Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Czar Eggbert <czregbrt@*********.EDU>
Subject: Dual Nature
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 23:36:41 -0600
I have a question regarding dual nature critters that came from a game I
was in. Can you ground spells through them as if they were astral
perceiveing ?
Message no. 2
From: Tim Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dual Nature
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 22:51:02 -0800
On Sun, 24 Nov 1996, Czar Eggbert wrote:

> I have a question regarding dual nature critters that came from a game I
> was in. Can you ground spells through them as if they were astral
> perceiveing ?
>

IMHO..."HELL YES!!"

Dual means *active* on BOTH planes...:)

~Tim
Message no. 3
From: Brian W Allison <ballison@*******.WAM.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dual Nature
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 07:04:47 -0500
On Sun, 24 Nov 1996, Czar Eggbert wrote:

> I have a question regarding dual nature critters that came from a game I
> was in. Can you ground spells through them as if they were astral
> perceiveing ?

And the Laord sayeth thusly:

"Yes, fry their hoops!"


SRII page 150, left column, first para.



Brian W. Allison

Computer Scientist Vocalist Would-be Poet Bicycler Scuba Diver
Hacker(0xca) Nerd(79) GenX(21) #include <witticism.h>
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~ballison

--- Unsolicited Commercial E-Mail is not welcome at this account ---
--- and will result in a US$500 fee per US Code Title 47 Sec 227. ---
Message no. 4
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Dual Nature
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 12:13:14 +0100
Czar Eggbert said on 23:36/24 Nov 96...

> I have a question regarding dual nature critters that came from a game I
> was in. Can you ground spells through them as if they were astral
> perceiveing ?

Yes, you can.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
You can't clean the toilet, Neil! It'll lose all its character!
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 5
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Dual Nature
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 11:50:03 +0000
|
|I have a question regarding dual nature critters that came from a game I
|was in. Can you ground spells through them as if they were astral
|perceiveing ?
|

Can't see why not....
In fact, it's a tactic used by mages with a few low force elementals at
their command...

"Manifest..."
<The elemental appears>
BOOM!

One dead elemental and an injured bunch of shadowrunners, or guards....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| |
|Andrew Halliwell | "ARSE! GERLS!! DRINK! DRINK! DRINK!!!" |
|Principal subjects in:- | "THAT WOULD BE AN ECUMENICAL MATTER!...FECK!!!! |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | - Father Jack in "Father Ted"
|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! >*SULK*<|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 6
From: Midn Daniel O Fredrikson <m992148@****.NAVY.MIL>
Subject: Re: Dual Nature
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 07:35:49 -0500
Yep, but they are both astral and physical, so they should be able to
attack the spell in transit.

On Sun, 24 Nov 1996, Czar Eggbert wrote:

> I have a question regarding dual nature critters that came from a game I
> was in. Can you ground spells through them as if they were astral
> perceiveing ?
>
Message no. 7
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Dual Nature
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:27:12 +0000
On 25 Nov 96 at 7:35, Midn Daniel O Fredrikson wrote:
[grounding through dual natured creatures]
> Yep, but they are both astral and physical, so they should be able to
> attack the spell in transit.
Debateable at best: SRII, p. 148: "A magician in astral space cannot cast a
spell at another spell, but he can cast one at any other astral being. Such a
spell cannot be intercepted, and only spells that would affect the thing or
being physically will work."

And above this: SRII, p. 148: "In order to intercept a spell, an astrally
projecting character must be aware of the spellcasting /and/ have a Delayed
Action. An astrally perceiving character cannot move his physical form fast
enough to intercept the spell."

To see how the above statement belongs to dual beings, we have to look at the
Grimoire, p. 86: "Dual beings are always active on both the astral and
physical planes, just like a magician using astral perception."

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |'The rich control |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| The Government, |
| \___ __/ | | The Media, |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | And the Law!' |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | - Queensryche |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 8
From: "M. Gotthard" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Dual Nature
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:45:55 +1000
> > I have a question regarding dual nature critters that came from a game I
> > was in. Can you ground spells through them as if they were astral
> > perceiveing ?
>
> And the Laord sayeth thusly:
>
> "Yes, fry their hoops!"
>

*sigh* All those poor little hell hounds.

