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Message no. 1
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Dunkelzahn...........Spoilers!
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 13:33:36 GMT
"'Spaceman' WD Lee" writes.

>
> Ok I found this on FASA's home page.......
>
oh !!!!!!
It looks like a lot of folks have not been reading all available
material. Considering how many messages on this i just deleted. What
follows could have some serious spoilers if i'm at all accurate.
no time for details, just where to look.





> On the night of his triumphal inauguration as President of the United
> Canadian and American States, President-Elect Dunkelzahn was assassinated
> by person or persons unknown. The tragedy occurred Thursday evening at
> approximately 10:30 p.m. EST. UCAS authorities have released no other
> details to the public at this time. The people of the UCAS, already
> reeling from the scandal of the rigged 2056 election, are in shock at the
> unexpected death of the being whom many had come to see as the only hope
> for healing their vast and often bitterly divided nation.
>
> It is followed by an ad for the new SR sourcebook....
>
> This raises several questions like:
> Is the VP-elect (now prez) really in Damien Knight's pocket?
maybe. Re-read the bit about the pair in Super Tuesday, and compare
the comments about Knight with the FASA flyer about him 'Hearts
darker than yours' 'taste what i have learned'

> Why? How? Who?
Prime suspect 'Harlequin!!!!' See flyer wyrm talk. 'it'll be such a
pity when we have to kill him!'

> Is he really dead?
>
Short of FASA saying 'Yes he is, thats confirmed 'out of game'' thats
the biggest question of the lot! Considering the the Big 'D' would
have access to ED teleport spells he could easily have had a Anchored
'detect mega drek port me outa here' complete with replace with
suitable fake corpse.

> This sort of a plea for spoilers as well. If anybody picks up the
> Dunkelzahn's secrets book and answers are in there, I'd be all ears.....
If the comment thats its a 'if i die post this' is correct oh my!

>
Must go very busy.

Mark
Message no. 2
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Dunkelzahn...........Spoilers!
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 13:38:59 +0100
Mark Steedman said on 13:33/13 Aug 96...

> > This raises several questions like:
> > Is the VP-elect (now prez) really in Damien Knight's pocket?
> maybe. Re-read the bit about the pair in Super Tuesday, and compare
> the comments about Knight with the FASA flyer about him 'Hearts
> darker than yours' 'taste what i have learned'

That was some substitute for Damion Knight, wasn't it? It's been some time
since I read it, and I never really understood who is doing what, but it
seemed to me like Knight had someone (something?) replace him to fight
that creature.

> > Why? How? Who?
> Prime suspect 'Harlequin!!!!' See flyer wyrm talk. 'it'll be such a
> pity when we have to kill him!'

He's definitely candidate, yes. Although other EI members can also be
behind it, of course.

> > Is he really dead?
> >
> Short of FASA saying 'Yes he is, thats confirmed 'out of game'' thats
> the biggest question of the lot! Considering the the Big 'D' would
> have access to ED teleport spells he could easily have had a Anchored
> 'detect mega drek port me outa here' complete with replace with
> suitable fake corpse.

Also look at one of the stories in the Into The Shadows book, where
Dunkelzahn appears in human form. He wouldn't even have to stay really
hidden for a years if he managed to get out of that blast.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Wait a minute, Beavis, I think it's trying to tell us something.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I get a little bit nervous
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 3
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Dunkelzahn...........Spoilers!
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 16:23:31 GMT
Gurth writes

[this assumes you are a GM! you have been warned]






> Mark Steedman said on 13:33/13 Aug 96...
well i've now read Dunkelahns secrets, he he.

>
> > > This raises several questions like:
> > > Is the VP-elect (now prez) really in Damien Knight's pocket?
> > maybe. Re-read the bit about the pair in Super Tuesday,
which i did. In Super Tuesday it notes in the GM stuff on Dunk the
Knight suggested the vice president in the hope the man would be
loyal to him first and the Big D second.

> > and compare
> > the comments about Knight with the FASA flyer about him 'Hearts
> > darker than yours' 'taste what i have learned'
>
> That was some substitute for Damion Knight, wasn't it?
Yes. based on things i've heard i'd say 13th (or even more!) grade,
no drain from any spell! and try that sunray spell he cast. [and yes
based on things i've heard i am serious!]

