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Message no. 1
From: Tzeentch tzeentch666@*********.net
Subject: Earth to Orbit Weaponry Take 2
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 08:19:37 -0700
I don't know why the incomplete version of the article was sent off but here
is the full version.
-----------//-----------//

Well, its going to come up sooner or later when Year of the Comet starts to
make waves on the Shadowrun scene so lets see some peoples opinions on this.

If just from an role-playing angle the capabilities of the Shadowrun world
to knock objects out of orbit should be explored to some degree. Now, in
canon there is little to no evidence of extant ASAT capabilities enjoyed by
any major party. Orbital bombardment weapons are another matter since the
ever-popular THOR kinetic kill weapons have been used by at least one
beligerant.

But any discussion of earth-to-orbit weapons should really concentrate on
what seems to intrigue everyone when it comes up - that of blowing
Zurich-Orbital out of the sky.

Personally I don't see why this is not out of the realm of possibility. Here
you have a station in fairly low LEO orbit following a well-known orbital
path thats been known since the late 1990's (so about 70 years). It's also
operated by an organization that is probably hated by a good amount of the
worlds population and governments. It's also relatively defenseless (unless
FASA postulates magical levels of defensive capability) and its destruction
would have far-reaching impact (not the least of which is killing off a lot
of people hiding out on the station). My bias should be fairly obvious but
I'll do my best to be objective.

Now, let's approach this by areas. I'll break it down into: Technology,
Motive, Defense, and Backlash.

TECHNOLOGY
The capability exists today to knock satellites and orbital constructs out
of LEO. Now, things get considerably more difficult once you move beyond
that orbit since the physical means to reach that location are great -
meaning your ground-based unit is going to be very large, very noisy, and
take a long time to reach the target. I've read military reports on the
viability of ASAT weapons so lets break it down like they do. As much as
possible references to extant technologies in SR3 will be used to the
exclusion of SR2 or 1 since we can't rely on those references remaining
intact.

Space Tracking
Tracking space objects can be broken down into three general categories:
optical, radar, and SIGINT.

Optical tracking stations can be quite small and are virtually impossible to
locate, track, or identify conclusively. Since we can presume that the major
targets of opportunity in SR are easily visible from the ground (Z-O will
have features visible to those using conventional telescopes) then we can
also presume all major belligerents will have the capability to track such
orbital facilities with optical mechanisms. Simple "painting the station
black" are pretty simplistic and won't work anyways. Something like
ruthenium might be more useful but it seems unlikely to be used in any
quantity nor is it guaranteed to be sucessful against an determined opponent
using other means of location. Romulan cloaking devices do not exist in SR
and you can't use the simple expedient of magic so that eliminates most
countermeasures.

Part of this is because most major nations can be assumed to have some
measure of ballistic missile defense networks set up that can also be used
to track orbital targets. With the general collapse of most nations in the
early 2000s proliferation of various BMD systems can not only be assumed it
should be expected. Although not all systems will be designed for space
tracking even late 1990-era systems typically have some level of capability
in the area and with the militarization of space evidenced by Ares deploying
orbital bombardment systems and the establishment of a defensive grid around
Z-O we can all assume that such uses will become much more critical. For
this reason it is quite logical to extend current developments and
capabilities to presume most BMD radar systems have the capability to track
LEO targets.

The SIGINT threat is a major one, especially since stations such as Z-O must
have some level of emissions just to operate as stated. Although much
traffic will be via laser and microwave that does not preclude location via
those means or through the everyday radio transmissions that would be part
of normal station ops. This can be accomplished completely passively from
any location where the units broadcast footprint would fall on the planets
surface.

Uplink Jamming
The technology exists today of jamming the uplink communications to orbital
constructs even up to GEO. These jamming systems are mobile and by 2060
would be small enough to fit into a single vehicle such as a van or small
transport helicoptor. These systems would have the capability to essentially
cut off a constructs communications to its ground stations. And in the case
of important commsat relays this could have extensive effects on a regional
level. GPS systems are typically jammed from local jamming signals that
"spoof" the GPS signal or degrade it to unusable levels.

This is done today, and is typically conducted for political reasons and
extended to Shadowrun it is not unreasonable to assume periodic jamming
attacks against corporate satellite constellations for purposes of PLTG
disruption.

Transmitting false command sets to a satellite is another part of uplink
jamming but is extensively more difficult then text in VR2 would have you
believe. Aside from encryption, specialized data formats, and various
fact-checking routines it would require an extensive support framework to
accomplish. I won't even get into crosslink jamming since that gets into
even more implausible territory.

Downlink Jamming
This is the attempt to deny a groundside user access to a satellite system.
Platforms conducting downlink jamming will most likely be on UAVs or other
mobile systems due to LOS restrictions on UHF transmissions. Other uses for
these systems include disrupting air-ground communications and with SR-level
microminiaturization of jamming systems it is not unlikely to presume a
platform with multiple jammers .

Nuclear Bursts
The threat for this is negligable in Shadowrun.

Physical Destruction: ASAT
ASAT weapons fall into a few general categories: low-altitude short-duration
orbital interceptors, low-altitude direct-ascent interceptors, and
high-altitude short-duration interceptors.

A low-altitude short-duration orbital interceptor is launched into a
temporary parking orbit from which it attacks a low-altitude target
(typically LEO). Both air and ground launched packages are viable with
todays technology and would be considerably more economical with SR tech.

A low-altitude direct-ascent interceptor is launched from a booster into a
suborbital trajectory that directly intercepts a low-altitude (LEO and
perhaps MEO) target. No parking orbits are involved. Both ground- and
air-launched interceptors are possible in Shadowrun.

A high-altitude, short-duration interceptor is launched into a parking orbit
from which it attacks a high-altitude (including GEO and HEO) target.
Intermediate parking orbits may be required in order to engage some targets.
Ground-launched interceptors are entirely possible.

Physical Destruction: Directed Energy Weapons
There are three major types of directed-energy weapon systems: laser,
radio-frequency, and neutral particle beam weapons. If located on ground or
air platforms they can conceivably only target LEO targets with any degree
of ability.

Ground based lasers will likely be limited to targeting optic systems on the
orbital constructs since the difficulty of getting hard (structural or
thermal) kills prevents them from being economical.

Airborne lasers are more viable and will likely have beam outputs in the 2-3
MW range with the capability to get hard kills (and most likely also perform
blinding missions).

Space-based laser weapons are entirely possible (and likely widely deployed
in SR) with beam outputs of about 100kW or more.

A radio-frequency weapon is a type of DEW that uses RF energy to upset or
damage the electronics of a target. RF weapons would emit short pulses of RF
energy (1-10 GHz) with power levels of hundreds of megawatts to tens of
gigawatts. The primary distinction between RF weapons and more conventional
EW systems is that RF weapons actually affect the electronics and not just
the electronic environment, thereby causing temporary or permanent
electronics failure that persists even after the RF beam has been turned
off. RF weapons will mainly target receiver systems with in-band HPM
radiation or computer systems with ultrawideband impulses.

Neutral particle beam weapons are only usable from space platforms but are
entirely deployable since technically there is little difference between a
NPB and CPB systems such as that used by the ANDREWS.

