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Message no. 1
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Dumb ways to munch?
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 20:09:20 -0700
:The Munchkin : <snip> I reverse engineered the
:character and discovered that he had spent at least 5 million New Yen and
:40 karma more that he had earned. Most of the Cyber was in headware
:memory (20 points worth) and when I confronted him on it he tried to pass
:it all off as a decimal point problem when figuring out how much he had.
:Needless to say he died on the table while getting his new toys
installed.

That's the WIERDEST munchkin problem I've ever heard of- how did he
abuse HEADWARE MEMORY??? (Skillsofts out the wazoo, I presume- but its
still WIERTD).
BTW, WHY does more HwM take more essence? A bigger drive doesn't take
more space in my computer...
The only answer I can see is that each an every pulse is linked to the
mind / brain in an intimate manner. In that case, a natural way to
"build" some cyber is just to design a (more or less expensive) program,
and decide how much memory it takes. The IPS clearsight / sharpshooter
programs for drones would be nice...

Mongoose
Message no. 2
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Dumb ways to munch?
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 15:48:24 -0400
On Wed, 9 Sep 1998, Mongoose wrote:

->:The Munchkin : <snip> I reverse engineered the
->:character and discovered that he had spent at least 5 million New Yen and
->:40 karma more that he had earned. Most of the Cyber was in headware
->:memory (20 points worth) and when I confronted him on it he tried to pass
->:it all off as a decimal point problem when figuring out how much he had.
->:Needless to say he died on the table while getting his new toys
->installed.
->
-> That's the WIERDEST munchkin problem I've ever heard of- how did he
->abuse HEADWARE MEMORY??? (Skillsofts out the wazoo, I presume- but its
->still WIERTD).
-> BTW, WHY does more HwM take more essence? A bigger drive doesn't take
->more space in my computer...

I agree totally. From what I understand of RAM chips nowadays,
the size difference between a 2MB RAM chip and a 128MB RAM chip is
negligible. The cost goes up fast but not the size, or even the number of
connections.... hopefully MaM will get rid of this rather silly problem.

-> The only answer I can see is that each an every pulse is linked to the
->mind / brain in an intimate manner. In that case, a natural way to
->"build" some cyber is just to design a (more or less expensive) program,
->and decide how much memory it takes. The IPS clearsight / sharpshooter
->programs for drones would be nice...

I still just think it's bad forethought that never got rethought.
You think? ]:-)

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 3
From: "M. Sean Martinez" <ElBandit@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Dumb ways to munch?
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 15:47:30 EDT
In a message dated 9/10/98 3:40:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US writes:

> I agree totally. From what I understand of RAM chips nowadays,
> the size difference between a 2MB RAM chip and a 128MB RAM chip is
> negligible. The cost goes up fast but not the size, or even the number of
> connections.... hopefully MaM will get rid of this rather silly problem.

Considering that Headware memory still costs the same essence as it did in
SR2, I doubt we will see a revision. (One could hope)

Besides, does anyone know exatctly what the size of a MP is?

-Bandit
Message no. 4
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Dumb ways to munch?
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 16:04:27 -0400
> ->:character and discovered that he had spent at least 5 million New
> Yen and
> ->:40 karma more that he had earned. Most of the Cyber was in headware
> ->:memory (20 points worth) and when I confronted him on it he tried
> to pass
> ->:it all off as a decimal point problem when figuring out how much he
> had.
> ->:Needless to say he died on the table while getting his new toys
> ->installed.
> ->
> -> That's the WIERDEST munchkin problem I've ever heard of- how did
> he
> ->abuse HEADWARE MEMORY??? (Skillsofts out the wazoo, I presume- but
> its
> ->still WIERTD).
> -> BTW, WHY does more HwM take more essence? A bigger drive
> doesn't take
> ->more space in my computer...
>
> I agree totally. From what I understand of RAM chips
> nowadays,
> the size difference between a 2MB RAM chip and a 128MB RAM chip is
> negligible. The cost goes up fast but not the size, or even the
> number of
> connections.... hopefully MaM will get rid of this rather silly
> problem.
>
Um why? What's the biggest RAM chip you know of? Ok, now
say you need twice that much memory. What do you do? Go without? NO! You
buy 2 chips. 2 chips = 2x the space. More space = More essence (if it's
in your head).
Same thing with hard drives.

