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Message no. 1
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Drone Ideas
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 14:03:51 -0600 (MDT)
I just read an article about MIT's "RoboTuna". RobotTuna is robot version
of a tuna (duh) and is being built as part of a goal to create autonomous
underwater vehicles that can carry out long term missions, cuz currently
there isn't any way to do it with current propulsion systems and battery
technology (cost effectivly, cuz a nulcear reactor is to expensive).

After reading this I realized that ShadowRun doesn't have any underwater
drones <gasp>. A RoboOrca (tm) could be pretty fun. Or how about
RoboFlipper? <grin>

The article also mentioned a branch of science known as biomimesis, looking
towards nature in hope of mimicking it's efficience. If this science were
to advance in SR the possibility of advanced biomimetic drones could be a
reality. Imagine a humming bird scout drone - small, fast, extremely
maneuverable, with hover capabilities. What else could be mimicked?

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like
underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.html~~~~~~
Message no. 2
From: "Paolo (2) Falco" <Falco@****.it>
Subject: Re: Drone Ideas
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 16:24:11 +0000
On 7 Jun 96, David Buehrer wrote:

> I just read an article about MIT's "RoboTuna". RobotTuna is
> robot version of a tuna (duh) and is being built as part of a
> goal to create autonomous underwater vehicles that can carry
> out long term missions, cuz currently there isn't any way to do
> it with current propulsion systems and battery technology (cost
> effectivly, cuz a nulcear reactor is to expensive).
>
> After reading this I realized that ShadowRun doesn't have any
> underwater drones <gasp>. A RoboOrca (tm) could be pretty fun.
> Or how about RoboFlipper? <grin>

They're going to be in PuWa's part threeandahalf... :)
If ya got any ideas send me. Why not RoboSquid? Small and
efficient!

> The article also mentioned a branch of science known as
> biomimesis, looking towards nature in hope of mimicking it's
> efficience. If this science were to advance in SR the
> possibility of advanced biomimetic drones could be a reality.
> Imagine a humming bird scout drone - small, fast, extremely
> maneuverable, with hover capabilities. What else could be
> mimicked?

Size, fo one thing, WOULD HAVE to be mimicked. Nothing even
slightly bigger and heavier than a hummingbird can behave as a
hummingbird.

On the other hand, I have recently seen in a crappy program
about weapon systems a guy standing ina flying cylinder powered
by a small turbojet. Was it just fiction or was it true (it wa
spresented along the Apache helicopter so I guess it's true)?
any of you mil types out there know how advanced this tech is?
I think a personal flying transport would be a welcome addition
for patrols...
---------------------------------------------------------------
Paolo Falco | "Home is where the supper-dish is"
Ironbound Section | Snoopy
---------------------------------------------------------------
HTTP://www.polito.it/~walter/RollerBrawl/rollerbrawl.html
The Above Web Page Contains Gory Graphics And Fun For Skaters!
Message no. 3
From: Stephen Delear <shadow@***.com>
Subject: Re: Drone Ideas
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 18:47:30 -0500 (CDT)
On Sat, 8 Jun 1996, Paolo (2) Falco wrote:

> On 7 Jun 96, David Buehrer wrote:
>
> On the other hand, I have recently seen in a crappy program
> about weapon systems a guy standing ina flying cylinder powered
> by a small turbojet. Was it just fiction or was it true (it wa
> spresented along the Apache helicopter so I guess it's true)?
> any of you mil types out there know how advanced this tech is?
> I think a personal flying transport would be a welcome addition
> for patrols...

I belive there's a circa 1960 prototype of this hanging in the Smithsonian
as I remember it was never put into production. I could be wrong though.

Stephen


> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> Paolo Falco | "Home is where the supper-dish is"
> Ironbound Section | Snoopy
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> HTTP://www.polito.it/~walter/RollerBrawl/rollerbrawl.html
> The Above Web Page Contains Gory Graphics And Fun For Skaters!
>
Message no. 4
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: Drone Ideas
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 1996 12:02:50 -0600 (MDT)
Paolo wrote:
|
|On 7 Jun 96, David Buehrer wrote:
|
|> I just read an article about MIT's "RoboTuna". RobotTuna is
|> robot version of a tuna (duh) and is being built as part of a
|> goal to create autonomous underwater vehicles that can carry
|> out long term missions, cuz currently there isn't any way to do
|> it with current propulsion systems and battery technology (cost
|> effectivly, cuz a nulcear reactor is to expensive).
|>
|> After reading this I realized that ShadowRun doesn't have any
|> underwater drones <gasp>. A RoboOrca (tm) could be pretty fun.
|> Or how about RoboFlipper? <grin>
|
|They're going to be in PuWa's part threeandahalf... :)
|If ya got any ideas send me. Why not RoboSquid? Small and
|efficient!

Sounds great! Between various sizes of RoboTuna and RoboSquid you would
pretty much have all your bases covered. A mimetic flying fish could be fun
to.

|> The article also mentioned a branch of science known as
|> biomimesis, looking towards nature in hope of mimicking it's
|> efficience. If this science were to advance in SR the
|> possibility of advanced biomimetic drones could be a reality.
|> Imagine a humming bird scout drone - small, fast, extremely
|> maneuverable, with hover capabilities. What else could be
|> mimicked?
|
|Size, fo one thing, WOULD HAVE to be mimicked. Nothing even
|slightly bigger and heavier than a hummingbird can behave as a
|hummingbird.

