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Message no. 1
From: Steadfast laughingman@*******.de
Subject: Drones and Weapon Mounts
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 12:16:55 +0200
OK, here are some questions that came up during a session regarding Drones
and Weapon mounted on them.

A: How far into a building can the Sensors of a Drone/Vehicle actually take
data from? The question occured when the Rigger (me) tried to locate from
the outside any possible opposition inside a building, but the GM told me
that my Sensor feed does not go through solid objects like Plasticsteel, so
I had now data at all. And I ran a Sensorsweep with a Rating 4 Sensor array
boosted to something around 25 km for Range (I realy wanted to get that
info) and got more 6's than ever before (3 to be exact).

B: What can you do when your Assault Rifle mounted on the mini Turret of
your Drone runs out of ammo? Is a clipchanger already figured inside the
weapons integration kit or does a Rigger need to have some buddy open up
the drone, take the magazine out, insert a new magazine close the drone and
pray that all that time no one comes and shoots anybody? How is it worked
out ruleswise, I have not found anything.

C: Into the same breach, how is it when your Weapon has a Jam during the
move (enough 1's to last for two runs), is there a possibility that the Jam
can be "repaired" without having the Drone to come back and roll some
weapon B/R rolls. What about the Weapons integration kit, does that help in
any way or would that be another modification not yet mentioned by the
Rigger 2 (or maybe mentioned I havent found it).

D: On something completly different, how long is the effect of the flashpak
actually in effect? I mean how long is someone blinded, I remember that I
have read something like that somewere but I can't remeber where. If anyone
can point me some directions I would be most pleasured.

--

---> Steadfast
The one, the only.
That is, if you do not count the others.
Message no. 2
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Drones and Weapon Mounts
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 09:41:19 EDT
In a message dated 7/8/99 6:12:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
laughingman@*******.de writes:

> B: What can you do when your Assault Rifle mounted on the mini Turret of
> your Drone runs out of ammo? Is a clipchanger already figured inside the
> weapons integration kit or does a Rigger need to have some buddy open up
> the drone, take the magazine out, insert a new magazine close the drone and
> pray that all that time no one comes and shoots anybody? How is it worked
> out ruleswise, I have not found anything.

You're using an assault rifle and are having ammo problems? Have you tried
something like the Enfield AS-7 with it's 100-round drum? That has a nasty
damage code, and you could make it even more painful with EX rounds. If you
want a full-auto weapon (why, though? hardly anyone gets to use them
effectively) would the Ingram Valiant be too much? Ahhhh, but maybe you want
the versatility of an Assault Rifle. Well, I had personally always assumed
that coverting a weapon for vehicle mouting made it belt-fed weapon, but I'm
sure I'd hideously wrong.




-Twist
(No! You did not kill that cyberzombie now!! You ran out of ammo! Stop
crying!! This is beneath you!!)
Message no. 3
From: Lloyd Vance ljvance@*******.edu
Subject: Drones and Weapon Mounts
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 09:27:45
<snip A cuz I don't know, I'm at work and my books aren't>

>B: What can you do when your Assault Rifle mounted on the mini Turret of
>your Drone runs out of ammo? Is a clipchanger already figured inside the
>weapons integration kit or does a Rigger need to have some buddy open up
>the drone, take the magazine out, insert a new magazine close the drone and
>pray that all that time no one comes and shoots anybody? How is it worked
>out ruleswise, I have not found anything.

Why didn't you go belted ammo? Never mind. I don't want you to get self
concious. But the answer would be yes. Someone would have to put in a new
magazine.

>
>C: Into the same breach, how is it when your Weapon has a Jam during the
>move (enough 1's to last for two runs), is there a possibility that the Jam
>can be "repaired" without having the Drone to come back and roll some
>weapon B/R rolls. What about the Weapons integration kit, does that help in
>any way or would that be another modification not yet mentioned by the
>Rigger 2 (or maybe mentioned I havent found it).

Well. If this jam is a result of all ones, I would say that it would
require B/R, due to the nature of the rule of ones. Actually, I would say
that only having the gun jam was rather nice of the GM.

>
>D: On something completly different, how long is the effect of the flashpak
>actually in effect? I mean how long is someone blinded, I remember that I
>have read something like that somewere but I can't remeber where. If anyone
>can point me some directions I would be most pleasured.
>
>--

I believe you'll find that in Street Sam? Not sure but I think it was.

>---> Steadfast

The Hamm
aka Lloyd Vance
Message no. 4
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Drones and Weapon Mounts
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 19:42:23 +0200
According to Steadfast, at 12:16 on 8 Jul 99, the word on
the street was...

> A: How far into a building can the Sensors of a Drone/Vehicle actually take
> data from?

No idea, perhaps Jon has some enlightening data on this? :)

> B: What can you do when your Assault Rifle mounted on the mini Turret of
> your Drone runs out of ammo?

You can do anything you could before it ran out of ammo, except shoot the
weapon, I'd say :)

> Is a clipchanger already figured inside the weapons integration kit or
> does a Rigger need to have some buddy open up the drone, take the
> magazine out, insert a new magazine close the drone and pray that all
> that time no one comes and shoots anybody? How is it worked out
> ruleswise, I have not found anything.

The way I see it, a weapon still has the same ammo capacity as it did
before being mounted on the drone (or other vehicle). If the clip runs
out, you can't shoot it anymore... A belt-fed weapon is the best thing to
mount on a drone, IMO.

> C: Into the same breach, how is it when your Weapon has a Jam during the
> move (enough 1's to last for two runs), is there a possibility that the Jam
> can be "repaired" without having the Drone to come back and roll some
> weapon B/R rolls. What about the Weapons integration kit, does that help in
> any way or would that be another modification not yet mentioned by the
> Rigger 2 (or maybe mentioned I havent found it).

Depends on the kind of jam. If it's a simple dud, I would imagine the
drone can re-cock the gun and eject the dud (all that takes is some kind
of servo motor hooked up to the gun's mechanism). If the weapon itself
breaks down, there is little the drone would be able to do.

> D: On something completly different, how long is the effect of the flashpak
> actually in effect? I mean how long is someone blinded, I remember that I
> have read something like that somewere but I can't remeber where. If anyone
> can point me some directions I would be most pleasured.