> -> The only answer I can see is that each an every pulse is linked
> to the
> ->mind / brain in an intimate manner. In that case, a natural way to
> ->"build" some cyber is just to design a (more or less expensive)
> program,
> ->and decide how much memory it takes. The IPS clearsight /
> sharpshooter
> ->programs for drones would be nice...
>
> I still just think it's bad forethought that never got
> rethought.
> You think? ]:-)
>
See above.
Message no. 5
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Dumb ways to munch?
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 16:30:00 -0400
On Thu, 10 Sep 1998, M. Sean Martinez wrote:

->In a message dated 9/10/98 3:40:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
->fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US writes:
->
->> I agree totally. From what I understand of RAM chips nowadays,
->> the size difference between a 2MB RAM chip and a 128MB RAM chip is
->> negligible. The cost goes up fast but not the size, or even the number of
->> connections.... hopefully MaM will get rid of this rather silly problem.
->
->Considering that Headware memory still costs the same essence as it did in
->SR2, I doubt we will see a revision. (One could hope)
->
->Besides, does anyone know exatctly what the size of a MP is?

This is a topic up for much debate. I believe there are several
papers (yes, I said papers, like research papers) on the Shadowrun Webring
about "What is a Megapulse, anyway?" Good luck. I believe it's a
fictional term created by FASA to prevent physicists
(*cough*Adam*cough* ]:-) ) and modern-day technomages from disputing how
much space a skillsoft would take up. If you try to read more into it,
things get less fun and more complicated.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 6
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Dumb ways to munch?
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 16:34:53 -0400
On Thu, 10 Sep 1998 bryan.covington@****.COM wrote:

<snip headware memory bit>
->> I agree totally. From what I understand of RAM chips
->> nowadays,
->> the size difference between a 2MB RAM chip and a 128MB RAM chip is
->> negligible. The cost goes up fast but not the size, or even the
->> number of
->> connections.... hopefully MaM will get rid of this rather silly
->> problem.
->>
-> Um why? What's the biggest RAM chip you know of? Ok, now
->say you need twice that much memory. What do you do? Go without? NO! You
->buy 2 chips. 2 chips = 2x the space. More space = More essence (if it's
->in your head).
-> Same thing with hard drives.

So, you're saying that headware memory only comes in 1MP chips and
nothing bigger? Ok, I can understand this and accept it, but would hate
to see about the cyberdecks that have 5000MP of active memory (or storage,
can't recall off the top of my head). Must be pretty big.
And I chose 1MP as a size because if you only have 1MP of internal
memory, it costs you .01 essence, and if you grab 2MP it goes to .02
essence, hence it must be a new chip since it takes twice as much space
and essence.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 7
From: Mike Elkins <Mike_Elkins@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Dumb ways to munch?
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 16:38:04 -0400
>I agree totally. From what I understand of RAM chips nowadays,
>the size difference between a 2MB RAM chip and a 128MB RAM chip is
>negligible. The cost goes up fast but not the size, or even the number of
>connections.... hopefully MaM will get rid of this rather silly problem.

I disagree totally. The size may stay the same, but the heat output and
power consumption scale linearly. Number of connections goes up
log(n)base2 for digital memory (which MPs might not be). The ability to
have it do useful things, though (remember it includes processing power)
certainly scales linearly.