Not necessarily true. Keep in mind that nature does what it does
without using the most optimum materials. Bones are made with calcium.
Think of how tough they would be if you replaced the calcium with an
advanced alloy. The hummingbird has the motion and aerodynamics figured
out to the letter, but it's not using the best materials available.
Reproduce the motion and aerodynamics with advanced, superstrong,
lightweight alloys and synthetic materials and it could be very
feasible to produce a large mimetic drone with the flight
characteristics of a hummingbird. We've allready done it with airplanes
to a certain extent. Airplane wings use the same physics as birds'
wings. Yet we've made planes that are larger than any winged critter
that nature has produced.

With SR technology I think it could happen. The only obstacle to
overcome would be to reduce the noise. I can hear a hummingbird within
50 feet when it's flying (not hovering). Think of how much noise a
large mimetic drone would make. Course, as a GM you could use that as
an advantage to build the suspense with your players.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like
underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.html~~~~~~
Message no. 5
From: "Paolo (2) Falco" <Falco@****.it>
Subject: Re: Drone Ideas
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 18:25:47 +0000
On 9 Jun 96, David Buehrer wrote:
> Paolo wrote:
> |On 7 Jun 96, David Buehrer wrote:
> |Size, fo one thing, WOULD HAVE to be mimicked.
> |Nothing even slightly bigger and heavier than a hummingbird
> |can behave as a hummingbird.
>
> Not necessarily true. Keep in mind that nature does what it
> does without using the most optimum materials. Bones are made
> with calcium. Think of how tough they would be if you replaced
> the calcium with an advanced alloy. The hummingbird has the
> motion and aerodynamics figured out to the letter, but it's not
> using the best materials available. Reproduce the motion and
> aerodynamics with advanced, superstrong, lightweight alloys and
> synthetic materials and it could be very feasible to produce a
> large mimetic drone with the flight characteristics of a
> hummingbird. We've allready done it with airplanes to a certain
> extent. Airplane wings use the same physics as birds' wings.
> Yet we've made planes that are larger than any winged critter
> that nature has produced.

I'm sorry but I have to contradict you, and rather firmly.
There is a whole branch of engineering which delas with "model
theory", i.e. the reason why a paper plane CANNOT fly if you
build it 25 metres across and an elephant falling from the same
heigth that an ant falls without any harm breaks all of his
legs... This is because things reproduced at a larger scale do
not necessarily behave as smaller things, and vice versa. And,
for another matter, nature usually DOES use the optimum
materials... If you only knew what kind of chemical, electrical
and mechanical activation processes regulate a "simple" thing
as a heartbeat... The ways nature deals with information
tarnsmission is incredible. I think this disparity and the fact
that man cannot reproduce the netural ways of tramnsmitting info
accounts for the essence loss due to cyberware...

> Think of how much noise a large mimetic drone would make.
> Course, as a GM you could use that as an advantage to build the
> suspense with your players.

Hehe... Neat idea. A large, noisy, but incredibly powerful
drone, so your players go YEEEK when they hear the noise of it.
I like it! :)
---------------------------------------------------------------
Paolo Falco | "Home is where the supper-dish is"
Ironbound Section | Snoopy
---------------------------------------------------------------
HTTP://www.polito.it/~walter/RollerBrawl/rollerbrawl.html
The Above Web Page Contains Gory Graphics And Fun For Skaters!
Message no. 6
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: Drone Ideas
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 12:07:26 -0600 (MDT)
Paolo wrote:
|
|On 9 Jun 96, David Buehrer wrote:
|> Paolo wrote:
[snip: Disagreement about possibility of making a drone that duplicates a
hummingbird. Paolo against, David for. David going on to argue that with
high tech metalurgy and synthetic materials it should be possible.]
|
|I'm sorry but I have to contradict you, and rather firmly.
|There is a whole branch of engineering which delas with "model
|theory", i.e. the reason why a paper plane CANNOT fly if you
|build it 25 metres across and an elephant falling from the same
|heigth that an ant falls without any harm breaks all of his
|legs... This is because things reproduced at a larger scale do
|not necessarily behave as smaller things, and vice versa.

Hmmm... Okay, I didn't take that into account. How about this though.
Could the basic principle be used on a larger scale? ie., could be
basic motion and flight *methods* of a hummingbird be used to propel a
mansized drone providing that you have the technology to do so
(materials, computer, software, and power)? I'm talking about changing
the wing size, wing camber and range of motion, along with the
aerodynamics of the drone. And even if you can't I still have an idea.
Make a robot humming bird the same size and weight and use it to inject
(using the convenient beak) the chemical of your choice into a target.

|And, for another matter, nature usually DOES use the optimum
|materials... If you only knew what kind of chemical, electrical and
|mechanical activation processes regulate a "simple" thing as a
|heartbeat... The ways nature deals with information transmission is
|incredible.

I won't argue that nature has done a wonderful job when it comes to the
brain (heck, we haven't even figured it out yet). But there are some
designs where we can do better using better materials.

|I think this disparity and the fact that man cannot reproduce the
|natural ways of transmitting info accounts for the essence loss due to
|cyberware...

