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From:	Loki <loki@*******.com>
Subject:	Dual Natured
Date:	Sat, 24 Aug 1996 11:30:11 -0700

Message no. 1 Here's one for you:

Are dual-planer critters ALWAYS present on the astral plane? If so and
thus they view the world through astral senses, why give the abilities
like thermo and low-light vision? They're continually listed with such
senses in FASA products.

Or perhaps, do dual-natured critters have the ability to astrally
perceive...shifting to astral senses when they chose much like a mage,
but otherwise using the thermo or lowlight when sensing on the physical
plane?

If they use this form of astral perception, then what of the source book
describing them as always being present astrally? Is it just their
senses that shift back and forth, but their aura is always open to
astral channels? And do they have to take the +2 modifiers for physical
inter-action when using astral senses or because of their continuous
astral ties are they not affected by such a modifier.

In my game I've anwered the question by giving the dual-planers a form
of astral perception where their senses can be shifted from the physical
to astral planes like a mage would do when astallly percieving. However,
they don't take the +2 modifier when their senses are astral because
they've always lived as thus and its their very nature. These critters
always have an open channel to the astral plane though, and thus are
open to attack from astral sources. So by and large, their senses are
usually attuned to that plane.

I welcome other ideas.

@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Poisoned Elves http://www.netzone.com/~loki/

From:	Justin Thomas <Justin.C.Thomas-1@**.umn.edu>
Subject:	Re: Dual Natured
Date:	Sat, 24 Aug 1996 15:09:11 -0500

Message no. 2 At 11:30 AM 8/24/96 -0700, you wrote:
>Here's one for you:
>
>Are dual-planer critters ALWAYS present on the astral plane? If so and
>thus they view the world through astral senses, why give the abilities
>like thermo and low-light vision? They're continually listed with such
>senses in FASA products.
>
>Or perhaps, do dual-natured critters have the ability to astrally
>perceive...shifting to astral senses when they chose much like a mage,
>but otherwise using the thermo or lowlight when sensing on the physical
>plane?
>
>If they use this form of astral perception, then what of the source book
>describing them as always being present astrally? Is it just their
>senses that shift back and forth, but their aura is always open to
>astral channels? And do they have to take the +2 modifiers for physical
>inter-action when using astral senses or because of their continuous
>astral ties are they not affected by such a modifier.
>
>In my game I've anwered the question by giving the dual-planers a form
>of astral perception where their senses can be shifted from the physical
>to astral planes like a mage would do when astallly percieving. However,
>they don't take the +2 modifier when their senses are astral because
>they've always lived as thus and its their very nature. These critters
>always have an open channel to the astral plane though, and thus are
>open to attack from astral sources. So by and large, their senses are
>usually attuned to that plane.
>
>I welcome other ideas.

My thoughts...

I believe that they are always astrally active and "see" both the astral and
physical worlds... they has learned to interpret what they see because that
is what they have seen since birth, I also feel that thermo and low light
would be useless because the astral is bright as day anyway... IMO
******************************
Justin Thomas
"Farr"
Email:
thom0767@****.tc.umn.edu
http://www.tc.umn.edu/nlhome/g192/thom0767/index.html

From:	dreamwvr@******.co.za (dreamwvr)
Subject:	Re: Dual Natured
Date:	Sun, 25 Aug 1996 09:35:48 -0200 (GMT)

Message no. 3 In my games, dual natured beings exits simultaneously on the astral and
physical plane and so does their senses. Their "brains" are able to process
both sensory feedbacks simultaneosly. No switcing neccessary.

From:	"Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject:	Re: Dual Natured
Date:	Sun, 25 Aug 1996 12:13:52 +0100

Message no. 4 Loki said on 11:30/24 Aug 96...

> Are dual-planer critters ALWAYS present on the astral plane? If so and
> thus they view the world through astral senses, why give the abilities
> like thermo and low-light vision? They're continually listed with such
> senses in FASA products.

I always understood it to mean that the critter was continually active on
the astral plane, and didn't need to switch between astral and normal
perception.

