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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Driving question
Date: Sat Sep 1 17:00:02 2001
Ok it's getting to the point where everyone's gonna think that I'm all for
making god shit and that's not the case....I've got an ongoing arguement
about the skill tests for driving and now that one of my players is using
the Rigger 3 to try to make a godmobile (basically a sports car that's built
to go as fast as you can possibly make it and still handle decently at that
speed)...he's got it up to going approximatly 550 and now I've got the
problem of imposing some kind of restriction on how often he could actually
use it if he can finish it within the rules and has the $ to buy it.
There's gotta be a way to do it via skill checks to deter him from doing it.
The way he's interpreting the rules on it is that if he's not going close to
the top speed for the car he doesn't need to worry about it. Any
suggestions (other than don't let him have it) on how to handle the
situation?

Derek
Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Chris Shaffer)
Subject: Driving question
Date: Sat Sep 1 18:15:00 2001
At 03:57 PM 9/1/2001, you wrote:
>There's gotta be a way to do it via skill checks to deter him from doing it.
>The way he's interpreting the rules on it is that if he's not going close to
>the top speed for the car he doesn't need to worry about it. Any
>suggestions (other than don't let him have it) on how to handle the
>situation?

SR3 p134 says "Any time a character attempts a difficult maneuver, however
- such as negotiating a hairpin turn at 100kph or jumping a Yamaha Rapier
over four lanes of rush-hour traffic - he or she must make a Driving Test
to determine success or failure."

550 meters per combat turn is 660 kph (300 mph). At that speed, driving
conditions are less than ideal, seeing how the roads and freeways were
designed for cars moving at 200 kph or slower - and the other vehicles
won't be moving that fast. All the GM has to say is "it's difficult to
drive that fast on the Seattle freeway" and a driving test is justified
(with appropriate modifiers for tight terrain and stressful situation -
note that stressful situation is 'gm discretion'). Or, you could tell him
"the road is completely blocked, let's take a look at the collision and
barrier rules." Also, the Star is perfectly willing to give tickets to
someone driving that fast - and they'll impound the car too.

Basically, his car is designed for driving on the salt flats, not in an
urban environment.

-----
ANGER OR HATE CAN BE A USEFUL MOTIVATING FORCE
--Jenny Holzer _Truisms_
Chris Shaffer chris@*****.net
http://www.uic.edu/~shaffer/
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Fenris F-e-n-r-i-s)
Subject: Driving question
Date: Sat Sep 1 19:45:01 2001
Also, just say that the car in itself is illegal as hell because it exceeds
safety restrictions or something. I'm sure they got some sort of
restrictions ( kind of like with some licenses they only allow you to drive
certain size engines )

_________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Dave Post)
Subject: Driving question
Date: Sat Sep 1 20:15:01 2001
At 11:41 PM 9/1/2001 +0000, you wrote:
>Also, just say that the car in itself is illegal as hell because it
>exceeds safety restrictions or something. I'm sure they got some sort of
>restrictions ( kind of like with some licenses they only allow you to
>drive certain size engines )

That doesn't really make sense, if you are trying to use present day
justification.

Think about it: today, there are plenty of cars, street legal cars, on the
road today that can double, and even triple the current speed limits here
in the US, even the most lenient (which I believe is 75 mph) My car, from
the factory, could do approximately 155mph from the factory( a Nissan 300ZX
Twin Turbo, for those interested) With a few completely legal
modifications, even with ones that meet California air standards and are
approved by the CARB board, the most difficult regulation board in the US,
my car can now do approx 180 mph, and the ONLY reason it can't go faster is
gear limitation (at ~180, in 5th gear, it is past redline).

Oh, and you don't need a special drivers license or anything to drive it.

Now, if you want to limit him from having such a car, I see no problem with
it. But try and do it in such a way that it makes sense.

