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Message no. 1
From: Andy Gardner <A.Gardner@******.COM>
Subject: Dual natured combat
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 18:56:15 +0000
Here's just a fun bit of speculation that has been bothering me for a
little while.

When an elemental manifests it becomes dual natured.
If it strikes at something in the astral it inflicts damage to it at
it's manifest strength but with it's astral damage code.
Choice between physical or stun damage as per usual.

If it strikes at something on the physical it inflicts damage with
it's manifest strength and it's manifest damage code.

How about if it hits a dual natured creature ?
It's hitting both it's targets physical body and its astral body.
In theory the target takes damage twice, which is a little harsh.
The target could even take physical damage and stun damage !
So, what would / do you use out there ? Everybody who plays a
'shifter should have come across this one before because the easiest
way to get one of them into trouble is to sic an elemental etc. on
them.
Personally I think that the (cruel but fair) way of solving it is to
use the highest damage result of the two attacks.


Fox on the Net
ICQ UIN - 5239612
Message no. 2
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Dual natured combat
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 18:34:05 -0500
> From: Andy Gardner <A.Gardner@******.COM>
> Date: Saturday, January 10, 1998 1:56 PM

> Here's just a fun bit of speculation that has been bothering me for a
> little while.

> When an elemental manifests it becomes dual natured.
> If it strikes at something in the astral it inflicts damage to it at
> it's manifest strength but with it's astral damage code.
> Choice between physical or stun damage as per usual.

<Snip>

Actually, this has been nagging at me for awhile now. I would like to see
where the canon rules state that a spirit that Manifests is considered
dual-natured. I don't believe that to be the case. IIRC, the spirit is
only present on the physical plane when performing a physical service. I
can't seem to find a reference that states otherwise. If I am correct,
this would solve your problem entirely. ;)

> Fox on the Net
> ICQ UIN - 5239612

Justin :)
Message no. 3
From: Andy Gardner <A.Gardner@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Dual natured combat
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 00:01:36 +0000
On Sat, 10 Jan 1998 18:34:05 -0500 Justin Pinnow

> > From: Andy Gardner <A.Gardner@******.COM>
> > Date: Saturday, January 10, 1998 1:56 PM
>
> > Here's just a fun bit of speculation that has been bothering me for a
> > little while.
>
> > When an elemental manifests it becomes dual natured.
> > If it strikes at something in the astral it inflicts damage to it at
> > it's manifest strength but with it's astral damage code.
> > Choice between physical or stun damage as per usual.
>
> <Snip>
>
> Actually, this has been nagging at me for awhile now. I would like to see
> where the canon rules state that a spirit that Manifests is considered
> dual-natured. I don't believe that to be the case. IIRC, the spirit is
> only present on the physical plane when performing a physical service. I
> can't seem to find a reference that states otherwise. If I am correct,
> this would solve your problem entirely. ;)

True, but unfortunately Paranormals of Europe (P 148) :
"Essence... If the number is followed by a capital A, the being
exists primarily in astral space, and becomes a dual being upon
manifesting physically."
And if you had been right a manifest elemental could go straight
through a ward since a ward exists only in the astral.


Fox on the Net
ICQ UIN - 5239612
Message no. 4
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Dual natured combat
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 17:55:44 PST
>Here's just a fun bit of speculation that has been bothering me for a
>little while.
>
>When an elemental manifests it becomes dual natured.

>If it strikes at something in the astral it inflicts damage to it at
>it's manifest strength but with it's astral damage code.

Not AFAIK- a dual natured creature behaves EXACTLY the same onthe astral
as physical. Same damage, same stats, same attack.

>How about if it hits a dual natured creature ?
>It's hitting both it's targets physical body and its astral body.

Which are identical. There is one attack, using the physical stats and
damage, which apply on both planes for dual natured beings.

Note that a "mystic" using astral peception is NOT dual natured- they
must use astral combat, which is why killing hands won't work against
purely astral , even if you use astral perception.

