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Message no. 1
From: Gurth <jweste%smtp@******.HZEELAND.NL>
Subject: Dual-nature question
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 1994 10:20:19 +0100
Are dual-nature creatures always perceiving astrally, or do they have to
switch between normal vision and astral perception like a magician? I
started wondering about this when designing a leshy character (too bad
the game is off, Daniel...). Also, ghouls are blind, but they are
dual-nature. Does this mean they can see on the astral plane, or can't
they (I know blind deckers can see in the matrix, but can you compare the
two?)?



+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+ Gurth + pass the lord and praise the ammo +
+(jweste%smtp@******.hzeeland.nl)+ +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Message no. 2
From: Loki <jek5313@******.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dual-nature question
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 1994 09:26:14 -0600
Gurth:-->
--> Are dual-nature creatures always perceiving astrally, or do they have to
--> switch between normal vision and astral perception like a magician? I
--> started wondering about this when designing a leshy character (too bad
--> the game is off, Daniel...). Also, ghouls are blind, but they are
--> dual-nature. Does this mean they can see on the astral plane, or can't
--> they (I know blind deckers can see in the matrix, but can you compare the
--> two?)?


Not only do dual-natured creatures astrally perceive all the time, but they
do not receive the +2 penalty to non-astral activity that normals do when
perceiving. Joy!!! Seriously though, there have to be some benefits when
you are a walking dare for a spell-grounding (i.e. active link between
astral and physical).

Played a sasquatch once, and he was the best damn astral sentry we ever
had.




--

Dark Thought Publications & Doom Technologies, Inc.
>>> Working on solutions best left in the dark.


LONG LIVE THE POWERPC
Message no. 3
From: Dave Sherohman <esper@*****.IMA.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dual-nature question
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 1994 10:59:16 CST
From: Gurth <jweste%smtp%HTSHLO.HZEELAND.NL@*****.KSU.EDU>
Subject: Dual-nature question

>Are dual-nature creatures always perceiving astrally, or do they have to
>switch between normal vision and astral perception like a magician?

The former. Note also that an astrally perceiving magician is (temporarily)
a dual-natured being.

> Also, ghouls are blind, but they are
>dual-nature. Does this mean they can see on the astral plane, or can't
>they (I know blind deckers can see in the matrix, but can you compare the
>two?)?

OK, all together now... Astral perception is not sight and has no relation to
eyes whatsoever. It just tends to be described as sight because, for most
humans, sight is the dominant sense - and also the only sense which gives
information as detailed/precise as that received from assensement.

As for blind deckers seeing in the Matrix, I find that rather quesstionable.
If the blindness is due to problems with the eye or the optic nerves, they
could be replaced cybernetically or biologically (using Type O replacements
if the problem is congenital or cloned parts if not), with the net result of
the decker no longer being blind. (Comparing the prices of these options to
the price of a cyberdeck, I doubt that there would be any blind deckers who
didn't want to be blind.) If, OTOH, the blindness is due to damage to the
optical cortex, the brain is incapable of interpreting visual input regardless
of its source. (Oops - I meant above that there wouldn't be any blind deckers
_due_to_optical_damage_ who didn't want to be blind. So far as I can tell,
SR technology is incapable of repairing damage to the brain.)

esper@***.umn.edu
Message no. 4
From: Neal A Porter <nap@*****.PHYSICS.SWIN.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: Dual-nature question
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 1994 12:00:10 +1000
>
>Are dual-nature creatures always perceiving astrally, or do they have to
>switch between normal vision and astral perception like a magician? I
>started wondering about this when designing a leshy character (too bad
>the game is off, Daniel...). Also, ghouls are blind, but they are
>dual-nature. Does this mean they can see on the astral plane, or can't
>they (I know blind deckers can see in the matrix, but can you compare the
>two?)?
>
>
>
>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>+ Gurth

With dual nature, I think they get both points of view overlayed. Now as
they have had this all their lives they would be used to it. So if you
have a blind mage just astrally pecieve (remembering that you get a +2 mod
to target numbers to do 'physical' things while astrally perceving ie
shooting etc.) Note comment at start for dual natured creatures overcoming
this modifier. You could even allow a mage who spends his/her entire life
, or a huge chunk there of, to overcome these modifiers.

As to the Ghoul question, while they are blind I believe that they still see
astrally, and hence suffer few penalties.