It's not mentioned in the SSC nor in SR3, but I would say for one turn.
IRL it'd be longer than that, as you can easily see by looking into a
bright flashlight for a second, but it'd make them too powerful for SR,
IMHO.

Or you could say that the modifier is reduced by 1 at the end of every
turn.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
E-mails uit het verleden bieden geen garantie voor de toekomst.
-> ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 5
From: Number Ten Ox number_10_ox@**********.com
Subject: Drones and Weapon Mounts
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 13:11:18 -0700 (PDT)
---Twist0059@***.com wrote:

> laughingman@*******.de writes:
>
> > B: What can you do when your Assault Rifle mounted on the mini Turret of
> > your Drone runs out of ammo?

> You're using an assault rifle and are having ammo problems?. If you
> want a full-auto weapon (why, though? hardly anyone gets to use them
> effectively) would the Ingram Valiant be too much?

Now that was a question *I* had. Why, why, WHY is everyone so hung-up on
full-auto mode as opposed to burst fire? IMO, the lower damage of the burst
fire setting is *far* offset by the recoil penalties: the Troll street sam
in my game has a natural recoil modifier and a Gas Vent III, and she can
nullify two bursts but not, I think, much more than that. Who'd be nuts
enough to use full auto?

--Number 10.

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message no. 6
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Drones and Weapon Mounts
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 16:36:51 EDT
In a message dated 7/8/99 4:30:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
number_10_ox@**********.com writes:

> > You're using an assault rifle and are having ammo problems?. If you
> > want a full-auto weapon (why, though? hardly anyone gets to use them
> > effectively) would the Ingram Valiant be too much?
>
> Now that was a question *I* had. Why, why, WHY is everyone so hung-up on
> full-auto mode as opposed to burst fire? IMO, the lower damage of the burst
> fire setting is *far* offset by the recoil penalties: the Troll street sam
> in my game has a natural recoil modifier and a Gas Vent III, and she can
> nullify two bursts but not, I think, much more than that. Who'd be nuts
> enough to use full auto?
>
> --Number 10.
>


I think the only reason people use full-auto is for those truly devasting
encounters, the times when you really need a +6 Power and a Deadly Damage
code (you could take it to +10, of course, but the recoil kills out your
successes). I remember at the end of Paradise Lost, my old character Twist
(he died in the recent Stuffer Shack First-Run adventure, thanks to the
fraggin' Initiative Pass system) killed the <deleted for spoiler reasons, but
most should know what it is :-) > ultimate bad guy at the end using an
Assault Rifle and a six-round EX burst. He had 4 points natural recoil (from
FoF) and a shock pad and gas-vent on the rifle. Sweetest damn moment. And
then he gets killed years later by a pack of gangers and some junk food.
Such is the way of the Sprawl......




-Twist
Survivor of two editions of Food Fight, causality of the third.
Message no. 7
From: K. Suderman suderman@*****.ocean.fsu.edu
Subject: Drones and Weapon Mounts
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 16:51:10 -0400
Ahem.. I had a troll sam (named Skid) with a pair of SMGs (w/ floating
breeches, Paranoid Animals...) who occasionally used full auto to lay down
some pretty convincing suppression fire. No one ever claimed Skid wasn't
nuts, though...

Other than that, burst fire is better.

Question: If I'm using full auto, I can fire up to 10 rounds in any
combination of bursts I choose, right? How about 3, 3, and 3? Is that the
equivalent of three 3-round bursts in one round (v. the two bursts normally
allowed)? I never got around to asking my GM...

Keith


At 01:11 PM 7/8/99 -0700, you wrote:
>---Twist0059@***.com wrote:
>
>> laughingman@*******.de writes:
>>
>> > B: What can you do when your Assault Rifle mounted on the mini Turret of
>> > your Drone runs out of ammo?
>
>> You're using an assault rifle and are having ammo problems?. If you
>> want a full-auto weapon (why, though? hardly anyone gets to use them
>> effectively) would the Ingram Valiant be too much?
>
>Now that was a question *I* had. Why, why, WHY is everyone so hung-up on
>full-auto mode as opposed to burst fire? IMO, the lower damage of the burst
>fire setting is *far* offset by the recoil penalties: the Troll street sam
>in my game has a natural recoil modifier and a Gas Vent III, and she can
>nullify two bursts but not, I think, much more than that. Who'd be nuts
>enough to use full auto?
>
>--Number 10.
>
>_________________________________________________________
>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
Keith Suderman suderman@*****.fsu.edu
Florida State University 850-980-3218
Department of Oceanography
Message no. 8
From: Steadfast laughingman@*******.de
Subject: Drones and Weapon Mounts
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 23:04:29 +0200
And so it came to happen that Gurth wrote in reply to my humble self:
>
> According to Steadfast, at 12:16 on 8 Jul 99, the word on
> the street was...
>
> > A: How far into a building can the Sensors of a Drone/Vehicle actually take
> > data from?
>
> No idea, perhaps Jon has some enlightening data on this? :)
>
<snip question regarding changing of magazines on drones during
Combat>

> The way I see it, a weapon still has the same ammo capacity as it did
> before being mounted on the drone (or other vehicle). If the clip runs
> out, you can't shoot it anymore... A belt-fed weapon is the best thing to
> mount on a drone, IMO.

Yes, but what if you do not have the space? Nearly any flying drone
has not enough body to mount a LMG or higher. So, what is it to do to
convert an assault rifle for belt feed? Is it impossible or is it
doable?

<snip Jam question on same occasion>
> Depends on the kind of jam. If it's a simple dud, I would imagine the
> drone can re-cock the gun and eject the dud (all that takes is some kind
> of servo motor hooked up to the gun's mechanism). If the weapon itself
> breaks down, there is little the drone would be able to do.

