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Message no. 1
From: shirogr@*****.com (Shiro BsquLadat)
Subject: drugs and detox
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:55:54 -0800 (PST)
Well, a player from my group suggested this to me:

He wants to use the Detox spell to offset any physical
addiction that drugs would inflict. With this I mean
any drug with a P in its Damage. Mental addiction
would apply as normal and the application of the spell
would also end the effects of the drug. This way he
could use Kamikaze all the time.
The Detox spell says that "Detox relieves the effect
of a drug or poison" and "A single success is
sufficient to eliminate all symptoms."

So what do you say? I don't care if it is too
powerfull, only if it can be done this way.

===="I have no use for people who have learned the limits of the possible"
-Terry Pratchet, The Last Hero

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Message no. 2
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: drugs and detox
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 11:06:58 +0100
According to Shiro BsquLadat, on Wednesday 12 January 2005 01:55 the word
on the street was...

> He wants to use the Detox spell to offset any physical
> addiction that drugs would inflict.

IMHO this wouldn't work -- the spell is designed to remove the effects of
drugs, not just the _negative_ effects of drugs.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Kemen (keemde, h gekeemd): het spelen van computerspelletjes
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 3
From: shadowrunnerdingo@*****.com (Dingo)
Subject: drugs and detox
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 03:24:24 -0800 (PST)
<Snip>
> > He wants to use the Detox spell to offset any
> physical
> > addiction that drugs would inflict.
>
> IMHO this wouldn't work -- the spell is designed to
> remove the effects of
> drugs, not just the _negative_ effects of drugs.

Well, the detox spell would work to remove the
negative effects of drugs, but only the drug that is
currently in effect. Say, Laes, for instance, if the
PC was suffering from the effect of the drug then
Detox would work to remove that effect.

(Hmmm, this would be a good way to mess with PC's who
use combat drugs alot, cast Detox on them while the
drugs are in effect and they will have to 'dose up'
again)

However, just to point this out, The drug is no longer
in effect when this PC wants to use the Detox spell,
The genetic damage has been done and they must either
create a new spell to fix the genetic damage or pay
for it.

According to the detox spell it does not heal or
prevent the damage done by the toxin. But it would
eliminate the "Crash" effect of the loss of Quickness
and Willpower.

So, no, the Detox spell would not work to "Clean" the
addiction, the tolerance, the Edge or the damage after
the Crash, but it would stop the negatives that are
suffered in the crash (the loss of Quickness and
Willpower).

Dingo



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Message no. 4
From: jjvanp@*****.com (Jan Jaap van Poelgeest)
Subject: drugs and detox
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 03:26:10 -0800 (PST)
--- Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:

> According to Shiro BsquLadat, on Wednesday 12
> January 2005 01:55 the word
> on the street was...
>
> > He wants to use the Detox spell to offset any
> physical
> > addiction that drugs would inflict.
>
> IMHO this wouldn't work -- the spell is designed to
> remove the effects of
> drugs, not just the _negative_ effects of drugs.

I guess if this player is just itching to make this
plan work, you could allow him to research a Limited
Detox (Kamikaze) spell (I would require that drugs be
specifically mentioned in such a spell), but the drain
would have to be sufficiently high & harsh to offset
the (ridiculous) benefits. I could see this being
horribly exploited, however, so given that such a
spell is not part of the repertoire of every two-bit
street mage, it should be pretty difficult to
implement.

Perhaps the spell formula has to be written
specifically for a particular person's physique, thus
requiring (difficult&expensive) spell research for
every such an implementation, for every particular
drug that a mage would wish to offset. This besides an
unusual drain calculation, as this is essentially a
sustained Healing spell, since the damage that the
drug is doing to the character's body is dynamically
undone. Perhaps physical drain initially, then a minor
stun drain test for every turn that the spell is
sustained, though I might be too harsh there.

Toys like this would be something that IMC a PC should
earn in mid-level character development through
roleplaying and pursuing the matter in character,
otherwise just about anyone could be doing it, not
just the protagonists of a campaign. By the time that
characters get to sufficiently high (karma) levels to
pull something like this off easily, they oughtn't be
needing to take dirty combat drugs anymore (though
having a powerful PC whose character has grown around
the concept of requiring combat drugs in order to
fight well could be interesting to play).

Cheers,

Jan Jaap

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Message no. 5
From: snicker@*********.net (snicker@*********.net)
Subject: drugs and detox
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:46:55 +0000
Jaap wrote:
>(though
> having a powerful PC whose character has grown around
> the concept of requiring combat drugs in order to
> fight well could be interesting to play).

One of the most interesting characters in a campaign from a LOOooong time ago was the
sniper in the party - one shot kills, always devastating (this was before I found the idea
to put "in combat" penalties on sniping). To bring his character down a little
(to match the rest of the party) I gave him a disadvantage... during a run, he became
infected with a peculiar neurotoxin that could not be "cured" - it was set in
time-release capsules that required a specific chemical to prevent them from decomposing
in his blood stream. I suppose a complete blood filter would have "cured" him -
but he never thought of it.. anyway, the real hazard was that he KNEW he was infected,
part of the run involved finding out what with. What he didn't know was the chemical
counter-agent... After MANY runs later, when he was convinced his character was about to
die, they put some serious nuyen into researching the cure...
salicylic acid - which he got by popping aspirins (yeah, I know the chemistry doesn't
quite work... deal ;) So from there on out, his character always had aspirin and was
constantly popping it - just in case.... We tied a number of exciting points to
adventures when his aspiring container rattled (he started packing it with gauze after
that) or when he got captured and couldn't get his medicine. He finally managed to ask
them for an aspirin - which they gave him - but it was entertaining watching him sweat.

Oh... and the real funny? He was never infected at all. See Escape from LA for the
inspiration for that one! ;) I can be sooooo evil...

*snicker*
Message no. 6
From: Paul.Grosse@***********.com (Paul Grosse)
Subject: drugs and detox
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 12:17:45 -0500
>
> Well, a player from my group suggested this to me:
>
> He wants to use the Detox spell to offset any physical
> addiction that drugs would inflict. With this I mean any drug
> with a P in its Damage. Mental addiction would apply as
> normal and the application of the spell would also end the
> effects of the drug. This way he could use Kamikaze all the time.
> The Detox spell says that "Detox relieves the effect of a
> drug or poison" and "A single success is sufficient to
> eliminate all symptoms."
>
> So what do you say? I don't care if it is too powerful, only
> if it can be done this way.
>

I've always ran it in any game system that a spell (or medical device)
that says it relieves or removes symptoms of a drug or addiction removes
ALL temporary modifiers, good & bad (i.e. str boosts, heightened senses,
physical dependencies). But if the drug caused actual physical or
genetic damage that wasn't repaired.