Now that's a thought.

|> Think of how much noise a large mimetic drone would make.
|> Course, as a GM you could use that as an advantage to build the
|> suspense with your players.
|
|Hehe... Neat idea. A large, noisy, but incredibly powerful
|drone, so your players go YEEEK when they hear the noise of it.
|I like it! :)

I love using noise or glimpses as a harbringer of things to come. Like
the one time the characters were inside a building sneaking through the
halls and heard the whining noise of a rotory cannon cycling up to
speed from around the corner. Or the appearance of a shadow on the
ground next to theirs from a critter in the branches above them while
they were maneuvering through a copse of trees. And then there's your
basic screams and peals of distant thunder and the creeking of doors.
But one of my favorites is the wail of a Banshee's engines echoing off
the canyon walls. You've never seen a group of characters dig a hole
in the ground to hide in so fast.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like
underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.html~~~~~~
Message no. 7
From: wilsonpj@******.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Peter)
Subject: Re: Drone Ideas
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 20:35:02 -0600
David wrote:

>Paolo wrote:
>|
>|On 7 Jun 96, David Buehrer wrote:
>|>
>|> The article also mentioned a branch of science known as
>|> biomimesis, looking towards nature in hope of mimicking it's
>|> efficience. If this science were to advance in SR the
>|> possibility of advanced biomimetic drones could be a reality.
>|> Imagine a humming bird scout drone - small, fast, extremely
>|> maneuverable, with hover capabilities. What else could be
>|> mimicked?
>|
>|Size, fo one thing, WOULD HAVE to be mimicked. Nothing even
>|slightly bigger and heavier than a hummingbird can behave as a
>|hummingbird.
>
>Not necessarily true. Keep in mind that nature does what it does
>without using the most optimum materials. Bones are made with calcium.
>Think of how tough they would be if you replaced the calcium with an
>advanced alloy. The hummingbird has the motion and aerodynamics figured
>out to the letter, but it's not using the best materials available.
>Reproduce the motion and aerodynamics with advanced, superstrong,
>lightweight alloys and synthetic materials and it could be very
>feasible to produce a large mimetic drone with the flight
>characteristics of a hummingbird. We've allready done it with airplanes
>to a certain extent. Airplane wings use the same physics as birds'
>wings. Yet we've made planes that are larger than any winged critter
>that nature has produced.
>
>With SR technology I think it could happen. The only obstacle to
>overcome would be to reduce the noise. I can hear a hummingbird within
>50 feet when it's flying (not hovering). Think of how much noise a
>large mimetic drone would make. Course, as a GM you could use that as
>an advantage to build the suspense with your players.
>

It's not the strength of the materials that you have to wory about, it's the=
total mass of the object (bird or drone). A humming bird can change=
directions in a fraction of a second because it does mot have a lot of=
momentum to overcome. Increased mass will mean that you'll have to=
overcome more momentum in order to change directions while keeping the=
drone in the air.

Does any one have any more detailed information on the thrust needed to keep=
a hummingbird in flight, and the comparitive thrust needed for a larger dro=
ne?

Piatro
Message no. 8
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Drone Ideas
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 10:24:21 +0100
Peter said on 20:35/10 Jun 96...

> Does any one have any more detailed information on the thrust needed to
> keep a hummingbird in flight, and the comparitive thrust needed for a
> larger drone?

Thrust needed to stay in a hover is equal to the objects weight, isn't it?
(Not mass, but weight: weight is mass * gravity acceleration.)

Assuming no forces acting from the sides (wind), and all thrust is
directed downward. So, a 20 gram hummingbird (if that's what they weigh --
I have no idea, really) requires 20 grams of thrust, while a 7-ton elephant
needs 7 tons. The relative difference should then be equal to the relative
difference between their weights (a factor 350,000, in this case :)

If you want to move around, you're going to need more. Unless you also
want to move down, of course...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Then they've sold out and their music's cliche'
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 9
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.com>
Subject: Re: Drone Ideas -Reply
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 08:24:01 -0500
>Does any one have any more detailed information on the thrust needed to
>keep
>a hummingbird in flight, and the comparitive thrust needed for a larger drone?
>
>Piatro

No, but I do remember hearing that hummingbirds need to feed almost constantly
to maintain their metabolism. I believe they eat several times their weight per day.
Battery life on a hummingbird drone is going to be measured in minutes. Of
course, if it can "feed" off of the city broadcast power...
Message no. 10
From: "Paolo (2) Falco" <Falco@****.it>
Subject: Re: Drone Ideas
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 22:20:01 +0000
On 10 Jun 96, David Buehrer wrote:
> Paolo wrote:
> > [snippy snip]
> > This is because
> > things reproduced at a larger scale do |not necessarily behave
> > as smaller things, and vice versa.
>
> Hmmm... Okay, I didn't take that into account. How about this
> though. Could the basic principle be used on a larger scale?
> ie., could be basic motion and flight *methods* of a
> hummingbird be used to propel a mansized drone providing that
> you have the technology to do so (materials, computer,
> software, and power)? I'm talking about changing the wing size,
> wing camber and range of motion, along with the aerodynamics of
> the drone.

I know nothing of model theory, but I think you might not be
able to reproduce a hovering moving-wing drone human-size or
larger that uses hummingbird movement... I guess it would be
just easier to mount CACR on top of it. Ah, and to quote on the
subject, an aerodynamic engineer actually once said that
"Roaches fly cause they don't know that they cannot!" meaning
that theirs is a completely irreproducible way of flight in
human terms...