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 8
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Dumb ways to munch?
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 16:55:19 -0400
> <snip headware memory bit>
> ->> I agree totally. From what I understand of RAM chips
> ->> nowadays,
> ->> the size difference between a 2MB RAM chip and a 128MB RAM chip is
> ->> negligible. The cost goes up fast but not the size, or even the
> ->> number of
> ->> connections.... hopefully MaM will get rid of this rather silly
> ->> problem.
> ->>
> -> Um why? What's the biggest RAM chip you know of? Ok,
> now
> ->say you need twice that much memory. What do you do? Go without? NO!
> You
> ->buy 2 chips. 2 chips = 2x the space. More space = More essence (if
> it's
> ->in your head).
> -> Same thing with hard drives.
>
> So, you're saying that headware memory only comes in 1MP chips
> and
> nothing bigger? Ok, I can understand this and accept it, but would
> hate
> to see about the cyberdecks that have 5000MP of active memory (or
> storage,
> can't recall off the top of my head). Must be pretty big.
> And I chose 1MP as a size because if you only have 1MP of
> internal
> memory, it costs you .01 essence, and if you grab 2MP it goes to .02
> essence, hence it must be a new chip since it takes twice as much
> space
> and essence.
>
I don't really want to get into a war defending
something I didn't create. Nonetheless I can see the logic to it.
Perhaps a 1Mp chip is the only one that will FIT IN YOUR SKULL. Remember
this is going into your brain here. Minimal displacement is a plus. We
already have disparities between desktops and laptops. Why would cyber
differ that much?
Message no. 9
From: Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Dumb ways to munch?
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 17:09:50 -0400
David Foster wrote:
>
> So, you're saying that headware memory only comes in 1MP chips and
> nothing bigger? Ok, I can understand this and accept it, but would hate
> to see about the cyberdecks that have 5000MP of active memory (or storage,
> can't recall off the top of my head). Must be pretty big.

You're missing the point. Headware memory costs Essence mainly in order
to stop PC's from walking around with the full collected knowledge of
Western Civilization in their heads. (Including, but not limited to, the
complete works of Freddie Mercury.)

It's a balance issue. Much like Essence itself, you can come up with
in-game rationalizations all you want, but the real reason is to establish
limits on what player characters can do.


> And I chose 1MP as a size because if you only have 1MP of internal
> memory, it costs you .01 essence, and if you grab 2MP it goes to .02
> essence, hence it must be a new chip since it takes twice as much space
> and essence.

Actually 1 MP costs 0.00333.. Essence. It's 1 Essence for 300 MP.

And as for the size of a Megapulse... That was left undefined for a
reason; said reason being that if they tried to guess at 2050 computer
storage capacities in 1989, we'd be laughing at them *today*. (I heard an
anecdote about an old TRAVELLER supplement, in which the far-future ship's
computers were boasted to run with the mind-boggling sum of 500K of
memory.) >8->


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley
sfeley@***.net
Message no. 10
From: Steve Collins <einan@*********.NET>
Subject: Re: Dumb ways to munch?
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 20:38:16 -0400
>:The Munchkin : <snip> I reverse engineered the
>:character and discovered that he had spent at least 5 million New Yen and
>:40 karma more that he had earned. Most of the Cyber was in headware
>:memory (20 points worth) and when I confronted him on it he tried to pass
>:it all off as a decimal point problem when figuring out how much he had.
>:Needless to say he died on the table while getting his new toys
>installed.
>
> That's the WIERDEST munchkin problem I've ever heard of- how did he
>abuse HEADWARE MEMORY??? (Skillsofts out the wazoo, I presume- but its
>still WIERTD).


Actually he had a Cranial Cyberdeck. The other decker in the party was
always complaining that the cranial deck had more memory than his
standard deck. This guy was the worst munchkin I have ever seen. He was
nearly banned from playing in Living City tournaments for life for
cheating, you know how bad you have to cheat there for anybody to notice?
After this I was nice and allowed him to continue to play (new character
of course) but he was not allowed to touch the official copy of his
character sheet. The worst part of it was he wasn't a 16 year old newbie
either, He was 38 years old and had been playing RPG's since before AD&D.


> BTW, WHY does more HwM take more essence? A bigger drive doesn't take
>more space in my computer...
> The only answer I can see is that each an every pulse is linked to the
>mind / brain in an intimate manner. In that case, a natural way to
>"build" some cyber is just to design a (more or less expensive) program,
>and decide how much memory it takes. The IPS clearsight / sharpshooter
>programs for drones would be nice...

I agree, another question, why is anything but the connection's for
Cranial Cyber actually located in the head. Wouldn't it be better to
replace one of the Shoulder Blades and have all the actual components
located inside it then run Fibre Optic lines up to the connection points
in the head. It seems this would be better than trying to cram more stuff
into an already pretty packed part of the body (where you don't have
anything useless to remove either) as well as providing more protection
for the ware as there isn't much padding/armor in the head.
Message no. 11
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Dumb ways to munch?
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 19:24:52 -0500
>You're missing the point. Headware memory costs Essence mainly in order
>to stop PC's from walking around with the full collected knowledge of
>Western Civilization in their heads. (Including, but not limited to, the
>complete works of Freddie Mercury.)