Dave
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Driving question
Date: Sun Sep 2 07:45:01 2001
Derek Hyde writes:

> <snip God car>

<grin> Just don't mention to him that if he selects a diesel power plant, he
could probably break the sound barrier... <grin>

There are a couple of points to consider in this, in my opinion. Firstly,
having a car that can go at some phenomenal speed isn't _inherently_ wrong.
Most modern sports cars, as has been mentioned, can, with fully legal
modifications, easily do around 300 kph. If you want to skirt around
pollution, noise, weight, etc restrictions, then it'd probably be easy
enough to get them to do 400 kph.

The problem comes with finding a suitable road (or salt flat ;-)), to drive
at this sort of speed on. A decent driver in a good car that handles well
could probably do 300 kph on a freeway road, assuming that there was little
or no other traffic. (There are no speed limits in many parts of the Northern
Territory, and even though I wouldn't call the roads exactly top quality,
plenty of people certainly hoon around up there - one of my mates has a 1000
CC bike, and it reaches well over 100 kph in _1st_ gear ... it has 6
gears...) Under normal situations, you'd be lucky to get a car in a city up
to 200 kph, just because the roads have these things called "bends" in them,
and these annoying things called "other cars" on them, both of which
obstruct your "speed barrier here I come" rate of progression.

Unfortunately, the SR rules do not really reflect this sort of problem well.
In SR, terrain for driving and handling mods is represented by
classifications along the lines of "tight, normal, and open". There are
handling modifications for driving in each (something like -1 in open, +2 in
tight). But there are no speed indications. "Tight" SR terrain is, for
example, narrow inner city streets filled with rush hour traffic. Under
pretty much no circumstances would it be possible for a car to go faster
than about 30 kph in these circumstances, without serious risk of collision.
However, in SR, you can go 60 kph, so long as you make the Handling roll (at
+2), or you can go 600 kph, so long as you make the same Handling roll.

There are modifications for Crash Tests, based upon the drivers Reaction
times 20 (I think) compared to the vehicles speed. For every 20 mpt the
vehicles exceeds the drivers Reaction times 20, there is a +1 Handling
modifier to the Crash Test. OTOH, unless he'd been shot up, a good driver in
SR will never ever need to make a crash test, and can merrily cruise around
at 500 kph all he likes. This modifier, though, is a good starting point for
a little bit of rules modification. With a Reaction of 10, a driver could
safely drive at 200 mpt, but he'd ge a +1 to his Handling test for every 20
mpt above that. Its not in the rules, but it's reasonably sensible. OTOH, it
doesn't exactly cater for tight terrain very well, as going over about 100
kph in this type of terrain is going to be nigh on impossible.

My rigger player and I am trying to come up with some sensible SR vehicle
rules. Regarding handling, we've more or less decided to do these things:

* Remove the "stressful" and "in combat" modifiers. There isn't really
a
need to make a Handling test unless one of these situations is occurring
anyway, so having them is somewhat redundant. Maybe we'll add the "stressful"
modifier to every vehicles handling, and make the "in combat" modifier 1
point less.

* Remove the "large" and "very large" vehicle modifiers. Figure out
which
these vehicles are, and just make the chassis handling the appropriate
number of points higher.

* Apply a speed restriction to each terrain type. eg 30 mpt for tight, 100
mpt for normal, and 200 mpt for open. For every 20 mpt (20%?, Reaction x
3,5,10?, whatever) above this, there will be a +1 modifier.

We'll hash it out and see how it goes, and I'll post a version here when we
get it organised.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (sven)
Subject: Driving question
Date: Sun Sep 2 08:25:01 2001
Fenris F-e-n-r-i-s wrote:
>
> Also, just say that the car in itself is illegal as hell
> because it exceeds
> safety restrictions or something. I'm sure they got some sort of
> restrictions ( kind of like with some licenses they only
> allow you to drive certain size engines )

I'd say your right, but it depends on the setting your are using. Fi.
I've never seen a vehicle of one of my rigger players that was actual
legal and fitted all safety regulations! :)

Just my thoughts,

-sven ;)
--
Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (sven)
Subject: Driving question
Date: Sun Sep 2 08:40:01 2001
Derek Hyde wrote:
>
> speed for the car he doesn't need to worry about it. Any
> suggestions (other than don't let him have it) on how to
> handle the situation?