BTW If a dragon is astrally percieving, it's going to have to use spells
to hit an astral mage (unless the mage is stupid)... Does the dragon take
physical drain due to having astral active, or stun drain from being
attached to a meat body?

Bleach
Message no. 9
From: "M. Gotthard" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Dual Nature
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:48:23 +1000
> |I have a question regarding dual nature critters that came from a game I
> |was in. Can you ground spells through them as if they were astral
> |perceiveing ?
> |
>
> Can't see why not....
> In fact, it's a tactic used by mages with a few low force elementals at
> their command...
>
> "Manifest..."
> <The elemental appears>
> BOOM!
>
> One dead elemental and an injured bunch of shadowrunners, or guards....
>
Ummm, yeah. I'd hate to have an elemental go free on me if I did that on
a regular basis.... Elementals have a decent intelligence (and hence
possbily a society of sorts), and I'm sure that they don't take kindly to
being fried.

Not that you *can't* do it;' it's just not a good idea on a regular basis,
because you'll probably piss the GM off, and then an elemental will go
free on you.

Bleach
Message no. 10
From: Brian W Allison <ballison@*******.WAM.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dual Nature
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:48:38 -0500
On Tue, 26 Nov 1996, M. Gotthard wrote:

> BTW If a dragon is astrally percieving, it's going to have to use spells
> to hit an astral mage (unless the mage is stupid)... Does the dragon take
> physical drain due to having astral active, or stun drain from being
> attached to a meat body?

It's not Astrally Projecting? Then the Drain is normal Drain.

Drain is automatically Physical when the entity's aura is not attached
to its body.



Brian W. Allison

Computer Scientist Vocalist Would-be Poet Bicycler Scuba Diver
Hacker(0xca) Nerd(79) GenX(21) #include <witticism.h>
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~ballison

--- Unsolicited Commercial E-Mail is not welcome at this account ---
--- and will result in a US$500 fee per US Code Title 47 Sec 227. ---
Message no. 11
From: Brian W Allison <ballison@*******.WAM.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dual Nature
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:49:44 -0500
On Tue, 26 Nov 1996, M. Gotthard wrote:
[using an elemental to gound a spell]

> Ummm, yeah. I'd hate to have an elemental go free on me if I did that on
> a regular basis.... Elementals have a decent intelligence (and hence
> possbily a society of sorts), and I'm sure that they don't take kindly to
> being fried.

If a spell grounds through a force 1 elemental... the elemental is
probably going to be destroyed in the process.



Brian W. Allison

Computer Scientist Vocalist Would-be Poet Bicycler Scuba Diver
Hacker(0xca) Nerd(79) GenX(21) #include <witticism.h>
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~ballison

--- Unsolicited Commercial E-Mail is not welcome at this account ---
--- and will result in a US$500 fee per US Code Title 47 Sec 227. ---
Message no. 12
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Dual Nature
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 12:25:24 +0100
M. Gotthard said on 8:45/26 Nov 96...

> BTW If a dragon is astrally percieving, it's going to have to use spells
> to hit an astral mage (unless the mage is stupid)... Does the dragon take
> physical drain due to having astral active, or stun drain from being
> attached to a meat body?

I only make drain physical if the character is astrally projecting; when
only perceiving, it's stun.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Silent again
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 13
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Dual Nature
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 13:29:13 +0000
|> "Manifest..."
|> <The elemental appears>
|> BOOM!
|>
|> One dead elemental and an injured bunch of shadowrunners, or guards....
|>
|Ummm, yeah. I'd hate to have an elemental go free on me if I did that on
|a regular basis.... Elementals have a decent intelligence (and hence
|possbily a society of sorts), and I'm sure that they don't take kindly to
|being fried.
|
|Not that you *can't* do it;' it's just not a good idea on a regular basis,
|because you'll probably piss the GM off, and then an elemental will go
|free on you.