I thought the same and told the GM, he said no way although it was a
dud. Annyway this is no complaining area about "Buhu, my GM was real
bad to me tonite, Buah!", so I cut that. But to be fair, he told me
that he thinks that I need a special modofication to the weaponmount
to do this trick. I pointed to the Weapons integration kit, he told me
that that was not it. So that's it, damn. Do anyone think that a
weapon integration kit got a simple servomotor build in for such an
occasion? Please?
;o)

--

---> Steadfast
The one, the only.
That is, if you do not count the others.
Message no. 9
From: Steadfast laughingman@*******.de
Subject: Drones and Weapon Mounts
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 23:04:32 +0200
And so it came to happen that Lloyd Vance wrote in reply to my humble
self:

> >B: What can you do when your Assault Rifle mounted on the mini Turret of
> >your Drone runs out of ammo? Is a clipchanger already figured inside the
> >weapons integration kit or does a Rigger need to have some buddy open up
> >the drone, take the magazine out, insert a new magazine close the drone and
> >pray that all that time no one comes and shoots anybody? How is it worked
> >out ruleswise, I have not found anything.
>
> Why didn't you go belted ammo? Never mind. I don't want you to get self
> concious. But the answer would be yes. Someone would have to put in a new
> magazine.

Problem here is that AFAIK there are no "official" rules for
converting Magazine or Clip based Weapons to use belt feeded
ammunition. Actually I do not know how easy this conversion would be
as most movies show that an assault rifle does take the ammunition
from under the barrel into the chamber LMG ans such seem to have the
belt feed from the side. But I personally do not know jack about such
things. Annyway, my question is wether or not there are rules to it,
and if were. If not then it is House Rule Time and I am glad for
input, although some ideas seem already logic enough.

> >C: Into the same breach, how is it when your Weapon has a Jam during the
> >move (enough 1's to last for two runs), is there a possibility that the Jam
> >can be "repaired" without having the Drone to come back and roll some
> >weapon B/R rolls. What about the Weapons integration kit, does that help in
> >any way or would that be another modification not yet mentioned by the
> >Rigger 2 (or maybe mentioned I havent found it).
>
> Well. If this jam is a result of all ones, I would say that it would
> require B/R, due to the nature of the rule of ones. Actually, I would say
> that only having the gun jam was rather nice of the GM.

My guess too, but annyhow, tell me are there anny rules that do cover
Jams in SR3rd.? If so I have overlooked them. There seems to be no
other possibility to have your sturdy weapon get jammed other than the
rule of 1. So it seemed more than legit to me at that time ;o)

--
---> Steadfast
The one, the only.
That is, if you do not count the others.
Message no. 10
From: Steadfast laughingman@*******.de
Subject: Drones and Weapon Mounts
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 23:04:35 +0200
And so it came to happen that Twist0059@***.com wrote in reply to hy
humble self:

> > B: What can you do when your Assault Rifle mounted on the mini Turret of
> > your Drone runs out of ammo? Is a clipchanger already figured inside the
> > weapons integration kit or does a Rigger need to have some buddy open up
> > the drone, take the magazine out, insert a new magazine close the drone and
> > pray that all that time no one comes and shoots anybody? How is it worked
> > out ruleswise, I have not found anything.
>
> You're using an assault rifle and are having ammo problems? Have you tried
> something like the Enfield AS-7 with it's 100-round drum? That has a nasty
> damage code, and you could make it even more painful with EX rounds.

No, actually I tried to take a plain and simple Colt to do the trick.
It seemed alright with me, moderate Firepower with low cost. Only the
ammunitionproblem arouse after the GM told me that the Assault rifle
is not designed to take belted ammunition.

> If you want a full-auto weapon (why, though? hardly anyone gets to use them
> effectively) would the Ingram Valiant be too much? Ahhhh, but maybe you want
> the versatility of an Assault Rifle.

If I recall the Ingramm beeing an LMG it would not fit into my drone
(Wolfhound, I love that one). Why I wanted a Fullauto weapon? Because
I had versatility in mind during creation of the Rigger, with loads of
drones for nearly any purpose on a relative low level. And a heavy
support drone was missing, so I thought of the assult rifle as it had
also the possibilty of a sniper mode with singleshots from above.

> Well, I had personally always assumed
> that coverting a weapon for vehicle mouting made it belt-fed weapon, but I'm
> sure I'd hideously wrong.

As told, I would gladly accept this, but I could not find anything
about that in the rules. Maybe I am blind, maybe it is one of those
small details that slipped past the eyes during the workout of the
book. After all, you can't take every detail into a book when it comes
to technology related worlds. Too complex, to many variables. But if
there is something that could clarify, I would be glad to hear.
Otherwise its once again HRT
(House Rule Time)!
--

---> Steadfast
The one, the only.
That is, if you do not count the others.
Message no. 11
From: Lehlan Decker DeckerL@******.com
Subject: Drones and Weapon Mounts
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 17:00:44 -0400
>>> "K. Suderman" <suderman@*****.ocean.fsu.edu> 07/08/99
04:51pm >>>
>Ahem.. I had a troll sam (named Skid) with a pair of SMGs (w/ floating
>breeches, Paranoid Animals...) who occasionally used full auto to lay
>down some pretty convincing suppression fire. No one ever claimed
>Skid wasn't nuts, though...

No comments concerning Skid's sanity.....

>Other than that, burst fire is better.

>Question: If I'm using full auto, I can fire up to 10 rounds in any
>combination of bursts I choose, right? How about 3, 3, and 3? Is that
>the equivalent of three 3-round bursts in one round (v. the two bursts
>normally allowed)? I never got around to asking my GM...

Heh...I didn't think about it back then, I'd say yes, but since your using
the supression rules, its allowed. (If that makes any sense). I also don't
think we had switched to 3rd ed at the time....Damn, now I have to go look
this up.
Message no. 12
From: Steadfast laughingman@*******.de
Subject: Drones and Weapon Mounts
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 23:14:31 +0200
And so it came to happen that Number Ten Ox wrote in reply to
Twist0059@***.com:

> > > B: What can you do when your Assault Rifle mounted on the mini Turret of
> > > your Drone runs out of ammo?
>
> > You're using an assault rifle and are having ammo problems?. If you
> > want a full-auto weapon (why, though? hardly anyone gets to use them
> > effectively) would the Ingram Valiant be too much?
>
> Now that was a question *I* had. Why, why, WHY is everyone so hung-up on
> full-auto mode as opposed to burst fire? IMO, the lower damage of the burst
> fire setting is *far* offset by the recoil penalties: the Troll street sam
> in my game has a natural recoil modifier and a Gas Vent III, and she can
> nullify two bursts but not, I think, much more than that. Who'd be nuts
> enough to use full auto?