Mongoose / Technological progress is like an ax in the hands
of a psychotic - Einstein

get sucked into -The Vortex- Chicago's shadowland BBS
http://www.concentric.net/~evamarie/srmain.htm


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Message no. 5
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Dual natured combat
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 22:00:42 -0500
> From: Andy Gardner <A.Gardner@******.COM>
> Date: Saturday, January 10, 1998 7:01 PM

> On Sat, 10 Jan 1998 18:34:05 -0500 Justin Pinnow

> > Actually, this has been nagging at me for awhile now. I would like to
see
> > where the canon rules state that a spirit that Manifests is considered
> > dual-natured. I don't believe that to be the case. IIRC, the spirit
is
> > only present on the physical plane when performing a physical service.
I
> > can't seem to find a reference that states otherwise. If I am correct,
> > this would solve your problem entirely. ;)

> True, but unfortunately Paranormals of Europe (P 148) :
> "Essence... If the number is followed by a capital A, the being
> exists primarily in astral space, and becomes a dual being upon
> manifesting physically."

Ah. I don't have that book. That's why I didn't think they became
dual-natured upon Manifesting. What an obscure place for such an important
bit of information. :)

> And if you had been right a manifest elemental could go straight
> through a ward since a ward exists only in the astral.

That would make them powerful, wouldn't it? ;)

> Fox on the Net
> ICQ UIN - 5239612

Justin :)
Message no. 6
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Dual natured combat
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 22:10:29 -0500
> From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
> Date: Saturday, January 10, 1998 8:55 PM

> Note that a "mystic" using astral peception is NOT dual natured- they
> must use astral combat, which is why killing hands won't work against
> purely astral , even if you use astral perception.

While it is true that you are not dual-natured in that you must use your
astral stats while perceiving, you are incorrect about killing hands.

BBB pg. 147 under "Resolving Astral Combat":

"Note that a physical adept is able to use killing hands ability to full
effect on the astral plane. Remember also that physical adepts can only
astrally perceive; they cannot project."

Thus, a physad with killing hands CAN attack a purely astral entity if they
can astrally perceive.

> Mongoose / Technological progress is like an ax in the hands
> of a psychotic - Einstein

Justin :)
Message no. 7
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Dual natured combat
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 00:03:24 PST
>> From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
>> Date: Saturday, January 10, 1998 8:55 PM
>
>> Note that a "mystic" using astral peception is NOT dual natured- they
must use astral combat, which is why killing hands won't work against
purely astral , even if you use astral perception.
>
>BBB pg. 147 under "Resolving Astral Combat":
>
>"Note that a physical adept is able to use killing hands ability to
full effect on the astral plane. Remember also that physical adepts can
only astrally perceive; they cannot project."
>
>Thus, a physad with killing hands CAN attack a purely astral entity >if
they can astrally perceive.

Right you are - I missed that one exeption exeption. Its not stated if
astral strength or physical strength is then the basis for the power,
though!

What do Y'all think?



Heres a thornier set of questions:

What would a projecting Shapeshifter mages stats be- the same as his
normal, physical stats, as PNA and other critter sources imply, or the
stats used for astral combat?

I'm figuring the same as physical.

Now, the tricky part. Does that mage get an astral combat pool? Is
that a different pool than his normal combat pool? Can he use that
astral combat pool when NOT projecting if attacked in astral combat?

Again, I'm figuring, yes, he'd have an astral combat pool, and it would
be the same as the normal pool, the stats being identical. They would
be seperate pools, though. Not giving him two seperate pools would put
him at a disadvantage compared to a to a normal mage.

Now, that being so, would a non-magically active shapeshifter get an
astral combat pool? I'd say yes, because he can use astral combat.

So, would an attack made on another dual being have to be chosen as
EITHER astral or physical combat, for pool use, or could dice be drawn
from BOTH pools, as long as the skill used is not exceeded?

Comments?





Mongoose / Technological progress is like an ax in the hands
of a psychotic - Einstein

get sucked into -The Vortex- Chicago's shadowland BBS
http://www.concentric.net/~evamarie/srmain.htm


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Message no. 8
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: Dual natured combat
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 12:04:01 +0000
On 11 Jan 98, Mon goose disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by
writing:

<snip>

> >"Note that a physical adept is able to use killing hands ability to
> full effect on the astral plane. Remember also that physical adepts
> can only astrally perceive; they cannot project."
> >
> >Thus, a physad with killing hands CAN attack a purely astral entity >if
> they can astrally perceive.
>
> Right you are - I missed that one exeption exeption. Its not stated
> if astral strength or physical strength is then the basis for the
> power, though!