Not if you only use force one elementals for this tactic....
(It's easy enough to ground through, and the Elemental isn't powerful enough
to break free..... I don't think... I can't remember the rules on that, but
I think it's force related....)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| |
|Andrew Halliwell | "ARSE! GERLS!! DRINK! DRINK! DRINK!!!" |
|Principal subjects in:- | "THAT WOULD BE AN ECUMENICAL MATTER!...FECK!!!! |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | - Father Jack in "Father Ted"
|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! >*SULK*<|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 14
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Dual Nature
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 17:02:22 +0000
[snip Dragon/Drain]
> It's not Astrally Projecting? Then the Drain is normal Drain.
>
> Drain is automatically Physical when the entity's aura is not attached
> to its body.
No.
SRII, p.148: ''When a magician casts spells in astral space, Drain always
causes Physical damage, regardless of the spell's Force rating.''

Could mean projecting magicians only, or any magician who casts a spell into
astral space.

Sascha
--
+---___---------+------------------------------------+------------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |Things that try to look |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@ | like things often do |
| \___ __/ | Informatik.Uni-Oldenburg.de | look more like things |
|==== \_/ ======|*Wearing hats is just a way of life*| than things. Well known|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | fact. - E.Weatherwax |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 15
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Dual Nature
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 17:02:22 +0000
On 26 Nov 96 at 8:45, M. Gotthard wrote:
[snip grounding through dual natured beings]
> BTW If a dragon is astrally percieving, it's going to have to use spells
> to hit an astral mage (unless the mage is stupid)... Does the dragon take
> physical drain due to having astral active, or stun drain from being
> attached to a meat body?
As dragons are dual natured beings, see:
Grim, p.86: ''Dual beings are always active on both the astral and physical
planes, just like a magician using astral perception.''

If a percepting magician does receive physical damage, is debateable, as...
SRII, p.148: ''When a magician casts spells in astral space, Drain always
causes Physical damage, regardless of the spell's Force rating.''
...and it is not clear if a magician is "in astral space" only when
projecting, or also when perceiving astrally.

*shrug* Anyone else who found more references?
Message no. 16
From: Brian W Allison <ballison@*******.WAM.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dual Nature
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 20:45:14 -0500
On Tue, 26 Nov 1996, Sascha Pabst wrote:

> [snip Dragon/Drain]
> > It's not Astrally Projecting? Then the Drain is normal Drain.
> >
> > Drain is automatically Physical when the entity's aura is not attached
> > to its body.
> No.
> SRII, p.148: ''When a magician casts spells in astral space, Drain always
> causes Physical damage, regardless of the spell's Force rating.''
>
> Could mean projecting magicians only, or any magician who casts a spell into
> astral space.


Um. Yes.


'When a magician casts spells in astral space...'

is structurally and semantically equivalent (in American English) to

'When a magician in astral space casts spells...'

but not

'When a magician casts spells into astral space..'


I asked my friend with the BA in English in case you'd like to know what
my source is.


Think about the things being attached to a meat body actually does *for*
an aura, or a spirit. While it does slow one down, and weakens your
perceptive abilities quite a bit, it also allows you to channel power more
easily of certain types. One of those types would correspond to 'raw
magic', or SR's magic.
The above paragraph is Speculation, of course, but it seems to fit. :)



Brian W. Allison

Computer Scientist Vocalist Would-be Poet Bicycler Scuba Diver
Hacker(0xca) Nerd(79) GenX(21) #include <witticism.h>
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~ballison

--- Unsolicited Commercial E-Mail is not welcome at this account ---
--- and will result in a US$500 fee per US Code Title 47 Sec 227. ---
Message no. 17
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Dual Nature
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 11:33:07 +0000
On Tue, 26 Nov 1996, M. Gotthard wrote:

> > > I have a question regarding dual nature critters that came from a game I
> > > was in. Can you ground spells through them as if they were astral
> > > perceiveing ?
> > "Yes, fry their hoops!"
>
> *sigh* All those poor little hell hounds.