MOTIVE
Of course the technology exists to knock Z-O or other choice orbital tidbit
out of orbit but why would anyone want to? Who would DARE strike at the
unassailable corporate overlords of the Shadowrun world and risk
destabilizing the nuyen? Well, a lot of people.

Major Governments
By and large there is little reason to assume that a major nation in
Shadowrun would back an operation to blow away a major orbital installation.
The government could weather anything the corps could throw at them,
especially if the target was Z-O and the corps suddenly find themselves in a
whole world of hurt. But since the corps are so intertwined with the major
governments that would be like cutting off your nose to spite your face. If
the governments really wanted to mess with the corps they could rescind all
extraterritorialityor something similar.

By major governments I mean the UCAS, CAS, JIS and Aztlan. The NAN nations,
the Tirs and the like do not qualify in my opinion.

Small Governments
These include the various NAN states, the Tirs, England, and other advanced
but second-rate countries. They are typically fairly stable and have heavy
investment from the local megacorps. The risk of a small government
attacking orbital assets on its own is minimal, and given the often obvious
corporate ties they don't even make good patsies for attacking rival
facilities.

Rogue Governments
These are the nations of Shadowrun where the rulers change on a daily basis
and coup d' etat is the primary form of changing rulers. Whether corp-backed
or the local equivalent of policlub supported these nations are dangerously
unstable. It is entirely possible that a nation on the verge of collapse
from corp-supported rebels would use any available ASAT weapons to strike
one last blow. Or even perform such an act entirely on its own to strike at
the "capitalist pigdogs" or whatever euphaism is used. With the corps
casually screwing with anyone who gets in there way it is entirely possible
that they have trampled on the wrong toes in a small country who has the
technical capability to purchase ASAT weaponry. Another possible line of
thought is a small nation set up to be a patsy for an corp to strike at a
rivals facilities but for one reason or another uses its new toys on the
wrong target.

Terrorists
The corps are a convenient scapegoat for many groups. In some cases the
corps actually are at fault while in others they are merely straw-men. But
in all cases the corps are reviled and hated, and any means justify their
destruction. From eco-terrorists such as Terrafirst! and Greenwar to humanis
splinters eager to strike at the "mutie-lovin'" corpers there is no end to
the desire to strike a blow, any blow, against the corps. And what better
target then those right overhead, polluting the night sky?

These groups will be unswayed by political or economic considerations and
are the most likely organizations to strike at the most valuable targets -
the various LEO assembly facilities and even Z-O itself (not to mention OTV
staging points).

Since most organized anti-corporate/government groups can be assumed to some
greater or lesser degree such an action would likely be performed either by
a splinter group of a larger organization or by an opportunistic group who
suddently finds itself in possession of the necessary gear and who cannot be
tracked in time. Depending on the group they may either attempt blackmail or
simply fire at the closest target.

Shadowrunners
Typically shadowrunners fall under the "terrorist" grouping since for the
most part shadowrunners are just poorly organized terrorist groups. It is
doubtful a shadowrunner group could acquire the necessary equipment without
being located and stopped since they lack standard terrorist and insurgent
group security features such as a cell system. The pricetag for an
earth-to-orbit weapon system would also place it beyond the reach of a
typical shadowrunner group.


DEFENSE
Defending against an ASAT threat is no small feat. The sheer physics of
attempting to stop projectiles and beam weapons travelling at thousands of
miles per hour is stunning. Throw in various counter-countermeasure systems
and it is hard task for an orbital defender.

The simplest and most effective countermeasure is to prevent proliferation
of such technology to begin with. There is some evidence that this has been
done in Shadowrun since there is no evidence of battlefield missile defense
systems being deployed in any numbers. However, leftover ASAT weaponry from
the EuroWars (where it seems logical they were deployed in great numbers)
may still be available and corporate research is probably still ongoing on
various platforms to engage their opponents platforms "just in case." The
most likely contenders for active space weaponry research are Ares and
Saeder-Krupp.

However, antiproliferation is only so effective, and in the case of LEO
facilities "homebrew" ASAT weapons are still a threat. As far back as the
1970s there were various plans and research done into modified sounding
rockets and homebuilt rockets for carrying a simple payload into orbit
(typically passive weapons such as metal shards to be dropped in the
constructs path). These systems cannot be easily detected at launch unless
there is a truly magical level of Shadowrun sensor technology but their
payloads likely can be, especially if they drop objects in the constructs
path. Direct assent impact projectiles are perfectly feasable in Shadowrun
but would likely be easier to counter.

In particular a high-value construct will likely have an extensive radar
tracking network and various defense systems such as "brilliant pebble"
antimissile systems and DEW weapons for point-target engagement. Elimination
of passive objects in the constructs path are an different issue and
significantly harder to counter, especially if non-radar reflective objects
are deployed. However, it is not unreasonable to assume the station could
locate the residual fragments from the launch vehicle or that satellites in
the same orbital path as the station will encounter the passive weapons
before the target station - in which case the station could possibly perform
emergency orbit changes until the debris is cleared.

Brilliant pebble systems are essentially a boost package with a tiny warhead
and an advanced sensor package. They will be directed from the platform in
question and will be vectored in through the constructs own targeting and
tracking system. The pebble will boost at several dozen G's towards the
target and likely deploy various systems to destroy the target, ranging from
simple impact to deplying nets or objects to degrade the assending weapons
guidance. Some pebbles could also be nuclear tipped but this seems unlikely.

DEW systems are another measure and in space could be very effective. Their
biggest problem is that they are typically incapable of effectively
penetrating the atmosphere/space boundry without obscene amounts of power
and effective space-based particle beams cannot do so at all. They will be
deployed much as pebbles are, with even fast target acquisition and
engagement times. It is not unreasonable to assume that all ASAT systems
have some measure of protection against DEW systems, such as rapid rotation,
aerosol deployment, or ablative layers.

Armoring an orbital construct is usually a laughable proposition unless its
built into a planetoid o something similar. Not only will a usful amount of
armor weigh dozens or even hundreds of tons it is still no guarantee of
safety since it is impossible to armor important systems on a construct such
as the solar cells or antennas.

Passive defense measures can of course be employed and this includes such
things as painting the bottom of the stations black. Of course this is a
futile task since it does not mask the distinctive "gleam" of constructs as
light strikes their solar panels nor does it impede any professional effort
to track the construct visually or on radar. Some type of radar reflective
or absorbing material is also an option, but the sheer difficulty of hiding
anything against the background of space also makes that a fairly untenable
countermeasure, especially if the builders still want a somewhat efficient
station (hiding the thermal output of such an station borders on the
impossible).

Periodic orbital changes are a possibility but are of dubious use against
any ASAT system, not to mention such a change could have fatal consequences
in as crowded an orbital environment as LEO.

Against lasers there is little threat of physical destruction (unless from
another space-based system) and most optics will be easily replacable in
case of blinding damage. Hard thermal damage can be mitigated with
reflective aerosols or surface coatings on the station itself.