> And even if you can't I still have an idea. Make a
> robot humming bird the same size and weight and use it to
> inject (using the convenient beak) the chemical of your choice
> into a target.

Nice... Swift, silent, deadly, and ridiculous enough to look
harmless... :) I think it _can_ be theorically done, but you
have to ask an aerodynamic engineer. I am just a wannabee
Physicist. The main problem would be weight and the feather
material, I think...

> I won't argue that nature has done a wonderful job when it
> comes to the brain (heck, we haven't even figured it out yet).
> But there are some designs where we can do better using better
> materials.

Big, heavy bones and kevlar plates perhaps, but anything really
_deeply_ organic is out of our reach right now... Look at
a modern artificial heart. it looks like a 1920 Steam-engine
compared to the natural one... And in SR terms, I understand
from Shadowtech that cloning is out... And in case you
wondered, cloning is NOT that difficult, in theory. In fact,
it's much, much, much, much easier than to build a whole
organism from scratch, be it either metal or flesh...

> I think this disparity and the fact that man cannot reproduce
> the natural ways of transmitting info accounts for the essence
> loss due to cyberware...
>
> Now that's a thought.

Some people even theorize that direct man-machine interfaces
will _never_ be possible, since Ionic Channels (they're the
thingies that let electrical signals pass into a single cell _
oh, God, don't let my BioPysics professor hear me :) are too
delicate to be tampered with. In fact, they feel potentials of
about 10 millivolts and currents of microamperes... And their
regulation is looped, feedbacked, self-assisted, regulated
chemically and electrically... They're TERRIFYING!

> I love using noise or glimpses as a harbringer of things to
> come. [snip wonderful example]

I envy you. My players tend to doze off when not _directly_
threatened. For once, just for once, i'd like a group of serious
players... No, I'd probably be bored :)
---------------------------------------------------------------
Paolo Falco | "Home is where the supper-dish is"
Ironbound Section | Snoopy
---------------------------------------------------------------
HTTP://www.polito.it/~walter/RollerBrawl/rollerbrawl.html
The Above Web Page Contains Gory Graphics And Fun For Skaters!
Message no. 11
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: Drone Ideas
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 12:55:44 -0600 (MDT)
Paolo wrote:
|
|On 10 Jun 96, David Buehrer wrote:
|> Paolo wrote:
|> > [snippy snip]
|> > This is because
|> > things reproduced at a larger scale do |not necessarily behave
|> > as smaller things, and vice versa.
|>
|> Hmmm... Okay, I didn't take that into account. How about this
|> though. Could the basic principle be used on a larger scale?
|> ie., could be basic motion and flight *methods* of a
|> hummingbird be used to propel a mansized drone providing that
|> you have the technology to do so (materials, computer,
|> software, and power)? I'm talking about changing the wing size,
|> wing camber and range of motion, along with the aerodynamics of
|> the drone.
|
|I know nothing of model theory, but I think you might not be
|able to reproduce a hovering moving-wing drone human-size or
|larger that uses hummingbird movement... I guess it would be
|just easier to mount CACR on top of it. Ah, and to quote on the
|subject, an aerodynamic engineer actually once said that
|"Roaches fly cause they don't know that they cannot!" meaning
|that theirs is a completely irreproducible way of flight in
|human terms...

Bummer. But, since it makes such a good visual (CyberHummer <heh>) I think
I'm going to take a GM's liberty and do it anyway. If the character's ask
I'll have an NPC answer that an AI did the design...a few nanoseconds
before it went insane. No one knows how it works, it just does. Or maybe I
can use something from cybertechnology, a kind of melding of machine and
magic. Limit the use to a single individual or a small group.

|> And even if you can't I still have an idea. Make a
|> robot humming bird the same size and weight and use it to
|> inject (using the convenient beak) the chemical of your choice
|> into a target.
|
|Nice... Swift, silent, deadly, and ridiculous enough to look
|harmless... :) I think it _can_ be theorically done, but you
|have to ask an aerodynamic engineer. I am just a wannabee
|Physicist. The main problem would be weight and the feather
|material, I think...

Oh it would be expensive, but I think it could be done in SR. Maybe as the
favored weapon of an assassin. She could have the nickname "The Hummer"
<grin>.

|Some people even theorize that direct man-machine interfaces
|will _never_ be possible, since Ionic Channels (they're the
|thingies that let electrical signals pass into a single cell _
|oh, God, don't let my BioPysics professor hear me :) are too
|delicate to be tampered with. In fact, they feel potentials of
|about 10 millivolts and currents of microamperes... And their
|regulation is looped, feedbacked, self-assisted, regulated
|chemically and electrically... They're TERRIFYING!

Kinda ironic that in SR the level of technology required for cyberware
bogles the mind, yet shadowrunners get wired up without even considering
what they just had done. A reflection of the disposability of life I guess.

|> I love using noise or glimpses as a harbringer of things to
|> come. [snip wonderful example]
|
|I envy you. My players tend to doze off when not _directly_
|threatened. For once, just for once, i'd like a group of serious
|players... No, I'd probably be bored :)

Years of experience and analysing great movies and books. If you see a
scene in a movie or read a description in a book that really impresses
you, try to figure out how they did that and use the same technique in
a different situation. Like the sound of footsteps running away in an
ally after a murder is commited. The character finds evidence of a
recent event and hears what could be the person who commited the act.
Take this same idea and move it to a different setting. The characters
drive around a bend in the road to find a burning truck lying on its
side. The truck has Ares markings on it. After they turn off their
engine they hear the sound of a helicopter in the distance, or the
sound of large flapping wings growing louder (dragon?). They know
something happened (truck attacked or crashed) and there might be a
nearby threat (attack helicopter or dragon, or maybe both if you're a
cruel GM). But they're not sure and they've got a lot of options.
They're not being directly threatened but I don't think they'll doze
off on you. A story teller's two greatest tools are suspense and
deception (IMHO).