A'Deus.
Message no. 5
From: Koert Vynckier <kvynckir@***.VUB.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: Dual-nature question
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 1994 10:38:30 MET
Since when can a blind mage see astrally ?
To my knowledge a mage loses his magic if he/she/it loses his/her/its eyes.
This is supported by the background of an NPC former mage in Eye Witness (7316)
who had cut out his eyes so he would never again see what he had seen on the
astral plane when he attempted to leave the biosphere.
Since Physical damage on the astral plane results in Physical damage to the physical body,
it would seem only logical that the reverse is also true.
So if you lose your physical eyes, you lose your astral eyes and the ability to cast
spells (for which you must be able to see).

Night Owl
Message no. 6
From: "C. Paul Douglas" <granite@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Dual-nature question
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 1994 09:28:46 -0500
On Mon, 21 Mar 1994, Koert Vynckier wrote:

> Since when can a blind mage see astrally ?
> To my knowledge a mage loses his magic if he/she/it loses his/her/its eyes.

All the Mages I have played have had 6 points of Essence - Since when do
the eyes carry all six points????

> This is supported by the background of an NPC former mage in Eye Witness (7316)
> who had cut out his eyes so he would never again see what he had seen on the
> astral plane when he attempted to leave the biosphere.

Remember 1 thing about that guy - He was NUTZ - and why wouldn't he be
after visiting the place where all the Horrors hang out waiting for the
time to revisit the earth...

> Since Physical damage on the astral plane results
> in Physical damage to the physical body, it would seem only
> logical that the reverse is also true.
> So if you lose your physical eyes, you lose your
> astral eyes and the ability to cast spells (for which you must be able
> to see).

As it has been said over and over..Astral preception does not rely solely
on sight - actually very little of astral information is relayed in this
manner [sight seems kind of trinary 1 = living thing / 0 = non-living
thing / X = magic thing]
Besides, a blind mage sounds pretty interesting...
-------------------GRANITE
Message no. 7
From: Ryan Brooks <rlbrooks@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dual-nature question
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 1994 11:54:45 EST
>
> Since when can a blind mage see astrally ?
> To my knowledge a mage loses his magic if he/she/it loses his/her/its eyes.
> This is supported by the background of an NPC former mage in Eye Witness (7316)
> who had cut out his eyes so he would never again see what he had seen on the
> astral plane when he attempted to leave the biosphere.
> Since Physical damage on the astral plane results in Physical damage to the physical
body, it would seem only logical that the reverse is also true.
> So if you lose your physical eyes, you lose your astral eyes and the ability to cast
spells (for which you must be able to see).
>
> Night Owl
>

I don't know about that, because if you look at the archetype in the SRII
rule book, of Combat Mage, he has cybereyes with thermographic and
low-light. Since I believe his real eyes were replaced with cybereyes,
from what you say, he can't cast any magic. But the combat mage _can_ cast
magic. So IMHO, I don't agree what you have posted.

Kilian
Message no. 8
From: Necromancer <shilberg@********.UNI.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dual-nature question
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 1994 11:44:34 -0600
Killian, the Combat Mage paid Essence for the cybereyes, so they are considered
part of the mage's natural body, therefore he can use them for casting spells
and seeing in astral space. I think that you wouldn't need eyes to "see" in
astral space because I would think of astral senses as another sense entirely
and therefore not affected by mundane senses.

-------------
Steve Hilberg <shilberg@********.uni.uiuc.edu>
aka Jarred Wellsley <Necromancer>
aka Phaeros Lostchilde <Archlich of the Dark Order, High Necromancer
of Zalanthas>
Play Armageddon <studsys.mscs.mu.edu 4444>!
Message no. 9
From: Timothy Skirvin <tskirvin@********.UNI.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dual-nature question
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 1994 12:47:01 -0600
On the same topic of using different senses, how about ears? It
DEFINITELY is different for them, not hearing the actual conversation but he
(oops) hearing the meaning. Makes a difference, wouldn't you think?

Oh, and I agree that you don't need eyes to see in the astral. Of
course, it's the only way you are going to be able to use LOS spells, but oh
well.

How about this...would a blind mage in astral get the +2 penalty for
perceiving? I wouldn't think so, they're not looking in real space...

----------------------- "Well, you see, they took the Bible literally.
Tim Skirvin Adam and Eve, the snake and the apple...took
(tskirvin@ it word for word. Unfortunately, their
superdec.uni.uiuc.edu) version had a misprint."
----------------------- - Rimmer, Red Dwarf (The Last Day)
Message no. 10
From: Koert Vynckier <kvynckir@***.VUB.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: Dual-nature question
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 1994 21:14:15 MET
>
> >
> > Since when can a blind mage see astrally ?
> > To my knowledge a mage loses his magic if he/she/it loses his/her/its eyes.
> > This is supported by the background of an NPC former mage in Eye Witness (7316
> )
> > who had cut out his eyes so he would never again see what he had seen on the
> > astral plane when he attempted to leave the biosphere.
> > Since Physical damage on the astral plane results in Physical damage to the ph
> ysical body, it would seem only logical that the reverse is also true.
> > So if you lose your physical eyes, you lose your astral eyes and the ability t
> o cast spells (for which you must be able to see).
> >
> > Night Owl
> >
>
> I don't know about that, because if you look at the archetype in the SRII
> rule book, of Combat Mage, he has cybereyes with thermographic and
> low-light. Since I believe his real eyes were replaced with cybereyes,
> from what you say, he can't cast any magic. But the combat mage _can_ cast
> magic. So IMHO, I don't agree what you have posted.
>
> Kilian
>
Since the Combat Mage has paid Essence for his cybereyes, they are his real eyes
, it's as simple as that.
So what you posted is obviously wrong and my point still stands.