Well, not really. It's physical strength. Why? Well, Killing Hands
power is not defined as: do (L/M/S/D) physical damage instead of M
Stun.

It's: do normal unarmed combat damage (Str M Stun) or (Str)
(L/M/S/D).
Seems pretty well defined to me. That way, an adept has, say, 7S
Killing hands attack. No increases from bone lacing or anything. Just
use STR as attack's power...

<snip>
> Heres a thornier set of questions:
>
> What would a projecting Shapeshifter mages stats be- the same as his
> normal, physical stats, as PNA and other critter sources imply, or
> the stats used for astral combat?

Physical. That's why projecting shapeshifters are pretty scary...

<snip>
> Now, the tricky part. Does that mage get an astral combat pool? Is
> that a different pool than his normal combat pool? Can he use that
> astral combat pool when NOT projecting if attacked in astral combat?

Hmmm... I'd say yes.

<snip>


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike;
Star Wars fan and Amber junkie; ICQ UIN 6947998; FIAWOL; WTF TKD TOO;
FL/GN Leszek/Raptor II/ISD Vanguard, (SS) (PC) (ISM) {IWATS-IIC} JH(Sith)/House Scholae
Palatinae
Out of every life a little blood must spill.- Corwin
Message no. 9
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Dual natured combat
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 12:04:24 +0100
Mon goose said on 0:03/11 Jan 98...

> Heres a thornier set of questions:
>
> What would a projecting Shapeshifter mages stats be- the same as his
> normal, physical stats, as PNA and other critter sources imply, or the
> stats used for astral combat?
>
> I'm figuring the same as physical.

IMO it's the same as for other magicians: Charisma is used for Strength,
etc. That'd make the shapeshifter more or less equal to (meta)human
magicians when astrally projecting.

> Now, the tricky part. Does that mage get an astral combat pool? Is
> that a different pool than his normal combat pool? Can he use that
> astral combat pool when NOT projecting if attacked in astral combat?
>
> Again, I'm figuring, yes, he'd have an astral combat pool, and it would
> be the same as the normal pool, the stats being identical. They would
> be seperate pools, though. Not giving him two seperate pools would put
> him at a disadvantage compared to a to a normal mage.

I'd say the shapeshifter magician gets an astral combat pool, yes, but
it's equal to (Charisma + Intelligence + Willpower) / 2, since I feel it
should be calculated as for other magicians.

> Now, that being so, would a non-magically active shapeshifter get an
> astral combat pool? I'd say yes, because he can use astral combat.

Agreed.

> So, would an attack made on another dual being have to be chosen as
> EITHER astral or physical combat, for pool use, or could dice be drawn
> from BOTH pools, as long as the skill used is not exceeded?

I'd say that the shapeshifter can draw from both pools, as long as the
total number of dice used doesn't exceed the skill or attribute rating
being used.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
In the garden.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 10
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Dual natured combat
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 12:04:24 +0100
Justin Pinnow said on 22:00/10 Jan 98...

> > True, but unfortunately Paranormals of Europe (P 148) :
[snip]
>
> Ah. I don't have that book. That's why I didn't think they became
> dual-natured upon Manifesting. What an obscure place for such an important
> bit of information. :)

PAoE has the longest and most detailed descriptions of paranormal animal
powers of any SR book, so if you plan on using critters a lot, this is
really a must-have. If not, the descriptions in the SRII rulebook are
fine, while those in PAoNA need a bit of adapting to second edition rules.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
In the garden.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 11
From: Andy Gardner <A.Gardner@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Dual natured combat
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 12:56:09 +0000
On Sun, 11 Jan 1998 12:04:01 +0000 "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" wrote

> > Heres a thornier set of questions:
> >
> > What would a projecting Shapeshifter mages stats be- the same as his
> > normal, physical stats, as PNA and other critter sources imply, or
> > the stats used for astral combat?
>
> Physical. That's why projecting shapeshifters are pretty scary...

Don't forget that their normal physical stats are their animal stats.
So yes, that tiger is a problem. A fox is fairly inoffensive :)

> <snip>
> > Now, the tricky part. Does that mage get an astral combat pool? Is
> > that a different pool than his normal combat pool? Can he use that
> > astral combat pool when NOT projecting if attacked in astral combat?
>
> Hmmm... I'd say yes.