Most of the time I handle rigger/driving tests/situations in a more
cinematic way (as I tend to do with matrix/decking) only requiring a
limited number of tests and by having the player decide his actions upon
descriptions/situations.

Now if the players just hit a bank and their on the run in broad
daylight through crowded streets then I'll try to give them detailed
descriptions of what's going on.
Fi. you're turning down the street and see a couple of kids crossing and
their ... right in your drive way!; you chase down the long alley as it
suddenly comes to a sudden stop and you either can go right or left,
note it is a 90 degree curve though!; that patrol car is right behind
you and suddenly start losing ground,... a few 100 meters in front of
you you notice a road block;...

Given these detailed guidelines/descriptions should already trigger the
common sense of your player/rigger as not to go down these crowded lanes
at 300mph. If they do, give them target numbers to match the situation
and often I don't tend to set the TN that high, but in return require
multiple successes for a _clean getaway_.

Just my thoughts,

-sven ;)
--
Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Keith Duthie)
Subject: Driving question
Date: Mon Sep 3 00:20:01 2001
On Sat, 1 Sep 2001, Derek Hyde wrote:

> speed)...he's got it up to going approximatly 550 and now I've got the
> problem of imposing some kind of restriction on how often he could actually
> use it if he can finish it within the rules and has the $ to buy it.

Does the character have access to a vehicle facility and an appropriate
vehicle design skill? If not, you're the only one who should be doing
anything with the vehicle design section.

> There's gotta be a way to do it via skill checks to deter him from doing it.
> The way he's interpreting the rules on it is that if he's not going close to
> the top speed for the car he doesn't need to worry about it. Any
> suggestions (other than don't let him have it) on how to handle the
> situation?

Give him skill checks anytime he does anything that could be remotely
unsafe. Use the terrain and weather modifiers if they're appropriate.

Also note that if he's breaking the speed limit by that much, he should
either be caught by GridGuide, or if he's disabled the vehicle transponder
then he'll be noted as a suspicious vehicle. Even if he uses a transponder
library he'll be caught on GridGuide video. And if he's an idiot, he might
even forget to have the vehicle termination chip removed...

--
Madness takes its toll. Please have exact change ready.
http://users.albatross.co.nz/~psycho/ O- -><-
Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Driving question
Date: Wed Sep 5 07:30:00 2001
> <snip God car>
<my snippage>
>My rigger player and I am trying to come up with some sensible SR vehicle
>rules. Regarding handling, we've more or less decided to do these things:
>* Remove the "stressful" and "in combat" modifiers. There isn't
really a
>need to make a Handling test unless one of these situations is occurring
>anyway, so having them is somewhat redundant. Maybe we'll add the
"stressful"
>modifier to every vehicles handling, and make the "in combat" modifier 1
>point less.
>* Remove the "large" and "very large" vehicle modifiers. Figure
out which
>these vehicles are, and just make the chassis handling the appropriate
>number of points higher.
>* Apply a speed restriction to each terrain type. eg 30 mpt for tight, 100
>mpt for normal, and 200 mpt for open. For every 20 mpt (20%?, Reaction x
>3,5,10?, whatever) above this, there will be a +1 modifier.
>We'll hash it out and see how it goes, and I'll post a version here when we
>get it organised.

ok here's the only prob I see with those ideas....the removal of the large
and very large modifiers...if you do that then you'll be making it more
difficult for ANYONE to drive those vehicles (RV's big trucks, semi's and
the massive transport trucks) whereas the rules now make it harder for
people that aren't specialized in that style of vehicle. I'm not saying
that if you know how to drive a semi it's as easy as a mustang gt but I am
saying that if you know how to drive it it's a hell of a lot easier for you
than it would be for someone that's just good at driving.
Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Chris Shaffer)
Subject: Driving question
Date: Wed Sep 5 07:40:00 2001
> >* Remove the "large" and "very large" vehicle modifiers.
Figure out which
> >these vehicles are, and just make the chassis handling the appropriate
> >number of points higher.

