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Message no. 1
From: chaos@*****.com (Steven Ratkovich)
Subject: Dwarf stupid questions...:)
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 03:42:37 -0500 (EST)
Ok, stupid question time, once again. Gather round, boyz and girlz as Bull
asks yet another dumb question: (2, actually)

1. What do you all think about D's gift and comment to an ork about the
Elves not being the only race to have an anciant language...?

Now the bigger question...
2. Ok, Dwarves have been on the scene as long as the Elves (not counting
the Immortrals, and possibly the Spikes. I still think that I read
somewhere about Dwarf Spike Babies). Anyways, if they've been around so
long,why isn't their a dwarven society set up? It would probably be
underground, since that's always been the traditional home of the dwarves.

Ok, I realize that the elf countries were really set up by Immortal Elves,
but why not Immortal Dwarves? It stands to reason... Well, I was just
wondering about that. Cee Ya...:)


#######################################################
# -Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich #
# chaos@*****.com #
# Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours? #
#######################################################

"You do more damage out of simple irritation than most
men can do in a towering rage."
-David Eddings, "Demon Lord of Karanda
Message no. 2
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Dwarf stupid questions...:)
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 13:42:00 +0100
Steven Ratkovich said on 3:42/28 Sep 96...

> Ok, I realize that the elf countries were really set up by Immortal Elves,
> but why not Immortal Dwarves? It stands to reason... Well, I was just
> wondering about that. Cee Ya...:)

Here's what I dug up from my ShadowRN File O' Wonders:

------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 13:37:37 -0600 (CST)
From: Sakura <jeffj@**.com>
To: shadowrn@********.itribe.net
Subject: Re: more ranting
Reply-To: shadowrn@********.itribe.net

On Thu, 7 Mar 1996, Terry Amburgey wrote:
> >Arthur Vogel (Democrat/One World Party): A Dwarf lawyer from Ontario.
> >Vogel has made a career of defending ecological causes in court and is
> >supposed to be a killer negotiator. His running mate, Gary Grey, is a Troll
> >Eagle shaman. Needless to say, the Vogel/Grey ticket is considered one of
> >the most "metahuman friendly" (along with the Big D).
>
> Vogel and Grey are stooges for Tir Taingire immortal elves.

No way! Vogel is an immortal *dwarf*! ;)
And now, from the home office in beautiful Pittsburgh, PA, we present:

TOP 10 REASONS DWARVES ARE BETTER THAN ELVES

10.The dwarves didn't cobble together a culture and language out of bits
of Celtic Myth and Tolkien, and then try to pass it off as 'traditionally
Dwarvish'
9. You never see a dwarf walking around with that Elven curled-lip
sneer...you know, the one that makes 'em look constipated?
8. You never see a dwarf walking around with the goofy elven "I love
mousse' hairdo, either.
7. Dwarven mages rule. Who needs a bonus to Charisma when you have a
bonus to -Willpower-?
6. Dwarves can outcuss, outdrink and outfight those candy-ass treehuggers
any day.
5. The immortal dwarves aren't dumb enough to let their presence be known
on the biggest underground BBS in existence.
4. Dwarves don't get people in goofy costumes walking up to them and
saying 'Live long and prosper."
3. Harlequin's an elf. 'nuff said.
2. Read your Tolkien. Dwarves get cooler songs. ("Far o'er the misty
mountains cold" vs. "Tra-la-la-lally". If anyone brings up that
"Hi-ho"
song, I'll perforate them.)
1. Dwarves are the only subrace with the ability to grow _real_ facial
hair. (With the exception of the guys from ZZ Top.)

Daniel "Black Jack" Davy
Trapped in Bug City when the wards went up.
Call the fraggin' Marines!
And make sure they bring me some cigars.

------------------

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It's going to hurt if you fail to miss the ground.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 3
From: "'Spaceman' WD Lee" <spaced@*.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Dwarf stupid questions...:)
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 08:44:13 -0700 (PDT)
On Sat, 28 Sep 1996, Steven Ratkovich wrote:

> Ok, stupid question time, once again. Gather round, boyz and girlz as Bull
> asks yet another dumb question: (2, actually)
>
> 1. What do you all think about D's gift and comment to an ork about the
> Elves not being the only race to have an anciant language...?
Sounds reasonable, if the ED orks have their own language.....