Unfortunately I'd say no. Why ? Like the astral stats the astral
combat pool is introduced under astral projection and it specifically
states that the magician has only one pool.
Also, if they had two pools then all the dual-natured critters should
have higher threat ratings than their non-dual counterparts since
they two pools and that isn't generaly the case.

This depends partially on my view that an astrally perceiving person
IS dual natured. I believe this because it does state that they are
vulnerable to astral combat AND can have spells grounded through them
(BBB P.146). Grounding spells is one of the hallmarks of astral
activity.

It is true however that all this leads to dual-natured creatures
which can be badly mangled by astral creatures due to initiative,
especially if pools are being used. That's why personally I consider
dual-nature to be more of a flaw than an edge but again that's
personal bias. Everytime my character faces astral creatures I'm in
trouble and it's not purely because a fox is inoffensive in combat.
I just start running out of combat pool for dodging / extra dice.


Fox on the Net
ICQ UIN - 5239612
Message no. 12
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Dual natured combat
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 10:07:54 -0500
> From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
> Date: Sunday, January 11, 1998 3:03 AM

<Snip>

> What would a projecting Shapeshifter mages stats be- the same as his
> normal, physical stats, as PNA and other critter sources imply, or the
> stats used for astral combat?

> I'm figuring the same as physical.

Shapeshifters are dual-natured. Like all other dual-natured beings that
can astrally project, they use their physical stats at all times (while
dual and while astrally projecting), including the fact that they get to
keep their natural armor while projecting. The only tricky part for
shapeshifters would be which physical stats to use (human or animal form).
I say go with whichever form they are currently in when they project.

> Now, the tricky part. Does that mage get an astral combat pool? Is
> that a different pool than his normal combat pool? Can he use that
> astral combat pool when NOT projecting if attacked in astral combat?

Like any other being that can project, you should get an Astral pool.

> Again, I'm figuring, yes, he'd have an astral combat pool, and it would
> be the same as the normal pool, the stats being identical. They would
> be seperate pools, though. Not giving him two seperate pools would put
> him at a disadvantage compared to a to a normal mage.

Actually, the pool size might not be the same as his combat pool, since the
Astral pool is based off different attributes (the mental ones).

> Now, that being so, would a non-magically active shapeshifter get an
> astral combat pool? I'd say yes, because he can use astral combat.

No, IMO. You only use the Astral pool when PROJECTING. Thus, your normal
combat pool applies when perceiving.

> So, would an attack made on another dual being have to be chosen as
> EITHER astral or physical combat, for pool use, or could dice be drawn
> from BOTH pools, as long as the skill used is not exceeded?

That depends. Is the attacker astrally projecting or perceiving? That's
what makes the difference.

> Comments?

There you have them. ;)

> Mongoose / Technological progress is like an ax in the hands
> of a psychotic - Einstein

Justin :)
Message no. 13
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Dual natured combat
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 10:16:31 -0500
> From: Andy Gardner <A.Gardner@******.COM>
> Date: Sunday, January 11, 1998 7:56 AM

> On Sun, 11 Jan 1998 12:04:01 +0000 "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" wrote

> > > Heres a thornier set of questions:

> > > What would a projecting Shapeshifter mages stats be- the same as his
> > > normal, physical stats, as PNA and other critter sources imply, or
> > > the stats used for astral combat?

> > Physical. That's why projecting shapeshifters are pretty scary...

> Don't forget that their normal physical stats are their animal stats.
> So yes, that tiger is a problem. A fox is fairly inoffensive :)

Well, I would rule that they use whichever stats their physical form
correlates with when they go astral.

> > <snip>
> > > Now, the tricky part. Does that mage get an astral combat pool? Is
> > > that a different pool than his normal combat pool? Can he use that
> > > astral combat pool when NOT projecting if attacked in astral combat?

> > Hmmm... I'd say yes.

> Unfortunately I'd say no. Why ? Like the astral stats the astral
> combat pool is introduced under astral projection and it specifically
> states that the magician has only one pool.
> Also, if they had two pools then all the dual-natured critters should
> have higher threat ratings than their non-dual counterparts since
> they two pools and that isn't generaly the case.

> This depends partially on my view that an astrally perceiving person
> IS dual natured. I believe this because it does state that they are
> vulnerable to astral combat AND can have spells grounded through them
> (BBB P.146). Grounding spells is one of the hallmarks of astral
> activity.

