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Message no. 1
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Dual Natured vs. Wards Convo (Was Re: Shapeshifters: Why so
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 15:10:05 -0400
On Wed, 26 Aug 1998, Michael vanHulst wrote:

->In a message dated 8/26/98 11:40:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time, WiebkeT@**
->ONLINE.DE writes:
-> I think dragons mask their astral forms so that they do not appear to be
->dragons.
-> In regards to wards, I often wondered, did Dunk reflexivly break all the
->wards that he passed through? Powerful enough, but... seems kinda wasteful. I
->always thought masking should be able to actually turn off the astral part of
->a dual, or at least the size would bear only on whatever formt hey currently
->wore.

Hmmmm.... Dual creatures being able to actively able to turn off
their Dual image. This is one of those areas where: if you say yes, you
take away part of the difficulty of playing a dual being (My
Homemade Highlander Immortals, Shapeshifters, etc.). But on the other
hand, you have to be able to explain (at least to yourself) how a dragon
can walk out of a warded building or area without destroying the Ward.
Sounds like a great place for input, folks. Opinions?

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 2
From: Sommers <sommers@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dual Natured vs. Wards Convo (Was Re: Shapeshifters: Why so
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 15:27:37 -0400
At 03:10 PM 8/26/98 -0400, you wrote:
> Hmmmm.... Dual creatures being able to actively able to turn off
>their Dual image. This is one of those areas where: if you say yes, you
>take away part of the difficulty of playing a dual being (My
>Homemade Highlander Immortals, Shapeshifters, etc.). But on the other
>hand, you have to be able to explain (at least to yourself) how a dragon
>can walk out of a warded building or area without destroying the Ward.
> Sounds like a great place for input, folks. Opinions?

Dragons are known as the big time inititiates of the 6th world. New
metamagic powers are being discovered all of the time. They happen to have
some powers that mortals have not yet figured out. Maybe one of them is to
change the size or shape of the astral form to fit their current form. Or
in SR3 under Dragons they say that some great dragons have been observed to
take human form, but its not known how. Maybe part of the process makes
them change their astral shape.

There's also a quote in Awakenings about an ititiate slipping through a
ward without taking it down by attuning to it.

Sommers, BABY 932
"Hey, this is better than actually getting some work done."
Message no. 3
From: "Mark C. Farrington" <alareth@*****.DWEBS.NET>
Subject: Re: Dual Natured vs. Wards Convo (Was Re: Shapeshifters: Why so
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 15:47:13 -0400
> Hmmmm.... Dual creatures being able to actively able to turn off
>their Dual image. This is one of those areas where: if you say yes, you
>take away part of the difficulty of playing a dual being (My
>Homemade Highlander Immortals, Shapeshifters, etc.). But on the other
>hand, you have to be able to explain (at least to yourself) how a dragon
>can walk out of a warded building or area without destroying the Ward.
> Sounds like a great place for input, folks. Opinions?


Dragons are to say the least, very enigmatic creatures. They have been
doing this magic stuff for what? 10,000 years or so? They know things
about magic that we haven't even dreamed of yet. I think masking themselves
from wards would be pretty much a reflex action.

Alareth - Acolyte of the First Church of the Squooshy Ball
The Shiny Happy Gaming Group - http://www.dwebs.net/~alareth
ICQ UIN - 11468823
Message no. 4
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Dual Natured vs. Wards Convo (Was Re: Shapeshifters: Why so
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 15:58:08 -0400
On Wed, 26 Aug 1998, Sommers wrote:

->At 03:10 PM 8/26/98 -0400, you wrote:
->There's also a quote in Awakenings about an ititiate slipping through a
->ward without taking it down by attuning to it.

Damn. I can't get Awakenings either. Oh well...

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 5
From: Gabriel Birke <GorbiMail@********.DE>
Subject: Re: Dual Natured vs. Wards Convo (Was Re: Shapeshifters: Why so
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 00:13:58 +0200
Sommers <sommers@*****.UMICH.EDU> wrote:


>> Hmmmm.... Dual creatures being able to actively able to turn off
>>their Dual image. This is one of those areas where: if you say yes, you
>>take away part of the difficulty of playing a dual being (My
>>Homemade Highlander Immortals, Shapeshifters, etc.). But on the other
>>hand, you have to be able to explain (at least to yourself) how a dragon
>>can walk out of a warded building or area without destroying the Ward.
>> Sounds like a great place for input, folks. Opinions?
>
>Dragons are known as the big time inititiates of the 6th world. New
>metamagic powers are being discovered all of the time. They happen to have
>some powers that mortals have not yet figured out. Maybe one of them is to
>change the size or shape of the astral form to fit their current form. Or
>in SR3 under Dragons they say that some great dragons have been observed to
>take human form, but its not known how. Maybe part of the process makes
>them change their astral shape.
>
>There's also a quote in Awakenings about an ititiate slipping through a
>ward without taking it down by attuning to it.


A not-so mythical approach would be the following: The shape of the aura of
a shapeshifter looks like the animal but it is not "solid" like the aura of
the animal if the owner is in human form. If the 'shifter is in human form
the aura still looks like the animal but anything that wouldn't block the
physical body doesn't block the aura. (The same applies to dragons they just
have no "normal" animal they resemble).

BTW I can't find the section that says shapeshifters are dual natured. Where
is it?

Gorbi
Message no. 6
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Dual Natured vs. Wards Convo (Was Re: Shapeshifters: Why so
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 20:08:05 -0500
>->There's also a quote in Awakenings about an ititiate slipping
>->through a ward without taking it down by attuning to it.
>
> Damn. I can't get Awakenings either. Oh well...