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like
underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.html~~~~~~
Message no. 12
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Drone Ideas
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 10:28:37 +0100
Paolo (2) Falco said on 22:20/10 Jun 96...

> Some people even theorize that direct man-machine interfaces
> will _never_ be possible, since Ionic Channels (they're the
> thingies that let electrical signals pass into a single cell _
> oh, God, don't let my BioPysics professor hear me :) are too
> delicate to be tampered with. In fact, they feel potentials of
> about 10 millivolts and currents of microamperes... And their
> regulation is looped, feedbacked, self-assisted, regulated
> chemically and electrically... They're TERRIFYING!

But then, there's always the patent office manager in the 1880s who closed
his office because "everything has already been invented."

Although some people may say "It'll never happen" about lots of things,
I'm not so sure. You just have to take a look at all the things we have
now that nobody would have held possible 50 years ago, or even 20 years
ago.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Readin' too much and losin' my head
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 13
From: Marc Lipshitz <MLIPSHIT@****.CO.ZA>
Subject: Re: Drone Ideas -Reply
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 12:57:31 +0200
|> Paolo wrote:
|
|> And even if you can't I still have an idea. Make a
|> robot humming bird the same size and weight and use it to
|> inject (using the convenient beak) the chemical of your choice
|> into a target.

Hmm, who around here has read the Dune series? Frank Herbert wrote
about a hunter/killer drone which was small, maneuverable, about the
size of a small bird and injected a lethal poison into the target or exploded
on contact. It was also very difficult to evade ai it was sensitive to
movement.

Marc
Message no. 14
From: Jeff Perrin <jperrin@*********.net>
Subject: Re: Drone Ideas -Reply
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 07:18:47 -0400
Marc Lipshitz wrote:
> Hmm, who around here has read the Dune series? Frank Herbert wrote
> about a hunter/killer drone which was small, maneuverable, about the
> size of a small bird and injected a lethal poison into the target or exploded
> on contact. It was also very difficult to evade ai it was sensitive to
> movement.

uhmmm... actually the hunter/seeker drones weren't so kind as just to
poison...they burrowed into the victim and worked its way to the victims
brain.

--
Luc aka BobW

EXCUSE ME! EXCUSE ME! EXCUSE ME!
BUT THE CORPSE STILL HAS THE FLOOR!!
--Kevin Spacey as Lloyd in The Ref (1994)
Message no. 15
From: Marc Lipshitz <MLIPSHIT@****.CO.ZA>
Subject: Re: Drone Ideas -Reply -Reply
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 13:38:59 +0200
>>> Jeff Perrin <jperrin@*********.net> 12/June/1996 01:18pm >>>
Marc Lipshitz wrote:
> Hmm, who around here has read the Dune series? Frank Herbert
wrote
> about a hunter/killer drone which was small, maneuverable, about the
> size of a small bird and injected a lethal poison into the target or
exploded
> on contact. It was also very difficult to evade ai it was sensitive to
> movement.

uhmmm... actually the hunter/seeker drones weren't so kind as just to
poison...they burrowed into the victim and worked its way to the victims
brain.
-- Luc aka BobW

Whoops, got me, wrong reference, the one I was thinking about is from
The darkover series bu Marion Zimmer Bradley:)

Marc
Message no. 16
From: wilsonpj@******.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Peter)
Subject: Re: Drone Ideas
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 10:15:02 -0600
Gurth wrote:

>Peter said on 20:35/10 Jun 96...
>
>> Does any one have any more detailed information on the thrust needed to
>> keep a hummingbird in flight, and the comparitive thrust needed for a
>> larger drone?
>
>Thrust needed to stay in a hover is equal to the objects weight, isn't it?=

>(Not mass, but weight: weight is mass * gravity acceleration.)
>

Sorry, let me rephrase that.

Does any one have any more detailed information on the wing size and speed=
needed to provide the thrust to keep a humming bird in the air. For a=
drone with increased mass, does the neccisary wing size and speed increase=
proporionally, geoemtrically, or is there a different realationship between=
the mass and thrust generation.

For example, hard data compairing the wing size and speed needed to keep a=
glider in the air as opposed to a multiton jet. This is the type of=
information that I was unsucessfully asking for.

Piatro
Message no. 17
From: wilsonpj@******.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Peter)
Subject: Re: Drone Ideas -Reply
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 10:15:07 -0600
Mike Elkins wrote:

>>Does any one have any more detailed information on the thrust needed to
>>keep
>>a hummingbird in flight, and the comparitive thrust needed for a larger drone?
>>
>>Piatro
>
>No, but I do remember hearing that hummingbirds need to feed almost constantly
>to maintain their metabolism. I believe they eat several times their weight
> per day. Battery life on a hummingbird drone is going to be measured in
> minutes. Of course, if it can "feed" off of the city broadcast power...