Paul G.
Message no. 7
From: james@****.uow.edu.au (James Niall Zealey)
Subject: drugs and detox
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 09:08:14 +1100
> Jan Jaap van Poelgeest <jjvanp@*****.com>

> --- Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:
>
>>IMHO this wouldn't work -- the spell is designed to
>>remove the effects of
>>drugs, not just the _negative_ effects of drugs.
>

And it works at any time - so you cast it after (or shortly before) you
crash. Voila - effects of drugs gone from system.

>
> I guess if this player is just itching to make this
> plan work, you could allow him to research a Limited
> Detox (Kamikaze) spell (I would require that drugs be
> specifically mentioned in such a spell), but the drain
> would have to be sufficiently high & harsh to offset
> the (ridiculous) benefits. I could see this being
> horribly exploited, however, so given that such a
> spell is not part of the repertoire of every two-bit
> street mage, it should be pretty difficult to
> implement.
>

Two-bit street mages are only two bit and on the street because they've
got a reason to not be on official books - otherwise they'd have a cushy
job in your local corp.

In other words - while it's possible that a street mage or two might
pick up detox and use it this way, it's not really that likely. Just as
it's not really that likely that a PC will do this either.

What you're suggesting above is "if my characters make up an unusual
tactic that's even slighty effective, I'm perfectly willing to ruin an
entire spell to stop it working".

Frankly, I don't really think this particular tactic is as effective as
some others out there, but it's interesting. Let someone use it - it's
not going to harm your game unless you want to exclude drugs from a game
that includes murder, kidnapping, electronic addiction and the like.
Message no. 8
From: lists@*******.com (Wordman)
Subject: drugs and detox
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:36:37 -0500
On Jan 12, 2005, at 5:08 PM, James Niall Zealey wrote:

>> Jan Jaap van Poelgeest <jjvanp@*****.com>
>
>> --- Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:
>>> IMHO this wouldn't work -- the spell is designed to
>>> remove the effects of drugs, not just the _negative_ effects of
>>> drugs.
>
> And it works at any time - so you cast it after (or shortly before)
> you crash. Voila - effects of drugs gone from system.

You can weasel around this. Technically, when you crash, it is .not.
the effect of the drug; it is the effect of your body's reaction to the
drug's _effects_. For example, a hangover really isn't an effect of
alcohol, it is the effect of a vitamin B deficiency and dehydration
(simplification). Sure, the vitamin B deficiency happened because the
process of metabolizing alcohol burns through vitamin B and water in
your body. If, you cast detox as your buzz was wearing off, most of
this vitamin B and water consumption has already happened. The fact
that remaining traces of alcohol are removed from your body doesn't
make any difference, the vitamin B and water are still gone. You are
still hungover.

Most other drug crashes work similarly, though usually with hormones
instead of vitamins.

Wordman
Message no. 9
From: mrnexx@*********.net (Mr. Nexx)
Subject: drugs and detox
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 17:57:00 -0600
Wordman wrote:

> You can weasel around this. Technically, when you crash, it is .not. the
> effect of the drug; it is the effect of your body's reaction to the
> drug's _effects_.

Of course, the wise wizard who wants to deal with this problem simply
spends some time drug free and develops the spell "Crash Cart", which
allows him to negate the effects of a drug crash by shocking a body back
into a normal state... not an easy thing to do, but probably preferable
to some of the crash and addiction rules.


--
***
Nexx
aka Skaldmark
aka Mark Hall
***
http://www.editors-wastebasket.org/nexx/
***
"We have not even to risk the adventure alone, for the heroes of all
time have gone before us."
-Joseph Campbell
Message no. 10
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: drugs and detox
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:57:41 -0800 (PST)
--- James Niall Zealey <james@****.uow.edu.au> wrote:

> > Jan Jaap van Poelgeest <jjvanp@*****.com>
>
> > --- Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:
> >
> >>IMHO this wouldn't work -- the spell is designed to
> >>remove the effects of
> >>drugs, not just the _negative_ effects of drugs.
> >
>
> And it works at any time - so you cast it after (or shortly before)
> you
> crash. Voila - effects of drugs gone from system.

Sorry, but this is simply nonsensical. I take a drug that ramps up
my attributes for a while... then causes me to crash as I have been
"burning my candle at both ends", so to speak. Now, a spell that
removes what is a foreign substances from my system comes along and
purges the drug's remains. Yay. I can pass a drug test Monday
morning at work. But, the addiction and crash effects of a drug are
NOT actually caused by the drug's presence in my system. Rather,
they are my body's natural reaction to being ridden like a whipped
horse by the substance. Rather than using my body's natural ability
at the edges of my endurance to promote improvement, I have greatly
and artificially superceded the normal bounds of my ability. Muscles
tear, bones bruise, capillaries rupture, many times the normal
quantities of endorphins/electrolytes/etc are used up... removing the
drug residuals does not fix any of that damage or replenish those
chemicals in my body. Long term use of the drug actually causes
permanent damage, as I continually "redline" my body. Because my
body is always in a state of recovery from major stress, I might even
begin to lose some of the physical capability I started with.

> > I guess if this player is just itching to make this
> > plan work, you could allow him to research a Limited
> > Detox (Kamikaze) spell (I would require that drugs be
> > specifically mentioned in such a spell), but the drain
> > would have to be sufficiently high & harsh to offset
> > the (ridiculous) benefits. I could see this being
> > horribly exploited, however, so given that such a
> > spell is not part of the repertoire of every two-bit
> > street mage, it should be pretty difficult to
> > implement.

[SNIP]

> In other words - while it's possible that a street mage or two
> might pick up detox and use it this way, it's not really that >
likely. Just as it's not really that likely that a PC will do this >
either.

Ummm, major nonsense. Kamikaze is 50¥ a dose. For an appreciable
boost. +1 to Body, Quickness, and Willpower. +2 to Strength. +1D6
Intiative. 4 levels of Pain Resistance. Bonuses to attributes
effect Pools (Hello Combat and possible Spell Pool boosts). That is
something you can't begin to accomplish as a spellcaster without
serious nuyen in sustaining foci. Three boost attribute spells, a
boosted reflex spell, a pain resistance spell (ignore those first few
pesky cases of Light Drain, no?)... and a Willpower boost on top of
it. For 50¥ !!!!! Kamekazi carries a damage level of 6M at crash.
So, I am casting Detox at a TN of 6, and a drain of -2 (M). Any and
every street magician with half a brain would be all over this.

For those of you playing along at home, Kamikaze is Availability 5
and Street Index is typically ignored at char gen. It lasts 10-60
minutes, or 200-1200 combat rounds. It is Inhaled and has Immediate
effect. And, oh yea, it does not say anything about the limits to
which the drug can boost attributes. Anyone want to take a side bet
on how many doses the mage's player was planning on having handy to
start the game?

> What you're suggesting above is "if my characters make up an
> unusual tactic that's even slighty effective, I'm perfectly
> willing to ruin an entire spell to stop it working".