<grin>
Count me in. Answer why? Because I can! Well probably some machotalk
after all, but after endless silent runs you sometimes want to simple
cut loose. Well, I personally do.
But on a sidenote, here in germany we have also the rule (thanks to
FanPro and this one is for real) that burstfire only makes -2 not -3
modifier wise. I can live with that. Annyhow, Fullauto can in my
opinion only be fired (in SR) from drones or vehicles, so it makes
sense. All vehicles and drones half recoil, so it IS an option.
--

---> Steadfast
The one, the only.
That is, if you do not count the others.
Message no. 13
From: Steadfast laughingman@*******.de
Subject: Drones and Weapon Mounts
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 23:25:36 +0200
And so it came to happen that "K. Suderman" wrote:
>
> Ahem.. I had a troll sam (named Skid) with a pair of SMGs (w/ floating
> breeches, Paranoid Animals...) who occasionally used full auto to lay down
> some pretty convincing suppression fire. No one ever claimed Skid wasn't
> nuts, though...
>
> Other than that, burst fire is better.
>
> Question: If I'm using full auto, I can fire up to 10 rounds in any
> combination of bursts I choose, right? How about 3, 3, and 3? Is that the
> equivalent of three 3-round bursts in one round (v. the two bursts normally
> allowed)? I never got around to asking my GM...
>
> Keith

Yes in a way. You actually do one Burst of 9 rounds, but the effect
is that you hit A with 3 rounds B with 3 rounds and C with 3 rounds.
Or anny other combination of hits on only one person or two. For the
first "burst" you get a penalty of +3, counting any recoilcompensation
down, the second "burst" takes you to a +6, and the 3rd "burst" takes
you to a nice +9 for the full auto round only.

But then you have to count in the extra rounds if you walk the fire.
Or you have a Smartlink. And then after all, you got the Recoil, if
you have the manpower to handle it, do it. Otherwise burst your way
through any defenses, Fullauto is simply only for Trolls and Vehicles.
And maybe augmented other Metas with a Gyroscope.
--

---> Steadfast
The one, the only.
That is, if you do not count the others.
Message no. 14
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Drones and Weapon Mounts
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 18:39:36 -0700 (PDT)
<Snippola(TM)>
> Now that was a question *I* had. Why, why, WHY is everyone so hung-up
on full-auto mode as opposed to burst fire? IMO, the lower damage of
the burst fire setting is *far* offset by the recoil penalties: the
Troll street sam in my game has a natural recoil modifier and a Gas
Vent III, and she can nullify two bursts but not, I think, much more
than that. Who'd be nuts enough to use full auto?
>
> --Number 10.

That would be because full auto fire is a hell of a lot more useful IRL
than SR makes it, for supression purposes if nothing else.

In SR, though, BF is king...mostly. If you want a nasty gun, you get
yourself a combat shotgun - and a LOT of recoil absorption.

Or, a sniper rifle. :)

*Void drools. "Mmmmm...Waaallltherrrr..."

Doc' frowns. "Hey, what the hell are you doing? Get outta here, freak!"*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message no. 15
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Drones and Weapon Mounts
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 11:31:46 +0200
According to Number Ten Ox, at 13:11 on 8 Jul 99, the word on
the street was...

> Now that was a question *I* had. Why, why, WHY is everyone so hung-up on
> full-auto mode as opposed to burst fire? IMO, the lower damage of the burst
> fire setting is *far* offset by the recoil penalties: the Troll street sam
> in my game has a natural recoil modifier and a Gas Vent III, and she can
> nullify two bursts but not, I think, much more than that. Who'd be nuts
> enough to use full auto?

Those of us who have adopted house rules to make FA fire more likely to
hit than under SRII/SR3 rules?

Or those people who are in situations where the target can relatively
easily shrug off two, 3-round bursts but has serious trouble with a 6-
round burst?

People who want to use suppression fire to cover a hallway?

Anyone carrying a machinegun?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
E-mails uit het verleden bieden geen garantie voor de toekomst.
-> ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 16
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Drones and Weapon Mounts
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 11:31:47 +0200
According to K. Suderman, at 16:51 on 8 Jul 99, the word on
the street was...

> Question: If I'm using full auto, I can fire up to 10 rounds in any
> combination of bursts I choose, right? How about 3, 3, and 3? Is that the
> equivalent of three 3-round bursts in one round (v. the two bursts normally
> allowed)? I never got around to asking my GM...

<GridSec>
Keith, please put your replies underneath the messages you quote, and
delete the irrelevant parts of the quoted text, as I've done here. Thanks.
</GridSec>

Now on to my actual reply...

You can "split" a FA burst among multiple targets, as explained in SR3 on
page 116. This essentially counts as a series of separate bursts, with a
+2 TN modifier per new target. You must also "waste" one round per meter
distance between targets.

So, if you're confronted by three thugs, you could fire 3 rounds at each
of them (assuming they're close enough together), or three rounds at #1,
six rounds at #2, and one round at #3, or any other combination you want
to. You're not limited to three-round bursts at all in this kind of
situation.

--
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Message no. 17
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Drones and Weapon Mounts
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 11:31:47 +0200
According to Steadfast, at 23:04 on 8 Jul 99, the word on
the street was...

> Problem here is that AFAIK there are no "official" rules for
> converting Magazine or Clip based Weapons to use belt feeded
> ammunition. Actually I do not know how easy this conversion would be
> as most movies show that an assault rifle does take the ammunition
> from under the barrel into the chamber LMG ans such seem to have the
> belt feed from the side.

I don't think there is really anything against a belt feeding into the
bottom of the gun, if the weapon is designed for this. The main reason for
feed from the side, AFAIK, is that it's easier to reload. Also, there have
been a number of weapons IRL that could be converted between magazine and
belt feed; some had both the belt and magazine feeder at the top (like the
Stoner family), while others had it at the bottom (for instance the H&K
21).

> But I personally do not know jack about such things. Annyway, my
> question is wether or not there are rules to it, and if were. If not
> then it is House Rule Time and I am glad for input, although some ideas
> seem already logic enough.