Night Owl
Message no. 11
From: Koert Vynckier <kvynckir@***.VUB.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: Dual-nature question
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 1994 21:38:39 MET
>
> On Mon, 21 Mar 1994, Koert Vynckier wrote:
>
> > Since when can a blind mage see astrally ?
> > To my knowledge a mage loses his magic if he/she/it loses his/her/its eyes.
>
> All the Mages I have played have had 6 points of Essence - Since when do
> the eyes carry all six points????

I didn't say he loses all his essence, just the ability to cast spells.
He can use his magic again if he gets new eyes (cyber or grown)
>
> > This is supported by the background of an NPC former mage in Eye Witness (7316
> )
> > who had cut out his eyes so he would never again see what he had seen on the
> > astral plane when he attempted to leave the biosphere.
>
> Remember 1 thing about that guy - He was NUTZ - and why wouldn't he be
> after visiting the place where all the Horrors hang out waiting for the
> time to revisit the earth...
O.K. He's nuts, so what ?

>
> > Since Physical damage on the astral plane results
> > in Physical damage to the physical body, it would seem only
> > logical that the reverse is also true.
> > So if you lose your physical eyes, you lose your
> > astral eyes and the ability to cast spells (for which you must be able
> > to see).
>
> As it has been said over and over..Astral preception does not rely solely
> on sight - actually very little of astral information is relayed in this
> manner [sight seems kind of trinary 1 = living thing / 0 = non-living
> thing / X = magic thing]
> Besides, a blind mage sounds pretty interesting...
> -------------------GRANITE
>
So in your opinion, if a mage loses an arm in astral combat, he loses an arm in the real
world. If the mage's eyes are cut out in astral combat, his eyes are cut out in the
physical world, but that ie would not affect the mage since he's not using his eyes to see
?
Sounds mighty strange to me!
Then what is he using, his brain ????

Night Owl
Message no. 12
From: Dave Sherohman <esper@*****.IMA.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dual-nature question
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 1994 19:11:03 CST
From: Timothy Skirvin <tskirvin%SUPERDEC.UNI.UIUC.EDU@***.spcs.umn.edu>

> On the same topic of using different senses, how about ears? It
>DEFINITELY is different for them, not hearing the actual conversation but he
>(oops) hearing the meaning. Makes a difference, wouldn't you think?

Nope. Astral perception is properly referred to as assensing (yes, the term
is taken from the main SR rulebook; I didn't make it up myself). Examine
this word, please: a-sensing. Without sensing. Astral perception does not
use any of the physical senses. There is no astral sight (though it is most
commonly described in terms of sight as that is the closest equivalent for
mundanes - trying to accurately describe astral perceptions to a mundane is
like trying to explain the difference between red and blue to a blind man).
There is no astral hearing, touch, taste, or smell.

> Oh, and I agree that you don't need eyes to see in the astral. Of
>course, it's the only way you are going to be able to use LOS spells, but oh
>well.

Astral, not physical, LOS is required by spells. For the sake of simplicity,
FASA defined glass as being transparent to astral energy and mirrors as
reflecting it so that they would (normally) be the same thing. But not
always - for instance, your blind mage will never have a physical LOS, but
would have no special difficulty establishing an astral LOS.

> How about this...would a blind mage in astral get the +2 penalty for
>perceiving? I wouldn't think so, they're not looking in real space...

I think they would. Remember that the +2 _only_ applies to purely physical
activity - spellcasting isn't affected by it, but you can't aim a gun
effectively with astral perception. Actually, I'd probably make it either
+2 or +(Normal penalty - 2), whichever is worse because, as you stated, he
wouldn't be looking at the physical.

esper@***.umn.edu
Message no. 13
From: "C. Paul Douglas" <granite@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Dual-nature question
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 1994 22:19:44 -0500
> >
> Since the Combat Mage has paid Essence for his cybereyes, they are his real eyes
> , it's as simple as that.
> So what you posted is obviously wrong and my point still stands.
>
> Night Owl
>
Your point stands as well as a 1 legged stool..You still haven't
explained How you loose 6 points of essence from 2 little old eyes..Nor
how you could base an assumption like this on a crazy man..