Errr... actually I think it is more along the lines of "nice try,
munchkin, but if you want a spell to repair the ravages of long term
drug use/abuse, it is going to have higher drain and is going to be
based on the amount of damage you've done... hit the books and start
inventing".

It might also prompt a "go to wikipedia and spend about a half hour
researching drugs, toxins, addiction, etc. and then reconsider".

> Frankly, I don't really think this particular tactic is as
> effective as some others out there, but it's interesting. Let >
someone use it - it's not going to harm your game unless you want >
to exclude drugs from a game that includes murder, kidnapping, >
electronic addiction and the like.

Call me when your players construct a party with three kamekazi-using
street sams, one mage heavily invested in Detox, and a handful of
drug dealer contacts. What's that? They jack up the equivalent of
multiple pieces of 20-90K of cyber and/or a handful of spells before
every run without a single side effect or drawback??? Awww...

Kind of reminds me of the GM who gave his players access to a formula
for a spell that cured HMHVV completely... and also access to a
formula for synthesized HMHVV that could be used to create a
controlled infection... in the same game... and then complained when
they all turned themselves into vampires all the time for runs.

The player who came up with this might not have been considering the
massive abuse of game balance this idea is. They may not have known
what a poor grasp of science this idea demonstrates. If a player
innocently proposed this idea to me, I would calmly congratulate them
for their creativety (might even give their character a point of
karma), and then point them to the spell design rules armed with
guidelines for about how difficult I felt such a spell should be. If
I was in a good mood. If not, I might just say "ummm, not". This is
an abusive exploit, and not a very plausible one, whether the player
who proposed it realizes it or not.

======Korishinzo
--"Yea, operator, I want a short-term, consequence-free way to pump
all my physical abilities to potentially superhuman levels. Can you
help me? Really?! Only 50 nuyen!!!??? Great! I'll take 1,000."



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Message no. 11
From: shirogr@*****.com (Shiro BsquLadat)
Subject: drugs and detox
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:32:22 -0800 (PST)
--- Ice Heart <korishinzo@*****.com> wrote:

> Sorry, but this is simply nonsensical. I take a
> drug that ramps up
> my attributes for a while... then causes me to crash
> as I have been
> "burning my candle at both ends", so to speak. Now,
> a spell that
> removes what is a foreign substances from my system
> comes along and
> purges the drug's remains. Yay. I can pass a drug
> test Monday
> morning at work. But, the addiction and crash
> effects of a drug are
> NOT actually caused by the drug's presence in my
> system. Rather,
> they are my body's natural reaction to being ridden
> like a whipped
> horse by the substance. Rather than using my body's
> natural ability
> at the edges of my endurance to promote improvement,
> I have greatly
> and artificially superceded the normal bounds of my
> ability. Muscles
> tear, bones bruise, capillaries rupture, many times
> the normal
> quantities of endorphins/electrolytes/etc are used
> up... removing the
> drug residuals does not fix any of that damage or
> replenish those
> chemicals in my body. Long term use of the drug
> actually causes
> permanent damage, as I continually "redline" my
> body. Because my
> body is always in a state of recovery from major
> stress, I might even
> begin to lose some of the physical capability I
> started with.

Actually, I think that something was not made clear:In
order for this to work the player would have to cast
the spell BEFORE the duration of the drug transpired,
otherwise he would suffer or the sideeffects because
of the reason mentioned above. At least that is what
we agreed with the player and it seems totally
justifiable.

> Ummm, major nonsense. Kamikaze is 50¥ a dose. For
> an appreciable
> boost. +1 to Body, Quickness, and Willpower. +2 to
> Strength. +1D6
> Intiative. 4 levels of Pain Resistance. Bonuses to
> attributes
> effect Pools (Hello Combat and possible Spell Pool
> boosts). That is
> something you can't begin to accomplish as a
> spellcaster without
> serious nuyen in sustaining foci. Three boost
> attribute spells, a
> boosted reflex spell, a pain resistance spell
> (ignore those first few
> pesky cases of Light Drain, no?)... and a Willpower
> boost on top of
> it. For 50¥ !!!!! Kamekazi carries a damage level
> of 6M at crash.
> So, I am casting Detox at a TN of 6, and a drain of
> -2 (M). Any and
> every street magician with half a brain would be all
> over this.

So what? Or do you say to your players "if I haven't
thought of that first then you can't have it! HA HA
HA! (evil grin!)".

> For those of you playing along at home, Kamikaze is
> Availability 5
> and Street Index is typically ignored at char gen.
> It lasts 10-60
> minutes, or 200-1200 combat rounds. It is Inhaled
> and has Immediate
> effect. And, oh yea, it does not say anything about
> the limits to
> which the drug can boost attributes. Anyone want to
> take a side bet
> on how many doses the mage's player was planning on
> having handy to
> start the game?

Only one dose would be effective. Multiple doses
wouldn't transfer the benefits. If anyone out there
has a degree or knowledge in medicine, can you tell me
if this is true in the real world? I confess of total
ignorance over the subject.

> Errr... actually I think it is more along the lines
> of "nice try,
> munchkin, but if you want a spell to repair the
> ravages of long term
> drug use/abuse, it is going to have higher drain and
> is going to be
> based on the amount of damage you've done... hit the
> books and start
> inventing".
>
> It might also prompt a "go to wikipedia and spend
> about a half hour
> researching drugs, toxins, addiction, etc. and then
> reconsider".

Nice attitude! You know what? I am sick of people
calling others munchkins just because they have good
ideas that WORK! As a game master I allow everything
in my games that is justifiable, creative and above
all enjoyable! And of course whatever the players
have, the appropriate members of the opposition has
too (within reason: no beat cop has a shotgun armed
with Fireball shells and packs 3 layers of
ruthenium-coated armor.)

> Call me when your players construct a party with
> three kamekazi-using
> street sams, one mage heavily invested in Detox, and
> a handful of
> drug dealer contacts. What's that? They jack up
> the equivalent of
> multiple pieces of 20-90K of cyber and/or a handful
> of spells before
> every run without a single side effect or
> drawback??? Awww...

So what? they and every ganger with a mage in his
gang.Instant balance and with a good reason.

> Kind of reminds me of the GM who gave his players
> access to a formula
> for a spell that cured HMHVV completely... and also
> access to a
> formula for synthesized HMHVV that could be used to
> create a
> controlled infection... in the same game... and then
> complained when
> they all turned themselves into vampires all the
> time for runs.

That is way out of any sense of balance and ruins the
feeling of the game. Not even the Ordus Maximus has
something like this. And besides HMHVV is what could
be called a "magical disease" and
incurable.Nevertheless.if he allowed it then he should
have thought of something to counter it as well, or
have the Ordus on their tail and the game is balanced
again.