> It's been some time
> since I read it, and I never really understood who is doing what, but it
> seemed to me like Knight had someone (something?) replace him to fight
> that creature.
>
Until i cracked it te story made little sense now it makes a lot. You
have to remember Ares bought NASA. The guy has been in space (the
void, and 'magic is so much easier here', ie. you can use magic in
space!, but from a comment i heard no sensible PC can)

> > > Why? How? Who?
> > Prime suspect 'Harlequin!!!!' See flyer wyrm talk. 'it'll be such a
> > pity when we have to kill him!'
>
> He's definitely candidate, yes. Although other EI members can also be
> behind it, of course.
Having read the book i now suspect the Azzies, but its more the funny
things seen at the site that have 'horror!!!!' written all over them,
but that could just mean the folks that did it know about the neemy
and made it look like them to cover their tracks against the other
dragons and EI.

>
> > > Is he really dead?
> > >
> > Short of FASA saying 'Yes he is, thats confirmed 'out of game'' thats
> > the biggest question of the lot! Considering the the Big 'D' would
> > have access to ED teleport spells he could easily have had a Anchored
> > 'detect mega drek port me outa here' complete with replace with
> > suitable fake corpse.
>
> Also look at one of the stories in the Into The Shadows book, where
> Dunkelzahn appears in human form. He wouldn't even have to stay really
> hidden for a years if he managed to get out of that blast.
Dunks normal human form is well known, he gave that away during the
campain but considering the dragon in Prime runners has spells at
force 20 nothing a force 20 physical mask spells coudn't solve even
assuming he cannot change into any metatype, the discussions about
Lofwry in Corp shadowfiles suggest dragons probably can.

>
Gurth that was two copies of your sig file .....
something going on? as thats unusual.

Mark
Message no. 4
From: "Damion Milliken" <dam01@***.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Dunkelzahn...........Spoilers!
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 02:02:19 +1000 (EST)
Mark Steedman writes:

> Gurth that was two copies of your sig file .....
> something going on? as thats unusual.

That would be Gurth resending messages that were bounced during the lists
outage, and forgetting to trim the additional .sig file that was appended
each time.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au

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Message no. 5
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Dunkelzahn...........Spoilers!
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 12:26:16 +0100
Mark Steedman said on 16:23/20 Aug 96...

> Gurth writes
>
> [this assumes you are a GM! you have been warned]
>
>
>
>
>
>
> well i've now read Dunkelahns secrets, he he.

I've only really read the actual will so far... Nice ED references in it,
but it raised several questions. For one, who is Jenna Ni'Fiarra? I
always thought she was Alachia, but from the will that seems unlikely --
he leaves the Everliving Flower (ring any bells, ED players? :) to
Alachia, and something else to Jenna Ni'Fairra.

> > > maybe. Re-read the bit about the pair in Super Tuesday,
> which i did. In Super Tuesday it notes in the GM stuff on Dunk the
> Knight suggested the vice president in the hope the man would be
> loyal to him first and the Big D second.

Which, in effect, means Ares has the UCAS president in its pocket. Plus
Damion Knight now owns 34% of Ares stock instead of 22%, two seats on the
board of directors, and more...

> > It's been some time
> > since I read it, and I never really understood who is doing what, but it
> > seemed to me like Knight had someone (something?) replace him to fight
> > that creature.
> >
> Until i cracked it te story made little sense now it makes a lot. You
> have to remember Ares bought NASA. The guy has been in space (the
> void, and 'magic is so much easier here', ie. you can use magic in
> space!, but from a comment i heard no sensible PC can)

Not in ways that anyone has discovered yet, goes the official line. But
you can bet quite a lot on it that the megacorps have tried getting people
to work magic in space, and kept the successful results secret. If you
only release data on failed tests, the world will believe it's not
possible to succeed (yet)...

> > [Harlequin]'s definitely candidate, yes. Although other EI members can also be
> > behind it, of course.
> Having read the book i now suspect the Azzies, but its more the funny
> things seen at the site that have 'horror!!!!' written all over them,
> but that could just mean the folks that did it know about the neemy
> and made it look like them to cover their tracks against the other
> dragons and EI.

If it was a Horror, why would it blow Dunkelzahn up? I'd think it would be
easier for a Horror to get inside his mind and kill him from the inside
out, especially because the explosion would have been nice for the Horror,
but only for about one second.

> Gurth that was two copies of your sig file .....
> something going on? as thats unusual.