As for why they are given things like low-light vision, well, why do some
have enhanced smell or hearing if they're astrally active? Remember that
astral perception is not the same as vision -- it's usually compared to
it, because that's easiest for us because humans' primary sense is vision.
The thermographic vison could be useful for these critters to spot details
they otherwise couldn't, or for times when their astral perception can't
work (for example, when someone puts up an astral barrier that's opaque
when perceived from astral space).

> If they use this form of astral perception, then what of the source book
> describing them as always being present astrally? Is it just their
> senses that shift back and forth, but their aura is always open to
> astral channels? And do they have to take the +2 modifiers for physical
> inter-action when using astral senses or because of their continuous
> astral ties are they not affected by such a modifier.

Dual-natured creatures don't use the +2 modifier for astral perception,
because they're used to it. For humans, astral space is like looking into
a different world, and can be disorienting. Perhaps you can compare it to
someone who's been blind all his life -- he'll be much better able to
handle himself than you will be if you're blindfolded.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I'll watch it from the room inside my room.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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From:	Ubiquitous <weberm@*******.net>
Subject:	Re: Dual Natured
Date:	Sun, 25 Aug 1996 08:00:17 -0400 (EDT)

Message no. 5 At 11:30 AM 8/24/96 -0700, Loki wrote:

>Are dual-planer critters ALWAYS present on the astral plane? If so and
>thus they view the world through astral senses, why give the abilities
>like thermo and low-light vision? They're continually listed with such
>senses in FASA products.

Dual-natured critters always have an astral presence and the ability to assense,
without penalty to performing mundane actions, I might add. Using thermo
and lowlite makes no sense with astral sight, because you see everything
when assensing as if brightly light.

>If they use this form of astral perception, then what of the source book
>describing them as always being present astrally? Is it just their
>senses that shift back and forth, but their aura is always open to
>astral channels? And do they have to take the +2 modifiers for physical
>inter-action when using astral senses or because of their continuous
>astral ties are they not affected by such a modifier.

SR2 p148 "Magical critters"
Dual natured critters exist on both planes simultaneously and use the same
stats and attributes for both planes, including armor.

Grim2, under the "Places" chapter
Repeat of above, plus warning not to mess with a Dragon in astral space.
Dual nature critters have no assensing penalty.

>In my game I've answered the question by giving the dual-planers a form
>of astral perception where their senses can be shifted from the physical
>to astral planes like a mage would do when astallly perceiving. However,
>they don't take the +2 modifier when their senses are astral because
>they've always lived as thus and its their very nature. These critters
>always have an open channel to the astral plane though, and thus are
>open to attack from astral sources. So by and large, their senses are
>usually attuned to that plane.

Close, but a dual-natured critter's astral perception is always on.

--
"I dyde shyte thre grete toordes." Fables of Aesop,
Caxton translation,
V15 1484

From:	Loki <loki@*******.com>
Subject:	Re: Dual Natured
Date:	Sun, 25 Aug 1996 11:37:27 -0700

Message no. 6 dreamwvr wrote:
>
> In my games, dual natured beings exits simultaneously on the astral and
> physical plane and so does their senses. Their "brains" are able to process
> both sensory feedbacks simultaneosly. No switcing neccessary.

But why bother? Astral perception doesn't give them any lighting
modifiers where as thermo or low-light will give them a +2 or +4 more
often than not. Why even have the thermo or lowlight listed? The only
time it would be useful is say some critter, a dragon for example was
going to read a tech manual that would only come up as a drab, boring
collection of blank pages astrally. That won't happen that often, but
maybe that's the case...
@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Poisoned Elves http://www.netzone.com/~loki/

From:	"Damion Milliken" <dam01@***.edu.au>
Subject:	Re: Dual Natured
Date:	Mon, 26 Aug 1996 11:21:10 +1000 (EST)

Message no. 7 Loki writes:

> But why bother? Astral perception doesn't give them any lighting
> modifiers where as thermo or low-light will give them a +2 or +4 more
> often than not. Why even have the thermo or lowlight listed? The only
> time it would be useful is say some critter, a dragon for example was
> going to read a tech manual that would only come up as a drab, boring
> collection of blank pages astrally. That won't happen that often, but
> maybe that's the case...