>
> Now the bigger question...
> 2. Ok, Dwarves have been on the scene as long as the Elves (not counting
> the Immortrals, and possibly the Spikes. I still think that I read
> somewhere about Dwarf Spike Babies). Anyways, if they've been around so
> long,why isn't their a dwarven society set up? It would probably be
> underground, since that's always been the traditional home of the dwarves.
>
There are a couple dwarven communities floating around, but
without the flash or publicity of the Tirs. Halferville in CalFree and the
Grand Duchy of Westrhine-Luxembourg in Germany. As for a unique culture, I
haven't any mention of such an animal.....


The Spaceman |God said, "Let there be light." And God
spaced@*.washington.edu |separated the light from the dark. And
Check out the Bill Page! |did two loads of laundry. -Genesis 1:2.5
http://weber.u.washington.edu/~spaced/bill.html
GCC/GL d- s:++ a-- C++ U+ P+ L>L++ !E W++ N++ o+ K w !O M-- V--
PS+ PE Y+ PGP t 5++ X+ R+ tv b+++ DI+ D+ G+ e+ h r z+
MPA/SH/TA S G Q+ 666 y W C++ N+ PEC+++ Dr
Message no. 4
From: Pete Sims <petesims@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Dwarf stupid questions...:)
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 17:32:51 +0100
In article <199609281140.NAA29893@**********.xs4all.nl>, Gurth
<gurth@******.nl> writes
>Here's what I dug up from my ShadowRN File O' Wonders:
>
>------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 13:37:37 -0600 (CST)
>From: Sakura <jeffj@**.com>
>To: shadowrn@********.itribe.net
>Subject: Re: more ranting
>Reply-To: shadowrn@********.itribe.net
>
>On Thu, 7 Mar 1996, Terry Amburgey wrote:
>> >Arthur Vogel (Democrat/One World Party): A Dwarf lawyer from Ontario.
>> >Vogel has made a career of defending ecological causes in court and is
>> >supposed to be a killer negotiator. His running mate, Gary Grey, is a Troll
>> >Eagle shaman. Needless to say, the Vogel/Grey ticket is considered one of
>> >the most "metahuman friendly" (along with the Big D).
>>
>> Vogel and Grey are stooges for Tir Taingire immortal elves.
>
>No way! Vogel is an immortal *dwarf*! ;)
>And now, from the home office in beautiful Pittsburgh, PA, we present:
>
Not stooges, they have their own agenda, but with the elven vote as a
powerful backing, it stands to reason they would be sympathetic to the
elven problems.

>TOP 10 REASONS DWARVES ARE BETTER THAN ELVES
>
>10.The dwarves didn't cobble together a culture and language out of bits
> of Celtic Myth and Tolkien, and then try to pass it off as 'traditionally
> Dwarvish'
Questionable, we've just never heard them talking dwarven, doesn't mean
they don't, maybe they're remembering their previous secretiveness.

>9. You never see a dwarf walking around with that Elven curled-lip
> sneer...you know, the one that makes 'em look constipated?
Of course not, 1) he hasn't got that quivery lip to manage the
expression, 2) the beard hides most of it :-)

>8. You never see a dwarf walking around with the goofy elven "I love
> mousse' hairdo, either.
Have you ever tried to add mousse, and style a brillo pad, when you're
hair resembles 10 gauge wire, there's not much you *can* do with it.

>7. Dwarven mages rule. Who needs a bonus to Charisma when you have a
> bonus to -Willpower-?
If you're not going to play with spirits on a regular basis, fine, after
all, it's one thing being a fancy git, like the elves, it's another
standing there taking the worst the pointy eared fruitcakes can throw at
you, and returning the favour. :-)

>6. Dwarves can outcuss, outdrink and outfight those candy-ass treehuggers
> any day.
Born from the earth and rock, dwarves have the constituion of a rock.
Elves are too high strung, did you know that most of the ruling
fraternity have the most horrendous ulcers, they just can't take the
stress you know :-)

>5. The immortal dwarves aren't dumb enough to let their presence be known
> on the biggest underground BBS in existence.
??? Funny, I seem to remember a few classic cock ups from the IE's. To
their detriment if I recall correctly.