> The player who came up with this might not have been
> considering the
> massive abuse of game balance this idea is. They
> may not have known
> what a poor grasp of science this idea demonstrates.
> If a player
> innocently proposed this idea to me, I would calmly
> congratulate them
> for their creativety (might even give their
> character a point of
> karma), and then point them to the spell design
> rules armed with
> guidelines for about how difficult I felt such a
> spell should be. If
> I was in a good mood. If not, I might just say
> "ummm, not". This is
> an abusive exploit, and not a very plausible one,
> whether the player
> who proposed it realizes it or not.

This attitude demonstrates someone who lords it over
the players and believe me, I have been there and know
what it is like!If you are so concerned about game
balance then try coming up with some tricks of your
own (always within the rules and used by the right
people), don't limit their abilities using your power
as a GM.They are the heroes here!Don't make them feel
limited just because you are too lazy to think of some
combos yourself.

> ======> Korishinzo
> --"Yea, operator, I want a short-term,
> consequence-free way to pump
> all my physical abilities to potentially superhuman
> levels.
=== message truncated ==
"Ok, here it i...look out,agents at your right!!"
Tank,operator.


===="I have no use for people who have learned the limits of the possible"
-Terry Pratchet, The Last Hero



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Message no. 12
From: shirogr@*****.com (Shiro BsquLadat)
Subject: drugs and detox
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:35:54 -0800 (PST)
--- snicker@*********.net wrote:

> One of the most interesting characters in a campaign
> from a LOOooong time ago was the sniper in the party
> - one shot kills, always devastating (this was
> before I found the idea to put "in combat" penalties
> on sniping). To bring his character down a little
> (to match the rest of the party)

What do you mean "in combat modifiers"?



===="I have no use for people who have learned the limits of the possible"
-Terry Pratchet, The Last Hero



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Message no. 13
From: snicker@*********.net (Snicker)
Subject: drugs and detox
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:21:45 -0600
At 08:35 PM 1/12/2005, you wrote:

>--- snicker@*********.net wrote:
>
> > One of the most interesting characters in a campaign
> > from a LOOooong time ago was the sniper in the party
> > - one shot kills, always devastating (this was
> > before I found the idea to put "in combat" penalties
> > on sniping). To bring his character down a little
> > (to match the rest of the party)
>
>What do you mean "in combat modifiers"?

Using a sniper rifle during "close combat" (in anything other than "braced
for sniping" mode) will incur penalities. No, I do not remember where I
found it.

Snicker
Message no. 14
From: valeuj@*****.navy.mil (Valeu, John W. EM3(AS40 R-3))
Subject: drugs and detox
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 15:59:34 +1000
>> > One of the most interesting characters in a campaign
>> > from a LOOooong time ago was the sniper in the party
>> > - one shot kills, always devastating (this was
>> > before I found the idea to put "in combat" penalties
>> > on sniping). To bring his character down a little
>> > (to match the rest of the party)
>>
>>What do you mean "in combat modifiers"?

>Using a sniper rifle during "close combat" (in anything other than
"braced
>for sniping" mode) will incur penalities. No, I do not remember where I
>found it.

That's not every Sniper Rifle, just the Ranger Arms SM-3. Though it is a
feesable idea to implement to all sniper rifles.
Message no. 15
From: lists@*******.com (Wordman)
Subject: drugs and detox
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 03:33:10 -0500
On Jan 12, 2005, at 6:57 PM, Mr. Nexx wrote:

> Of course, the wise wizard who wants to deal with this problem simply
> spends some time drug free and develops the spell "Crash Cart", which
> allows him to negate the effects of a drug crash by shocking a body
> back into a normal state... not an easy thing to do, but probably
> preferable to some of the crash and addiction rules.

I would rule that this also cancels any inoculations.
Message no. 16
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: drugs and detox
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 11:06:04 +0100
According to James Niall Zealey, on Wednesday 12 January 2005 23:08 the
word on the street was...

> Two-bit street mages are only two bit and on the street because they've
> In other words - while it's possible that a street mage or two might
> pick up detox and use it this way, it's not really that likely. Just as
> it's not really that likely that a PC will do this either.

I'm not too sure about that. If I were a magician, I'd learn some spells
that would help me in my daily life, rather than ones that wouldn't do me
any good: a Makeover spell would be much more likely to be on my list than
a Manabolt, for example. If I were a magician who does drugs, a Detox
spell would probably come in handy quite a bit.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Kemen (keemde, h gekeemd): het spelen van computerspelletjes
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 17
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: drugs and detox
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 11:10:59 +0100
According to Snicker, on Thursday 13 January 2005 04:21 the word on the
street was...

> >What do you mean "in combat modifiers"?
>
> Using a sniper rifle during "close combat" (in anything other than
> "braced for sniping" mode) will incur penalities. No, I do not remember
> where I found it.

That's a rule specifically for the Ranger Arms SM-3 sniper rifle, in the
SR3 main rulebook. If you're using it in a running firefight, rather than
for precision shots where you can take your time, you roll 2D6 each turn;
if this rolls less than, or equal to, the number of turns, you get a +2 TN
modifier permanently with the weapon.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Kemen (keemde, h gekeemd): het spelen van computerspelletjes
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 18
From: weberm@*******.net (Ubiquitous)
Subject: drugs and detox
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 06:03:27 -0500
At 11:10 AM 1/13/2005 +0100, Gurth wrote:
>According to Snicker, on Thursday 13 January 2005 04:21 the word on the
>street was...

>> >What do you mean "in combat modifiers"?
>>
>> Using a sniper rifle during "close combat" (in anything other than
>> "braced for sniping" mode) will incur penalities. No, I do not
remember
>> where I found it.
>
>That's a rule specifically for the Ranger Arms SM-3 sniper rifle, in the
>SR3 main rulebook. If you're using it in a running firefight, rather than
>for precision shots where you can take your time, you roll 2D6 each turn;
>if this rolls less than, or equal to, the number of turns, you get a +2 TN
>modifier permanently with the weapon.

Hmm, I thought that only applied if, for example, one used it as a club.
--
"Ted, sweetheart...somebody's left a wicker basket with a little baby in it
on our front doorstep."
"Just leave it out there on the stoop, honey. The cats'll get it."
- Red Meat http://www.redmeat.com/redmeat/
Message no. 19
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: drugs and detox
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 12:29:08 +0100
According to Ubiquitous, on Thursday 13 January 2005 12:03 the word on the
street was...

> Hmm, I thought that only applied if, for example, one used it as a club.

AFAIK it applies every time you use the weapon in a firefight, not just if
you hit someone with it. The idea is probably to try and prevent players
from using a 14S weapon as an assault rifle :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Kemen (keemde, h gekeemd): het spelen van computerspelletjes
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 20
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: drugs and detox
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 09:43:06 -0800 (PST)
> Actually, I think that something was not made clear:In
> order for this to work the player would have to cast
> the spell BEFORE the duration of the drug transpired,
> otherwise he would suffer or the sideeffects because
> of the reason mentioned above. At least that is what
> we agreed with the player and it seems totally
> justifiable.