I actually have an NPC with a Knowledge Skill of 20th Century Popular Music,
with a Specialization in Queen. Does that count for anything in this
dicussion? <g>

---
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 12
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dumb ways to munch?
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 18:21:44 -0700
> So, you're saying that headware memory only comes in 1MP chips and
>nothing bigger? Ok, I can understand this and accept it, but would hate
>to see about the cyberdecks that have 5000MP of active memory (or storage,
>can't recall off the top of my head). Must be pretty big.
> And I chose 1MP as a size because if you only have 1MP of internal
>memory, it costs you .01 essence, and if you grab 2MP it goes to .02
>essence, hence it must be a new chip since it takes twice as much space
>and essence.

Although, if you read Shadowbeat, all memory sizes from MP to GP comes
standard on 1 chip, of a certain standard size (something like 1 cm by 1.5
cm). Based on that, they really should have identical essence costs of the
chip. Either that, or rework their headware memory rules to include a fixed
cost for memory plus a variable cost for processing, or update their
Encephalon rules.

Yes, another invocation of that little-known sourcebook. ;-) I actually
enjoyed it myself, as I like Paul Hume's writing.

And it has "The Odd Coven". ;-)

>Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 13
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dumb ways to munch?
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 18:26:42 -0700
>I disagree totally. The size may stay the same, but the heat output and
>power consumption scale linearly. Number of connections goes up

Heat output on a laser-read optical chip? Pretty negligible.

>log(n)base2 for digital memory (which MPs might not be). The ability to
>have it do useful things, though (remember it includes processing power)
>certainly scales linearly.

I personally theorize that computers in 2050 will be using Qubits ...
quantum mechanical bits, which interface nicely with optical memory. That
is, you can put a nice laser on a diffraction slit and generate an
indeterminate phase-space, which can serve as your holographic memory
storage. Of course, a qubit based computer is also massively parallel, with
a number of execution paths equal to the Sigma function (that's the
factorial function, but with real numbers instead of integers) of the
number of qubits. There's more information in various Scientific American
articles ...

Yet another way to use Quantum Mechanics on topic. ;-)

Oh, right, I should get back to finding a simple way of explaining
manifolds and P-branes ...

>Double-Domed Mike

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 14
From: Steve Collins <einan@*********.NET>
Subject: Re: Dumb ways to munch?
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 22:21:11 -0400
>
>Yet another way to use Quantum Mechanics on topic. ;-)
>
>Oh, right, I should get back to finding a simple way of explaining
>manifolds and P-branes ...
>

Hey go for it I was also a Physics Major before lack of funds forced me
to rejoin the real world (ie get a Job), although you do those are a
little above where I am capable of understanding the math. :)

Steve
Message no. 15
From: Michael vanHulst <Schizi@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Dumb ways to munch?
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 23:37:43 EDT
In a message dated 9/10/98 6:20:51 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
acgetchell@*******.EDU writes:

>
> Although, if you read Shadowbeat, all memory sizes from MP to GP comes
> standard on 1 chip, of a certain standard size (something like 1 cm by 1.5
> cm). Based on that, they really should have identical essence costs of the
> chip. Either that, or rework their headware memory rules to include a fixed
> cost for memory plus a variable cost for processing, or update their
> Encephalon rules.
Think of it this way, the same chip can hold either 100MP or 1 GP (for
example) the 1MP chip is not as tightly packed, but is cheaper to create.
Hence the cost difference between the two capacity chips)
By its nature (being implanted in the head) the cyber memory is inherently
the smallest volume possible per mega-pulse. Hence, the more you have, the
more essence. The reason that a 100MP chip and a 1GP chip are the same size,
is because of wasted space on the 100MP chip, as well as a generally
easier.cheaper instalation/manufacture procedure.
Now, as someone else mentioned, why not put the memory somehwere else and
simply run a connection to the part of hte brain that needs it? Would the
essence cost of memory be less if it was in a less "sensitive" area?
Message no. 16
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Dumb ways to munch?)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 22:52:34 -0500
On Thu, 10 Sep 1998 19:07:25 -0500 John E Pederson
<pedersje@******.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU> writes:
>M. Sean Martinez wrote:
><snip>
>> Besides, does anyone know exatctly what the size of a MP is?