"Broadcast Power?" You lost me there. The only similar concept I know of
is the GridLink from RBB. That wouldn't help an airborn drone because the
induction plates are embedded in the surface of the roads. Unless you are
going to send the drone down to recharge in the street of the "better areas
of a city (Security Rating B or better)."

If you were thinking about something else, please elaborate. I would love
to hear about it.

Piatro
Message no. 18
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.com>
Subject: Re: Drone Ideas -Reply -Reply
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 11:25:59 -0500
>"Broadcast Power?" You lost me there. The only similar concept I know of
is
>the GridLink from RBB. That wouldn't help an airborn drone because the
>induction plates are embedded in the surface of the roads. Unless you are
>going to send the drone down to recharge in the street of the "better areas of a
>city (Security Rating B or better)."
>
>If you were thinking about something else, please elaborate. I would love toI
>hear about it.
>
>Piatro

Yes, that is pretty much what I was thinking about (but couldn't remember the
name). The induction plates would have to have at least a two foot range to keep
cars powered, and the energy the drone would need would be much less, so you
might be able to suck enough power from farther away. Even still, you couldn't
go far, or stay away for long, and you'd have to dodge traffic while "feeding"
:)

Personally, I think you'd get a lot more bang for the buck with a larger drone with
worse performance. My personal favorite is the "machine gun dog", which is a
machine gun with four legs and a dog's mobility.

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 19
From: Jeff Perrin <jperrin@*********.net>
Subject: Re: Drone Ideas -Reply -Reply
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 12:06:04 -0400
Mike Elkins wrote:
> Yes, that is pretty much what I was thinking about (but couldn't remember the
> name). The induction plates would have to have at least a two foot range to keep
> cars powered, and the energy the drone would need would be much less, so you
> might be able to suck enough power from farther away. Even still, you couldn't
> go far, or stay away for long, and you'd have to dodge traffic while
"feeding" :)

actually the cars would have a lead dragging across the plates to
"pickup" electricity because electricity can't go through two feet of
air unless maybe it was strong enough and then it would zap the hell
outta the car in passangers :)

actually the type of broadcast power that can go through air (is in real
life) involves the transmission of energy through sending
electromagnetic energy (mircowave i think) and the recieving equipment
prolly wouldnt fit in a jack rabbit nor be cheap enough for the common
person to afford.

--
Luc aka BobW

EXCUSE ME! EXCUSE ME! EXCUSE ME!
BUT THE CORPSE STILL HAS THE FLOOR!!
--Kevin Spacey as Lloyd in The Ref (1994)
Message no. 20
From: bsingley@*****.com (Ben Singley)
Subject: Re: Drone Ideas
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 13:24:29 -0400
Piatro wrote:

>Does any one have any more detailed information on the wing size and speed
>needed to provide the thrust to keep a humming bird in the air. For a
>drone with increased mass, does the neccisary wing size and speed increase
>proporionally, geoemtrically, or is there a different realationship
>between the mass and thrust generation.
>
>For example, hard data compairing the wing size and speed needed to keep a
>glider in the air as opposed to a multiton jet. This is the type of
>information that I was unsucessfully asking for.

...the velocity of an unladen hummingbird in flight? African or West European?"

Sorry, Piatro, I couldn't resist the Monty Pythonism. :-)

Ben
Message no. 21
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.com>
Subject: Re: Drone Ideas -Reply -Reply -Reply
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 13:33:53 -0500
>actually the cars would have a lead dragging across the plates to "pickup"
> electricity because electricity can't go through two feet of air unless maybe it
>was strong enough and then it would zap the hell outta the car in passangers :)

Your saying there are electrified plates sitting "naked" on the street? Talk
about
an effective anti-jaywalking measure!

I don't have the books with me, but I think the idea was some form of inductive
system, which certainly could cover a few feet of air gap. With a few slightly
science fictional improvements, an inductive system could be made to work,
inefficiently of course.

And the size of the receiving equipment can be quite small and cheap anyway.
Microwaves have a wavelength of centimeters or less, so you can make an
efficient antenna the size of a shoebox.

P.S. In real life, I'm not exactly optimistic that such a system is feasible or even a
good idea, I'm just arguing that ShadowRun mentions that cars can draw city
power, and that the most (relatively) realistic way for them to do so is some sort of
induction system (and that a low altitude small drone could conceivably tap some
of that power)

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 22
From: Hairy Smurf <ab130f92@*******.adelphi.edu>
Subject: Re: Drone Ideas -Reply -Reply -Reply
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 14:00:39 -0400 (EDT)
At 13:33 6/12/96 -0500, you wrote:
>>actually the cars would have a lead dragging across the plates to
"pickup"
>> electricity because electricity can't go through two feet of air unless
maybe it
>>was strong enough and then it would zap the hell outta the car in
passangers :)
>
>Your saying there are electrified plates sitting "naked" on the street?
Talk about
>an effective anti-jaywalking measure!
>
>I don't have the books with me, but I think the idea was some form of inductive
>system, which certainly could cover a few feet of air gap. With a few slightly
>science fictional improvements, an inductive system could be made to work,
>inefficiently of course.
>
>And the size of the receiving equipment can be quite small and cheap anyway.
>Microwaves have a wavelength of centimeters or less, so you can make an
>efficient antenna the size of a shoebox.
>
>P.S. In real life, I'm not exactly optimistic that such a system is
feasible or even a
>good idea, I'm just arguing that ShadowRun mentions that cars can draw city
>power, and that the most (relatively) realistic way for them to do so is
some sort of
>induction system (and that a low altitude small drone could conceivably tap
some
>of that power)
>
>Double-Domed Mike
>

OK folks. The system already exists. It uses direct conntact with the
vehicle passing over it. But the system is not continually electrified. It
has sensors attached to the system that sense where the vehicle is. The
sensors tell the system where to electrify and where not to. The result is
that the vehicle will move on the track, but someone stepping on the track
will not get electrified. At this point, AFAIK, the system is feasable and
can get a car going at about 30 MPH. Which if you think about it is about as
fast as you can go in a major city anyway. (At least in NYC.)