This will be one of teh main disadvantages of playing a shapeshifter -all
teh other players will be paranoid about mages grounding spells through
you. ANd if you come up against any magical barriers then you're stuck!

> BTW If a dragon is astrally percieving, it's going to have to use spells
> to hit an astral mage (unless the mage is stupid)... Does the dragon take
> physical drain due to having astral active, or stun drain from being
> attached to a meat body?
I'd say stun danage, as long as he is attached to his meat body he should
be able to cast and resist spells as non-astrally active.

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
"So that which I imagine, is that which I believe" -Rush
Shadowrun Web Site http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html
Message no. 18
From: Peter Bailey <pbailey@***.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Dual Nature
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 07:22:54 -0800
Hi Czar,

> I have a question regarding dual nature critters that came from a game I
> was in. Can you ground spells through them as if they were astral
> perceiveing ?

Yes.
--

Internet: pbailey@***.com.au Fidonet: 3:640/281.3

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GAT d s:+ a- C+>++++ U? P? L E? @* N+++ o? K? w--- O? M? V?
PS+ PE++ Y+>++ PGP++ t+ 5- X+ R+ tv b+++ DI? D++ G e h----
r+++ y++++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
PGP fingerprint = 9C A2 D9 D8 CF 78 EC E7 3D 9F C7 C7 FD 11 85 4E
Member Team AMIGA
Message no. 19
From: Peter Leitch <pleitch_hpcs@*******.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Dual Nature
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 23:36:40 +1100
At 11:33 27/11/96 +0000, you wrote:
>> BTW If a dragon is astrally percieving, it's going to have to use spells
>> to hit an astral mage (unless the mage is stupid)... Does the dragon take
>> physical drain due to having astral active, or stun drain from being
>> attached to a meat body?
>I'd say stun danage, as long as he is attached to his meat body he should
>be able to cast and resist spells as non-astrally active.

The point is fairly moot. With a Willpoer in the high teens and over, and
a Body of up to 40 dice, any damn dragon ain't, just AIN'T gonna take any
drain, no matter if it is mental of physical.


PML

***************************************
Peter Leitch
<pleitch_hpcs@*******.com.au>
Canberra, Australia
Message no. 20
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Dual Nature
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 13:22:09 GMT
Peter Leitch writes

> At 11:33 27/11/96 +0000, you wrote:
> >> BTW If a dragon is astrally percieving, it's going to have to use spells
> >> to hit an astral mage (unless the mage is stupid)... Does the dragon take
> >> physical drain due to having astral active, or stun drain from being
> >> attached to a meat body?
> >I'd say stun danage, as long as he is attached to his meat body he should
> >be able to cast and resist spells as non-astrally active.
>
Agreed

> The point is fairly moot.
Often but not actually for what follows

> With a Willpoer in the high teens and over, and
> a Body of up to 40 dice, any damn dragon ain't, just AIN'T gonna take any
> drain, no matter if it is mental of physical.
>
Well off 'PC' sized force 6 manabolt etc maybe, but when you reach
the force 10 sleep's and hellblasts dragons get listed with by FASA
they sure are going to take drain.

you need 6 5's, best have 18 dice handy!
8 11's for a foce 10 hellblast, yeah right! [ok karma will do it but]

However if you know the ED stuff Dragons get spell matricies but
don't go using those unless you know enough to have the drawbacks as
there are no official SR rules for such things and all the Dragon
needs is 'it can cast x spells prechosen of its choice for no drain'

Mark
Message no. 21
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Dual Nature
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 13:50:36 +0000
On Thu, 28 Nov 1996, Mark Steedman wrote:

> However if you know the ED stuff Dragons get spell matricies but
> don't go using those unless you know enough to have the drawbacks as
> there are no official SR rules for such things and all the Dragon
> needs is 'it can cast x spells prechosen of its choice for no drain'
Spell matrix rules for SR can be found on my WWW site. While not negating
drain entirely they sure make it easier to resist i.e. reduce the Drain
TN by its rating.