>approximately 1024^2 pulses. Duh:)
>
>--
>John Pederson
<SNIP Sig>

I think the original poster meant the physical size of the MPs (ie, what
sizes do MP versions SIMMs come in?)

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

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Message no. 17
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Dumb ways to munch?
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 12:55:32 +0100
And verily, did David Foster hastily scribble thusly...
|-> BTW, WHY does more HwM take more essence? A bigger drive doesn't take
|->more space in my computer...
|
| I agree totally. From what I understand of RAM chips nowadays,
|the size difference between a 2MB RAM chip and a 128MB RAM chip is
|negligible. The cost goes up fast but not the size, or even the number of
|connections.... hopefully MaM will get rid of this rather silly problem.

I don't think it's got anything to do with size.
Think of it as an addressing problem.
(Going into modern day competer terms now)

If you have an 8 bit processor, it is capable of accessing 256K of RAM at
any given time. With creative paging, this can increase to almost no limit,
but the circuitry becomes much more complex.

Wiring all those RAM chips in requires a lot of logic, so that the RAM chips
know which ones are SUPPOSED to be accessed each time, which, in terms of
cyber, would mean a lot more messing around connecting up the ol' neurons to
more wires and logic.

The size of the chip for 1 Mp and 2000Mp might be identical, (including the
onboard login), but the connection to the human brain will probably be a lot
more invasive and complex.

That's my view on why more headware memory = more essense cost.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 18
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Dumb ways to munch?
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 08:06:01 -0400
On Thu, 10 Sep 1998, Mike Elkins wrote:

->>I agree totally. From what I understand of RAM chips nowadays,
->>the size difference between a 2MB RAM chip and a 128MB RAM chip is
->>negligible. The cost goes up fast but not the size, or even the number of
->>connections.... hopefully MaM will get rid of this rather silly problem.
->
->I disagree totally. The size may stay the same, but the heat output and
->power consumption scale linearly. Number of connections goes up
->log(n)base2 for digital memory (which MPs might not be). The ability to
->have it do useful things, though (remember it includes processing power)
->certainly scales linearly.

I stand corrected. I had forgotten totally about heat output &
processing power. Let it never be said I won't admit when I'm wrong (I'm
just hard to convince I'm wrong)... ]:-)

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 19
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Dumb ways to munch?
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:25:15 -0400
On Thu, 10 Sep 1998, Adam Getchell wrote:

->>I disagree totally. The size may stay the same, but the heat output and
->>power consumption scale linearly. Number of connections goes up
->
->Heat output on a laser-read optical chip? Pretty negligible.

I'm going to let you two duke it out and only throw in my 2 nuyen
when it seems things are too wierd.

->I personally theorize that computers in 2050 will be using Qubits ...
->quantum mechanical bits, which interface nicely with optical memory. That
->is, you can put a nice laser on a diffraction slit and generate an
->indeterminate phase-space, which can serve as your holographic memory
->storage. Of course, a qubit based computer is also massively parallel, with
->a number of execution paths equal to the Sigma function (that's the
->factorial function, but with real numbers instead of integers) of the
->number of qubits. There's more information in various Scientific American
->articles ...

I don't know which is scarier: you being able to explain that or
me being able to understand half of it. (Thanks Wally! {physicist friend
of mine, explained his theory of the universe to me, he had it in three
books he intends on publishing, way too far above my head.})

->Yet another way to use Quantum Mechanics on topic. ;-)
->
->Oh, right, I should get back to finding a simple way of explaining
->manifolds and P-branes ...

Cars & fools. Manfolds & P-brains.... ]:-)

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 20
From: Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Dumb ways to munch?
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 10:06:54 -0400
Spike wrote:
>
> The size of the chip for 1 Mp and 2000Mp might be identical, (including the
> onboard login), but the connection to the human brain will probably be a lot
> more invasive and complex.
>
> That's my view on why more headware memory = more essense cost.

Except that headware memory *doesn't* connect directly to the human
brain.. You need a datalink, or an enecephalon, or one of several other
pieces of headware to actually access that memory. In each case it's a
memory/computer connection, not a memory/brain connection. The head is
just a sensible place to put the memory used by other headware.


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley
sfeley@***.net

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