Available here locally. Contact me privately if you want me to secure it
for you.

---
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 7
From: Wiebke & Birger Timm <WiebkeT@********.DE>
Subject: Re: Dual Natured vs. Wards Convo (Was Re: Shapeshifters: Why so
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 22:24:58 +0200
David Foster wrote:

> On Wed, 26 Aug 1998, Michael vanHulst wrote:
>
> ->In a message dated 8/26/98 11:40:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time, WiebkeT@**
> ->ONLINE.DE writes:

No, that wasn't me...

> -> I think dragons mask their astral forms so that they do not appear to be
> ->dragons.
> -> In regards to wards, I often wondered, did Dunk reflexivly break all the
> ->wards that he passed through? Powerful enough, but... seems kinda wasteful. I
> ->always thought masking should be able to actually turn off the astral part of
> ->a dual, or at least the size would bear only on whatever formt hey currently
> ->wore.

...unless I sleepwalk or type things without knowing it myself...;-)

Blix
Message no. 8
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Dual Natured vs. Wards Convo (Was Re: Shapeshifters: Why so
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 08:32:30 -0400
On Wed, 26 Aug 1998, Patrick Goodman wrote:

->>->There's also a quote in Awakenings about an ititiate slipping
->>->through a ward without taking it down by attuning to it.
->>
->> Damn. I can't get Awakenings either. Oh well...
->
->Available here locally. Contact me privately if you want me to secure it
->for you.

Actually, I figured I'd wait for MiTS... but thanks for the offer.
I think MiTS will have an opportunity to answer many of our questions
about the magical Sixth World.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 9
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Dual Natured vs. Wards Convo (Was Re: Shapeshifters: Why so
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 08:50:51 -0500
>->> Damn. I can't get Awakenings either. Oh well...
>->
>->Available here locally. Contact me privately if you want me to
>->secure it for you.
>
>Actually, I figured I'd wait for MiTS... but thanks for the offer.

De nada. Didn't know if you were a compulsive, gotta-have-all-the-books
type or not.

---
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 10
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Dual Natured vs. Wards Convo (Was Re: Shapeshifters: Why so
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 11:52:12 -0700
>->In a message dated 8/26/98 11:40:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time, WiebkeT@**
>->ONLINE.DE writes:
>-> I think dragons mask their astral forms so that they do not appear to be
>->dragons.
>-> In regards to wards, I often wondered, did Dunk reflexivly break all the
>->wards that he passed through? Powerful enough, but... seems kinda wasteful.
I
>->always thought masking should be able to actually turn off the astral part
of
>->a dual, or at least the size would bear only on whatever formt hey
currently
>->wore.

In SR3, wards are different. You can defeat it in combat, which basically
means the ward will never affect you again, without "killing" it- other people
are still blocked (although you can "hold it down" to let others pass). They
can be killed (with a powerful spell / repeated damage from spells/ special
action after it is defeated.
Also, the creator of a ward can allow anybody to pass. So,
most times, Dunky could pass without mangling the wards (I'm not sure if the
creator needs LOS to the ward, but I doubt it; they may need some way of
knowing who is at the ward when, however). In fact, I'm pretty sure the
creator could give him "lasting" acsess. And, of course, if D (helped) create
the wards, they would not affect him at all (and would likely be rather
powerful, to boot).
The other option is indeed based on masking; an initiate can "attune"
their aura, to fool the ward into thinking you are allowed through (probably
by
reading its creators signature). This is NOT easy (our grade 2 blew his whole
double digit karma pool trying it once, and took drain to boot), but would be
doable for the big D- especially if he knew the creator well. This only works
for "attuned" wards, but it seems that in SR3, all wards are "attuned"
ones.

Mongoose
Message no. 11
From: "Droopy ." <mmanhardt@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Dual Natured vs. Wards Convo (Was Re: Shapeshifters: Why so
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 17:09:07 -0400
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Dual Natured vs. Wards Convo (Was Re: Shapeshifters: Why so
maligned?)

> Highlander Immortals, Shapeshifters, etc.). But on the other hand, you
> have to be able to explain (at least to yourself) how a dragon can walk
> out of a warded building or area without destroying the Ward.
> Sounds like a great place for input, folks. Opinions?

Wouldn't a dragon be able to use its magic to sleaze the ward, so
to speak? :P


--Droopy
Message no. 12
From: Robert Nesius <nesius@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Dual Natured vs. Wards Convo (Was Re: Shapeshifters: Why so
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 23:41:44 -0800
At 11:10 -0800 8/26/98, David Foster wrote:
>
> Hmmmm.... Dual creatures being able to actively able to turn off
>their Dual image. This is one of those areas where: if you say yes, you
>take away part of the difficulty of playing a dual being (My
>Homemade Highlander Immortals, Shapeshifters, etc.). But on the other
>hand, you have to be able to explain (at least to yourself) how a dragon
>can walk out of a warded building or area without destroying the Ward.
> Sounds like a great place for input, folks. Opinions?

One thing we did in our games years back is that a were or dual being
could enter astral combat with a ward and do "stun damage." If
successful, the combatant was considered to have created a hole
in the "tapestry" of the ward. That's probably a bad analogy.
This hasn't come up in my game yet, so I haven't put my thought
into it, although I'll be considering it now. Thanks for the
references you gave earlier to SR3 Ward stuff, Mongoose.

-Rob

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