>4. Dwarves don't get people in goofy costumes walking up to them and
> saying 'Live long and prosper."
Or nutters in plate mail, carrying huge axes and clanking around scaring
the natives and wildlife.

>3. Harlequin's an elf. 'nuff said.

>2. Read your Tolkien. Dwarves get cooler songs. ("Far o'er the misty
> mountains cold" vs. "Tra-la-la-lally". If anyone brings up that
"Hi-ho"
> song, I'll perforate them.)
Hiho Hiho, it's off to work..... ooooopps

>1. Dwarves are the only subrace with the ability to grow _real_ facial
> hair. (With the exception of the guys from ZZ Top.)
That's not *real* facial hair, it's a form of abrasive for tunnelling.
>


TTYL
Pete
--
Pete Sims
Heroes or Fools? That's a determination others will make in hindsight. But by
being here now, we make that determination for ourselves, and it's neither.
Lt.Col.T.C.McQueen
Message no. 5
From: Pete Sims <petesims@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Dwarf stupid questions...:)
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 17:24:45 +0100
In article <199609280842.DAA27547@***.ncweb.com>, Steven Ratkovich
<chaos@*****.com> writes
>Ok, stupid question time, once again. Gather round, boyz and girlz as Bull
>asks yet another dumb question: (2, actually)
>
>1. What do you all think about D's gift and comment to an ork about the
>Elves not being the only race to have an anciant language...?
>
In fantasy and mythology, Orks, Trolls, Ogres, etc have their own
language, a guttural and foul sounding language, but nevertheless there.
If you follow Tolkiens view of elves, dwarves etc, then you will know,
that they definately *do* have their own languages, both written and
spoken", most other games follow this same premise, so I don't suppose
FASA will be any different.

>Now the bigger question...
>2. Ok, Dwarves have been on the scene as long as the Elves (not counting
>the Immortrals, and possibly the Spikes. I still think that I read
>somewhere about Dwarf Spike Babies). Anyways, if they've been around so
>long,why isn't their a dwarven society set up? It would probably be
>underground, since that's always been the traditional home of the dwarves.
>
Bull, have you check out the Rockies, and the massive expanse of
mountain ranges in Southern America, or the Alps, Pyranees, the Scottish
highlands, etc. etc. Dwarves don't like intereference from other races,
and are by necessity fairly secretive about their societies. (If you
think about the classic dwarf, you'll realise why). Also, judging by
the (Alledged) treatment of dwarves at the hands of the elves, it seems
logical that they would form their own societies, but at least keep them
fairly secret.

>Ok, I realize that the elf countries were really set up by Immortal Elves,
>but why not Immortal Dwarves? It stands to reason... Well, I was just
>wondering about that. Cee Ya...:)
>
Just because you haven't met any yet, doesn't mean there aren't any. I
seem to recal in one of the Sourcebooks, FASA mentioning that the early
dwarves all used names taken from the Tolkien sagas (apparently it
seemed fitting or something), sooooo... that being the case, it is also
possible that there are some very old dwarves out there. Mind you, IIRC
dwarves were not immortal in Tolkiens vision, just very, very, very long
lived. There's a whole mythology behind the elves, dwarves, orks etc,
which would be completely inappropriate for this list. After all, this
is Shadowrun, not LOTR.

But.... unfortunately, whenever Elves etc. are concerned, LOTR is *the*
reference point. :-(

TTYL
Pete
--
Pete Sims
And when I shall die, take him and cut him out in little stars, and he will make
the face of heaven so fine, that all the world will be in love with night, and
pay no worship to the garish sun.
Message no. 6
From: Benjamin <benjamin@*****.com>
Subject: Re: Dwarf stupid questions...:)
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 19:09:59 PDT
>>2. Read your Tolkien. Dwarves get cooler songs. ("Far o'er the misty
>> mountains cold" vs. "Tra-la-la-lally". If anyone brings up that
"Hi-ho"
>> song, I'll perforate them.)
>Hiho Hiho, it's off to work..... ooooopps
Gold gold gold gold.... (: (smiley hanging upside down for no apparent reason)
Message no. 7
From: bluewizard@*****.com (Steven A. Tinner)
Subject: Re: Dwarf stupid questions...:)
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 23:32:23 -0500 (EST)
Actually, the SR history of Seattle does say that the ORc Underground was
originally founded by both Dwarves and Trogs.
I think it's either in the main book, or the SS that claims that the Dwarves
founded and built the underground, while the trogs eventually took over, and
the dwarves went topside again.