The best countermeasures for an orbital construct are to either move higher
up the orbital well or somehow prevent from being shot at in the first
place. In the case of Z-O the threat of corporate relatiation and social
instability are the biggest deterrants. Of course, its easily accessible
location and importance makes it probably the #1 target opportunity for
anyone thinking of using an ASAT. The fact that the station and othe
rimportant LEO targets have not been targeted for destruction is due to the
demands of the story and not any technical or philosophical restriction on
those who want to blow it away. Retaliation means absolutely nothing to
fanatics and finding a terrorist cell responsible for such an action could
feasably be impossible since an ASAT can be deployed from almost anywhere,
requires minimal to no technical knowledge, and could have been backed by
almost anyone.

BACKLASH
In many cases destroying an orbital facility would be an act of war.
However, depending on the treaties and government in question a claim of
national territory could be applied to the space "Above" a country. Since
obviously the UN protocols related to space are null and void it is not
unreasonable to assume that nations could assert "territorial claims" on the
aerospace above their countries. In particular, Aztlan and the Tirs would
probably back up a "clear skies" policy with ASAT weaponry. Other countries
may well follow suit and ban such items as reconnaissance satellites from
overflying their territory and blow away any that are identified as such.

Destruction of a major orbital construct at the hands of a rogue nation or
terrorist would have two far reaching impacts. For one police agencies would
immediately step up anti-proliferation efforts and attempt to trace where
the equipment came from (based on analysis of any weapon fragments
recovered). Focus will be on the location of launch on the assumption that
the group was from the local area. In most cases this will likely be
correct. The second major effect would be further miliaterization of the
orbital arena. Although of dubious usefuless it stands to reason the other
major LEO facilities would get upgraded defensive systems and some sites
would potentially be moved to higher orbit if the threat was deemed severe
enough (multiple installations hit).

The oft-mentioned corporate reprisal for destruction of the Z-O or similar
facility would likely be great, with the entire Corporate Court backing any
location attempts. Of course this assumes that the destruction was not
corporate backed by a member of the Court to begin with or that the people
who conducted the action care anyways. If the group responsible could care
less if they are cought or what happens to their families because it is for
The Cause (many religious and insurgent groups would display such attitudes)
then the corps and governments can only react. They will unlikely be able to
cow further attempts against installations since the first groups will
become martyrs. some terrorist groups may even be able to remain
undiscovered if they are careful enough, surveillance and target tracking
are not so advanced in Shadowrun that it is impossible to not be tracked.
Obviously in most games the gamemaster will mandate corporate response (no
matter how implausible) but outside of the player characters it is entirely
possible (but not likely) that a group could strike against LEO facilities
and remain undiscovered.

OTHER NOTES
Various magical spells such as Vehicle Mask or spirit powers could be used
to conceal an projectile ASAT weapon until it leaves the manasphere, giving
target installations very little time (measured in seconds) to respond.
Spirit movement powers can also "boost" an ASAT to great height and could
even essentially replace aircraft for air lauches (though the ASAT itself
would have to be smarter).

With the examples of Shadowrun laser technology already seen a ground based
blinding ASAT system could be mounted in a mobile platform as small as a
truck and likely have target engagement times of several minutes at a time
(with SR energy cell densities).

Comments? Suggestions?
Ken
---------------------------
There's a war out there, old friend, a world war. And it's not about who's
got the most bullets, it's about who controls the information. What we see
and hear, how we work, what we think, it's all about the information!
Cosmo, 'Sneakers'
Message no. 2
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Earth to Orbit Weaponry Take 2
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 13:35:05 -0500
From: Tzeentch
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 10:20 AM

> But any discussion of earth-to-orbit weapons should really
> concentrate on what seems to intrigue everyone when it comes
> up - that of blowing Zurich-Orbital out of the sky.

I know a lot of people would like to, but I don't see how it would be a good
thing or how it would accomplish much more than causing a great deal of
turmoil in the economy (which would recover fairly readily in short order,
IMHO, because I feel fairly certain that they have extensive backups of all
their data).

But if you want to try, I think you should definitely have a shot at it, so
to speak, and the technology is mostly there now, as you point out. Knock
yourself out.... <g>

> Personally I don't see why this is not out of the realm of
> possibility. Here you have a station in fairly low LEO orbit
> following a well-known orbital path thats been known since
> the late 1990's (so about 70 years).

Unless, of course, AresSpace changed the orbit while in the process of
stabilizing it. They may have moved it further out from the planet, or
otherwise altered its position and path. While expensive and unlikely, it's
not out of the realm of possibility.

Z-O Gemeinschaft itself could have had the orbit altered when it purchased
the station from Ares.

> It's also relatively defenseless (unless
> FASA postulates magical levels of defensive capability) and its
> destruction would have far-reaching impact (not the least of
> which is killing off a lot of people hiding out on the station).

Given the technology, I'm not sure *how* far-reaching the consequences would
be. I'm fairly certain that Z-O Gemeinschaft and the Corporate Court have a
host of contingency plans for keeping things running comparatively smoothly
in the face of what has to be a common line of thought.

> Since we can presume that the major
> targets of opportunity in SR are easily visible from the ground
> (Z-O will have features visible to those using conventional
> telescopes) then we can also presume all major belligerents will
> have the capability to track such orbital facilities with optical
> mechanisms.

Assuming that the thing is still in LEO; I honestly haven't done a lot of
research, so I can't say for certain if they left it there or not. My gut
tells me that they didn't, but what the hell do I know? I'm a rank amateur
in things like this, and I'm not a gearhead like you are.

> Simple "painting the station black" are pretty simplistic and
> won't work anyways. Something like ruthenium might be more useful
> but it seems unlikely to be used in any quantity nor is it
> guaranteed to be sucessful against an determined opponent using
> other means of location.

Not guaranteed, no, but I know for damn sure that if I was doing something
like that, and I had the wherewithal (as Z-OG and the CC have), a ruthenium
polymer skin and an assload of imaging scanners would be one of the major
investments I'd make against optical tracking.

Will it protect me and my station against other means of tracking? No, but
it would sure as hell make me feel better about some of the easier means of
locking on to me.

I'm going to leave most of the rest of this alone, since it's technically
beyond me.

> Nuclear Bursts
> The threat for this is negligable in Shadowrun.

Negligible? How so? An alarming number of nations and corporations are
nuclear powers in SR, and some of them aren't all that stable to begin with.

> MOTIVE
> Of course the technology exists to knock Z-O or other choice
> orbital tidbit out of orbit but why would anyone want to? Who
> would DARE strike at the unassailable corporate overlords of
> the Shadowrun world and risk destabilizing the nuyen?

You make it sound like this is a common attitude, Ken; I don't think it is.
Like you say yourself, I believe a lot of people would have thoughts like
this.

I just don't think that it would accomplish much. If you and I are thinking
it, the people who would be really affected (the megas, the CC, Z-OG) are
going to have thought of it, too, and will (IMHO) have a lot of contingency
plans in place just in case any of this were to be implemented. I don't
think just shooting down the Z-O station, emotionally satisfying as it might
be, will do much towards destabilizing the nuyen. Blowing up Z-O would have
to be just one very small part of a much larger operation that, again IMHO,
couldn't escape notice as the thing started moving along.

> The government could weather anything the corps could throw at
> them, especially if the target was Z-O and the corps suddenly find
> themselves in a whole world of hurt.

Which I don't think they would, but we'll accept that they would be for the
sake of this discussion.

> By major governments I mean the UCAS, CAS, JIS and Aztlan. The
> NAN nations, the Tirs and the like do not qualify in my opinion.