As Damion guessed, the message had bounced back to me last week, so I
forwarded it to the list without remembering to put a check before "No
signature" in my mailer.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
See the amazing tourist-eating dolphins!
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 6
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Dunkelzahn...........Spoilers!
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 16:38:51 GMT
Gurth writes
> Mark Steedman said on 16:23/20 Aug 96...
>
> > Gurth writes
> >
> > [this assumes you are a GM! you have been warned]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > well i've now read Dunkelahns secrets, he he.
>
> I've only really read the actual will so far... Nice ED references in it,
> but it raised several questions. For one, who is Jenna Ni'Fiarra? I
> always thought she was Alachia, but from the will that seems unlikely --
> he leaves the Everliving Flower (ring any bells, ED players? :) to
> Alachia, and something else to Jenna Ni'Fairra.
>
So have various people. My opinion was not, possibly her daughter.
Have to reread the princes section of the Tir Taingire again. (p50)

> > > > maybe. Re-read the bit about the pair in Super Tuesday,
> > which i did. In Super Tuesday it notes in the GM stuff on Dunk the
> > Knight suggested the vice president in the hope the man would be
> > loyal to him first and the Big D second.
>
> Which, in effect, means Ares has the UCAS president in its pocket. Plus
> Damion Knight now owns 34% of Ares stock instead of 22%, two seats on the
> board of directors, and more...
>
powerful

> > Until i cracked it te story made little sense now it makes a lot. You
> > have to remember Ares bought NASA. The guy has been in space (the
> > void, and 'magic is so much easier here', ie. you can use magic in
> > space!, but from a comment i heard no sensible PC can)
>
> Not in ways that anyone has discovered yet, goes the official line.
yes but this flyer suggest the officail line is wrong. FASA are
terrors for hinting at things up to years before they give out any
details. The bottle, HB flyer, and well 'running short' anyone.....

> But
> you can bet quite a lot on it that the megacorps have tried getting people
> to work magic in space, and kept the successful results secret. If you
> only release data on failed tests, the world will believe it's not
> possible to succeed (yet)...
>
more than likely. The immortals have kept tricks such as spell
matricies nice and quiet so far.

> > > [Harlequin]'s definitely candidate, yes. Although other EI members can also
be
> > > behind it, of course.
> > Having read the book i now suspect the Azzies, but its more the funny
> > things seen at the site that have 'horror!!!!' written all over them,
> > but that could just mean the folks that did it know about the neemy
> > and made it look like them to cover their tracks against the other
> > dragons and EI.
>
> If it was a Horror, why would it blow Dunkelzahn up? I'd think it would be
> easier for a Horror to get inside his mind and kill him from the inside
> out, especially because the explosion would have been nice for the Horror,
> but only for about one second.
>
Thats relevant, good point. I just don't know really, i have heard of
the 'book of scales' (ED ref, horrors and dragons). I think the jury
will remain out on this one at least untill we get more data.
For now at least 'something happened', 'it involved big magic', 'it
was very strange', 'wheres the body!'

> > Gurth that was two copies of your sig file .....
> > something going on? as thats unusual. >
> As Damion guessed, the message had bounced back to me last week, so I
> forwarded it to the list without remembering to put a check before "No
> signature" in my mailer.
>
Ah ha!. That would explain things.
I have been fighting with local outages as well, the local servers ok
but the outside world has been a bit hit and miss recently due to a
lot of network upgrading, the messages i had bounce over the weekend
never even got to the UK network let alone the list server.

still it all appears to work now.

Mark
Message no. 7
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Dunkelzahn...........Spoilers!
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 09:45:57 +0100
Mark Steedman said on 16:38/21 Aug 96...

> > > [this assumes you are a GM! you have been warned]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> So have various people. My opinion was not, possibly her daughter.
> Have to reread the princes section of the Tir Taingire again. (p50)

Oh, and we can settle one more thing: Lady of the Court is not Alachia
either, because from Ehran (Wordsmyth)'s remarks it seems she's much
younger and wasn't around in "the old days". My guess is she's that one
woman, the Tir na nOg queen whose name I've forgotten, from Worlds Without
End.

> yes but this flyer suggest the officail line is wrong. FASA are
> terrors for hinting at things up to years before they give out any
> details. The bottle, HB flyer, and well 'running short' anyone.....

Running Short must be the best example of all... It's been what, three
and a half years in the making by now? :)

> > But
> > you can bet quite a lot on it that the megacorps have tried getting people
> > to work magic in space, and kept the successful results secret. If you
> > only release data on failed tests, the world will believe it's not
> > possible to succeed (yet)...
> >
> more than likely. The immortals have kept tricks such as spell
> matricies nice and quiet so far.

Yes, but that's partly because they're not being employed by Ares,
Renraku, and what have you. And they can't keep them secret forever, not
if they want to have other folks around after the next Scourge that is...