There are no official rules for it; perhaps in the Cannon Companion, but I
would recommend not counting on anything unless you like being
disappointed :)

As for house rules, you can't just convert a magazine-fed weapon into a
belt-fed one unless it's either been designed for it (like the Stoner and
H&K 21) or somebody makes a conversion kit. In the former case, conversion
is simply done by stripping the weapon and putting in the new feed unit.
In the latter case, either bring the weapon to an armorer, or after
obtaining the conversion kit, make a B/R skill roll against a TN of 6 to 8
or so, I would say.

> My guess too, but annyhow, tell me are there anny rules that do cover
> Jams in SR3rd.?

Nothing that I've found, apart from the usual rules that all ones is a
drastic failure, and will cause explosive ammo to blow up.

--
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E-mails uit het verleden bieden geen garantie voor de toekomst.
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 18
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Drones and Weapon Mounts
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 03:50:33 -0500
:Question: If I'm using full auto, I can fire up to 10 rounds in any
:combination of bursts I choose, right? How about 3, 3, and 3? Is that the
:equivalent of three 3-round bursts in one round (v. the two bursts normally
:allowed)? I never got around to asking my GM...
:
:Keith


Yes, you could do that, but not consecutively at the same target (that
would just be a longer burst). That "+2 / new target" thing would get
annoying on the third target. You could conceivably sweep the third burst
back to the first target, but I'd say it still counts as a "new" target. On
the other hand, you can pump two "normal" three round bursts into a target,
to make sure they stay down, or use one simple to shoot one burst and the
other simple for something else- firing FA is always a complex action, which
can be a hassle.

Mongoose
Message no. 19
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Drones and Weapon Mounts
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 17:07:48 -0400
At 23.04 07-08-99 +0200, you wrote:
>ammunitionproblem arouse after the GM told me that the Assault rifle
>is not designed to take belted ammunition.

Why bother with belted? Use a BIG magazine, like a drum. If height is a
big concern, use a saddle drum (this has little drums on either side of the
magazine). So long as it fits the magazine well, it locks in place, it
feeds reliably and the feed lips don't get dinged, the gun isn't gonig to
care. And drones don't mind hauling a 100 round magazine, so the weight
isn't an issue.


CyberRaven Kevin Dole
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"Briar Rabbit to Briar Fox; I was BORN in that briar patch!"
Message no. 20
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Drones and Weapon Mounts
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 18:46:18 EDT
In a message dated 7/8/1999 12:42:55 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
gurth@******.nl writes:

>
> > A: How far into a building can the Sensors of a Drone/Vehicle actually
> take
> > data from?
>
> No idea, perhaps Jon has some enlightening data on this? :)

Perhaps a suggestion if I might? Directly reduce the "Flux" of the sensors
in question by the Barrier Rating (or, alternatively, half the Flux) to
determine if they are able to penetrate the barrier at all?

-K
Message no. 21
From: Michael & Linda Frankl mlfrankl@*****.msn.com
Subject: Drones and Weapon Mounts
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 22:43:02 -0400
Doc said:
>In SR, though, BF is king...mostly. If you want a nasty gun, you get
>yourself a combat shotgun - and a LOT of recoil absorption.


Agreed, +2 recoil per shot for compensation and the range isn't nearly as
good as that of an assault rifle. If you GM pays attention to ranges in
outdoor combat don't be surprised to find your modifiers stacking up. Heavy
weapon = heavy recoil.

>Or, a sniper rifle. :)


On this one too, if you run around a lot in combat don't be surprised if
your sights are screwed next time you try to use it. I can't remember the
rule at the moment, but I recall that there is a potential misalignment test
based on how many rounds you chugged it around roughly. Anyone remember
where it was specifically?

>*Void drools. "Mmmmm...Waaallltherrrr..."


Seconded.

;)

Mike, aka Smilin' Jack
Message no. 22
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Drones and Weapon Mounts
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 10:10:09 +0100
In article <002801beca7d$eee28d20$9babfed0@********.dnet.net>,
Michael & Linda Frankl <mlfrankl@*****.msn.com> writes
>Doc said:
>>Or, a sniper rifle. :)
>
>On this one too, if you run around a lot in combat don't be surprised if
>your sights are screwed next time you try to use it. I can't remember the
>rule at the moment, but I recall that there is a potential misalignment test
>based on how many rounds you chugged it around roughly. Anyone remember
>where it was specifically?

In the description of the Ranger Arms SM-3 in SR2 and SR3.

I think that's more to do with it being a takedown rifle that dismantles
into a briefcase - while you wouldn't want to casually abuse a L96A1
(British Army issue sniper weapon), the Royal Marines and Parachute
Regiment both use it and it can survive amphibious landings and parachute
drops...


--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 23
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Drones and Weapon Mounts
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 11:51:46 +0200
According to IronRaven, at 17:07 on 9 Jul 99, the word on
the street was...

> Why bother with belted? Use a BIG magazine, like a drum. If height is a
> big concern, use a saddle drum (this has little drums on either side of the
> magazine). So long as it fits the magazine well, it locks in place, it
> feeds reliably and the feed lips don't get dinged, the gun isn't gonig to
> care.

Those are a lot of "ifs," and not all drum magazines are that reliable,
AFAIK. Perhaps a Rule of One result could mean there's a feed malfunction
in the drum -- the gun is fine, but the magazine won't deliver the rounds
properly and so the gun can't fire. OTOH weapon that normally uses belted
ammo might fire a little faster when fed from a drum (though SR doesn't
reflect this).

> And drones don't mind hauling a 100 round magazine, so the weight
> isn't an issue.

The only drawback, assuming you have a magazine that works well, is that
you're still limited to about 100 rounds or so. With belted ammo, the only
limit is on available space.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
E-mails uit het verleden bieden geen garantie voor de toekomst.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 24
From: Michael & Linda Frankl mlfrankl@*****.msn.com
Subject: Drones and Weapon Mounts
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 12:54:37 -0400
Paul said:
>In the description of the Ranger Arms SM-3 in SR2 and SR3.
>
>I think that's more to do with it being a takedown rifle that dismantles
>into a briefcase - while you wouldn't want to casually abuse a L96A1
>(British Army issue sniper weapon), the Royal Marines and Parachute
>Regiment both use it and it can survive amphibious landings and parachute
>drops...