> It is true however that all this leads to dual-natured creatures
> which can be badly mangled by astral creatures due to initiative,
> especially if pools are being used. That's why personally I consider
> dual-nature to be more of a flaw than an edge but again that's
> personal bias. Everytime my character faces astral creatures I'm in
> trouble and it's not purely because a fox is inoffensive in combat.
> I just start running out of combat pool for dodging / extra dice.

I agree with you in all but a couple of areas, Fox. First, astrally
perceiving and being dual natured are two seperate things....with some
similarities. Basically, when you perceive you bridge the astral-physical
gap necessary for grounding spells. However, you don't get to keep any
natural armor. Also, if you are dual natured, you don't suffer from a +2
TN when trying to do mundane activities. This isn't the case for someone
who simply perceives and is not dual. This is because duals can see in
both the astral and the physical at the same time, while mages can only
view one or the other.

Thus, dual natured beings have some serious advantages. A dual natured
critter that can also astral project is generally a force to be reckoned
with. After removing the +2 mod for doing mundane tasks, adding armor,
being able to view both planes at once (making it VERY difficult to sneak
past one), AND being able to seperate from their body and come after your
sorry butt on the astral (taking thier physical stats and armor with them),
you notice how deadly they really can be.

If they can't project, then they are still better off than an adept with
only astral perception (but not projection), because of the physical stats
on the astral, armor and not having the +2 modifier (being able to view
both planes at once).

Now do you still think they are wimpy compared to astrally perceiving
mages? ;)

> Fox on the Net
> ICQ UIN - 5239612

Justin :)
Message no. 14
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Dual natured combat
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 11:22:26 PST
>> From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
>> Date: Sunday, January 11, 1998 3:03 AM
>
><Snip>
>
>> What would a projecting Shapeshifter mages stats be- the same as his
normal, physical stats, as PNA and other critter sources imply, or the
stats used for astral combat?
>
>> I'm figuring the same as physical.
>
>Shapeshifters are dual-natured. Like all other dual-natured beings
that can astrally project, they use their physical stats at all times
(while dual and while astrally projecting), including the fact that they
get to keep their natural armor while projecting. The only tricky part
for shapeshifters would be which physical stats to use (human or animal
form).
>I say go with whichever form they are currently in when they project.
>

They can only project from human form, astral stats equal to physical.
Cuts down on the astral regenerating, too.

>> Now, the tricky part. Does that mage get an astral combat pool? Is
that a different pool than his normal combat pool? Can he use that
>> astral combat pool when NOT projecting if attacked in astral combat?
>
>Like any other being that can project, you should get an Astral pool.
Again, I'm figuring, yes, he'd have an astral combat pool, and it would
be the same as the normal pool, the stats being identical. They would
be seperate pools, though. Not giving him two seperate pools would put
him at a disadvantage compared to a to a normal mage.
>
>Actually, the pool size might not be the same as his combat pool, since
the Astral pool is based off different attributes (the mental ones).
>

Good point. In fact, it pulls in Charisma, and combat pool NEVER uses
its equivalent, strength. I'd still say a "mundane"shape shifter would
getan astral combat pool, since he canuse astral combat as well as any
physical adept. Thye get astral combat pools whileperceiving, no?

IMO, astral combat is astral combat, and peceiving mages use astral
stats, damage, and combat pool. Shapeshifters would use the same stats
as physical, but SHOULD technically have an astral combat pool, and the
option of using, say, sorcery for astral combat.

>> So, would an attack made on another dual being have to be chosen as
>> EITHER astral or physical combat, for pool use, or could dice be
drawn from BOTH pools, as long as the skill used is not exceeded?
>
>That depends. Is the attacker astrally projecting or perceiving?
That's what makes the difference.
>

Neither- he's dual natured, as stated! OH, you mean the shapeshifter
PC- assume he's in body as well. That wasthepoint- an in body
shapeshifter could have an "extra pool" for astrally based attacks, in
the form of the astral combat pool. Either combat type to be used (not
both, as each requires a complex action). They just happen to be very
similar things for dual natured creatures...


>> Mongoose / Technological progress is like an ax in the hands
>> of a psychotic - Einstein
>
>Justin :)
>

Any other comments? I'm going to assume for now that in human or animal
form, thier stats are the same on on the physical and astral plane.
Stangely enough, it states that Shapeshifter mages can project only in
HUMAN form, with astral stats equal to physical.