The point is that the spell would remove the effects of the drug,
erasing the modifiers it grants. Detox doesn't target only the bad
effects of a substance. It targets the substance, period. The only
benefit one would gain from Detoxing before the drug's duration ran
out is a shorter crash duration, and perhaps lesser crash penalties.
If they habitually use Kamimaze, they will begin to suffer. Detoxing
early on a regular basis might up the number of doses they can take
before a permanent effect is suffered, but in the end, the piper has
to be paid.

> > Any and every street magician with half a brain would be all
> > over this.

> So what? Or do you say to your players "if I haven't
> thought of that first then you can't have it! HA HA
> HA! (evil grin!)".

No. And the fact that you take that stance in regards to the points
I have raised tells me you likely take it to the opposite extreme,
attempting to slide abuses of rules loopholes by people. I do not
punish my players for creativity. I have given "Good Idea" karma
points for many ideas I have shot down because they violated common
sense, basic science, game balance, or even game mood. You keep
expressing frustration with my attitude towards GMing, indicating a
belief that I am somehow in competition with them. That is not the
case at all. I am objectively committed to making the game world
consistant and believeable. Allowing people to bend or break the
laws of physiology and toxicology just because they thought of a
creative way around the side effects of a potent compound is a direct
attack on the versimilitude of the game world. What's next? I know,
let's use Detox to purge the effects of a Stim patch before the stun
damage comes back. Voila! Instant stun healing. Or even better,
let's allow Detox to protect a mage from potential magic loss through
Stim patch use. Drain is now a worry of the past. These are,
technically, "creative" ideas. Are you going to allow them because
players should have any toys they can imagine?

> > For those of you playing along at home, Kamikaze is
> > Availability 5
> > and Street Index is typically ignored at char gen.
> > It lasts 10-60
> > minutes, or 200-1200 combat rounds. It is Inhaled
> > and has Immediate
> > effect. And, oh yea, it does not say anything about
> > the limits to
> > which the drug can boost attributes. Anyone want to
> > take a side bet
> > on how many doses the mage's player was planning on
> > having handy to
> > start the game?
>
> Only one dose would be effective. Multiple doses
> wouldn't transfer the benefits. If anyone out there
> has a degree or knowledge in medicine, can you tell me
> if this is true in the real world? I confess of total
> ignorance over the subject.

Yes, you are right. Only one dose at a time. But, by buying about a
1000 of them at char gen, bypassing the SI of 5, the mage gets a 50K
replacement for all kinds of cyberware/bioware, or sustaining foci
and spell combos. And with no drawbacks except the need for a very
low Drain spell.

> > Errr... actually I think it is more along the lines
> > of "nice try,
> > munchkin, but if you want a spell to repair the
> > ravages of long term
> > drug use/abuse, it is going to have higher drain and
> > is going to be
> > based on the amount of damage you've done... hit the
> > books and start
> > inventing".
> >
> > It might also prompt a "go to wikipedia and spend
> > about a half hour
> > researching drugs, toxins, addiction, etc. and then
> > reconsider".
>
> Nice attitude! You know what? I am sick of people
> calling others munchkins just because they have good
> ideas that WORK! As a game master I allow everything
> in my games that is justifiable, creative and above
> all enjoyable! And of course whatever the players
> have, the appropriate members of the opposition has
> too (within reason: no beat cop has a shotgun armed
> with Fireball shells and packs 3 layers of
> ruthenium-coated armor.)

And I am sick of people defending exloitation of weaknesses in the
rules as roleplaying! The idea only "works" if you choose to
blatantly disregard the way drugs interact with the human body. End
of fragging debate. I don't have a problem letting the bad guys and
the good guys have the same toys. I don't even mind the good guys
having better toys. But, everyone's toys have to obey certain
contraints of science and common sense. Yes, it is creative to
examine the rules for various methods to obtain more goodies for a
lesser cost. Indeed, it is at the heart of every char gen session we
ever had as immature gamers. Min maxing. How to have the fun
without the side effect? The eternal question of both RPGs and RL.
It is NOT my job as GM to facilitate this quest at my player's whim.
If they want a free lunch, they have to do better than "let's pretend
that psychological addiction and phyiological side-effects work
differently in Shadowrun than in reality so I don't suffer for taking
a potent tailored methamphetamine every I am in combat". Sorry if
that makes me somehow grossly unfair. Actually I am not sorry. What
I am is sick of hearing munchkinism defended as creativity. You want
your PC to take Kamikaze? Fine. There are potential repercussions.
You want to dodge those? Fine. Get to inventing. Because you'll be
the first to have the work-around. Here is your karma for realizing
the potential benefits of combat drugs and considering how to cope
with the cost. And hey, here is another karma for not WASTING MY
TIME with the suggestion that the answer lay in a simple spell and an
ignorance of high school science.

> > Call me when your players construct a party with
> > three kamekazi-using
> > street sams, one mage heavily invested in Detox, and
> > a handful of
> > drug dealer contacts. What's that? They jack up
> > the equivalent of
> > multiple pieces of 20-90K of cyber and/or a handful
> > of spells before
> > every run without a single side effect or
> > drawback??? Awww...
>
> So what? they and every ganger with a mage in his
> gang.Instant balance and with a good reason.

Ahh yes. Cyber becomes a thing of the past and Kamikaze the new
currency of the mean streets. Mages now reign even more supreme, and
never have to do more than purge drugs from their pal's system with a
cheap, easy spell. Sounds balanced to me... not. Balance doesn't
just mean equal. It also means reasonable. Nuking the entire planet
establishes a type of balance, but it also effectively ends the
campaign.

> That is way out of any sense of balance and ruins the
> feeling of the game. Not even the Ordus Maximus has
> something like this. And besides HMHVV is what could
> be called a "magical disease" and
> incurable.Nevertheless.if he allowed it then he should
> have thought of something to counter it as well, or
> have the Ordus on their tail and the game is balanced
> again.

Once again, game balance is not just about escalating both sides in a
conflict evenly. It is also about maintaining a reasonable global
balance and a plausible escalation of everyone's power level who is
not central to the conflict.

> > The player who came up with this might not have been
> > considering the
> > massive abuse of game balance this idea is. They
> > may not have known
> > what a poor grasp of science this idea demonstrates.
> > If a player
> > innocently proposed this idea to me, I would calmly
> > congratulate them
> > for their creativety (might even give their
> > character a point of
> > karma), and then point them to the spell design
> > rules armed with
> > guidelines for about how difficult I felt such a
> > spell should be. If
> > I was in a good mood. If not, I might just say
> > "ummm, not". This is
> > an abusive exploit, and not a very plausible one,
> > whether the player
> > who proposed it realizes it or not.
>
> This attitude demonstrates someone who lords it over
> the players and believe me, I have been there and know
> what it is like!If you are so concerned about game
> balance then try coming up with some tricks of your
> own (always within the rules and used by the right
> people), don't limit their abilities using your power
> as a GM.They are the heroes here!Don't make them feel
> limited just because you are too lazy to think of some
> combos yourself.