The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
"So that which I imagine, is that which I believe" -Rush
Shadowrun Web Site http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html
Message no. 22
From: Shannon Wood <blade6.2@********.NET>
Subject: Dual Nature
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 15:41:02 -0600
Are Elf dual natured? And what about the rest of the metahumans.

None of the books I've went through really say either way.


Thank You
Shannon
Message no. 23
From: Justin Pinnow <jpinnow@*****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dual Nature
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 16:54:11 -0500
Shannon Wood wrote:

> Are Elf dual natured? And what about the rest of the metahumans.

> None of the books I've went through really say either way.

None of the metahumans are dual natured. The only available PC
archetype that is dual natured (to my knowledge) would be the
Shapeshifters.
> Thank You
> Shannon

--
_____________________________________________________________________________
Justin Pinnow
jpinnow@*****.edu
Message no. 24
From: Tim Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dual Nature
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 14:03:40 -0800
At 03:41 PM 3/17/97 -0600, Shannon Wood Wrote:
>Are Elf dual natured? And what about the rest of the metahumans.
>
> None of the books I've went through really say either way.
>

What?!?! Where the hell did you come up with that one?!?!?

(sorry, that wasn't called for...)

NO metahumans are dual-natured.
(AFAIK, Shapeshifters aren't considered "Metahumans".)

If you want some rule-book proof, go look in SRII in the "Critters" section,
and look at the end, I'm pretty sure that there is a listing for the
"average" metahuman's stats. If you head over to the "Essence"
column, you
will notice that it will show "6" for all the metahuman types. Just
"6",
not "6A" (for astral being) or "(6)" (for dual natured).

In SR *NO* _metahuman_ is intrinsically magical (OK, I don't know about any
of the wierd, new ones in the Companion..).

~Tim
Message no. 25
From: Shawn Baumgartner <deosyne@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Dual Nature
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 22:46:34 -0800
>Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 15:41:02 -0600
>From: Shannon Wood

>Are Elf dual natured? And what about the rest of the
metahumans.
>
> None of the books I've went through really say
either way.
>
>
> Thank You
> Shannon

Nope.

Shawn
Keepin' it simple so the others can get get all sorts
of technical. :)


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Out of the gutter and into your mailer!

---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 26
From: MC23 <mc23@****.NET>
Subject: Re: Dual Nature
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 02:26:42 -0500
Tim Cooper wrote,
>NO metahumans are dual-natured.
>(AFAIK, Shapeshifters aren't considered "Metahumans".)

You're right on that count. Shapeshifters are awakened animals that
take human form and are not derived from human stock (meta-humans).


<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 27
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Dual Nature
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 20:15:34 EST
On Mon, 17 Mar 1997 15:41:02 -0600 Shannon Wood <blade6.2@********.net>
writes:
>Are Elf dual natured? And what about the rest of the metahumans.
>
> None of the books I've went through really say either way.
>
>
> Thank You
> Shannon
>
None of the standard character races are dual-natured.
If you use the SR Companion rules, then the only possible dual-natured PC
race is that of the shapeshifter.
The ghoul, described as a metahuman in the SR2 book and in Bug City
(though each book describes them slightly differently), is dual-natured.
It is not a normal PC race, however.
The Sasquatch (not a metahuman, tho') is also dual-natured.

--
-Canthros
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 28
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Dual Nature
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 21:12:30 EST
On Mon, 17 Mar 1997 14:03:40 -0800 Tim Cooper
<tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU> writes:
>At 03:41 PM 3/17/97 -0600, Shannon Wood Wrote:
>>Are Elf dual natured? And what about the rest of the metahumans.
<snip>
>In SR *NO* _metahuman_ is intrinsically magical (OK, I don't know
>about any
>of the wierd, new ones in the Companion..).
>
>~Tim
>
<game-show buzzer>
Wrong!

Actually, the ghoul, listed as a metahuman who's undergone goblinisation,
is dual-natured.

--
-Canthros
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 29
From: Tim Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dual Nature
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 14:14:02 -0800
On Tue, 18 Mar 1997, L Canthros wrote:

> <game-show buzzer>
> Wrong!
>
> Actually, the ghoul, listed as a metahuman who's undergone goblinisation,
> is dual-natured.
>
> --

?!?! REALLY ?!?!
Wow, I'll have to go look that one up...