Any similarities to goblin and dwarf animosities from other fiction is only
a coincidence. :-)



FAMOUS LAST WORDS
"Stop handing me things that come apart!"
Message no. 8
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Dwarf stupid questions...:)
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 11:48:51 +0100
'Spaceman' WD Lee said on 8:44/28 Sep 96...

> > 1. What do you all think about D's gift and comment to an ork about the
> > Elves not being the only race to have an anciant language...?
> Sounds reasonable, if the ED orks have their own language.....

All races in ED have their own language, but Dwarven is the main trade
language of Barsaive (dwarfs are the largest racial group, and brought
Barsaive together against the Therans).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It's going to hurt if you fail to miss the ground.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 9
From: Pete Sims <petesims@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Dwarf stupid questions...:)
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 13:15:07 +0100
In article <199609290210.TAA09131@****.parc.xerox.com>, Benjamin
<benjamin@*****.com> writes
>>>2. Read your Tolkien. Dwarves get cooler songs. ("Far o'er the misty
>>> mountains cold" vs. "Tra-la-la-lally". If anyone brings up
that "Hi-ho"
>>> song, I'll perforate them.)
>>Hiho Hiho, it's off to work..... ooooopps
>Gold gold gold gold.... (: (smiley hanging upside down for no apparent reason)

But not just gold, there's all those lovely pretty coloured stones, and
silver, and copper, and ... and... and ... and all those poor saps
above ground don't have any idea... tee hee. :-)

Pete
--
Pete Sims
Heroes or Fools? That's a determination others will make in hindsight. But by
being here now, we make that determination for ourselves, and it's neither.
Lt.Col.T.C.McQueen
Message no. 10
From: "Brennan M. O'Keefe" <bmokeefe@**.com>
Subject: Re: Dwarf stupid questions...:)
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 09:49:40 -0500
> Ok, stupid question time, once again. Gather round, boyz and girlz as
Bull
> asks yet another dumb question: (2, actually)

> 1. What do you all think about D's gift and comment to an ork about the
> Elves not being the only race to have an anciant language...?

This was one of my top ten fave items in the will, actually. In my vision
of the SR/ED world, the Orks might be a bit more forthcoming about their
language than the Elves have about Sperethiel, if only because they have
less to hide.

> Now the bigger question...
> 2. Ok, Dwarves have been on the scene as long as the Elves (not counting
> the Immortrals, and possibly the Spikes. I still think that I read
> somewhere about Dwarf Spike Babies). Anyways, if they've been around so
> long,why isn't their a dwarven society set up? It would probably be
> underground, since that's always been the traditional home of the
dwarves.

Check out California Free State, pp. 67-69. In the SanFran East Bay area, a
Dwarven society is definitely coming into its own. Spectacular underground
architecture, veins of precious minerals and metals left in place and "on
display," almost otherworldly art... Looks like SOMEONE might remember the
majesty of Throal.

> Ok, I realize that the elf countries were really set up by Immortal
Elves,
> but why not Immortal Dwarves? It stands to reason... Well, I was just
> wondering about that. Cee Ya...:)

Could be... Maybe the immortal Dwarfs are just clever enough that they
don't feel the need to prove how clever they are, unlike SOME beings.
Message no. 11
From: "Andre' Selmer" <031ANDRE@******.wits.ac.za>
Subject: Re: Dwarf stupid questions...:)
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 08:56:29 GMT + 2:00
@ Actually, the SR history of Seattle does say that the ORc Underground was
@ originally founded by both Dwarves and Trogs.
@ I think it's either in the main book, or the SS that claims that the Dwarves
@ founded and built the underground, while the trogs eventually took over, and
@ the dwarves went topside again.
@
@ Any similarities to goblin and dwarf animosities from other fiction is only
@ a coincidence. :-)

Actually, if I remember correctly Dwarves becomes Goblins in SR.
Now tell that humans don't have animosity vs Vampires <shudder>.