[snip]

>ok here's the only prob I see with those ideas....the removal of the large
>and very large modifiers...if you do that then you'll be making it more
>difficult for ANYONE to drive those vehicles (RV's big trucks, semi's and
>the massive transport trucks) whereas the rules now make it harder for
>people that aren't specialized in that style of vehicle. I'm not saying
>that if you know how to drive a semi it's as easy as a mustang gt but I am
>saying that if you know how to drive it it's a hell of a lot easier for you
>than it would be for someone that's just good at driving.

By this reasoning, there should be small and very small modifiers. These
would affect the person who is specialized to drive a semi when they try to
drive an econo-car....


-----
MORALS ARE FOR LITTLE PEOPLE
--Jenny Holzer _Truisms_
Chris Shaffer chris@*****.net
http://www.uic.edu/~shaffer/
Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Driving question
Date: Wed Sep 5 11:15:01 2001
>> >* Remove the "large" and "very large" vehicle modifiers.
Figure out
which
>> >these vehicles are, and just make the chassis handling the appropriate
>> >number of points higher.

[snip]

>>ok here's the only prob I see with those ideas....the removal of the large
>>and very large modifiers...if you do that then you'll be making it more
>>difficult for ANYONE to drive those vehicles (RV's big trucks, semi's and
>>the massive transport trucks) whereas the rules now make it harder for
>>people that aren't specialized in that style of vehicle. I'm not saying
>>that if you know how to drive a semi it's as easy as a mustang gt but I am
>>saying that if you know how to drive it it's a hell of a lot easier for
you
>>than it would be for someone that's just good at driving.

>By this reasoning, there should be small and very small modifiers. These
>would affect the person who is specialized to drive a semi when they try to
>drive an econo-car....

actually I agree with that...there should be a modifier for going more than
one size in either direction if you're specialized in one type cause it's
just odd going from an 84 Trans Am to a 99 Geo Metro and then to a lifted 78
Bronco with huge mud tires....not only the difference in size of the vehicle
but also in how they handle and how mch power the engine's got

Derek
Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Driving question
Date: Sat Sep 8 02:00:02 2001
Derek Hyde writes:

> ok here's the only prob I see with those ideas....the removal of the large
> and very large modifiers...if you do that then you'll be making it more
> difficult for ANYONE to drive those vehicles (RV's big trucks, semi's and
> the massive transport trucks) whereas the rules now make it harder for
> people that aren't specialized in that style of vehicle. I'm not saying
> that if you know how to drive a semi it's as easy as a mustang gt but I am
> saying that if you know how to drive it it's a hell of a lot easier for you
> than it would be for someone that's just good at driving.

Well, I think that the idea of having them have a low Handling is just wrong
anyway. Truck drivers, as you say, are _specialised_ in driving these
vehicles, and are pretty darn good at it. This, in SR terms, means that they
have a skill breakdown something like:

Car 4 (Semi 8)

Thus, to them, a vehicle with a handling of 6 isn't too difficult to drive.

Rather than having "large" and "very large" vehicle handling
modifiers,
(which, logically, should then neccessitate "small" and "very small"
handling modifiers for people who are 'used' to driving larger vehicles), it
would be better for people to realise that such specialisation in vehicle
driving skills is better handled through the SR skill system.

A normal person who drives sedans might have a skill like:

Car 2 (Sedan 4)

For them, driving a sedan with a handling of 4 is quite easy. Driving a
truck with a handling of 6 is very difficult.

Someone who knows a bit of both (eg a farmer perhaps) might have just a
plain Car skill of 4. They can drive trucks OK (but not as good as a
professional), and they can drive sedans and stuff as well as a normal city
dwelling person.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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