I think you're making a mistake there, at least in the case of a couple of
the NAN states and Tir Tairngire, but that's a personal assessment based on
nothing but my gut.

> Terrorists
> These groups will be unswayed by political or economic considerations
> and are the most likely organizations to strike at the most valuable
> targets - the various LEO assembly facilities and even Z-O itself (not
> to mention OTV staging points).

Okay, I've not had a lot of sleep the past couple of days. Refresh my
memory on some of the TLAs you're using.

LEO == Low Earth Orbit
GEO == Geosynchronous Earth Orbit
HEO == High Earth Orbit

Those I recognize and remember, even in my current addled state. What's
OTV, again? How about a brief primer on a lot of the normal space-related
TLAs, for the observers out there?

--
Patrick E. Goodman
remo@***.net
"I'm going to tell you something cool." -- Gene Wolfe
http://communities.msn.com/ShadowrunDataHaven/
Message no. 3
From: Ken Peters tzeentch666@*********.net
Subject: Earth to Orbit Weaponry Take 2
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 12:07:51 -0700
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.net>


[BYE BYE Z-O IN THE SKY]
>I know a lot of people would like to, but I don't see how it would be a
good
>thing or how it would accomplish much more than causing a great deal of
>turmoil in the economy (which would recover fairly readily in short order,
>IMHO, because I feel fairly certain that they have extensive backups of all
>their data).


It would have an amazing impact. HEre you have the very symbol of the
Corporate Court, an unassailable bastion of corporate power sitting there in
the sky mocking the nations on earth with its power. It's not the station
itself that is important, it's what the station represents. Look at the
various comments on DRF/DS whenever it comes up, pretty inflamed comments
and it does not even exist in our world!

It's like Fort Knox, theres no gold there but damn, look at all the
Hollywood movies that say their is, its the image thats important.

[MOVING ORBIT]

>Unless, of course, AresSpace changed the orbit while in the process of
>stabilizing it. They may have moved it further out from the planet, or
>otherwise altered its position and path. While expensive and unlikely,
it's
>not out of the realm of possibility.


Since the station has been up there a long, long time it seems highly likely
it might not be on the same orbital path it once was for various reasons
(stationkeeping, orbital changes for security or keep it out of the way of
orbital debris, etc).

>Z-O Gemeinschaft itself could have had the orbit altered when it purchased
>the station from Ares.


Also likely.

[CONSEQUENCES]
>Given the technology, I'm not sure *how* far-reaching the consequences
would
>be. I'm fairly certain that Z-O Gemeinschaft and the Corporate Court have
a
>host of contingency plans for keeping things running comparatively smoothly
>in the face of what has to be a common line of thought.


Oh I'm sure they do, they would have to be insane not to, especially against
the possibility of an attack on an VERY inviting target.

[LEO]
>Assuming that the thing is still in LEO; I honestly haven't done a lot of
>research, so I can't say for certain if they left it there or not. My gut
>tells me that they didn't, but what the hell do I know? I'm a rank amateur
>in things like this, and I'm not a gearhead like you are.


I certainly don't remember anything that suggested otherwise. And if LEO it
would be easily visible to the naked eye (light flares from the solar panels
etc). You could pick out some details using a telescope on the ground.

Locating the station is not rocket science, calculating its orbital path may
be a bit harder but if you've got a hard-on to blow the station up there are
a million ways to find it out.

[VISUAL LOCATION]
>Not guaranteed, no, but I know for damn sure that if I was doing something
>like that, and I had the wherewithal (as Z-OG and the CC have), a ruthenium
>polymer skin and an assload of imaging scanners would be one of the major
>investments I'd make against optical tracking.


True, but damn that would be expensive for upkeep! You would be replacing
stuff all the time. Not to mention it might very well be a safety risk for
vessels attempting to find the station (unless you only need to ruthy the
"bottom" of the station).

>Will it protect me and my station against other means of tracking? No, but
>it would sure as hell make me feel better about some of the easier means of
>locking on to me.


True, although in the larger scheme of things its of negligable use. I could
see them doing it though.

Best bet for Z-O would be to move station operations (though its unlikely
they could move the station) to GEO or an LaGrange point or something. If
this happens in canon it should happen in Year of the Comet before they
introduce tech that CAN be used by players to blow the station to trash.

>I'm going to leave most of the rest of this alone, since it's technically
>beyond me.
>
>> Nuclear Bursts
>> The threat for this is negligable in Shadowrun.
>
>Negligible? How so? An alarming number of nations and corporations are
>nuclear powers in SR, and some of them aren't all that stable to begin
with.


Detonating a nuke in orbit would have the impact of probably starting a
world war. I don't see that as being a possibility in Shadowrun simply for
story reasons. Of course I may be way out of line, especially since if it
happened in canon they can simply write-out any annoying details (like they
did with the Cermak blast fnord).

An nuclear detonation in LEO would knock out an assload of nearby
satellites,stations, and OTVs. The EMP pulse would likely cause massive
damage in the region over which it was detonated.

I have some info on nukes as ASATS I could post if you like.

[MOTIVE]
>You make it sound like this is a common attitude, Ken; I don't think it is.
>Like you say yourself, I believe a lot of people would have thoughts like
>this.
>
>I just don't think that it would accomplish much. If you and I are
thinking
>it, the people who would be really affected (the megas, the CC, Z-OG) are
>going to have thought of it, too, and will (IMHO) have a lot of contingency
>plans in place just in case any of this were to be implemented. I don't
>think just shooting down the Z-O station, emotionally satisfying as it
might
>be, will do much towards destabilizing the nuyen. Blowing up Z-O would
have
>to be just one very small part of a much larger operation that, again IMHO,
>couldn't escape notice as the thing started moving along.


True, but even as simply a statement of ability "If we can blow up Z-O we
can strike anything at anytime" it could have amazing effect. Imagine if
right now someone blew one of the shuttles out of orbit, can you imagine the
effect?

>> The government could weather anything the corps could throw at
>> them, especially if the target was Z-O and the corps suddenly find
>> themselves in a whole world of hurt.


Now we're getting into muddy water where canon SR contradicts itself. Many
would argue that the corps could walk all over any nation in SR.

>Which I don't think they would, but we'll accept that they would be for the
>sake of this discussion.
>
>> By major governments I mean the UCAS, CAS, JIS and Aztlan. The
>> NAN nations, the Tirs and the like do not qualify in my opinion.
>
>I think you're making a mistake there, at least in the case of a couple of
>the NAN states and Tir Tairngire, but that's a personal assessment based on
>nothing but my gut.


I could be wrong, it's personal opinion as I noted ;)

>Okay, I've not had a lot of sleep the past couple of days. Refresh my
>memory on some of the TLAs you're using.
>
>LEO == Low Earth Orbit
>GEO == Geosynchronous Earth Orbit
>HEO == High Earth Orbit
>
>Those I recognize and remember, even in my current addled state. What's
>OTV, again? How about a brief primer on a lot of the normal space-related
>TLAs, for the observers out there?


What is a TLA?

OTV=Orbital Transfer Vehicle (cargo haulers)
By assembly facilities I'm referring to the various orbital manufacturing
facilities, whether those are small workshacks (a few habitat and science
modules) or large stations (like Z-O). Theres a LOT of money riding on the
orbital stations and showing that they are vulnerable would not be a good
thing.