~Tim
Message no. 30
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Dual Nature
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 18:06:05 EST
On Wed, 19 Mar 1997 14:14:02 -0800 Tim Cooper
<tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU> writes:
>On Tue, 18 Mar 1997, L Canthros wrote:
>
>> <game-show buzzer>
>> Wrong!
>>
>> Actually, the ghoul, listed as a metahuman who's undergone
>goblinisation,
>> is dual-natured.
>>
>> --
>
>?!?! REALLY ?!?!
>Wow, I'll have to go look that one up...
>
>~Tim
>
Yeah. I believe that was how FASA described ghouls in the Critters
section of the SR2 manual (don't have a page ref, 'cause I still don't
have the book):

--
-Canthros
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 31
From: "Faux Pas (Thomas)" <thomas@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Dual Nature
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 17:37:31 -0600
On 02:14 PM 3/19/97 -0800, Tim Cooper screamed at the world:
>On Tue, 18 Mar 1997, L Canthros wrote:
>> Actually, the ghoul, listed as a metahuman who's undergone goblinisation,
>> is dual-natured.

>Wow, I'll have to go look that one up...

They're dual-natured metahumans in the SR2 main book. In Bug City, they're
an expression of the Krieger strain of HMVV (it's mentioned in the NPC
section near the end of the sourcebook).


Thomas Deeny
Infobahn Austin
512 320 0556
Message no. 32
From: Shawn Baumgartner <deosyne@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Dual Nature
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 17:56:14 -0800
>Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 14:14:02 -0800
>From: Tim Cooper

>On Tue, 18 Mar 1997, L Canthros wrote:
>
>>
>> Wrong!
>>
>> Actually, the ghoul, listed as a metahuman who's
undergone goblinisation,

Ixnay, dude. A ghoul is a metahuman who is infected
with a form of HMMVV. That's how they reproduce, by
the way. In context, it appears they can reproduce by
normal means, but due to "lack of suitable partners"
they prefer infection.

>> is dual-natured.

Where'd you see that?

Shawn
Who got really creeped out by the Ghoultown section
in Bug City (and the rest of the book, for that
matter).


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Out of the gutter and into your mailer!

---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 33
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Dual Nature
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 17:05:16 EST
On Wed, 19 Mar 1997 17:56:14 -0800 Shawn Baumgartner
<deosyne@*******.COM> writes:
>>Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 14:14:02 -0800
>>From: Tim Cooper
>
>>On Tue, 18 Mar 1997, L Canthros wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Wrong!
>>>
>>> Actually, the ghoul, listed as a metahuman who's
>undergone goblinisation,
>
>Ixnay, dude. A ghoul is a metahuman who is infected
>with a form of HMMVV. That's how they reproduce, by
>the way. In context, it appears they can reproduce by
>normal means, but due to "lack of suitable partners"
>they prefer infection.
>

That's how they're described in Bug City, -that- book I have. In the SR2
manual, they are described as being goblinised metahumans. I'd quote it
for you or give a page ref, but I don't have that book. There's been some
speculation that there may be more than one type of ghoul (we're still
waiting on FASAMike to clear that up for us).


>>> is dual-natured.
>
>Where'd you see that?

In both Bug City and the SR2 manual, they are dual. The Critters chart in
SR2 gives them something like Essence (5), I think. They're dual. That
much I'm sure of.


>
>Shawn
>Who got really creeped out by the Ghoultown section
>in Bug City (and the rest of the book, for that
>matter).
>

Yes, parts of that book bothered me...