Sasquatch

--------------------------------------------------------------------
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| If Stormtroopers can't hit the side of a barn, and |
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| |
| ab130f92@*******.adelphi.edu |
| tech@*******.adelphi.edu blair@*****.adelphi.edu |
| No Website (yet) |
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 23
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Drone Ideas
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 11:30:32 +0100
Peter said on 10:15/12 Jun 96...

> Sorry, let me rephrase that.
>
> Does any one have any more detailed information on the wing size and
> speed needed to provide the thrust to keep a humming bird in the air.
> For a drone with increased mass, does the neccisary wing s ze and speed
> increase proporionally, geoemtrically, or is there a different
> realationship between the mass and thrust generation.
>
> For example, hard data compairing the wing size and speed needed to keep
> a glider in the air as opposed to a multiton jet. This is the type of
> information that I was unsucessfully asking for. I'm generally too lazy
> to read them enough times to get them into my head

Sorry, I can't help you with that, but I do think it'd be easier for
modern science to build something that doesn't resemble a hummingbird
physically, but does in performance. With that I mean: no flapping-wings
design, but a vertical jet or rocket engine, or an overhead rotor to keep
the drone in the air. Wing movements are very complex, especially those of
a hummingbird (they don't just go up and down, but also backward and
forward and in addition to _that_ they also turn...
The main trouble today would be to make an engine small enough to be fit
into a body a few cm long and wide, even if you could design wings
mechanical that could do those movements.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
You can blow out a candle, but you can't blow out a fire
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
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------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 24
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Drone Ideas -Reply -Reply
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 11:30:32 +0100
Mike Elkins said on 11:25/12 Jun 96...

> Yes, that is pretty much what I was thinking about (but couldn't
> remember the name). The [GridLink] induction plates would have to have
> at least a two foot range to keep cars powered, and the energy the drone
> would need would be much less, so you might be able to suck enough power
> from farther away. Even still, you couldn't go far, or stay away for
> long, and you'd have to dodge traffic while "feeding" :)

They wouldn't need to have any real range at all -- a much easier way to
power electric cars would be to put a contact pad underneath the car that
gets pressed to the ground (and so also against the GridLink plates) by a
spring, much the same as on electrical trains and trams, except it's on
the underside instead of on the roof.

If GridLink is induction-based (as seems likely -- you don't want
pedestrians getting electrocuted while crossing the street :) you should
be able to pick up the magnetic field from further away than direct
contact with the plates, but it might not be all that far.

Also, what would happen to your electronic watch when you cross a GridLink
system? :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
You can blow out a candle, but you can't blow out a fire
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
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Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 25
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: Drone Ideas
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 07:20:23 -0600 (MDT)
Gurth wrote:
|
|Peter said on 10:15/12 Jun 96...
|
|> Sorry, let me rephrase that.
|>
|> Does any one have any more detailed information on the wing size and
|> speed needed to provide the thrust to keep a humming bird in the air.
|> For a drone with increased mass, does the neccisary wing s ze and speed
|> increase proporionally, geoemtrically, or is there a different
|> realationship between the mass and thrust generation.
|>
|Sorry, I can't help you with that, but I do think it'd be easier for
|modern science to build something that doesn't resemble a hummingbird
|physically, but does in performance. With that I mean: no flapping-wings
|design, but a vertical jet or rocket engine, or an overhead rotor to keep
|the drone in the air. Wing movements are very complex, especially those of
|a hummingbird (they don't just go up and down, but also backward and
|forward and in addition to _that_ they also turn...
|The main trouble today would be to make an engine small enough to be fit
|into a body a few cm long and wide, even if you could design wings
|mechanical that could do those movements.

You could do it without an engine, theoretically. A humming bird doesn't
have an engine/motor, it uses muscles. Create a synthetic material that
acts like a muscle (maybe contracts if electrically stimulated) with a
response rate equal to the task and you can do it. And if it reacts to a
low enough voltage you can put in a small battery to run the whole
operation. And the computer brain could be handled with future technology.
Today we have the capability to lay down pathways on a chip atom by atom.
And back to the synthetic muscle, if it's strong enough you can apply it to
a larger version.

Definitely not easy, but possible. Kinda depends on what the level of tech
is in your game.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like
underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.html~~~~~~
Message no. 26
From: "Paolo (2) Falco" <Falco@****.it>
Subject: Re: Drone Ideas -Reply -Reply
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 18:35:08 +0000
On 12 Jun 96, Mike Elkins wrote:
> Personally, I think you'd get a lot more bang for the buck with
> a larger drone with worse performance. My personal favorite is
> the "machine gun dog", which is a machine gun with four legs
> and a dog's mobility.