Ken
Message no. 4
From: NeoJudas neojudas@******************.com
Subject: Earth to Orbit Weaponry Take 2
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 18:22:35 -0500
From: "Ken Peters" <tzeentch666@*********.net>
Subject: Re: Earth to Orbit Weaponry Take 2


> > From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.net>

> [BYE BYE Z-O IN THE SKY]
> It would have an amazing impact. HEre you have the very symbol of the
> Corporate Court, an unassailable bastion of corporate power sitting there
in
> the sky mocking the nations on earth with its power. It's not the station
> itself that is important, it's what the station represents. Look at the
> various comments on DRF/DS whenever it comes up, pretty inflamed comments
> and it does not even exist in our world!
>
> It's like Fort Knox, theres no gold there but damn, look at all the
> Hollywood movies that say their is, its the image thats important.


Ah yes, Image ... a bent view of perception based upon a self-conceived
notion to perpetuate a self-induced position or choice of relevance....
yeah, neat.

> [MOVING ORBIT]

I snipped this entire section just because, IIRC, ZO is/was "Freedom" in the
books. It states in sections on Ares that when Ares took over NASA (we kept
the anacronym... New Ares Space Administration), they stabilized the orbit
and moved it up. It's in the books.

> [LEO]
> >Assuming that the thing is still in LEO; I honestly haven't done a lot of
> >research, so I can't say for certain if they left it there or not. My
gut
> >tells me that they didn't, but what the hell do I know? I'm a rank
amateur
> >in things like this, and I'm not a gearhead like you are.
>
> I certainly don't remember anything that suggested otherwise. And if LEO
it
> would be easily visible to the naked eye (light flares from the solar
panels
> etc). You could pick out some details using a telescope on the ground.

But, since it isn't likely to be in LEO any longer (see previous remark,
find information in Corporate Shadowfiles and Corporate Download), this
becomes much more difficult. Again, not impossible, but damn difficult.

> Locating the station is not rocket science, calculating its orbital path
may
> be a bit harder but if you've got a hard-on to blow the station up there
are
> a million ways to find it out.

And over 20 of them are free. I'm serious, there are satellite orbital
tracking programs out there now that are purchasable over the internet. If
you can get two-three vectors, I'm sure the rest those programs could handle
easily.

> [VISUAL LOCATION]
> >Not guaranteed, no, but I know for damn sure that if I was doing
something
> >like that, and I had the wherewithal (as Z-OG and the CC have), a
ruthenium
> >polymer skin and an assload of imaging scanners would be one of the major
> >investments I'd make against optical tracking.
>
> True, but damn that would be expensive for upkeep! You would be replacing
> stuff all the time. Not to mention it might very well be a safety risk for
> vessels attempting to find the station (unless you only need to ruthy the
> "bottom" of the station).

Actually, after we did some looking on the "Ruthenium" technology, we
discovered you could not use it in "Open Space". The exposure to the
radiation would absolutely screw with/burn out the electroreceptivity of the
polymer in almost no time flat. However, *older* methods of color
adaptation using photochemical responses would still work.

> >Will it protect me and my station against other means of tracking? No,
but
> >it would sure as hell make me feel better about some of the easier means
of
> >locking on to me.
>
> True, although in the larger scheme of things its of negligable use. I
could
> see them doing it though.
>
> Best bet for Z-O would be to move station operations (though its unlikely
> they could move the station) to GEO or an LaGrange point or something. If
> this happens in canon it should happen in Year of the Comet before they
> introduce tech that CAN be used by players to blow the station to trash.

LaGrange point is not an option due to accessibility. Beyond HEO, things
become way too difficult to obtain in quick succession, as required by
emergency meetings and the like that take place on the station.

> >> Nuclear Bursts
> >> The threat for this is negligable in Shadowrun.
> >
> >Negligible? How so? An alarming number of nations and corporations are
> >nuclear powers in SR, and some of them aren't all that stable to begin
> with.
>
> Detonating a nuke in orbit would have the impact of probably starting a
> world war. I don't see that as being a possibility in Shadowrun simply for
> story reasons. Of course I may be way out of line, especially since if it
> happened in canon they can simply write-out any annoying details (like
they
> did with the Cermak blast fnord).

Just for the record, they have a way to "overwrite" a lot of the effects
with regards to Cermak here Ken. However, I do agree that detonating a nuke
in orbit around the earth (or anywhere within the lunar orbiting path for
that matter) would probably start a conflict of immense proportions.
However, there *ARE* organizations in Shadowrun that would use such if it
suited their purposes and do have likely access to them already.

> An nuclear detonation in LEO would knock out an assload of nearby
> satellites,stations, and OTVs. The EMP pulse would likely cause massive
> damage in the region over which it was detonated.

The EMP pulse of even a high yield nuclear bomb that occurred OUTSIDE the
atmosphere of the planet would do neglible effects to anything planetside.
However, any nearby-proximal satellites to the thing would likely wreak
havoc ranging from circuitry burnout (not nice on those remote orbiting
maintenance systems) to static build-up along components (a ticking
time-bomb for any maintenance robot or astronaut that came along later) to
just general communication interference (any broadband services, but not
direct link stuff like Laser Link... though I think Microwave would be
interfered with... can't say more though).

> I have some info on nukes as ASATS I could post if you like.

Slightly off-topic, did anyone else notice the Pentagon test failure this
morning????? (Saturday)

> [MOTIVE]
> >You make it sound like this is a common attitude, Ken; I don't think it
is.
> >Like you say yourself, I believe a lot of people would have thoughts like
> >this.

thinking about it and the ability to act upon those thoughts are often
different things entirely.

> >I just don't think that it would accomplish much. If you and I are
> thinking
> >it, the people who would be really affected (the megas, the CC, Z-OG) are
> >going to have thought of it, too, and will (IMHO) have a lot of
contingency
> >plans in place just in case any of this were to be implemented. I don't
> >think just shooting down the Z-O station, emotionally satisfying as it
> might
> >be, will do much towards destabilizing the nuyen. Blowing up Z-O would
> have
> >to be just one very small part of a much larger operation that, again
IMHO,
> >couldn't escape notice as the thing started moving along.
>
> True, but even as simply a statement of ability "If we can blow up Z-O we
> can strike anything at anytime" it could have amazing effect. Imagine if
> right now someone blew one of the shuttles out of orbit, can you imagine
the
> effect?

Yes, and so can anyone else who reads this post....

> >> The government could weather anything the corps could throw at
> >> them, especially if the target was Z-O and the corps suddenly find
> >> themselves in a whole world of hurt.
>
> Now we're getting into muddy water where canon SR contradicts itself. Many
> would argue that the corps could walk all over any nation in SR.

And many would argue the reverse of course, you are correct. Personally, I
think it's become a No Win Scenario.

> >> By major governments I mean the UCAS, CAS, JIS and Aztlan. The
> >> NAN nations, the Tirs and the like do not qualify in my opinion.
> >
> >I think you're making a mistake there, at least in the case of a couple
of
> >the NAN states and Tir Tairngire, but that's a personal assessment based
on
> >nothing but my gut.
>
> I could be wrong, it's personal opinion as I noted ;)

Actually, the NAN and Tir nations (any of them) would likely just close up
their borders, go into isolationist syndrome, and that would be that. NAN
doesn't have much of a unifying force anymore beyond their own economic
stability (as per the now outdated material).