Mongoose again

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Message no. 15
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Dual natured combat
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 14:34:43 PST
>> Right you are - I missed that one exeption exeption. Its not stated
if astral strength or physical strength is then the basis for the power,
though!
>
>Well, not really. It's physical strength. Why? Well, Killing Hands
>power is not defined as: do (L/M/S/D) physical damage instead of M
>Stun.
>
>It's: do normal unarmed combat damage (Str M Stun) or (Str)
>(L/M/S/D).
>Seems pretty well defined to me. That way, an adept has, say, 7S
>Killing hands attack. No increases from bone lacing or anything. Just
>use STR as attack's power...
>

Yes, and if using astral combat, isn't strength equal to charisma? So
killing hands does (charisma)(level) in astral combat?


>> Heres a thornier set of questions:
>>
>> What would a projecting Shapeshifter mages stats be- the same as his
normal, physical stats, as PNA and other critter sources imply, or
>> the stats used for astral combat?
>
>Physical. That's why projecting shapeshifters are pretty scary...
>

Well, not that scary, IMO- thier reaction is a lot lower than an astral
mages astral reaction (Twice Intellegence!), and they can only project
in HUMAN form. And how much better are thier physical stats than a
mages mental stats, really? And where do they get Armor? Everyone says
they would get it, but none of them have natural armor!


>> Now, the tricky part. Does that mage get an astral combat pool? Is
that a different pool than his normal combat pool? Can he use that
>> astral combat pool when NOT projecting if attacked in astral combat?
>
>Hmmm... I'd say yes.

Seems somewhat split, but nobody's given a "carved in stone" BTB reason
NOT to allow that.

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Message no. 16
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Dual natured combat
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 14:44:07 PST
>From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
>Subject: Re: Dual natured combat

>Mon goose said on 0:03/11 Jan 98...
>
>> Heres a thornier set of questions:
>>
>> What would a projecting Shapeshifter mages stats be?

>IMO it's the same as for other magicians: Charisma is used for
Strength,etc. That'd make the shapeshifter more or less equal to
(meta)humanmagicians when astrally projecting.
>

Thats interesting, since the companion says they project in human form
and use the same stats as physical. I geuss I coulda checked more
carefully, but whats your "excuse"? Is theresomething that counterdicts
that section (shapeshifters and astral space in companion)?

That bit about projecting in human form seems wacked, sincethier astral
image is that of an ANIMAL unless they mask! My fault for asking the
wrong question, so I'll ask again:

Should'nt they use thier critter stats?

<snip agreement on astral combat pool stuff>

Well, thanks for the confermation.

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Message no. 17
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: Dual natured combat
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 23:51:49 +0000
On 11 Jan 98, Mon goose disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by
writing:

<snip>
> >It's: do normal unarmed combat damage (Str M Stun) or (Str)
> >(L/M/S/D).
> >Seems pretty well defined to me. That way, an adept has, say, 7S
> >Killing hands attack. No increases from bone lacing or anything. Just
> >use STR as attack's power...

> Yes, and if using astral combat, isn't strength equal to charisma?
> So killing hands does (charisma)(level) in astral combat?

Well, no, I don't think so. It's Str, like in Attribute name... Not
(normal unarmed combat power level, namely Strength, unless using
Astral combat) (level).
(Hmmm... That might not fit in the table... Naah.)

<snip>
> >Physical. That's why projecting shapeshifters are pretty scary...
> >
>
> Well, not that scary, IMO- thier reaction is a lot lower than an
> astral mages astral reaction (Twice Intellegence!), and they can
> only project in HUMAN form. And how much better are thier physical
> stats than a mages mental stats, really? And where do they get
> Armor? Everyone says they would get it, but none of them have
> natural armor!

Oh. What a stupid rule. Well, I think I'll just kinda ignore it.
Shapeshifter's TRUE form is that of an Animal, so in astral space,
where everybody looks like an idealized image of himself, he looks
lik a human? I don't think so...

Wait. I know what's going on. He can only project while in Human
form, but in Astral, he'll have Animal form. Why? Well, his astral
form is ALWAYS that of an idealized animal... Heh.
Doesn't make sense otherwise, neh?
(Of course, so the: "My brother's an NPC, so he regenerates in
human form, but I'm a PC, so I don't" rule doesn't make sense
either...)