Andre' `the Odd'

-- We exist because you want us to, because you are
|__|__ afraid to face the facts. We are what you fear
/\ /\ \ in the deep recesses of your soul, yourselves.
|\ /\ /| | It is there in the shadows of your soul and those
|/ \/ \| | of the street that we exist. Through the use of
\/__\/ might, magic, cunning, blood, sweat and tears we
protect you from your fears, from youselves, from
others and keep your utopia, not ours, intact.
Message no. 12
From: bluewizard@*****.com (Steven A. Tinner)
Subject: Re: Dwarf stupid questions...:)
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 12:23:22 -0500 (EST)
>Actually, if I remember correctly Dwarves becomes Goblins in SR.
>Now tell that humans don't have animosity vs Vampires <shudder>.

Well, maybe in your world . . .<grin> :-)



FAMOUS LAST WORDS
"Stop handing me things that come apart!"
Message no. 13
From: Joker <s1057948@*******.gu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Dwarf stupid questions...:)
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 15:02:01 +1000 (EST)
> >Ok, I realize that the elf countries were really set up by Immortal Elves,
> >but why not Immortal Dwarves? It stands to reason... Well, I was just
> >wondering about that. Cee Ya...:)
> >

One query..... When the magic ebbs, how and where do Immortal Elves
hide?? Especially if they assume such high profile positions as Leonardo Da
Vinci (according to the fiction).... Ther ears kind of give 'em away, and
I can't see them cropping them.

More, where do the blood elves hide (see Earthdawn)... it's kind of hard
to hide thorns growing out of your skin. They are still around; I think
Jenna Ne'Faire (or similar) is the blood queen (Refer Tir tairngire and
other sourcebooks).

Where do Dragons hide, too?? Dunkelzahn was obviously active during the
downturn, ammassing a vast amount of wealth and influence.

This all points to the fact that racial traits de-express whan the magic
level drops.... Makes it pretty easy to hide amongst humanity no matter
what your racial variant.

As far as it goes, my sense of balance and proportion protest that there
should be immortal mambers of other races. Why should elves be specially
gifted? All they are are more accustomed and suited to public exposure
(they have good charisma), and they've got good press through fictional
works.

Other races may just not want to shout the fact that they have immortal
members to the mountain-tops. (Which is what Ehran has done in the
Dunkelzahn sourcebook... The YET members were ponces in the adventures,
and they can't have changed that much)


Bleach.

P.S. Oh and yeah... Van Gogh had one ear..... Harlequin had one ear.. I
see a connection forming in my twisted little mind.
Message no. 14
From: chaos@*****.com (Steven Ratkovich)
Subject: Re: Dwarf stupid questions...:)
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 01:42:23 -0500 (EST)
>One query..... When the magic ebbs, how and where do Immortal Elves
>hide?? Especially if they assume such high profile positions as Leonardo Da
>Vinci (according to the fiction).... Ther ears kind of give 'em away, and
>I can't see them cropping them.
>
Sometimes they just get away with it. I knew a guy at college who had very
pointed ears (matybe he's an immortal elf!). Or, it does say in the books
(World Without End, I believe) that they had a stored power supply of magic
that they conserved to get them through the centuries. Maybe they used it
to create a minor illusion most of the time. Or just had long hair to cover
their ears...:)

>More, where do the blood elves hide (see Earthdawn)... it's kind of hard
>to hide thorns growing out of your skin. They are still around; I think
>Jenna Ne'Faire (or similar) is the blood queen (Refer Tir tairngire and
>other sourcebooks).
>
Not sure their;. My Knowledge of ED is lacking severely...:(

>Where do Dragons hide, too?? Dunkelzahn was obviously active during the
>downturn, ammassing a vast amount of wealth and influence.
>
This is another major mystery. Maybe just underground somewhere. Maybe on
Mars (remember the bones from Dunk's Will?)

>This all points to the fact that racial traits de-express whan the magic
>level drops.... Makes it pretty easy to hide amongst humanity no matter
>what your racial variant.
>
This is also a possiblity, and dwarves could have an easier time of it, as
their are dwarves today (I saw aguyonce who,if carrying a battle axeand
wearing chainmail,looked likehe should havebeen in a Larry Elmore fantasy
picture).