> What is a TLA?

I'm brainfried on this one myself.

> OTV=Orbital Transfer Vehicle (cargo haulers)
> By assembly facilities I'm referring to the various orbital manufacturing
> facilities, whether those are small workshacks (a few habitat and science
> modules) or large stations (like Z-O). Theres a LOT of money riding on the
> orbital stations and showing that they are vulnerable would not be a good
> thing.

Actually, the assembly facilities are probably upwards of being MUCH larger
in some regards than ZO, depending on what is in question. We've considered
that if NEA activity is going on, then orbital repair facilities for those
longer-range craft is likely included up there as well by now.

And actually, vulnerability from below is nothing compared to vulnerability
from above.... this is YOTC after all... ;-)

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
NeoJudas ("K" to Friends)
"Children of the Kernel: Reborn"
(neojudas@******************.com)
Hoosier Hacker House (http://www.hoosierhackerhouse.com/)
Message no. 5
From: Ken Peters tzeentch666@*********.net
Subject: Earth to Orbit Weaponry Take 2
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 17:02:37 -0700
From: NeoJudas <neojudas@******************.com>
>> [BYE BYE Z-O IN THE SKY]
>Ah yes, Image ... a bent view of perception based upon a self-conceived
>notion to perpetuate a self-induced position or choice of relevance....
>yeah, neat.


I never claimed I was not biased (specifically noted it in fact). Deal.

>> [MOVING ORBIT]
>
>I snipped this entire section just because, IIRC, ZO is/was "Freedom" in
the
>books. It states in sections on Ares that when Ares took over NASA (we
kept
>the anacronym... New Ares Space Administration), they stabilized the orbit
>and moved it up. It's in the books.


Moved it into an actual higher orbit (MEO, GEO, HEO?) or just a more stable
LEO orbit. The world may never know (until YotC maybe). Supposition is the
name of the game when dealing with space in Shadowrun.

[NUKES]
>Just for the record, they have a way to "overwrite" a lot of the effects
>with regards to Cermak here Ken. However, I do agree that detonating a
nuke
>in orbit around the earth (or anywhere within the lunar orbiting path for
>that matter) would probably start a conflict of immense proportions.
>However, there *ARE* organizations in Shadowrun that would use such if it
>suited their purposes and do have likely access to them already.


With Cermak they had the excuse of magic to explain away any wierd effects
(or the lack of them). In space they don't quite have that luxury.

[EMP]
>The EMP pulse of even a high yield nuclear bomb that occurred OUTSIDE the
>atmosphere of the planet would do neglible effects to anything planetside.

Not exactly. A nuke exploded in space would have much more of its energy
released as EMP. Nuke explosions in LEO were considered one of the major
events before a full-on nuke strike by the (former) Soviet Union since it
would shut down a good portion of the hemisphere over which they were
detonated.

I'm not sure where you are getting the "negligable" effects from since its
totally incorrect. Here are some links:
http://www.house.gov/smbiz/hearings/106th/1999/990601/soper.htm
http://www.apogeonline.com/catalogo/allegati/483/doc/tempest/EMP02.HTM
http://www.blackmagic.com/ses/bruceg/EMC/EMP-Light.html

I'm not talking Hollywierd EMP effects of computers blowing up and radios
starting on fire but the effects would be substancial - especially in
Shadowrun. You don't think just because computers in SR use optical effects
they have no transister-based components? Yeah right.

>However, any nearby-proximal satellites to the thing would likely wreak
>havoc ranging from circuitry burnout (not nice on those remote orbiting
>maintenance systems) to static build-up along components (a ticking
>time-bomb for any maintenance robot or astronaut that came along later) to
>just general communication interference (any broadband services, but not
>direct link stuff like Laser Link... though I think Microwave would be
>interfered with... can't say more though).


Well since it would destroy the communications systems it would cause
significant disruptions. Bye-bye communications constellations. GPS would
also be scrambled for a time.

Ken
Message no. 6
From: Iridios iridios@********.net
Subject: Earth to Orbit Weaponry Take 2
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 22:30:57 -0400
NeoJudas wrote:

> > [LEO]

> But, since it isn't likely to be in LEO any longer (see previous remark,
> find information in Corporate Shadowfiles and Corporate Download), this
> becomes much more difficult. Again, not impossible, but damn difficult.

Actually, Corp. Shadowfiles states that the Z-O follows an equatorial
orbit around the Earth, and is in LEO. And Corp Download says it's
"just low enough for some yob with a surface-to-orbit missile to hit."


--
Iridios
--
Discordianism: Where reality is a figment of your imagination

Visit "The ShadowZone"
http://members.xoom.com/Iridios/ShadowZone

Sig by Kookie Jar 5.97d http://go.to/generalfrenetics/
10:25:35 PM/242:02:02 (1) [no thud]
Message no. 7
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Earth to Orbit Weaponry Take 2
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 15:29:27 -0500
From: Ken Peters
Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2000 2:08 PM

> [BYE BYE Z-O IN THE SKY]
>
> It would have an amazing impact. HEre you have the very symbol
> of the Corporate Court, an unassailable bastion of corporate
> power sitting there in the sky mocking the nations on earth with
> its power.

Okay, with you so far. We're both agreed that Z-O sits there in the sky,
hated by most everyone. I *still* think you're over-estimating the impact
blowing it up would serve.

But that could just be me.

> Look at the various comments on DRF/DS whenever it comes up, pretty
> inflamed comments and it does not even exist in our world!

Not enough hours in the day; I've got too much going on to hit all the
different SR message sites out there.

> Locating the station is not rocket science, calculating its
> orbital path may be a bit harder but if you've got a hard-on to
> blow the station up there are a million ways to find it out.

True enough. I still don't think it would have the kind of impact you want
to give it.

> [VISUAL LOCATION]
> >Not guaranteed, no, but I know for damn sure that if I was doing
> >something like that, and I had the wherewithal (as Z-OG and the CC
> >have), a ruthenium polymer skin and an assload of imaging scanners
> >would be one of the major investments I'd make against optical
> >tracking.
>
> True, but damn that would be expensive for upkeep! You would be
> replacing stuff all the time.

Possibly; I can see having to occasionally patch the skin from
micro-meteroids hits, and the scanners might need to be replaced on a
semi-frequent basis, but that would, IMHO, be one of the prices to be paid.

> Not to mention it might very well be a safety risk for
> vessels attempting to find the station (unless you only
> need to ruthy the "bottom" of the station).

You could, conceivably, turn off the ruthy around the docking arm if a
visual approach is needed, but I would think that instrument approach rules
would be fairly standard for those vessels approaching the station.

Truth be told, I doubt very seriously that ruthy is involved in the station,
but I do occasionally feel the need to be devil's advocate on things like
this.

> >> Nuclear Bursts
> >> The threat for this is negligable in Shadowrun.
> >
> >Negligible? How so? An alarming number of nations and corporations
> >are nuclear powers in SR, and some of them aren't all that stable to
> >begin with.
>
> Detonating a nuke in orbit would have the impact of probably starting
> a world war.