As for Armor, it's only possible for a Bear shapeshifter, IIRC...
(But think about tiger's Reach and natural damage... Ouch.)

<snip>


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike;
Amber fan and Star Wars junkie; UIN 6947998; WTF TKD; FIAWOL; YMMV; IMAO; SNAFU
FL/GN Leszek/Raptor II/ISD Vanguard, (SS) (PC) (ISM) {IWATS-IIC} JH(Sith)/HSP
Why is 'ABBREVIATION' such a long word?
Message no. 18
From: Andy Gardner <A.Gardner@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Dual natured combat
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 23:08:15 +0000
On Sun, 11 Jan 1998 11:22:26 PST Mon goose wrote

> >> From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
> >> Date: Sunday, January 11, 1998 3:03 AM
> >
> ><Snip>
> >
> >> What would a projecting Shapeshifter mages stats be- the same as his
> normal, physical stats, as PNA and other critter sources imply, or the
> stats used for astral combat?
> >
> >> I'm figuring the same as physical.
> >
> >Shapeshifters are dual-natured. Like all other dual-natured beings
> that can astrally project, they use their physical stats at all times
> (while dual and while astrally projecting), including the fact that they
> get to keep their natural armor while projecting. The only tricky part
> for shapeshifters would be which physical stats to use (human or animal
> form).
> >I say go with whichever form they are currently in when they project.
> >
>
> They can only project from human form, astral stats equal to physical.
> Cuts down on the astral regenerating, too.

Companion P37 states: "Shapeshifter mages with the appropriate Magic
Priority can also use astral projection in human form."

While it is slightly ambiguous I take that also to mean in human as
well as animal form. If you are going to limit it to only one form
then you'd have to limit it as starting from their natural form.
Animal form. In either case regeneration goes out the window when
projecting because it, like other critter powers, is caused by the
interaction between the physical and the astral parts.

[SNIP]

> Good point. In fact, it pulls in Charisma, and combat pool NEVER uses
> its equivalent, strength. I'd still say a "mundane"shape shifter would
> getan astral combat pool, since he canuse astral combat as well as any
> physical adept. Thye get astral combat pools whileperceiving, no?

Sadly they don't. Astral pool is limited to astral projection only.

[SNIP]

> Any other comments? I'm going to assume for now that in human or animal
> form, thier stats are the same on on the physical and astral plane.
> Stangely enough, it states that Shapeshifter mages can project only in
> HUMAN form, with astral stats equal to physical.

See above and my other posts :)


Fox on the Net
ICQ UIN - 5239612
Message no. 19
From: Andy Gardner <A.Gardner@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Dual natured combat
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 23:08:15 +0000
On Sun, 11 Jan 1998 10:16:31 -0500 Justin Pinnow wrote

> > From: Andy Gardner <A.Gardner@******.COM>
> > Date: Sunday, January 11, 1998 7:56 AM
>
> > On Sun, 11 Jan 1998 12:04:01 +0000 "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" wrote
>
> > > > Heres a thornier set of questions:
>
> > > > What would a projecting Shapeshifter mages stats be- the same as his
> > > > normal, physical stats, as PNA and other critter sources imply, or
> > > > the stats used for astral combat?
>
> > > Physical. That's why projecting shapeshifters are pretty scary...
>
> > Don't forget that their normal physical stats are their animal stats.
> > So yes, that tiger is a problem. A fox is fairly inoffensive :)
>
> Well, I would rule that they use whichever stats their physical form
> correlates with when they go astral.

I still thinks that it's guaranteed to be animal form. Afterall,
apart from initiate masking (which IMO can only hide things, not add
or change) the 'shifter reveals it's true form on the astral whether
in animal or human form. I think that an animal appearance leads to
animal stats.