I concur that most weapons in the real world are designed for pretty rough
abuse, but I think here we approach the issue of the "spirit of the rule". I
think it was recognized pretty early on that the sniper rifles do tremendous
amounts of damage and that players would naturally want to use them in
combat if possible. This misalignment rule discourages it and keeps the
usage more balanced.

I would agree with Ironraven that in the team spirit it sure as hell would
be nice to have one player sit in the "god seat" in a run. Someone with a
held action and a sniper rifle can do a whole lot of good for a team.

;)

Mike, aka Smilin' Jack
Message no. 25
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Drones and Weapon Mounts
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 14:36:50 -0500
:I concur that most weapons in the real world are designed for pretty rough
:abuse, but I think here we approach the issue of the "spirit of the rule".
I
:think it was recognized pretty early on that the sniper rifles do
tremendous
:amounts of damage and that players would naturally want to use them in
:combat if possible. This misalignment rule discourages it and keeps the
:usage more balanced.

The Walther wa2100 (or whatever the sniper rifle in SSC is)
mentions in its descriptive text that it does NOT suffer from instability.
I took that to mean that the misalignment rule only applies to the ranger
arms gun, not the Walther. The Barret (never used in our game) also appears
to be ridiculously over-built, for not other purpose than durability (and
maybe recoil).
Then again, lugging around a 5+ foot gun causes some snags- er,
problems- even if it doesn't hurt the gun. :-)

Mongoose
Message no. 26
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Drones and Weapon Mounts
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 19:09:47 EDT
In a message dated 7/10/99 5:53:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time, gurth@******.nl
writes:

> > And drones don't mind hauling a 100 round magazine, so the weight
> > isn't an issue.
>
> The only drawback, assuming you have a magazine that works well, is that
> you're still limited to about 100 rounds or so. With belted ammo, the only
> limit is on available space.


Hey, there's always the 1,000-round belted ammo in SSC. :-) Oh, get it
Explosive, and just cruise through your enemies.





-Twist
Message no. 27
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Drones and Weapon Mounts
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 21:19:10 -0400
At 12.54 07-10-99 -0400, you wrote:
>I concur that most weapons in the real world are designed for pretty rough
>abuse, but I think here we approach the issue of the "spirit of the rule". I

There are equivelent rifles out there. They are acurrate enough (~1 MOA,
not the best, but better than most) so long as they are properly assembled
and maintained. However, their ability degrades each time they are
disassembled, assmebled, and to a lesser degree (although higher than in a
normal rifle) during firing, because they aren't as robust. They are
special purpose weapon, designed to fulfil a very narrow and specilized
role, and to suppliment normal precision rifles, not replace them. This is
how I see the Ranger SM-3, with the Walther 2100 and Remington 1050 being
normal rifles

>think it was recognized pretty early on that the sniper rifles do tremendous
>amounts of damage and that players would naturally want to use them in

That, and when SR was first devised, I don't think they envisioned folks
engaging in overt and semi-overt missions, but more of the garbage that
REALLY hurts corporates- assiassination, espionage, kidnapping and sabotage.

>I would agree with Ironraven that in the team spirit it sure as hell would
>be nice to have one player sit in the "god seat" in a run. Someone with a

<bowing> (OK, so I have an ego <g>)
Use two guys. Equipp them with a good rifle (a Ruger 100 works well most
of the time), an LMG or automatic rifle with plenty of magazines and a
grenade launcher, and either a cannon or some rockets. Thier job is to
support the main team. I generally would stick most of your majikal
support out here.

Besides which, when a Humanis nutcase is standing over you, the ability to
make his last sensory data "Squirrel to Raven, smite this ****" is good for
game play.


CyberRaven Kevin Dole
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"Briar Rabbit to Briar Fox; I was BORN in that briar patch!"
Message no. 28
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Drones and Weapon Mounts
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 21:28:07 -0400
> The only drawback, assuming you have a magazine that works well, is that

You never go in without eqiupment that you yourself tested. There are a
number of drum, saddle drum and snail magazine (the magazine is normal mag,
but it spirals inward, so it loads like a regular magazine, not a drum)
designs that are impecably reliable.
I my limited experince with belt feed systems isn't so positive.

> you're still limited to about 100 rounds or so. With belted ammo, the only

I'm used to dealing with Dobermans- they are kinda low on storage space.
Besides, 100 rounds is the biggest thing that I've seen manufactured, due
to weight and bulk, for rifles and MGs, with the exception of some 120
round saddles made to the M-16 pattern. For aircraft mounted systems that
use helical feed magazines, designers have been able to pack in several
hundred rounds.
There may also be a difference of drone application theory here as well.
I belive in using them as scouts, harrasers and for backup.

>Hey, there's always the 1,000-round belted ammo in SSC. :-) Oh, get it
>Explosive, and just cruise through your enemies.

How to deal with explosive ammunition- take cover, becuase the crap will
blow on the surface. Ball ammo punches though. It is also impossible to
effectively suppress explosive ammo. You can hide the firing signature,
but not the noise that occures when they hit something.


CyberRaven Kevin Dole
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"Briar Rabbit to Briar Fox; I was BORN in that briar patch!"
Message no. 29
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Drones and Weapon Mounts
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 11:13:56 +0200
According to Twist0059@***.com, at 19:09 on 10 Jul 99, the word on
the street was...

> Hey, there's always the 1,000-round belted ammo in SSC. :-) Oh, get it
> Explosive, and just cruise through your enemies.

You can make a million-round belt if you feel like it -- IMHO all ammo
belts in SR can be clipped together or broken down to any desired length.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
E-mails uit het verleden bieden geen garantie voor de toekomst.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 30
From: Dennis Steinmeijer dv8@********.nl
Subject: Drones and Weapon Mounts
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 13:21:59 +0200
Smilin' Jack said:
> Paul said:
> >In the description of the Ranger Arms SM-3 in SR2 and SR3.
> >
> >I think that's more to do with it being a takedown rifle that dismantles
> >into a briefcase - while you wouldn't want to casually abuse a L96A1
> >(British Army issue sniper weapon), the Royal Marines and Parachute
> >Regiment both use it and it can survive amphibious landings and parachute
> >drops...
>
>
> I concur that most weapons in the real world are designed for pretty rough
> abuse, but I think here we approach the issue of the "spirit of the rule".
I
> think it was recognized pretty early on that the sniper rifles do
tremendous
> amounts of damage and that players would naturally want to use them in
> combat if possible. This misalignment rule discourages it and keeps the
> usage more balanced.