You're showing off all sorts of terrorist stuff, and you think they'd stop
before they got to the nuclear weapons? We both know that it's alarmingly
easy (in a relative fashion) for a terrorist group to acquire some form of
nuclear weapon, especially in SR, where proliferation has gone a bit awry.
If a group really doesn't give a fuck, as you postulate with some of the
terrorist groups you described, do you really think that they're not going
to use that kind of thing if they can get their hands on it?

> I don't see that as being a possibility in Shadowrun simply for
> story reasons. Of course I may be way out of line, especially
> since if it happened in canon they can simply write-out any
> annoying details (like they did with the Cermak blast fnord).

No magic in space, Ken. If they detonate a nuclear weapon in space,
there'll be no Cermak Blast.

> An nuclear detonation in LEO would knock out an assload of nearby
> satellites,stations, and OTVs. The EMP pulse would likely cause
> massive damage in the region over which it was detonated.

See above, re: terrorist groups.

> [MOTIVE]
> >I just don't think that it would accomplish much. If you and I
> >are thinking it, the people who would be really affected (the
> >megas, the CC, Z-OG) are going to have thought of it, too, and
> >will (IMHO) have a lot of contingency plans in place just in case
> >any of this were to be implemented. I don't think just shooting
> >down the Z-O station, emotionally satisfying as it mightbe, will
> >do much towards destabilizing the nuyen. Blowing up Z-O would
> >have to be just one very small part of a much larger operation
> >that, again IMHO, couldn't escape notice as the thing started
> >moving along.
>
> True, but even as simply a statement of ability "If we can blow up
> Z-O we can strike anything at anytime" it could have amazing effect.

I don't know that this would have much of an effect, though. The
unassailable has already been assaulted a time or two in SR (RA:S, the
assassination of Dunkelzahn). It would be sobering, true, and things would
be tense for a while as the contingency plans went into effect and the
successors to the CC assembled somewhere secret in order to begin operations
anew, but overall, I think more people know that things like this can happen
at any time than you seem to be giving credit for.

Maybe I'm just misreading things, because I'm still tired, but I just don't
see how it would be *that* big a deal as these things go. (On an absolute
scale, yeah, this is pretty big doings, but relatively speaking, a lot of
people would just shake their heads and go, "Okay, add another one to the
list, boys" and down another half-bottle of Maalox in the vain hope of
soothing their ulcers).

> >Imagine if right now someone blew one of the shuttles out of orbit,
> >can you imagine the effect?

See above.

This is also not necessarily the best example. My father used to be a
contractor for NASA, and he would frequently get me into the observation
gallery behind Mission Control in Houston/JSC during launches, because it's
the best view on Earth outside of Florida. I happened to be in the gallery
in '86 when Challenger exploded. I knew some of those people; I went to
high school with some of their children. I know how it would likely go
down. It would be seen as a tragedy, a lot of calls for the head of someone
(anyone) responsible would go out, but by and large people would go on with
their lives.

> >> The government could weather anything the corps could throw
> >> at them, especially if the target was Z-O and the corps suddenly
> >> find themselves in a whole world of hurt.
>
> Now we're getting into muddy water where canon SR contradicts itself.
> Many would argue that the corps could walk all over any nation in SR.

Ken, those are your own words you're arguing with there.... <g>

In any case, I don't think that the corps can walk all over any nation in
SR.

> >Okay, I've not had a lot of sleep the past couple of days. Refresh
> >my memory on some of the TLAs you're using.
> >
> >LEO == Low Earth Orbit
> >GEO == Geosynchronous Earth Orbit
> >HEO == High Earth Orbit
> >
> >Those I recognize and remember, even in my current addled state.
> >What's OTV, again? How about a brief primer on a lot of the normal
> >space-related TLAs, for the observers out there?
>
> What is a TLA?

Three-Letter Acronym.

> OTV=Orbital Transfer Vehicle (cargo haulers)

Ah. Gotcha. I might have figured it out eventually myself.

> By assembly facilities I'm referring to the various orbital
> manufacturing facilities, whether those are small workshacks (a
> few habitat and science modules) or large stations (like Z-O).
> Theres a LOT of money riding on the orbital stations and showing
> that they are vulnerable would not be a good thing.

You're making the assumption that the people putting them in orbit don't
already know the vulnerabilities, and have accepted that risk. I don't
think that, on that count, you're correct.

--
Patrick E. Goodman
remo@***.net
"I'm going to tell you something cool." -- Gene Wolfe
http://communities.msn.com/ShadowrunDataHaven/
Message no. 8
From: Ken Peters tzeentch666@*********.net
Subject: Earth to Orbit Weaponry Take 2
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 15:27:52 -0700
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.net>
>Okay, with you so far. We're both agreed that Z-O sits there in the sky,
>hated by most everyone. I *still* think you're over-estimating the impact
>blowing it up would serve.


That's probably very true. I'm somewhat overstating my case, not to mention
my feelings about the corps in SR somewhat color my perceptions on these
issues.

>But that could just be me.
>
>> Look at the various comments on DRF/DS whenever it comes up, pretty
>> inflamed comments and it does not even exist in our world!
>
>Not enough hours in the day; I've got too much going on to hit all the
>different SR message sites out there.


Well, one benefit of having no life is I can at least check out the more
interesting threads on DS and BD.

>You're showing off all sorts of terrorist stuff, and you think they'd stop
>before they got to the nuclear weapons? We both know that it's alarmingly
>easy (in a relative fashion) for a terrorist group to acquire some form of
>nuclear weapon, especially in SR, where proliferation has gone a bit awry.
>If a group really doesn't give a fuck, as you postulate with some of the
>terrorist groups you described, do you really think that they're not going
>to use that kind of thing if they can get their hands on it?


Negligable threat in Shadowrun. Especially since a) most nukes have been
magically disabled in the second Ghost Dance b) FASA seems leery about
having nukes go off c) A nuke explosion in space would have impact that
would probably not be in FASAs metaplot interest.

Doesn't have much to do with logic insofar as it goes. Not that I expect
terrorists to be using stolen ICBMs to launch nukes all that probably IRL
either.

>No magic in space, Ken. If they detonate a nuclear weapon in space,
>there'll be no Cermak Blast.


Well yeah, thats exactly the point I was making. Without magic to explain
away any bogosities I would assume FASA would take some care in how such an
event would effect things. With Cermak any annoying little details were just
swept under the magical rug.

>> Now we're getting into muddy water where canon SR contradicts itself.
>> Many would argue that the corps could walk all over any nation in SR.
>
>Ken, those are your own words you're arguing with there.... <g>


Well yeah, I never said I had to take one side or the other completely ;)~ I
can love panzers and still wonder how in the world the Banshee can go
supersonic.

>You're making the assumption that the people putting them in orbit don't
>already know the vulnerabilities, and have accepted that risk. I don't
>think that, on that count, you're correct.


And? The orbital defenses are very very hard to deploy. We're talking
defending against kinetic kill weapons with insane closing speeds, DEWs with
zero defense times, a difficult time hiding your facility, etc. Unless you
build the station in a planetoid or something its pretty easy
(comparitively) to lay the smackdown on something in orbit. Any orbital
conflict will be over very quickly and have a massive pricetag just from
destroyed (mission and hard kill) assets.