--
-Canthros-the-this-time-I-know-what-I'm-talking-about-darnit-shapeshifter-mage
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 34
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Dual Nature
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 21:12:51 +0000
On 19 Mar 97 at 17:56, Shawn Baumgartner wrote:
[snip]
> Ixnay, dude. A ghoul is a metahuman who is infected
> with a form of HMMVV. That's how they reproduce, by
> the way. In context, it appears they can reproduce by
> normal means, but due to "lack of suitable partners"
> they prefer infection.
SRII, p. 225: "Many Ghouls, though suffering from goblinization trauma
and [snip]"
BC, p. 97: "The passage of Special Order 162 marks the first time since
the Awakening that the UCAS government has formally recognizedthe
rights of a new metahuman race and accorded such a race legal
protection.",

OTOH: BC, p. 102: "As a result, they have turned to infection as means
of increasing their numbers."

>> is dual-natured.
> Where'd you see that?
BC, p. 102: "[...] but the ghouls' dual nature has provided [...]"
SRII, p. 233: "Ghoul [...] E: (5)"

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |'The rich control |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| The Government, |
| \___ __/ | | The Media, |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | And the Law!' |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | - Queensryche |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 35
From: "Fisher, Victor" <Victor-Fisher@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Dual Nature
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 17:30:31 -0500
Shawn Baumgartner said:
>[snip]
>> Ixnay, dude. A ghoul is a metahuman who is infected
>> with a form of HMMVV. That's how they reproduce, by
>> the way. In context, it appears they can reproduce by
>> normal means, but due to "lack of suitable partners"
>> they prefer infection.

Didn't they used to have a show called the GROOVY GHOULIES?!?!?!
Message no. 36
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Dual Nature
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 22:51:55 -0500
At 09:12 PM 3/21/97 +0000, Sascha Pabst wrote these timeless words:

>SRII, p. 225: "Many Ghouls, though suffering from goblinization trauma
>and [snip]"
>BC, p. 97: "The passage of Special Order 162 marks the first time since
>the Awakening that the UCAS government has formally recognizedthe
>rights of a new metahuman race and accorded such a race legal
>protection.",
>
>OTOH: BC, p. 102: "As a result, they have turned to infection as means
>of increasing their numbers."
>
I *THINK* the Bug City ghouls are a bit different than normal ghouls...
Not sure why or how it happened, but they apparently have a virus that they
can use to create more ghouls... FASA has never bothered to explain this,
so who knows...

Howeve, reading that statement, you could possibly infer something...

That the ghouls engineered the virus so that they could increase their
numbers...

Scary thought, eh? :]

Hey, i've known for years that not all ghouls are stupid... Some of my
best friends are ghouls...:]

>>> is dual-natured.
>> Where'd you see that?
>BC, p. 102: "[...] but the ghouls' dual nature has provided [...]"
>SRII, p. 233: "Ghoul [...] E: (5)"
>
Ya know Sashca, I LOVE that database you got...:]

Bull
--
Now the Offical Shadowrn mailing List Welcome Ork!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List

=======================================================
= Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich =
= chaos@*****.com =
= "Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?" =
=======================================================

"You know, I think I had a dream that I'd go out like
this, only I was wearing a dress."
-Mighty max
Message no. 37
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Dual Nature
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 21:17:53 +0000
On 21 Mar 97 at 22:51, Bull wrote:
[snip]
> I *THINK* the Bug City ghouls are a bit different than normal ghouls...
> Not sure why or how it happened, but they apparently have a virus that they
> can use to create more ghouls... FASA has never bothered to explain this,
> so who knows...
You are one right bot, Bull... right after I sent my last msg on this
topic, I found another reference, the much-referred-to "Krieger" strain
of HTML, err, HMVV. It's BC pp.150-151, and too long for me to type it
in.

> >>> is dual-natured.
> >> Where'd you see that?
> >BC, p. 102: "[...] but the ghouls' dual nature has provided [...]"
> >SRII, p. 233: "Ghoul [...] E: (5)"
> >
> Ya know Sashca, I LOVE that database you got...:]
Heh... since my hard drive crash (stop smirking, Pete!) I don't have a
database anymore :-( Now I really have to use my head... and type all
the stuff in :-( (who was it that dictated his mails to his computer?
Is there a demo version for sourcebook-quoters available?)


Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |'The rich control |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| The Government, |
| \___ __/ | | The Media, |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | And the Law!' |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | - Queensryche |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Dual Nature, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!