> > If it was a Horror, why would it blow Dunkelzahn up? I'd think it would be
> > easier for a Horror to get inside his mind and kill him from the inside
> > out, especially because the explosion would have been nice for the Horror,
> > but only for about one second.
> >
> Thats relevant, good point. I just don't know really, i have heard of
> the 'book of scales' (ED ref, horrors and dragons). I think the jury
> will remain out on this one at least untill we get more data.

Can't place the "Book of Scales" right now... You're not talking about the
ED Horrors book, are you?

> Ah ha!. That would explain things.
> I have been fighting with local outages as well, the local servers ok
> but the outside world has been a bit hit and miss recently due to a
> lot of network upgrading, the messages i had bounce over the weekend
> never even got to the UK network let alone the list server.

Is that contagious? It looks like there's been weird things happening
around my area of the net too...

> still it all appears to work now.

*fingers crossed*

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
See the amazing tourist-eating dolphins!
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 8
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Dunkelzahn...........Spoilers!
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 08:42:28 GMT
Gurth writes

> > So have various people. My opinion was not, possibly her daughter.
> > Have to reread the princes section of the Tir Taingire again. (p50)
>
> Oh, and we can settle one more thing: Lady of the Court is not Alachia
> either, because from Ehran (Wordsmyth)'s remarks it seems she's much
> younger and wasn't around in "the old days". My guess is she's that one
> woman, the Tir na nOg queen whose name I've forgotten, from Worlds Without
> End.
>
I reconed she was 'Lady Braigne Deigh' which is the Tir Na nOg lady
right off, some of the othert folks make comments about her not
having experienced the enemy first hand even in the Atzlan book.

> Running Short must be the best example of all... It's been what, three
> and a half years in the making by now? :)
>
over 3, i didn't keep track of stuff like that till about 3 years
back, i only got into SR just after 2nded came out.

> > more than likely. The immortals have kept tricks such as spell
> > matricies nice and quiet so far.
>
> Yes, but that's partly because they're not being employed by Ares,
> Renraku, and what have you. And they can't keep them secret forever, not
> if they want to have other folks around after the next Scourge that is...
>
no, problem is that might be 5 years and most of them thing they are
safe for another 1500. Fortunately some are seeing sense, eg LEO,
Harlequin says in the Atzlan book he'll keep at it (what a suprise HB
opened his eyes!), and from how Ehran talks to Lady of the court in
DUnks secrets i recon hes seen sense as well.

> Can't place the "Book of Scales" right now... You're not talking about the
> ED Horrors book, are you?
Book a dragon wrote on its scales afetr Vergigorm got hold of the
poor thing. It might be out of the legends book rather than horrors
if you don't know it (i haven't read either of those books)

Mark
Message no. 9
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Dunkelzahn...........Spoilers!
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 12:59:44 +0100
Mark Steedman said on 8:42/23 Aug 96...

> > Oh, and we can settle one more thing: Lady of the Court is not Alachia
> > either, because from Ehran (Wordsmyth)'s remarks it seems she's much
> > younger and wasn't around in "the old days". My guess is she's that
one
> > woman, the Tir na nOg queen whose name I've forgotten, from Worlds Without
> > End.
> >
> I reconed she was 'Lady Braigne Deigh' which is the Tir Na nOg lady
> right off, some of the othert folks make comments about her not
> having experienced the enemy first hand even in the Atzlan book.

I haven't read Aztlan, and from what I remembered of the talk about that
book I thought LotC was Alachia... Lady Braigne Deigh makes more sense
now, yes.

> > Running Short must be the best example of all... It's been what, three
> > and a half years in the making by now? :)
> >
> over 3, i didn't keep track of stuff like that till about 3 years
> back, i only got into SR just after 2nded came out.

I've got a flyer that's about 3 1/2 years old, and that mentions Running
Short as "On the horizon"...

> > Yes, but that's partly because they're not being employed by Ares,
> > Renraku, and what have you. And they can't keep them secret forever, not
> > if they want to have other folks around after the next Scourge that is...
> >
> no, problem is that might be 5 years and most of them thing they are
> safe for another 1500. Fortunately some are seeing sense, eg LEO,
> Harlequin says in the Atzlan book he'll keep at it (what a suprise HB
> opened his eyes!), and from how Ehran talks to Lady of the court in
> DUnks secrets i recon hes seen sense as well.

But many of the others haven't, I guess... Lady of the Court doesn't think
much of Dunkelzahn's plans, although Ehran seems to think that's because
she's too young to really understand what he was driving at.