>As far as it goes, my sense of balance and proportion protest that there
>should be immortal mambers of other races. Why should elves be specially
>gifted? All they are are more accustomed and suited to public exposure
>(they have good charisma), and they've got good press through fictional
>works.
>
Agreed,although Orks,andespecially Trolls wouldhave a hardertime hiding
unlessthey did revert somehow...

>Other races may just not want to shout the fact that they have immortal
>members to the mountain-tops. (Which is what Ehran has done in the
>Dunkelzahn sourcebook... The YET members were ponces in the adventures,
>and they can't have changed that much)
>
Agreed. As I said before, Dwarves have traditionally been a quiet and
secretive race, who, unlike the elves, don't want anyone to know that there
is a secret to be known. Elves ike to gloat about the fact they know things
that others don't.
>
>Bleach.
>
>P.S. Oh and yeah... Van Gogh had one ear..... Harlequin had one ear.. I
>see a connection forming in my twisted little mind.
>
>
Sick, but possible...:)



****************************************************************************
*******
-Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich
chaos@*****.com
Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?
****************************************************************************
*******

"I say we go back to the ship, and nuke the
site from Orbit. It's the only way to be sure."
-Ripley, "Aliens"
Message no. 15
From: bluewizard@*****.com (Steven A. Tinner)
Subject: Re: Dwarf stupid questions...:)
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 02:47:11 -0500 (EST)
>P.S. Oh and yeah... Van Gogh had one ear..... Harlequin had one ear.. I
>see a connection forming in my twisted little mind.

I always thought there was something there myself, but Van Gogh's ear loss
was rather well documented AFAIK.
Of course it would be fairly interesting to use the connection to freak your
players a little! :-)

"Say, that's a nice painting there Laughing Man. Who did it?"



FAMOUS LAST WORDS
"C'mon, let's give 'em two more turns to live."
Message no. 16
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Dwarf stupid questions...:)
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 12:47:05 +0100
Joker said on 15:02/ 1 Oct 96...

> One query..... When the magic ebbs, how and where do Immortal Elves
> hide?? Especially if they assume such high profile positions as Leonardo Da
> Vinci (according to the fiction).... Ther ears kind of give 'em away, and
> I can't see them cropping them.

Maybe the ears disappear when the mana level goes down? Or, after the
1960s, they could always claim to be from Vulcan :)

> More, where do the blood elves hide (see Earthdawn)... it's kind of hard
> to hide thorns growing out of your skin. They are still around; I think
> Jenna Ne'Faire (or similar) is the blood queen (Refer Tir tairngire and
> other sourcebooks).

The last time this was brought up :) some of us came to the conclusion
that the amount of genetic research done in Tir Tairngire (see the
sourcebook) is because they want to try and find a cure for the thorns.
They only grow when the mana level is high enough, which it isn't in SR
yet, and we can assume (if the genetic research is true) that magical
attempts to remove them have failed, so now they're turning to science.

> Where do Dragons hide, too?? Dunkelzahn was obviously active during the
> downturn, ammassing a vast amount of wealth and influence.

No idea.

> P.S. Oh and yeah... Van Gogh had one ear..... Harlequin had one ear.. I
> see a connection forming in my twisted little mind.

I'll come barging in with my realism once more, but Van Gogh only cut off
part of his ear, not the whole thing. It's suspected he had some disease
which seems to (as I recall reading once) makes you hear a static noise
continually. He probably thought that cutting off his ear might help...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If I had it my way I'd hear you say that it's okay.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 17
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Dwarf stupid questions...:)
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 12:48:18 +0100 (BST)
> > One query..... When the magic ebbs, how and where do Immortal Elves
> > hide?? Especially if they assume such high profile positions as Leonardo Da
> > Vinci (according to the fiction).... Ther ears kind of give 'em away, and
> > I can't see them cropping them.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
<snip>
> > P.S. Oh and yeah... Van Gogh had one ear..... Harlequin had one ear.. I
> > see a connection forming in my twisted little mind.
>
> I'll come barging in with my realism once more, but Van Gogh only cut off
> part of his ear, not the whole thing. It's suspected he had some disease
Maybe the elves do have to crop them :) :) :) :)