> > > <snip>
> > > > Now, the tricky part. Does that mage get an astral combat pool? Is
> > > > that a different pool than his normal combat pool? Can he use that
> > > > astral combat pool when NOT projecting if attacked in astral combat?
>
> > > Hmmm... I'd say yes.
>
> > Unfortunately I'd say no. Why ? Like the astral stats the astral
> > combat pool is introduced under astral projection and it specifically
> > states that the magician has only one pool.
> > Also, if they had two pools then all the dual-natured critters should
> > have higher threat ratings than their non-dual counterparts since
> > they two pools and that isn't generaly the case.
>
> > This depends partially on my view that an astrally perceiving person
> > IS dual natured. I believe this because it does state that they are
> > vulnerable to astral combat AND can have spells grounded through them
> > (BBB P.146). Grounding spells is one of the hallmarks of astral
> > activity.
>
> > It is true however that all this leads to dual-natured creatures
> > which can be badly mangled by astral creatures due to initiative,
> > especially if pools are being used. That's why personally I consider
> > dual-nature to be more of a flaw than an edge but again that's
> > personal bias. Everytime my character faces astral creatures I'm in
> > trouble and it's not purely because a fox is inoffensive in combat.
> > I just start running out of combat pool for dodging / extra dice.
>
> I agree with you in all but a couple of areas, Fox. First, astrally
> perceiving and being dual natured are two seperate things....with some
> similarities. Basically, when you perceive you bridge the astral-physical
> gap necessary for grounding spells. However, you don't get to keep any
> natural armor. Also, if you are dual natured, you don't suffer from a +2
> TN when trying to do mundane activities. This isn't the case for someone
> who simply perceives and is not dual. This is because duals can see in
> both the astral and the physical at the same time, while mages can only
> view one or the other.

I think that a perceiving mage still has some perception in the real
world. +2 seems far to small a modifier for acting blind, even if
you are taking into account seeing the astral images of physical
objects present. Afterall the modifier for blind fire (and complete
blackness) is +8. And a perceiving character uses physical stats to
interact with the outside world. Would you remove the trolls extra
point of body from natural dermal armour ?
Since mages are IMO not totally blind when perceiving they should be
classified for all intents and purposes as dual-natured baring the
mentioned differences. If nothing else it keeps down the number of
different profiles of magical perceptions.

> Thus, dual natured beings have some serious advantages. A dual natured
> critter that can also astral project is generally a force to be reckoned
> with. After removing the +2 mod for doing mundane tasks, adding armor,
> being able to view both planes at once (making it VERY difficult to sneak
> past one), AND being able to seperate from their body and come after your
> sorry butt on the astral (taking thier physical stats and armor with them),
> you notice how deadly they really can be.

Maybe true, but how many of the shifters have natural armour ? Bear
and that's it, so armour can't really be ruled as a plus point. And
as I mention above IMO a perceiving mage keeps their physical stats.
For some 'shifters versus elves the elf may well have an advantage
there as well but I am picking my examples :)

> If they can't project, then they are still better off than an adept with
> only astral perception (but not projection), because of the physical stats
> on the astral, armor and not having the +2 modifier (being able to view
> both planes at once).
>
> Now do you still think they are wimpy compared to astrally perceiving
> mages? ;)

I've never said that, but lets just say that not being able to stop
being astrally active is a major problem. You can't hide from them
elementals (or even watchers who are quite effective on the astral)
and you can't go through wards unless you start custom making spells,
something my character is now working on.

> > Fox on the Net
> > ICQ UIN - 5239612
>
> Justin :)
>

Fox on the Net
ICQ UIN - 5239612
Message no. 20
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Dual natured combat
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 11:36:48 +0100
Mon goose said on 14:44/11 Jan 98...

> Thats interesting, since the companion says they project in human form
> and use the same stats as physical. I geuss I coulda checked more
> carefully, but whats your "excuse"? Is theresomething that counterdicts
> that section (shapeshifters and astral space in companion)?

My excuse is that I gave the answer that made the most sense to me without
referring to "the book" first. You're right in that the Companion says
they use their Physical attributes in astral space, but it makes me wonder
why... Humans don't, and "they're dual-natured creatures" doesn't really
cut it for me -- as long as they're in their body, sure, but when they
"leave" it, I find it a bit strange that they apparently take it with them
after all, when (meta)humans cannot.

> That bit about projecting in human form seems wacked, sincethier astral
> image is that of an ANIMAL unless they mask!

Not the only thing that's whacked about the shapeshifter rules in the
Companion.

> My fault for asking the wrong question, so I'll ask again:
>
> Should'nt they use thier critter stats?

No. IMHO they should use their Mental stats. Time for another house
rule, I guess...

--
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