"Try coming up with some tricks of my own"? Are you seriously
suggesting that the GM look for weak spots in the rules to exploit
against the players?!? I work pretty hard at not letting online
conversations bother me, but I have had enough of this one. You are
basically accusing me of being an abitrary and petty game master on
the strength of my argument against the plausibility of your
submitted scenario. So, in other words, no matter how strongly
rooted in ration my argument is, it amounts to "lording it over"
others and abusing my status as GM because I disagree with your shaky
logic in allowing it in the first place? Okay. Consider my input on
this thread retracted. I thought you wanted other people's opinion
when you posted asked "how does this idea sound?". Since what you
apparently wanted was "kudos on your splendid way of dodging the side
effects of kamikaze", I replied in error. Play on. It is your game,
not mine.

======Korishinzo
--wanders off to do something useful



> > ======> > Korishinzo
> > --"Yea, operator, I want a short-term,
> > consequence-free way to pump
> > all my physical abilities to potentially superhuman
> > levels.
> === message truncated ==>
> "Ok, here it i...look out,agents at your right!!"
> Tank,operator.
>
>
> ====> "I have no use for people who have learned the limits of the
> possible"
> -Terry Pratchet, The Last Hero
>
>
>
> __________________________________
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> Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today!
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>
>
>




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Message no. 21
From: loneeagle@********.co.uk (Lone Eagle)
Subject: drugs and detox
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 22:18:51 +0000
At 12:57 AM 1/13/2005, Korishinzo wrote:
<Snip>
>The player who came up with this might not have been considering the
>massive abuse of game balance this idea is. They may not have known
>what a poor grasp of science this idea demonstrates. If a player
>innocently proposed this idea to me, I would calmly congratulate them
>for their creativety (might even give their character a point of
>karma),

Bast would like to suggest that exact same thing ;-p


--
Lone Eagle
"Hold up lads, I got an idea."

www.wyrmtalk.co.uk - Please be patient, this site is under construction

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Message no. 22
From: james@****.uow.edu.au (James Niall Zealey)
Subject: drugs and detox
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:56:45 +1100
> Ice Heart <korishinzo@*****.com>
>
>>>>IMHO this wouldn't work -- the spell is designed to
>>>>remove the effects of
>>>>drugs, not just the _negative_ effects of drugs.
>>>
>>And it works at any time - so you cast it after (or shortly before)
>>you
>>crash. Voila - effects of drugs gone from system.
>
> Sorry, but this is simply nonsensical. I take a drug that ramps up
> my attributes for a while... then causes me to crash as I have been
> "burning my candle at both ends", so to speak. Now, a spell that
> removes what is a foreign substances from my system comes along and
> purges the drug's remains.

Except that's NOT what the spell does. The spell says it does that, but
then goes on to say "the drug stops doing stuff to the target". It
doesn't say "the victim is immediately subject to a crash" or "all the
benefits go, but the penalties stay". It's magic, and when it explains
it's immediate effects in such a clear way, I fail to see how you can
decide to negate that by suddenly applying science. This is the
equivalent of saying "when you cast a flamethrower spell, energy is
conserved, so you die of brain death when your body temperature
uniformly drops 2 degrees centigrade to fuel it"

> Ummm, major nonsense. Kamikaze is 50¥ a dose. For an appreciable
> boost. +1 to Body, Quickness, and Willpower. +2 to Strength. +1D6
> Intiative. 4 levels of Pain Resistance. Bonuses to attributes
> effect Pools (Hello Combat and possible Spell Pool boosts). That is
> something you can't begin to accomplish as a spellcaster without
> serious nuyen in sustaining foci. Three boost attribute spells, a
> boosted reflex spell, a pain resistance spell (ignore those first few
> pesky cases of Light Drain, no?)... and a Willpower boost on top of
> it. For 50¥ !!!!! Kamekazi carries a damage level of 6M at crash.
> So, I am casting Detox at a TN of 6, and a drain of -2 (M). Any and

Do people even use boost attribute spells? Or increase reflex +1d6 spells?

Does this level of modification make much of a difference?

The answer? Probably not a lot. Really. If your guy's are set up for an
assault, they've taken a dose and are a bit tougher. If not, they waste
one of their crucial first actions taking the dose - actions which could
gain them cover, kill the threat before it starts, or otherwise save
their asses, which a +1 to a few stats and some pain resistance probably
won't do.

I've used NPC's on combat drugs before (you know - the disposable kind
who don't care about the aftereffects, like lonestar cops :)) - it
hasn't made that much of a difference. As always - who jumps who, who
has effective tactics, and who controlled the turf ahead of time are the
key factors.

> every street magician with half a brain would be all over this.
>

Any and every street magician with half a brain has a nice, cushy,
corporate job where his all-but unique talents make him anything but a
disposable sarariman. If we're talking about the cold, cool, logical
thing to do, running is not it.

Hence - using the most effective tactic regardless of appearances is not
going to be the norm. Picking up inoffensive spells like detox is not
going to be the norm. All the wizzies I've seen in the hands of players
have generally had to be pushed to even take heal or treat, and IMHO,
the ability to get someone back on their feet after a deadly wound is
far superior to getting their stats up a little bit.

> For those of you playing along at home, Kamikaze is Availability 5
> and Street Index is typically ignored at char gen. It lasts 10-60
> minutes, or 200-1200 combat rounds. It is Inhaled and has Immediate
> effect. And, oh yea, it does not say anything about the limits to
> which the drug can boost attributes. Anyone want to take a side bet
> on how many doses the mage's player was planning on having handy to
> start the game?
>

And IIRC, overdose levels are entirely up to the DM - am I right?

>
> Errr... actually I think it is more along the lines of "nice try,
> munchkin, but if you want a spell to repair the ravages of long term
> drug use/abuse, it is going to have higher drain and is going to be
> based on the amount of damage you've done... hit the books and start
> inventing".
>

No - the response was to "detox doesn't work how it says it does, and
you need a seperate spell for each drug". Which makes the spell
fundamentally useless unless you intend to create characters centred
around abuse of chemical compounds - which was exactly what you're
trying to prevent.

> Call me when your players construct a party with three kamekazi-using
> street sams, one mage heavily invested in Detox, and a handful of
> drug dealer contacts. What's that? They jack up the equivalent of
> multiple pieces of 20-90K of cyber and/or a handful of spells before
> every run without a single side effect or drawback??? Awww...
>

And to be honest - it's not going to make a difference. It's simply not.
In all my years of playing and GMing shadowrun, there's not been a time
when superior gear, magic, stats or skills has made anywhere near the
same amount of difference as a good plan, good tactics and the element
of surprise.