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
"Life is a choice, Death....an obligation."-Me
Shadowrun WWW site at http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun
Message no. 18
From: Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@******.stevens-tech.edu>
Subject: RE: Dwarf stupid questions...:)
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 10:36:46 -0400
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Steven Ratkovich[SMTP:chaos@*****.com] wrote:
>>One query..... When the magic ebbs, how and where do Immortal Elves
>>hide?? Especially if they assume such high profile positions as =
Leonardo Da
>>Vinci (according to the fiction).... Ther ears kind of give 'em away, =
and
>>I can't see them cropping them.
>>
>Sometimes they just get away with it. I knew a guy at college who had =
very
>pointed ears (matybe he's an immortal elf!). Or, it does say in the =
books
>(World Without End, I believe) that they had a stored power supply of =
magic
>that they conserved to get them through the centuries. Maybe they used =
it
>to create a minor illusion most of the time. Or just had long hair to =
cover
>their ears...:)

For that matter, I know a guy here at my college who *is* an elf. Thin, =
pointed ears, arrogant...

Seriously, who's going to care, especially if they have minor magic =
(remember, magic was *hard* during the 5th age, not impossible... =
(various minor sources, esp Awakenings)), influence, and long hair.

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Message no. 19
From: Ubiquitous <weberm@*******.net>
Subject: Re: Dwarf stupid questions...:)
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 13:03:37 -0400 (EDT)
At 03:02 PM 10/1/96 +1000, you wrote:

>One query..... When the magic ebbs, how and where do Immortal Elves
>hide?? Especially if they assume such high profile positions as Leonardo Da
>Vinci (according to the fiction).... Ther ears kind of give 'em away, and
>I can't see them cropping them.

Presumably, when the mana level drops, they become human again, just
like how the other metahumans were before the "Awakening".

>More, where do the blood elves hide (see Earthdawn)... it's kind of hard
>to hide thorns growing out of your skin. They are still around; I think
>Jenna Ne'Faire (or similar) is the blood queen (Refer Tir tairngire and
>other source books).

The same reason. Presumably,at some point in the future, a bunch of
elves are going to "goblinize" into Blood Elves.

>Where do Dragons hide, too?? Dunkelzahn was obviously active during the
>downturn, amassing a vast amount of wealth and influence.

They all went into hibernation, I think. Didn't one of them confirm that?

>Bleach.

Clorox?

--
"I dyde shyte thre grete toordes." Fables of Aesop,
Caxton translation,
V15 1484
Message no. 20
From: "Brennan M. O'Keefe" <bmokeefe@**.COM>
Subject: Re: Dwarf stupid questions...:)
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 20:01:53 -0500
----------
> From: Steven Ratkovich <chaos@*****.com>
> To: shadowrn@********.itribe.net
> Subject: Re: Dwarf stupid questions...:)
> Date: Tuesday, October 01, 1996 1:42 AM

> >More, where do the blood elves hide (see Earthdawn)... it's kind of hard

> >to hide thorns growing out of your skin. They are still around; I think
> >Jenna Ne'Faire (or similar) is the blood queen (Refer Tir tairngire and
> >other sourcebooks).

> Not sure their;. My Knowledge of ED is lacking severely...:(

A brief bit of ED background: the blood elves were created by a desparate
act of high magic. As some ED material refers to groups of normal elves
looking for a way to reverse this process, I tend to believe that the blood
elves were a temporary aberration.

> >Where do Dragons hide, too?? Dunkelzahn was obviously active during the
> >downturn, ammassing a vast amount of wealth and influence.

> This is another major mystery. Maybe just underground somewhere. Maybe
on
> Mars (remember the bones from Dunk's Will?)

I seem to remember some adventure (one of the Perianwyr adventures,
perhaps?) implying that at least some dragons were dormant and hidden
during the Fifth World. However, I think it might be possible that some
dragons (Greats in particular) had the option of changing into and
remaining in human form.

> >As far as it goes, my sense of balance and proportion protest that there

> >should be immortal mambers of other races. Why should elves be
specially
> >gifted? All they are are more accustomed and suited to public exposure
> >(they have good charisma), and they've got good press through fictional
> >works.