If anyone has seen the movie Sabotage starring Marc Dacascos, they would
know what a 14S sniper rifle would be like. I enforce the rule that a sniper
rifle with that kind of power has more recoil than the simple +1 TN for the
second shot. I see it as a single shot weapon that fires bullets the size of
your wrist to the top of your middle finger. It has to be put on a tripod
and bolted down to the floor with a nailgun (or something). The kick a
weapon like that will bring is enormous and someone with a strength of 4
will not be able to hold it just like that. Another option is to put it on a
Gyro mount or something.

Dennis

"Abashed the Devil stood,...and felt how awful Goodness is..."
Message no. 31
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Drones and Weapon Mounts
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 11:09:07 -0400
At 13.21 07-11-99 +0200, you wrote:
>second shot. I see it as a single shot weapon that fires bullets the size of
>your wrist to the top of your middle finger. It has to be put on a tripod
>and bolted down to the floor with a nailgun (or something). The kick a

That would be a a .50 caliber/12.7mm-class round. We are talking baby
assualt cannons here.
Most "sniper" rifles use a full-power military rifle round (7.62 NATO or
7.62x54mmR Russian), while a few use a larger round with more omph (usually
.300 Win Mag, but the .338 Laupa looks nice). Regaurdless, until you get
into "50-country", we are talking about a projectile that is less than
.40cal/10mm, with a cartridge case no more than 2/3 of an inch or so at the
base and about 5.5 inches long overall (case and bullet). That is not a
bullet the from your wrist to the end of your longest finger. Hell, I
don't even think 30mm chain gun ammo fires a projectile that long.
As for the single shot, while it can and has been done, with todays
technology, there is no reason for it outside of extreme-long-range or
anti-material sniping. And even there, the mosre common and popular models
are repeaters.
Is SR today? No, but the parallels are there, particluarly in weapons
technology. I'm figuring that thier 14S rounds fill a .300 Win Mag or
possibly a .338 Luapa role when compaired to the 9S (rougly equiv. to .308
Win/7.62NATO) and 7S (roughly .243 Rem) sporitng rifles.


>will not be able to hold it just like that. Another option is to put it on a
>Gyro mount or something.

Haven't seen your movie, but this is not a rifle of any kind that you are
describing, except maybe a recoilless rifle, and that is called a rifle
because it isn't a smoothbore. That is the only reason why those are
called rifles, and most people today would not feel that that was enough
justification for calling an anti-tank weapon a rifle.

If you don't know, ask someone who does, or do some research. This isn't
a flame. It is a suggestion. You will find that your life will be easier
if you remember it, becuase you won't make a jackass out of yourself as
often. :)



CyberRaven Kevin Dole
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"Briar Rabbit to Briar Fox; I was BORN in that briar patch!"
Message no. 32
From: Dennis Steinmeijer dv8@********.nl
Subject: Drones and Weapon Mounts
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 00:24:52 +0200
> That would be a a .50 caliber/12.7mm-class round. We are talking baby
> assualt cannons here.
> Most "sniper" rifles use a full-power military rifle round (7.62 NATO or
> 7.62x54mmR Russian), while a few use a larger round with more omph
(usually
> .300 Win Mag, but the .338 Laupa looks nice). Regaurdless, until you get
> into "50-country", we are talking about a projectile that is less than
> .40cal/10mm, with a cartridge case no more than 2/3 of an inch or so at
the
> base and about 5.5 inches long overall (case and bullet). That is not a
> bullet the from your wrist to the end of your longest finger. Hell, I
> don't even think 30mm chain gun ammo fires a projectile that long.
> As for the single shot, while it can and has been done, with todays
> technology, there is no reason for it outside of extreme-long-range or
> anti-material sniping. And even there, the mosre common and popular
models
> are repeaters.
> Is SR today? No, but the parallels are there, particluarly in weapons
> technology. I'm figuring that thier 14S rounds fill a .300 Win Mag or
> possibly a .338 Luapa role when compaired to the 9S (rougly equiv. to .308
> Win/7.62NATO) and 7S (roughly .243 Rem) sporitng rifles.
>
>
> >will not be able to hold it just like that. Another option is to put it
on a
> >Gyro mount or something.
>
> Haven't seen your movie, but this is not a rifle of any kind that you are
> describing, except maybe a recoilless rifle, and that is called a rifle
> because it isn't a smoothbore. That is the only reason why those are
> called rifles, and most people today would not feel that that was enough
> justification for calling an anti-tank weapon a rifle.
>
> If you don't know, ask someone who does, or do some research. This isn't
> a flame. It is a suggestion. You will find that your life will be easier
> if you remember it, becuase you won't make a jackass out of yourself as
> often. :)

<flame mode>

Whoa,...have you been in the military or do you have too much free time on
your hands?

</flame mode>

Okay,...seeing that I clearly overlooked a "few" things I won't consider
this a flame. I must say, my ego is hurting! :)

Dennis

"Abashed the Devil stood,...and felt how awful Goodness is..."
Message no. 33
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Drones and Weapon Mounts
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 11:54:25 +0200
According to IronRaven, at 11:09 on 11 Jul 99, the word on
the street was...

> Hell, I don't even think 30mm chain gun ammo fires a projectile that
> long.

*looks over shoulder*
*gets up*
*holds hand next to cartridge*

The projectile is about the length of my index finger :)

(The whole round, casing plus projectile, is about the length of my hand,
BTW.)

I could do better measurements with a ruler, but I don't feel like getting
up again...

> Is SR today? No, but the parallels are there, particluarly in weapons
> technology. I'm figuring that thier 14S rounds fill a .300 Win Mag or
> possibly a .338 Luapa role when compaired to the 9S (rougly equiv. to .308
> Win/7.62NATO) and 7S (roughly .243 Rem) sporitng rifles.