> Kind of reminds me of the GM who gave his players access to a formula
> for a spell that cured HMHVV completely... and also access to a
> formula for synthesized HMHVV that could be used to create a
> controlled infection... in the same game... and then complained when
> they all turned themselves into vampires all the time for runs.
>

That would be the whole "they can't die" part of it... it's a feature
that a player simply cannot get without being a shifter (which means you
have almost nothing else). Once a shifter gets a bit of karma into them,
they're really, really dangerous.
Message no. 23
From: snicker@*********.net (snicker@*********.net)
Subject: drugs and detox
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 14:32:06 +0000
Gurth quoted:
>
> According to Ubiquitous, on Thursday 13 January 2005 12:03 the word on the
> street was...
>
> > Hmm, I thought that only applied if, for example, one used it as a club.
>
> AFAIK it applies every time you use the weapon in a firefight, not just if
> you hit someone with it. The idea is probably to try and prevent players
> from using a 14S weapon as an assault rifle :)

Yeah - that was pretty much the issue. FYI, it was a Ranger ARMS - but i made it a
standard rule for sniper-class weapons. I don't think I made it permanent, though - just
a -2 or -4 for firing "from the hip". Otherwise, everyone in the group would
have been carrying sniper rifles, and sawed-off sniper rifles, and sniper pistols... and..
well you get the point ;)

*snicker*
Message no. 24
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: drugs and detox
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 10:18:07 -0800 (PST)
> Except that's NOT what the spell does. The spell says it does that,
> but
> then goes on to say "the drug stops doing stuff to the target". It
> doesn't say "the victim is immediately subject to a crash" or "all
> the
> benefits go, but the penalties stay". It's magic, and when it
> explains
> it's immediate effects in such a clear way, I fail to see how you
> can
> decide to negate that by suddenly applying science. This is the
> equivalent of saying "when you cast a flamethrower spell, energy is
>
> conserved, so you die of brain death when your body temperature
> uniformly drops 2 degrees centigrade to fuel it"

Okay, let me try explaining my point from a different perspective.
The point of the Detox spell is to remove harmful chemicals from
one's system. Suppose a PC is exposed to a neuro-toxin that drops
their Intelligence and Quickness by 1, their Willpower by 2, and
causes them to suffer double Injury modifiers for the toxin's
duration. When the drug wears off, they get back a point of
Intelligence and Quickness, two points of Willpower, and their
Injuries modifiers are halved (back to normal). The return of these
attribute points is not a function of the toxin, but rather a
function of it dissipating. Casting Detox before the toxin wears off
will not leave you permanently missing those attribute points. It
will bring you to a post-drugged state sooner, but you still get the
benefits of the post-drugged state (the return of your full
attributes).
Now suppose that this neuro-toxin inhibited dopamine and endorphin
reception for it's duration, and when it wore off, you didn't just
get your attributes back to normal. Suppose you also got a boost of
Pain Resistance, and a +1 bonus to Willpower and Charisma for a few
hours, because you feel so much better, right down to a reflexive
physiological level. This is the "crash" period, as your body
equalizes its neuro- and bio-chemical status. Casting Detox will not
cause this phase to be skipped either, although it may shorten the
duration of the bonuses, and/or lessen the bonuses, as you were
drugged for less time.
In the case of a combat drug, the toxin provides a boost, and the
crash brings penalties, but the exact same principles apply. The
crash is not a characteristic of the toxin, but a characteristic of
the user's body and mind. Purging the drug early may shorten the
crash and/or ameliorate its penalties, but the crash will happen.
Addiction, likeise, is a trait of the user, not the drug. Detox
can't stop addiction, only remove the substance you are addicted to.
In the case of a physical addiction, a la heroin, Detox might even
kill the recipient, as they enter fatal withdrawal.
This brings me back to my original contention with the proposed idea
for avoiding crash and addiction. You need a new spell, period. YOu
need a spell that repairs physiological damage caused as a side
effect of the boost, and replenishes exhausted reserves of
vitamins/neurochemicals/etc. It would be some sort of health spell,
of permanent duration. Its TN would likely be based on how much
damage the drug had wrought to the user's system, and might get
harder to cast on a given subject the more times they used the drug.
Drain would probably be fixed, I'd guess somewhere in the range of +0
to +2 (S). It would be functional for any chemically induced damage.
Yet another spell would be needed to combat addiction, if any of the
addiction were psychological. Some sort of Mental Manipulation spell
would be required, probably a fairly easy one in the scheme of
things. I imagine that the Betty Ford Clinic's of the SR setting
have mages on staff to treat the wealthy clients trying to dry out
from various substance abuses. Such spells might already exist.
Those mages probably have Detox too. A PC mage who got into drug use
might actually know Detox, Abate Addiction, and Treat Withdrawal, and
Cure Side Effects at low force for those times when he needed to
straighten out or avoid a crash. Perhaps purchased via his fixer
from a Betty Ford doctor with wavering company loyalty.
I never said the player's idea for dodging the negative repercussion
of Kamikaze use with magic was the problem. It is a good idea, and
worthy of a karma reward. They just stopped way too soon in thinking
through how to do it. And ended up with a solution that was both far
too cheap to be balanced, and not logical in its composition.

> Do people even use boost attribute spells? Or increase reflex +1d6
> spells?
>
> Does this level of modification make much of a difference?
>
> The answer? Probably not a lot. Really. If your guy's are set up
> for an
> assault, they've taken a dose and are a bit tougher. If not, they
> waste
> one of their crucial first actions taking the dose - actions which
> could
> gain them cover, kill the threat before it starts, or otherwise
> save
> their asses, which a +1 to a few stats and some pain resistance
> probably
> won't do.
>
> I've used NPC's on combat drugs before (you know - the disposable
> kind
> who don't care about the aftereffects, like lonestar cops :)) - it
> hasn't made that much of a difference. As always - who jumps who,
> who
> has effective tactics, and who controlled the turf ahead of time
> are the
> key factors.

I recently had a team of several 120 BP shadowrunners take on a
veteran 130 BP cop and two rookie 90 BP cops (NPC BP amounts are
approximate within 5 BP). Three things gave the cops a resounding
edge in the battle. The cops worked together. The runners didn't.
The cops had Jazz. The cops all had extra actions they would not
have had otherwise. Being marginally smart and possessing certain
instincts for self-preservation, the cops used their extra actions
for things like tactics, hiding, communicating, and observing what
the frag was going on. Those relatively cheap combat drugs granted
an undeniable edge that would have cost about 40K to emulate with
cyberware. It made up for 30% of the reason the runners were
defeated. No matter how good your tactics, someone who gets three
actions to your one can often salvage a victory. Conversely, no
matter how superior your ware, someone who uses their brain will
often beat you. The drugs leveled the playing field enough that
brains, not gear or stats, carried the day. Without the drugs, the
runners could have falled back on shear superiority of
equipment/stats, and likely prevailed.


