under the initiative pass system noone can go before the
>>rigger. So for the high wire smaurai, he has to hold his action until
>after
>>the rigger and then goes from there. Sorry, don't have the book with me
>for
>>a page number but I just read it last night.
>>
>>Sommers, BABY 932
>>"Hey, this is better than actually getting some work done."
>
>read it again. It says that the rigger goes first (among those in the
>car) in the first phase but on subsequent phases, intiative proceeds
>normally.

Right, but doesn't it say under the Holding Actions section that once you
hold an action and then use it on a different phase of the iniative pass,
that you then go on that phase? So therefore the rigger would always go first.

Ex.

Sam has 27, Rigger has 24, Guard has 12

On 27, Sam holds his action.
On 24 Rigger guns the jeep towards the guard.
On 24 Sam fires a burst at the guard and hits him.
On 12 Guard tries to unholster his pistol.

On 14 Rigger runs over the guard.
On 14 (24-10 from hold action) Sam shoots at guard as they run him over.
On 2 Guard moans

On 4 Rigger lays rubber.
On 4 Sam starts smacking around kidnapped corp type.

Sommers, BABY 932
"Hey, this is better than actually getting some work done."
Message no. 15
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Driving Intiative
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 10:26:25 -0600
Sommers wrote:
/
/ >It says that the rigger goes first (among those in the
/ >car) in the first phase but on subsequent phases, intiative proceeds
/ >normally.
/
/ Right, but doesn't it say under the Holding Actions section that once you
/ hold an action and then use it on a different phase of the iniative pass,
/ that you then go on that phase? So therefore the rigger would always go first.
/
/ Ex.
/
/ Sam has 27, Rigger has 24, Guard has 12
/
/ On 27, Sam holds his action.
/ On 24 Rigger guns the jeep towards the guard.
/ On 24 Sam fires a burst at the guard and hits him.
/ On 12 Guard tries to unholster his pistol.
/
/ On 14 Rigger runs over the guard.
/ On 14 (24-10 from hold action) Sam shoots at guard as they run him over.
/ On 2 Guard moans
/
/ On 4 Rigger lays rubber.
/ On 4 Sam starts smacking around kidnapped corp type.

That would be:

First Pass

Rigger guns the jeep towards the guard.
Sam fires a burst at the guard and hits him.
Guard tries to unholster his pistol.
Everyone subtracts 10 from their initiative.

Second Pass

Sam shoots the guard.
Rigger runs over the guard.
Guard moans.
Everyone subtracts 10 from their initiative.

Third Pass

Sam starts smacking around kidnaped corp type.
Rigger lays rubber.
Sam and Rigger subtract 10 from their initiative and both of them are
out of actions.

There's no need for Sam to hold his action.

-David
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 16
From: Sommers <sommers@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Driving Intiative
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 13:03:58 -0400
At 10:26 AM 8/27/98 -0600, you wrote:

>That would be:
>
>First Pass
>
>Rigger guns the jeep towards the guard.
>Sam fires a burst at the guard and hits him.
>Guard tries to unholster his pistol.
>Everyone subtracts 10 from their initiative.

Okay, so we're in agreement at this point that Sam holds his action until
Rigger goes, then he gets to fire. But, from SR2 and I thought SR3, Sam has
to subtract 10 from the Initiative phase that he went on. Since he went on
24, and not 27, that gives him a 14.

>Second Pass
>
>Sam shoots the guard.
>Rigger runs over the guard.
>Guard moans.
>Everyone subtracts 10 from their initiative.

Now that I think of it, Rigger has already gone at this point, so anyone
with an action can now do something. If you subtract 10 from the phase that
you went on, that means that Sam and Rigger are tied. So either one could
potentially go first, depending on what the Reactions are.

>There's no need for Sam to hold his action.

I didn't think that Sam needs to hold his action in later rounds. But I'm
sure that it does state in the back of SR3 under Sourecbook updates that
anyone with a higher initiative than the rigger has to hold his action
until the rigger has gone.