> Agreed,although Orks,andespecially Trolls wouldhave a hardertime hiding
> unlessthey did revert somehow...

I can buy immortal Elves and possibly Dwarves, but not Orks and Trolls.
After all, the latter two have much SHORTER lifespans than humans.

> >Other races may just not want to shout the fact that they have immortal
> >members to the mountain-tops. (Which is what Ehran has done in the
> >Dunkelzahn sourcebook... The YET members were ponces in the adventures,
> >and they can't have changed that much)

> Agreed. As I said before, Dwarves have traditionally been a quiet and
> secretive race, who, unlike the elves, don't want anyone to know that
there
> is a secret to be known. Elves ike to gloat about the fact they know
things
> that others don't.

I concur. Many Elves (particularly the "known" immortals) seem to want to
revel in their "superiority" to others. I generally see Dwarves, on the
other hand, as practicality incarnate.
Message no. 21
From: bluewizard@*****.com (Steven A. Tinner)
Subject: Re: Dwarf stupid questions...:)
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 22:51:00 -0500 (EST)
>I can buy immortal Elves and possibly Dwarves, but not Orks and Trolls.
>After all, the latter two have much SHORTER lifespans than humans.

Ah but perhaps their less long lived genetic stock is responsible for things
like stillbirths, birth defects, and generally short lived people?
Also, only orcs and trolls that are BORN trogs have the reduced lifespan.
According to Charrette's novel about Kham, his father goblinized after
puberty, and has an increased lifespan, while his mom was born orc, and is
slipping after less than 30 years.



FAMOUS LAST WORDS
"C'mon, let's give 'em two more turns to live."
Message no. 22
From: "Loki" <loki@*******.com>
Subject: Re: Dwarf stupid questions...:)
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 22:48:38 -0700
<SNIP>
> One query..... When the magic ebbs, how and where do Immortal Elves
> hide?? Especially if they assume such high profile positions as Leonardo
Da
> Vinci (according to the fiction).... Ther ears kind of give 'em away, and

> I can't see them cropping them.

The S/R novel Worlds Without End seems to suggest the elvish features
subside during low magic tides causing the Elders (as they're called) to
appear human.

> More, where do the blood elves hide (see Earthdawn)... it's kind of hard
> to hide thorns growing out of your skin. They are still around; I think
> Jenna Ne'Faire (or similar) is the blood queen (Refer Tir tairngire and
> other sourcebooks).

Aina, one of the main characters of World's Without End is gazing upon a
portrait of blood elves towards the beginning of the book and talking about
how her people had suffered, leading me to believe the immortals of the
blood elves found a way to lose the thorns. Perhaps when the Fourth World
came to it's close.

Also, Alachia the Blood Queen of E/D plans to take the British throne as
Elizabeth. Don't think the brits would put a pointy eared thorn covered
figure on their throne, do you?

> Where do Dragons hide, too?? Dunkelzahn was obviously active during the
> downturn, ammassing a vast amount of wealth and influence.

They refer to the dragon's having to sleep, while the immortals don't. If
the big D plans his fortunes and empires well enough, perhaps they can run
themselves while he's away...

> This all points to the fact that racial traits de-express whan the magic
> level drops.... Makes it pretty easy to hide amongst humanity no matter
> what your racial variant.

That's what I've tried to say. If you haven't read it yet, pick up World's
Without End it answers a few questions...

<SNIP>

> P.S. Oh and yeah... Van Gogh had one ear..... Harlequin had one ear.. I
> see a connection forming in my twisted little mind.

Hmmmmmm...

@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

*********************************************
Poisoned Elves
http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
*********************************************
Message no. 23
From: "Loki" <loki@*******.com>
Subject: Re: Dwarf stupid questions...:)
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 23:55:01 -0700
> >More, where do the blood elves hide (see Earthdawn)... it's kind of hard

> >to hide thorns growing out of your skin. They are still around; I think
> >Jenna Ne'Faire (or similar) is the blood queen (Refer Tir tairngire and
> >other source books).
>
> The same reason. Presumably,at some point in the future, a bunch of
> elves are going to "goblinize" into Blood Elves.

I hadn't considered this possibility, but I find it intriguing.

@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

*********************************************
Poisoned Elves
http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
*********************************************

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