I can see "panther horses" and "Vanquisher elephants" already...
Nice thought, tough :)

----------------------------------------------------------------
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Ironbound Section | contains a self referencing sub ensemble
----------------------------------------------------------------
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The Above Web Page Contains Gory Graphics And Fun For Skaters!
Message no. 27
From: wilsonpj@******.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Peter)
Subject: Re: Drone Ideas
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 12:21:02 -0600
Ben wrote:

> ...the velocity of an unladen hummingbird in flight? African or
> West European?"
>
>Sorry, Piatro, I couldn't resist the Monty Pythonism. :-)
>


That's quite alright. I just wish I would have seen it first.


Piatro
Message no. 28
From: wilsonpj@******.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Peter)
Subject: Re: Drone Ideas -Reply -Reply -Reply
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 12:21:06 -0600
Double-Domed Mike wrote:


> Your saying there are electrified plates sitting "naked" on the
> street? Talk about an effective anti-jaywalking measure!
>
> I don't have the books with me, but I think the idea was some form
> of inductive system, which certainly could cover a few feet of air
> gap. With a few slightly science fictional improvements, an
> inductive system could be made to work, inefficiently of course.
>
> And the size of the receiving equipment can be quite small and cheap
> anyway. Microwaves have a wavelength of centimeters or less, so you
> can make an efficient antenna the size of a shoebox.
>
> P.S.

> In real life, I'm not exactly optimistic that such a system is
> feasible or even a good idea, I'm just arguing that ShadowRun
> mentions that cars can draw city power, and that the most (relatively)
> realistic way for them to do so is some sort of induction system
> (and that a low altitude small drone could conceivably tap some of
> that power)

Currently there is an inventer working on the electrical plates in the road=
system. As I recall he had a proof of concept type model and was working=
on seting up a full sized version. The elecrtical plates in the road were=
only powered when roadside recievers picked up signals from a vehicle that=
was set up to pick up the power.

On the subject of microwave power "broadcast," I thought they had to be=
focused to arive at a specific reciever. In effect both the transmitter=
and reciever use parabolic type reflecter dishes. Without this type of=
equipment I would think the lost power would by far outweigh te benifits of=
this concept. Does anyone have more detailed info on this.

Piatro
Message no. 29
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: Drone Ideas -Reply -Reply -Reply
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 11:50:25 -0600 (MDT)
Peter wrote:
|
|Double-Domed Mike wrote:
|
[snip: talking about powergrid system]
|>
|> And the size of the receiving equipment can be quite small and cheap
|> anyway. Microwaves have a wavelength of centimeters or less, so you
|> can make an efficient antenna the size of a shoebox.
|>
|> In real life, I'm not exactly optimistic that such a system is
|> feasible or even a good idea, I'm just arguing that ShadowRun
|> mentions that cars can draw city power, and that the most (relatively)
|> realistic way for them to do so is some sort of induction system
|> (and that a low altitude small drone could conceivably tap some of
|> that power)
|
|On the subject of microwave power "broadcast," I thought they had to be=
| focused to arive at a specific reciever. In effect both the transmitter=
| and reciever use parabolic type reflecter dishes. Without this type of=
| equipment I would think the lost power would by far outweigh te benifits of=
| this concept. Does anyone have more detailed info on this.

Not more detail, but an idea. Wouldn't it be pretty easy to set up a
sensor system so that microwave, or other transmited energy would only
be released when there's a car overhead. That way the entire grid
wouldn't be on at once, just the spots were the cars are. In the US
we've got simple magnetic sensors that tell traffic lights when cars
are waiting for a green light.

I would think that vehicles setup to run off the power grid would have
something in them to tell the powergrid to release the energy to them,
and not to the regular battery driven or IC vehicle.

And from what I've read I get the impression that SR's powergrid system is
some sort of transmission system like microwaves.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like
underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.html~~~~~~
Message no. 30
From: "Sambo" <polan881@******.edu>
Subject: Re: Drone Ideas
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 14:19:48 +0000
> Gurth wrote:
>
> >Peter said on 20:35/10 Jun 96...
> >
> >> Does any one have any more detailed information on the thrust needed to
> >> keep a hummingbird in flight, and the comparitive thrust needed for a
> >> larger drone?
> >
> >Thrust needed to stay in a hover is equal to the objects weight, isn't it?
> >(Not mass, but weight: weight is mass * gravity acceleration.)
> >
>
> Sorry, let me rephrase that.
>
> Does any one have any more detailed information on the wing size
> and speed needed to provide the thrust to keep a humming bird in
> the air. For a drone with increased mass, does the neccisary wing
> s ze and speed increase proporionally, geoemtrically, or is there a
> different realationship between the mass and thrust generation.
>
> For example, hard data compairing the wing size and speed needed
> to keep a glider in the air as opposed to a multiton jet. This is
> the type of information that I was unsucessfully asking for.
>
> Piatro

I'm no physicist but I do know that any object can only change its
direction of travel so fast. And that this is directly related to
the objects mass. IOW, even if you had a really buffed hummingbird
and it had bigger/heavier wings, those wings could not beat as fast
as the smaller/lighter wings. I realize that this is only one of the
variables that would come into play, however it has not been
discussed here to my knowledge. Of course it is probably the most important
factor since the speed of the wing's beat is the reason the
hummingbird can hover.



***Sparhawk***

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