Sommers, BABY 932
"Hey, this is better than actually getting some work done."
Message no. 17
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Driving Intiative
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 12:37:18 -0700
>> That was Rigger 2, under the SR2 initiative system. In SR3,
>>initiative has changed drastically. Even if the street sam cannot hold his
>>action on the first initiative pass until the rigger goes, he should then
>>be able to act before the rigger does on the second initiative pass.


SR3 explicitly answers this question. In the first initiative pass, no
passenger may act before the rigger (I.E. before his invite roll). They are
considered to be holding actions. The riggers open maneuver test result has
no effect on their actions.
So yes, a fast passenger might well act before his driver in the second
and subsequent passes.

Mongoose
Message no. 18
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Driving Intiative
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 12:56:36 -0600
Sommers wrote:
/
/ At 10:26 AM 8/27/98 -0600, you wrote:
/
/ >That would be:
/ >
/ >First Pass
/ >
/ >Rigger guns the jeep towards the guard.
/ >Sam fires a burst at the guard and hits him.
/ >Guard tries to unholster his pistol.
/ >Everyone subtracts 10 from their initiative.
/
/ Okay, so we're in agreement at this point that Sam holds his action until
/ Rigger goes, then he gets to fire. But, from SR2 and I thought SR3, Sam has
/ to subtract 10 from the Initiative phase that he went on. Since he went on
/ 24, and not 27, that gives him a 14.

Ah, you have a misunderstanding of SR3's initiative system.

Sam isn't acting on 24, he's acting on the first initiative pass. Just
because Rigger is acting first, this doesn't affect Sam's initiative.
In SR3 actions don't take place on phases, they take place on passes.

If Rigger chose to delay his action, and Sam went, then the Guard went,
and *then* Rigger decided to act (on the first pass) his initiative
would be unnaffected. Delaying your action does not reduce your
initiative to the point when you act.

Example (ignoring wound modifiers for the sake of the example)

First turn: Sam 27, Rigger 24, Guard 22.

First Pass

Rigger gets to act first because he is rigged and Sam is a passenger in
his vehicle. However, Rigger decides to delay his action.
Sam acts and shoots Guard.
Guard shoots back.
Rigger doesn't like it when his vehicle is shot at and decides to run
over Guard.
Rigger does not adjust his initiative. At this point his initiative is
still 24.

Now that everyone is done acting on the First Pass, everyone subtracts
10 from their initiative; Sam 17, Rigger 14, Guard 12.

Second Pass

Sam starts looking for other targets.
Rigger holds his action.
Guard, who somehow survived, struggles to his feet behind Rigger's
vehicle.
Everyone subtracts 10 from their initiative; Sam 7, Rigger 4, Guard 2.

Third Pass

Rigger uses his delayed action and pops it into reverse and runs over
Guard again.
Sam curses violently as he's thrown into the dashboard.
Guard is dead at this point and can't act.

-David
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 19
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Driving Intiative
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 17:10:56 -0500
On Thu, 27 Aug 1998 12:18:31 -0400 Sommers <sommers@*****.UMICH.EDU>
writes:
>At 08:14 PM 8/26/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>On Wed, 26 Aug 1998 08:36:18 -0400 Sommers <sommers@*****.UMICH.EDU>
>>writes:
>><SNIP>
<SNIP>
>>read it again. It says that the rigger goes first (among those in the
>>car) in the first phase but on subsequent phases, intiative proceeds
>>normally.
>
>Right, but doesn't it say under the Holding Actions section that once
you
>hold an action and then use it on a different phase of the iniative
pass,
>that you then go on that phase? So therefore the rigger would always go
first.
<SNIP Example>
>Sommers, BABY 932
>"Hey, this is better than actually getting some work done."

Page 103 BABY, "The character delaying an action in this manner does not
lose his original Intiative Score."

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

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Message no. 20
From: Alex van der Kleut <sommers@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Driving Intiative
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 08:18:51 -0400
At 05:10 PM 8/27/98 -0500, you wrote:

>Page 103 BABY, "The character delaying an action in this manner does not
>lose his original Intiative Score."
>
>D. Ghost
>(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
>o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

Thanks, this was the page reference that I missed.

Alex van der Kleut
System Specialist II
University of Michigan, Office of Development

Further Reading

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