> > Can't place the "Book of Scales" right now... You're not talking about
the
> > ED Horrors book, are you?
> Book a dragon wrote on its scales afetr Vergigorm got hold of the
> poor thing. It might be out of the legends book rather than horrors
> if you don't know it (i haven't read either of those books)

It's not in Horrors, that describes the legend of how Verjigorm came into
being and why he captures and mutates dragons. I haven't read Legends, so
that probably explains it.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
No drinking before marriage!
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 10
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.com>
Subject: Re: Dunkelzahn...........Spoilers! -Reply
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 08:50:43 -0500
Gurth wrote:
>It's not in Horrors, that describes the legend of how Verjigorm came into being
> and why he captures and mutates dragons. I haven't read Legends, so that
> probably explains it.

Captures and mutates? I haven't read much ED since the basic set (and am
unlikely to, I don't have enough time for multiple games), but that sounds
fascinating. Could you give me more details?

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 11
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Dunkelzahn...........Spoilers!
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 16:29:16 GMT
Gurth writes

> > >
> > I reconed she was 'Lady Braigne Deigh' which is the Tir Na nOg lady
> > right off, some of the othert folks make comments about her not
> > having experienced the enemy first hand even in the Atzlan book.
>
> I haven't read Aztlan, and from what I remembered of the talk about that
> book I thought LotC was Alachia... Lady Braigne Deigh makes more sense
> now, yes.
Ah you're missing, the Atzlan books 180 pages long. Good because
Nigel Findley wrote it but find a spare day or two to read it :)
There are a lot of odd references in there, though nothing like the
two phone conversations in cybertechnology, the immortals are better
at hiding the subject of the conversation.

>
> > > Running Short must be the best example of all... It's been what, three
> > > and a half years in the making by now? :)
> > >
> > over 3, i didn't keep track of stuff like that till about 3 years
> > back, i only got into SR just after 2nded came out.
>
> I've got a flyer that's about 3 1/2 years old, and that mentions Running
> Short as "On the horizon"...
is that the one with the HB story in it? 2nd ed SR must be about 4
years old now, i've nearly been playing it that long, but only read
the main book like 3&1/3 years back, i've now read the lot. (but
still not all the adventures or novels)

>
> But many of the others haven't, I guess... Lady of the Court doesn't think
> much of Dunkelzahn's plans, although Ehran seems to think that's because
> she's too young to really understand what he was driving at.
reasonable.

> It's not in Horrors, that describes the legend of how Verjigorm came into
> being and why he captures and mutates dragons. I haven't read Legends, so
> that probably explains it.
Most likely. Ok a few books have come out since but i was playing ED
with a GM that had been buying since it came out and running two
games for a while, hence he has all the books.
While on ED experience of FASA written ED adventures is they are
worse than SR, i don't think ones been found yet thats really been
rated as better than passable, certainly 'shattered pattern' was a
real let down and the group that played 'blades' complained bitterly.

Mark
Message no. 12
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Dunkelzahn...........Spoilers!
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 12:03:33 +0100
Mark Steedman said on 16:29/23 Aug 96...

> Ah you're missing, the Atzlan books 180 pages long. Good because
> Nigel Findley wrote it but find a spare day or two to read it :)
> There are a lot of odd references in there, though nothing like the
> two phone conversations in cybertechnology, the immortals are better
> at hiding the subject of the conversation.

Maybe because they didn't expect anyone to listen in on the phone
conversation?

> > I've got a flyer that's about 3 1/2 years old, and that mentions Running
> > Short as "On the horizon"...
> is that the one with the HB story in it?

Yes.

> 2nd ed SR must be about 4 years old now, i've nearly been playing it
> that long, but only read the main book like 3&1/3 years back, i've now
> read the lot. (but still not all the adventures or novels)

AFAIK SRII came out in mid-1992; I know I bought my copy in May '93
together with some sourcebooks, that gave me the basis for the collection
I have now :)

> Most likely. Ok a few books have come out since but i was playing ED
> with a GM that had been buying since it came out and running two
> games for a while, hence he has all the books.

I think I've got about half of all the books, but I haven't played it in a
long time. Maybe I should start designing an adventure for it...

> While on ED experience of FASA written ED adventures is they are
> worse than SR, i don't think ones been found yet thats really been
> rated as better than passable, certainly 'shattered pattern' was a
> real let down and the group that played 'blades' complained bitterly.

I've only got the one that abbreviates as a cheap joke :) but I found it
below standard, yes... Although SR advetures aren't necessarily all that
good either.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
No drinking before marriage!
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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