> > every street magician with half a brain would be all over this.

> Any and every street magician with half a brain has a nice, cushy,
> corporate job where his all-but unique talents make him anything
> but a
> disposable sarariman. If we're talking about the cold, cool,
> logical
> thing to do, running is not it.

Errr, any street magician who gets a cushy corp job ceases to be a
street magician and drops out of the scope of our conversation. ;)

> Hence - using the most effective tactic regardless of appearances
> is not
> going to be the norm. Picking up inoffensive spells like detox is
> not
> going to be the norm. All the wizzies I've seen in the hands of
> players
> have generally had to be pushed to even take heal or treat, and
> IMHO,
> the ability to get someone back on their feet after a deadly wound
> is
> far superior to getting their stats up a little bit.

I have never made a magician PC without either Treat or Heal. I also
tend to have at least a 3 or 4 in Biotech for most of my mages.
First Aid, then Heal. Detox is usually aquired later in their
career, but it a definate goal. Fashion or Makeover is often on the
same wish list for early aquisition if I don't start with them. A
day job at a ritzy salon is great cover for a runner mage.

> And IIRC, overdose levels are entirely up to the DM - am I right?

Haven't looked into that. I was not talking about how many doses the
PC was going to take at once. I was referring to how many they'd
stock up on, to bypass any GM plan to make the drug hard to get.

> No - the response was to "detox doesn't work how it says it does,
> and
> you need a seperate spell for each drug". Which makes the spell
> fundamentally useless unless you intend to create characters
> centred
> around abuse of chemical compounds - which was exactly what you're
> trying to prevent.

See, I was not saying anything about a seperate Detox spell for each
chemical. I was talking about a completely seperate, and equally
versatile spell to cast after you Detoxed, to rebalance your body
("heal" the crash).

> And to be honest - it's not going to make a difference. It's simply
> not.
> In all my years of playing and GMing shadowrun, there's not been a
> time
> when superior gear, magic, stats or skills has made anywhere near
> the
> same amount of difference as a good plan, good tactics and the
> element
> of surprise.

See above. Superiority is superiority, be it an advantage of arms or
planning. The side with a clear edge has just that, a clear edge.
You can offset a defficiency in one by investing heavily in the
other, but that suffers a process of diminishing returns.

======Korishinzo
--goes off to create spells for BettyFord2060, Inc.



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Message no. 25
From: maxnoel_fr@*****.fr (Max Noel)
Subject: drugs and detox
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 23:02:09 +0000
On Jan 14, 2005, at 18:18, Ice Heart wrote:

> I recently had a team of several 120 BP shadowrunners take on a
> veteran 130 BP cop and two rookie 90 BP cops (NPC BP amounts are
> approximate within 5 BP). Three things gave the cops a resounding
> edge in the battle. The cops worked together. The runners didn't.
> The cops had Jazz. The cops all had extra actions they would not
> have had otherwise. Being marginally smart and possessing certain
> instincts for self-preservation, the cops used their extra actions
> for things like tactics, hiding, communicating, and observing what
> the frag was going on. Those relatively cheap combat drugs granted
> an undeniable edge that would have cost about 40K to emulate with
> cyberware. It made up for 30% of the reason the runners were
> defeated. No matter how good your tactics, someone who gets three
> actions to your one can often salvage a victory. Conversely, no
> matter how superior your ware, someone who uses their brain will
> often beat you. The drugs leveled the playing field enough that
> brains, not gear or stats, carried the day. Without the drugs, the
> runners could have falled back on shear superiority of
> equipment/stats, and likely prevailed.

I was there. I echo that. :)
(which reminds me... gotta do something)

-- Wild_Cat
maxnoel_fr at yahoo dot fr -- ICQ #85274019
"Look at you hacker... A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting
and sweating as you run through my corridors... How can you challenge a
perfect, immortal machine?"
Message no. 26
From: u.alberton@*****.com (Bira)
Subject: drugs and detox
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 09:15:39 -0200
> So what do you say? I don't care if it is too
> powerfull, only if it can be done this way.

You could use a bunch of fiddly science facts to argue either way
wether the spell would remove physical addiction or not, so it all
comes down to what you're comfortable with. If you think just removing
physical addiction is a bit too much, you might want to increase the
TN for mental addiction - after all, the character just got a whole
lot more confident that he can use drugs and quit anytime he wants!

Wheter it remained or not, I'd say the spell ends the effects of the
drug with no crash (or removes the crash penalties if the effects of
the drug have already ended).

I think doing thigs this way is more interesting. It implies that
there's a whole "junkie culture" around the Detox spell, and that's
fun to imagine. And I don't think it's unbalancing, either - it
actually makes combat drugs less effective, because Detox is a spell
you can use on other people.

So, if the PCs run across a bunch of Jazzed-up enemies, the mage can
use Detox to take away their benefits. At the very least they'd have
to spend some extra time using the drug again.

In the same way, if a bunch of drug-happy PCs come across a group of
oponnents including a mage who knows Detox, the fight is going to be
harder than expected.

Even better - someone could develop a "Crash" spell, which ends the
effects of the drug and brings about the crash. Pretty brutal for that
guy who stocks up on Kamikaze.

Since you can't Detox cyberware, and dispelling enhancement spells is
much harder, the people who have chosen to spend the meganuyen and
Karma needed to have these things still have an edge against the
druggies.

--
Bira
http://compexplicita.blogspot.com
Message no. 27
From: weberm@*******.net (Ubiquitous)
Subject: drugs and detox
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 07:43:47 -0500
At 06:36 PM 1/12/2005 -0500, Wordman wrote:
>On Jan 12, 2005, at 5:08 PM, James Niall Zealey wrote:

>> And it works at any time - so you cast it after (or shortly before)
>> you crash. Voila - effects of drugs gone from system.
>
>You can weasel around this. Technically, when you crash, it is .not.
>the effect of the drug; it is the effect of your body's reaction to the
>drug's _effects_. For example, a hangover really isn't an effect of
>alcohol, it is the effect of a vitamin B deficiency and dehydration
>(simplification). Sure, the vitamin B deficiency happened because the
>process of metabolizing alcohol burns through vitamin B and water in
>your body. If, you cast detox as your buzz was wearing off, most of
>this vitamin B and water consumption has already happened. The fact
>that remaining traces of alcohol are removed from your body doesn't
>make any difference, the vitamin B and water are still gone. You are
>still hungover.

But doesn't the spell description state it's used to cure hangovers?
--
"Ted, sweetheart...somebody's left a wicker basket with a little baby in it
on our front doorstep."
"Just leave it out there on the stoop, honey. The cats'll get it."
- Red Meat http://www.redmeat.com/redmeat/

Further Reading

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Thwap!