There is AFAIK one place where the caliber of a sniping rifle is
mentioned, and that's in the opening story of Elven Fire -- the SM-3 is of
.655 caliber, according to that. With the old sniping rifle ranges (400 m
max.) that didn't make a hell of a lot of sense, but with the new SR3
range table, it just might...

> Haven't seen your movie, but this is not a rifle of any kind that you are
> describing

Neither have I, but my guess is Dennis has seen an M82 sniper rifle or
equivalent -- for some reason favorite with movie makers, much like Desert
Eagle pistols (and the only movie I've seen where a Desert Eagle actually
made sense was in Austin Powers :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Cooking with the devil, frying down in hell.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 34
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Drones and Weapon Mounts
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 10:27:59 -0400
At 11.54 07-12-99 +0200, you wrote:
>*looks over shoulder*
>*gets up*
>*holds hand next to cartridge*
>
>The projectile is about the length of my index finger :)

Gurth, they let you OWN an anti-tank cannon in the Neatherlands!?! I'm
talking about 30mm, the stuff we use on the Apache, not .30 caliber. If we
are talking about the same thing.....
How hard is it to learn Dutch?

>mentioned, and that's in the opening story of Elven Fire -- the SM-3 is of
>.655 caliber, according to that. With the old sniping rifle ranges (400 m

Cool. I kinda figured that the Whisper family took over the rifle/MG
world when I saw a lot of silencers and the range table, and promptly
redesigned the one from Plastic Warriors. It also fits my interpretation
of the SM-3 as a hitter's weapon, not a field weapon.

>Neither have I, but my guess is Dennis has seen an M82 sniper rifle or

I've fired one- it isn't as big as he was describing, and the recoil on
the Barrets guns is not much worse than a hot slug in a light 12 gauge.

>equivalent -- for some reason favorite with movie makers, much like Desert
>Eagle pistols (and the only movie I've seen where a Desert Eagle actually

Its big, it looks sexy as hell, and the IMI hard chrome is really bright.


CyberRaven Kevin Dole
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"Briar Rabbit to Briar Fox; I was BORN in that briar patch!"
Message no. 35
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Drones and Weapon Mounts
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 19:51:06 +0200
According to IronRaven, at 10:27 on 12 Jul 99, the word on
the street was...

> >*looks over shoulder*
> >*gets up*
> >*holds hand next to cartridge*
> >
> >The projectile is about the length of my index finger :)
>
> Gurth, they let you OWN an anti-tank cannon in the Neatherlands!?!

Of course they do. That is, as long as you're the Air Force squadron that
operates our AH-64s ;)

> I'm talking about 30mm, the stuff we use on the Apache, not .30 caliber.

So was I. I have a 30x113 mm cannon shell standing on shelf behind me,
next to a number of other cartridge cases of various calibers and related
items, including a Russian 40 mm practice grenade. All of it's been fired,
of course. (Technically, a few of the items are illegal because there are
projectiles in the casings, even though they're otherwise empty.)

> If we are talking about the same thing.....
> How hard is it to learn Dutch?

Easy, but then I was brought up speaking it :) At any rate, firearms laws
are _very_ strict here. Not as strict as they've apparently become in the
UK in recent years, but it's nowhere _near_ as easy as in the US to get a
firearm, or even accessories. Empty magazines, for example, are illegal
unless you have a permit for the associated weapon (which means I'm
breaking the law here too, BTW).

> Cool. I kinda figured that the Whisper family took over the rifle/MG
> world when I saw a lot of silencers and the range table, and promptly
> redesigned the one from Plastic Warriors.

You've lost me here...

> It also fits my interpretation of the SM-3 as a hitter's weapon, not a
> field weapon.

That's the impression I got as well, especially because it can be
disassembled and comes with a "standard briefcase." If the text had said a
carrying case, it might have been different, but with a normal-looking
briefcase to store a rifle in, the primary application seems clear enough
to me.

It could be, of course, that there is a military version of the SM-3 as
well, one that can't be disassembled in the same way but is more rugged to
stand up to military use.

> >Neither have I, but my guess is Dennis has seen an M82 sniper rifle or
>
> I've fired one- it isn't as big as he was describing, and the recoil on
> the Barrets guns is not much worse than a hot slug in a light 12 gauge.

Perhaps both of us should find the movie and see what it actually is that
was described :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Cooking with the devil, frying down in hell.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 36
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Drones and Weapon Mounts
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 21:35:44 -0400
At 19.51 07-12-99 +0200, you wrote:
>Of course they do. That is, as long as you're the Air Force squadron that
>operates our AH-64s ;)

Duh, I forgot that you bought some. <g>
I must be getting old, forgetting were that kind of stuff is stored.

>So was I. I have a 30x113 mm cannon shell standing on shelf behind me,

I've never seen one, or even the tech notes on it. (It is a bit bigger
than my usual line of work.) I had thought that was longer than that.

>of course. (Technically, a few of the items are illegal because there are
>projectiles in the casings, even though they're otherwise empty.)

looking around, whistling innocently. ;)

>firearm, or even accessories. Empty magazines, for example, are illegal

OK, my misinterpritation. I only keep ammo for stuff that I use almost
daily in the smae room as the computer, and forget that most folks don't.
Common error that need to remember not to do, thinking that the rest of the
world works like me. <g>

>You've lost me here...

The Whipsers are a family of semi-wildcat, subsonic rounds. The best
known one is the .300 Whisper. It is a necked up .221 Fireball case,
designed to work in an M-16/AR-15 that has had the proper upper reciever
slapped on it (I image that equally modular 5.56mm rifles could be
converted with equal ease, although I've neever seen such conversions.)
without needing to use special magazines or bolts, and therefore not loose
any capacity.
Supposed to hit pretty well, too. The supersonic loading hits a hair
harder than 7.62x39, at least on paper anyways, while the subsonic load is
no wimp either, throwing either a 200 or 220 grain (can't remember which)
slug at just barely below the sound barrier. Supposed to be even quiter
than an MP-5SD, but I want to see a comparision with my own eyes before I
belive it.

>Perhaps both of us should find the movie and see what it actually is that
>was described :)

Grumble, grumble, grumble....
I hate going to the video store. All those punk teenagers..... <g>


CyberRaven Kevin Dole
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"Briar Rabbit to Briar Fox; I was BORN in that briar patch!"

Further Reading

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