Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Eastwars (Was Eurowars)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 23:55:35 +0000
Geoff wrote:
> > > remind you that Japan and Russia has, technically, been at war the
> > > last 60 years?). China and Russia is playing friendly these days, but
> >
> > Russia and Japan are still at war? Can someone fill me in on this?
>
> Russia and Japan never signed a peace after WWII.... it's doubtful that anything
> will come of this any time soon, because one of the nations involved doens't have an
> army, and the other has a few too many internal problems to risk mindlessly
> attacking anyone. =)

I guess I should point out Japan's budget for their so called Self
Defence Force is roughly a third of USA's, and is far better
equipped than any of its neighbours. They've recently, especially
after the Peru affair last year, gotten more public support for a
harder line as well.

Shit I gotta look up that, except I mislaid the Balance
of Power report of -97. Well, it's in the vicinity of 90 billion
while USA's is in the vicinity of 250 billion, if my memory serves me
right... shit what's a billion anyway? 1000.000.000 I think in this
case. The last few years it has increased by 30% or so p.a.

Japan's fleet is currently *THE* most advanced in the world,
ship for ship - including the American navy. This sounds extreme, but
they have few, if any, old ships, unlike other navies.

While they're not gearing up to become a superpower just yet*, they
are well on their way. They are believed to be a (quiet) nuclear
power. The reason for their current gearing up is, supposedly,
because they do not trust in USA's protection anymore, and that China
is becoming a bigger threat and has a more aggressive stance.

Claiming Japan is unarmed.. no, I don't think so. The Japanese
empire of Shadowrun isn't *THAT* far fetched....

China and Japan is about evenly matched in capital ships, with China
slightly better numerically, and Japan vastly superior qualitatively,
leaving Japan well ahead in fleet strength. On the other hand, China
is safe, because they have a vast fleet of missile boats. They are
not blue-sea capable, though, and so is only a defensive force.
China recently purchased two Sovremenny class destroyers, which is
considered capable ships, and is probably the best in their
fleet. As for Russia, their fleet is still formiddable, but Japan is
quite safe from attack, not the least because of USA and that Russia
has enough problems with internal stability. (Not that *that* ever
stopped anyone from going to war.. rather the opposite.).

* Arguable!

--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 2
From: Geoff Morochnick <bodiam@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Eastwars (Was Eurowars)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 20:36:46 -0400
Fade wrote:

> Geoff wrote:
> > > > remind you that Japan and Russia has, technically, been at war the
> > > > last 60 years?). China and Russia is playing friendly these days, but
> > >
> > > Russia and Japan are still at war? Can someone fill me in on this?
> >
> > Russia and Japan never signed a peace after WWII.... it's doubtful that anything
> > will come of this any time soon, because one of the nations involved doens't
have an
> > army, and the other has a few too many internal problems to risk mindlessly
> > attacking anyone. =)
>
> I guess I should point out Japan's budget for their so called Self
> Defence Force is roughly a third of USA's, and is far better
> equipped than any of its neighbours. They've recently, especially
> after the Peru affair last year, gotten more public support for a
> harder line as well.
>
> Shit I gotta look up that, except I mislaid the Balance
> of Power report of -97. Well, it's in the vicinity of 90 billion
> while USA's is in the vicinity of 250 billion, if my memory serves me
> right... shit what's a billion anyway? 1000.000.000 I think in this
> case. The last few years it has increased by 30% or so p.a.
>
> Japan's fleet is currently *THE* most advanced in the world,
> ship for ship - including the American navy. This sounds extreme, but
> they have few, if any, old ships, unlike other navies.
>
> While they're not gearing up to become a superpower just yet*, they
> are well on their way. They are believed to be a (quiet) nuclear
> power. The reason for their current gearing up is, supposedly,
> because they do not trust in USA's protection anymore, and that China
> is becoming a bigger threat and has a more aggressive stance.
>
> Claiming Japan is unarmed.. no, I don't think so. The Japanese
> empire of Shadowrun isn't *THAT* far fetched....
>
> China and Japan is about evenly matched in capital ships, with China
> slightly better numerically, and Japan vastly superior qualitatively,
> leaving Japan well ahead in fleet strength. On the other hand, China
> is safe, because they have a vast fleet of missile boats. They are
> not blue-sea capable, though, and so is only a defensive force.
> China recently purchased two Sovremenny class destroyers, which is
> considered capable ships, and is probably the best in their
> fleet. As for Russia, their fleet is still formiddable, but Japan is
> quite safe from attack, not the least because of USA and that Russia
> has enough problems with internal stability. (Not that *that* ever
> stopped anyone from going to war.. rather the opposite.).
>
> * Arguable!
>
> --
> Fade

I suppose this is what I get from speaking without checking the facts to back me.... I bow
to superior statistics. :)

Whatever the case, i doubt that Russia wants to pick a fight with a nation like Japan, not
only because of the reasons you list, but also because most industrialized nations have
Japanese trade interests. A Russo-Chinese war is more likely, but that might spell the end
of life as we know it in the eastern hemisphere, so hopefully Russia will keep to border
fights with Afghanistan and trying to get a working goverment.
--
Stonebow
The life of man: solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.
Thomas Hobbes
bodiam@**********.com
http://www.geocities.com/area51/corridor/8427
Message no. 3
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: Eastwars (Was Eurowars)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 10:50:10 -0400
Fade wrote:
>> > Russia and Japan are still at war? Can someone fill me in on this?
>>
>> Russia and Japan never signed a peace after WWII.... it's doubtful that
>>anything
>> will come of this any time soon, because one of the nations involved
>>doens't have an
>> army, and the other has a few too many internal problems to risk mindlessly
>> attacking anyone. =)
>
>I guess I should point out Japan's budget for their so called Self
>Defence Force is roughly a third of USA's, and is far better
>equipped than any of its neighbours. They've recently, especially
>after the Peru affair last year, gotten more public support for a
>harder line as well.

>Shit I gotta look up that, except I mislaid the Balance
>of Power report of -97. Well, it's in the vicinity of 90 billion
>while USA's is in the vicinity of 250 billion, if my memory serves me
>right... shit what's a billion anyway? 1000.000.000 I think in this
>case. The last few years it has increased by 30% or so p.a.

I believe that Japan is constitutionally limited to spending no more
than 3% of their GNP on the SDF, so that's what they spend.

Let's see... In 1994, their GNP was 4.7 million million (to avoid
these silly "billion" threads let's say 4.7x10^12) US dollars.
http://www.jinjapan.org/stat/data/05ECN21.html and
http://www.atlapedia.com/online/countries/japan.htm

3% of that is 0.14x10^12 = 140 (US billion) (US dollars).

Japan produces 15%! of the world GNP
http://www.nbr.org/pub/analysis/vol5no4doc.html

James Ojaste
>

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Eastwars (Was Eurowars), you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.