Well, astral perception does not _always_ give no vision modifier. Places
with a background count or other magical activity occuring would be
problematic to a creature with astral perception. Also, astral perception
does not allow a creature to see thermal images on the other side of opaque
objects, while thermographic vision does.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au

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From:	bluewizard@*****.com (Steven A. Tinner)
Subject:	Re: Dual Natured
Date:	Mon, 26 Aug 1996 00:04:36 -0500 (EST)

Message no. 8 >In my games, dual natured beings exits simultaneously on the astral and
>physical plane and so does their senses. Their "brains" are able to process
>both sensory feedbacks simultaneosly. No switcing neccessary.
>
>
Same thing for us. We have always just assumed that the creature just
processes the extra info as part of it's natural senses.
No different than us being able to see, hear and smell at the same time really.

The Way of the Hero

In each truly heroic struggle there is a time of commitment.
A time when human energies fail, yet more is required . . . and more is given.
Few are equal to that task.
Often that effort ends in failure, for victory is not always for the brave.
But where a man might falter, these ones do not, not while life and spirit
endure.
Not until the last measure is given.
To transcend the man, become the hero.

From:	wilsonpj@******.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Peter)
Subject:	Re: Dual Natured
Date:	Mon, 26 Aug 1996 00:09:46 -0600

Message no. 9 Loki wrote:

>Here's one for you:
>
>Are dual-planer critters ALWAYS present on the astral plane? If so and
>thus they view the world through astral senses, why give the abilities
>like thermo and low-light vision? They're continually listed with such
>senses in FASA products.
>
>Or perhaps, do dual-natured critters have the ability to astrally
>perceive...shifting to astral senses when they chose much like a mage,
>but otherwise using the thermo or lowlight when sensing on the physical
>plane?
>

Because they are constantly active in both the physical and astral planes
I rule that they always are percieving both. This works like natural
thermo vision. They see physical world with the auras of living things
surrounding them. If they are lookng at the body of an astraly projecting
mage, then the aura is missing and it looks like a dead (or mostly dead)
body. You would probably want to make them succed in a perception test
to locate a mages hidden body by looking for this distincive lack of aura,
or (a bit of a stretch) the "golden cord" connecting the aura and body.

The usefulness of having thermo or low-light vision in addition to the dual
physical-astral vision comes in when the critter needs to use them on
non-living targets. For example, looking at a parking lot full of cars to
find the hot one that the runners just ditched.

Piatro

From:	wilsonpj@******.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Peter)
Subject:	Re: Dual Natured
Date:	Mon, 26 Aug 1996 00:09:51 -0600

Message no. 10 Ubiquitous wrote:

>At 11:30 AM 8/24/96 -0700, Loki wrote:
>
>>Are dual-planer critters ALWAYS present on the astral plane? If so and
>>thus they view the world through astral senses, why give the abilities
>>like thermo and low-light vision? They're continually listed with such
>>senses in FASA products.
>
>Dual-natured critters always have an astral presence and the ability to assense,
>without penalty to performing mundane actions, I might add. Using thermo
>and lowlite makes no sense with astral sight, because you see everything
>when assensing as if brightly light.
>

But _astrally_ you are not seeing what is physically there. I don't
have my book handy, but as I recal the astral plane is made up of the
emotional life energy of living things. This is why mages have to
physically project in order to read road signs or determine other things
about the physical world. This information can only be as good as the
physical eyes that are seeing it.

Piatro

From:	RAY MACEY <r.macey@*******.qut.edu.au>
Subject:	Re: Dual Natured
Date:	Tue, 27 Aug 1996 10:13:37 +1000 (EST)

Message no. 11 > Dual-natured critters always have an astral presence and the ability to assense,
> without penalty to performing mundane actions, I might add. Using thermo
> and lowlite makes no sense with astral sight, because you see everything
> when assensing as if brightly light.

What about when there is a high background count? What if the target is
hiding behind a wall, or behind an astral barrier? In any of these cases
they would be able to see heat leaking out if they had thermo.

Ray.

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