Even adepts can cast or at least use magic and few can actually see on
the astral plane..

---------------------GRANITE
Message no. 14
From: "Seth A. Buntain" <enthar@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dual-nature question
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 1994 21:39:42 -0600
Alot of good points have been brought up in this discussion, but I seem to
remeber something (was it the 1st edition rules of SR?)...

"You are what you _will_ not what you think"

crippled, blind, deaf, dumb, handicapped, illiterate, whatever, it all goes
away in astral space. The only things that matter are your will, your
intelligence, your personality, and how much youve sacrificed of your soul to
the gods of technology.

(ie im agreeing with the people who say sight /=/ assensing.)

For example, some one (like me) with poor vision, wont have contacts in astral
space. Now I say that they wont have bad vision either. Everyone should have
pretty much the same vision as everyone else, perfect/standard/none.

Or some one who has lost all his nerve endings to leprosy. He would still
feel the pain of a mana bolt when in astral space.

:)
--
Seth Buntain | "You will find that a great many of the truths
Enthar the Eternal | that we cling to depend greatly on our own point
email: enthar@***.edu | of view" --Obi Wan Kenobi
(V 1.01) GE d -p+ c++ l u e+(*) m(++) s/- !n h- f+ g- w+ t+(++) r+(++) !y
"It's a damn poor man who can't spell a wyrd in more than one way!"
-Thomas Jefferson
My opinions, comments and even facts are all mine.
Message no. 15
From: steven mancini <mancinis@******.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dual-nature question
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 1994 23:53:19 EST
In response to Koert Vynckier:
]
] > Remember 1 thing about that guy - He was NUTZ - and why wouldn't he be
] > after visiting the place where all the Horrors hang out waiting for the
] > time to revisit the earth...
] O.K. He's nuts, so what ?

So given the complexity of a mental instability there may be more
at work inhibiting his ability to use magic than merely his eyes.
People can block out events or attributes that they wish to avoid,
so if this guy (I have not seen the module) is repressing his
fear of what he saw, he may be doing so by denying his magical
aptitude.

] So in your opinion, if a mage loses an arm in astral combat, he loses an arm
] in the real world.

Even though I did not find this in the original posting, yes this
could occur- if astral combat is such that it "snuffs out" the life
force that sustains that portion of the arm, Since the astral plane
is composed primarily of living things and non-living things "appear"
as shadows and lack a physical tangibilty (Gee touch, maybe a blind
mage can employ that in their assensing), thus astral combat may
damage the lifeforce sustaining the limb and thus the limb would
wither and die. Though I do not know a great deal about medicine, it
sounds as if it would almost imitiate Leprosy, where the limb slowly
rots/die as the basic life functions are no longer transmitted to
that appendage.


] If the mage's eyes are cut out in astral combat, his eyes
] are cut out in the physical world, but that ie would not affect the mage
] since he's not using his eyes to see ?
] Sounds mighty strange to me!

Ooh gee... we have a smart ass on our hands. Oh joy!

] Then what is he using, his brain ????

No he is using a combination of senses, including an emotive skill
that can in fact be developed separate from your vision-
Aura reading- which focuses upon the emotive aspects of picking
up someone's aura.

Da Minotaur
Message no. 16
From: Koert Vynckier <kvynckir@***.VUB.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: Dual-nature question
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 1994 09:33:02 MET
>
> > >
> > Since the Combat Mage has paid Essence for his cybereyes, they are his real ey
> es
> > , it's as simple as that.
> > So what you posted is obviously wrong and my point still stands.
> >
> > Night Owl
> >
> Your point stands as well as a 1 legged stool..You still haven't
> explained How you loose 6 points of essence from 2 little old eyes..Nor
> how you could base an assumption like this on a crazy man..

Simple, he didn't lose 6 points of essence, if he lost Essence at all.

>
> Even adepts can cast or at least use magic and few can actually see on
> the astral plane..

Correct, but they can see in the Real world, can't they?

>
> ---------------------GRANITE
>
Night Owl
Message no. 17
From: Joe Bay <bay@*******.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dual-nature question
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 1994 11:32:47 EST
Night Owl, the only 'obviously wrong' thing is that eyes are needed for,
or even related to, astral sight. The astral plane is not the physical
world; you don't have a freaking *body*, much less eyes, when projecting.

Perceiving is similar to projecting, but instead of fully leaving the
body, one goes only a little out of synch.

So, there you have it.

Joe

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