Ken
Message no. 9
From: Patrick Goodman pgoodman13@************.com
Subject: Earth to Orbit Weaponry Take 2
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 17:57:33 -0500
From: Ken Peters
Sent: Sunday, July 09, 2000 5:28 PM

> >> Look at the various comments on DRF/DS whenever it comes up,
> >> pretty inflamed comments and it does not even exist in our world!
> >
> >Not enough hours in the day; I've got too much going on to hit all
> >the different SR message sites out there.
>
> Well, one benefit of having no life is I can at least check out the
> more interesting threads on DS and BD.

You know, for a little while there, while this list was slow, you infected
me, at least temporarily. Fortunately, I think I recovered.

[Nukes in Space]

> Negligable threat in Shadowrun. Especially since a) most nukes have
> been magically disabled in the second Ghost Dance

I must have slept through part of the lecture. *Second* Ghost Dance? Care
to cite some sources for that? If its canon, I'm going to have to really
change my approach on a couple of things.

> b) FASA seems leery about having nukes go off

Well, yeah, it could really screw with the story.

> c) A nuke explosion in space would have impact that
> would probably not be in FASAs metaplot interest.

As you yourself noted.

Be advised: I go into this as a writer of fiction, not as a gearhead. I
think I've mentioned this before, but I feel the need to throw that caveat
out again, since it colors the way I approach this. You seem to be much
more interested in what would really happen in our world, as opposed to what
might happen in the fictional world. We both know that these are two
entirely different things.

> Doesn't have much to do with logic insofar as it goes. Not that I
> expect terrorists to be using stolen ICBMs to launch nukes all that
> probably IRL either.

Oh, I don't expect terrorists with ICBMs, either, but we both know that it's
possible for them to get the warhead/explosive capability. You probably
know more about this then I do.

> >Ken, those are your own words you're arguing with there.... <g>
>
> Well yeah, I never said I had to take one side or the other
> completely ;)~

You know what happens when you get two guys playing devil's advocate in the
same discussion, though, don't you? <g>

> I can love panzers and still wonder how in the world the Banshee can
> go supersonic.

Someone thought it was cool, and it was before some people we know got
involved and tried to make sense of it all. A lot of early SR stuff got
made on that basis ("it's cool") and that basis alone.

My thing at the moment, since I've got a sniper NPC, is trying to figure out
how a Walther MA-2100 is so much more expensive than a Barret Model 121.

Okay, before we go on, I need to go back and refresh my memory on just what
it was that we were talking about.

<rummage rummage rummage>

Ah, here we go. I'm adding this in from our last post so that those joining
the party late (like me, it appears) will be able to follow, since we
started having two different conversations.

> >> Theres a LOT of money riding on the orbital stations and showing
> >> that they are vulnerable would not be a good thing.
> >
> >You're making the assumption that the people putting them in orbit
> >don't already know the vulnerabilities, and have accepted that risk.
> >I don't think that, on that count, you're correct.
>
> And?

This is where things went astray. I'm not disagreeing with you that there's
a lot of money riding on orbital facilities. I'm not even disagreeing with
you that it would be a good thing to remind some of the people involved that
they're vulnerable.

What I'm disagreeing on, and what I've been disagreeing with in regards to a
lot of our views of corporate space, is how much impact it would have on the
society in SR. While I tend to agree that a demonstration of the ease of
knocking an orbital habitat down from the sky would be disastrous, you seem
to think that this would be some sort of revelation to the space programs of
the nations and corps out there, and I don't think it would be. Not a
revelation, at any rate. An unhappy reminder, yeah, but a revelation? No.

In the highly fractious world of SR, a company that didn't consider
terrorists (or even opposing corp interests) and their ability to destroy a
space-based target would be considered insane. They might not want to think
about it, but they know all about how hard they'd be hit if, say, Icarus was
knocked out of the sky. They know all about it...and they put it in orbit
anyway, because the returns outweigh the risks.

> Any orbital conflict will be over very quickly and have a massive
> pricetag just from destroyed (mission and hard kill) assets.

On this we're agreed. I just don't think it would be the revelation you
seem to think it would be.

--
Patrick E. Goodman
pgoodman13@************.com
"I'm going to tell you something cool." -- Gene Wolfe
http://communities.msn.com/ShadowrunDataHaven/
Message no. 10
From: Tzeentch tzeentch666@*********.net
Subject: Earth to Orbit Weaponry Take 2
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 16:00:43 -0700
From: "Patrick Goodman" <pgoodman13@************.com>
> You know, for a little while there, while this list was slow, you infected
> me, at least temporarily. Fortunately, I think I recovered.

Bah. You can never escape. If the gearhead posts don't getcha the X-Men and
church posts will.

> [Nukes in Space]
> > Negligable threat in Shadowrun. Especially since a) most nukes have
> > been magically disabled in the second Ghost Dance
>
> I must have slept through part of the lecture. *Second* Ghost Dance?
Care
> to cite some sources for that? If its canon, I'm going to have to really
> change my approach on a couple of things.

Secrets of Power trilogy.

> Be advised: I go into this as a writer of fiction, not as a gearhead. I
> think I've mentioned this before, but I feel the need to throw that caveat
> out again, since it colors the way I approach this. You seem to be much
> more interested in what would really happen in our world, as opposed to
what
> might happen in the fictional world. We both know that these are two
> entirely different things.

Well yeah. In the real world almost none of the events in the SR timeline
could have taken place.

> Oh, I don't expect terrorists with ICBMs, either, but we both know that
it's
> possible for them to get the warhead/explosive capability. You probably
> know more about this then I do.

<shrug> I read alot but I won't claim to be an font of information on it.

> What I'm disagreeing on, and what I've been disagreeing with in regards to
a
> lot of our views of corporate space, is how much impact it would have on
the
> society in SR. While I tend to agree that a demonstration of the ease of
> knocking an orbital habitat down from the sky would be disastrous, you
seem
> to think that this would be some sort of revelation to the space programs
of
> the nations and corps out there, and I don't think it would be. Not a
> revelation, at any rate. An unhappy reminder, yeah, but a revelation?
No.

Well AFAIK it would be the worst space disaster since the America spaceplane
crash. And if you believe the SR books and comments that was a SEVERE shock
to the US Space program (perhaps the reason they sold off NASA).

> In the highly fractious world of SR, a company that didn't consider
> terrorists (or even opposing corp interests) and their ability to destroy
a
> space-based target would be considered insane. They might not want to
think
> about it, but they know all about how hard they'd be hit if, say, Icarus
was
> knocked out of the sky. They know all about it...and they put it in orbit
> anyway, because the returns outweigh the risks.

Well trying to think logically about many things in Shadowrun will give you
an embolism.

> > Any orbital conflict will be over very quickly and have a massive
> > pricetag just from destroyed (mission and hard kill) assets.
>
> On this we're agreed. I just don't think it would be the revelation you
> seem to think it would be.

Oh YEAH! Well..uhh..yeah! :)~

ObNotOT: Heavy Metal 2000 sucks!

Ken
"I stand by all the misstatements that I've made."
-Dan Quayle

Further Reading

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