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Message no. 1
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 18:05:23 GMT
Whilst we're on the subject;

Do all you GMs out there follow edges and flaws by the letter? For example,
Sea Madness is worth -4 points in Cyberpirates, yet in a campaign played out
in the middle of Australia with a group of runners who don't know what water
looks like that is going to have no effect. Equally, I have a distinct
memory of sitting there watching an adept character who would never get
cybered taking simsense vertigo, bio rejection and loads of other flaws
because it gives him more points.

To knitpick, it says that elves will look down on elf posers, does that mean
that all elves are legally obliged to spit on elf posers or is there some
choice in the matter?

Phil
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Message no. 2
From: Adam J adamj@*********.html.com
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 12:07:38 -0600
At 18:05 5/15/00 +0000, Phil Smith wrote:

>Do all you GMs out there follow edges and flaws by the letter? For example,
>Sea Madness is worth -4 points in Cyberpirates, yet in a campaign played out
>in the middle of Australia with a group of runners who don't know what water
>looks like that is going to have no effect. Equally, I have a distinct
>memory of sitting there watching an adept character who would never get
>cybered taking simsense vertigo, bio rejection and loads of other flaws
>because it gives him more points.

If the flaw isn't going to reasonably affect a player, I wouldn't allow
them to take it at all. It's not a flaw if it just sits on the character sheet.

Adam
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Message no. 3
From: Augustus shadowrun@*********.net
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 11:45:55 -0700
----- Original Message -----
From: Phil Smith <phil_urbanhell@*******.com>


> Whilst we're on the subject;
>
> Do all you GMs out there follow edges and flaws by the letter? For
example,
> Sea Madness is worth -4 points in Cyberpirates, yet in a campaign played
out
> in the middle of Australia with a group of runners who don't know what
water
> looks like that is going to have no effect. Equally, I have a distinct
> memory of sitting there watching an adept character who would never get
> cybered taking simsense vertigo, bio rejection and loads of other flaws
> because it gives him more points.
>
> To knitpick, it says that elves will look down on elf posers, does that
mean
> that all elves are legally obliged to spit on elf posers or is there some
> choice in the matter?

I don't have my copy of The Companion handy... but I think it suggests in
there that you adjust the point values based on your own specific campaign.

A GM should have common sense enough to say that Sea Madness is worth less
points than listed in Cyberpirates (afterall, Cyberpirates "assumes" you are
going to play a cyberpirate campaign).

This is covered because some of the flaws are made specifically for other
character types (ie: mages have a few flaws and edges that only they should
take)

As for the adept... things like Bio-Rejection isn't necessarily a "freebie"
flaw... it prevents the PC from ever adding cyberware to enhance himself
(ie: a human adept might think of spending 1 point of essence and taking
Smartlink, Cybereyes, maybe even some bioware...)

But also, Bio-Rejection can come into play if the rest of the party is on a
run and say the adept lost a limb... can take 6-8 weeks to grow a new limb,
then another 3-4 weeks to recover from the wound... effectivly taking him
out of the campaign if the rest of the group is on a strict time schedule...
something that maybe taking a cyberlimb would quickly fix.

As for the nitpicking and the elves... thats pretty much a common sense
thing... your GM (or you can if you are the GM) can pretty much use
stereotypes of all races and their reactions... or you can do whatever you
want.

Some elves will laugh at a human trying to be an elf... thinking he is just
a goofy poser lacking an identity.
Some elves will be offended at a human trying to be an elf... taking it as a
racial insult.
Some elves will look down at a human trying to be an elf... thinking "there
is a pathetic human trying to be like us"
Some elves will be flattered at a human trying to be an elf... taking it as
a compliment that a human sees elves as "the best there is to be"

Alot of what you listed might come into effect with an inexperienced GM, but
most GMs I know would usually nip it in the bud and set the PC on the
straight and narrow.

Auggie
Message no. 4
From: GuayII@***.com GuayII@***.com
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 15:11:50 EDT
In a message dated 5/15/00 11:11:21 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
adamj@*********.html.com writes:

> At 18:05 5/15/00 +0000, Phil Smith wrote:
>
> >Do all you GMs out there follow edges and flaws by the letter? For
> example,
> >Sea Madness is worth -4 points in Cyberpirates, yet in a campaign played
> out
> >in the middle of Australia with a group of runners who don't know what
> water
> >looks like that is going to have no effect. Equally, I have a distinct
> >memory of sitting there watching an adept character who would never get
> >cybered taking simsense vertigo, bio rejection and loads of other flaws
> >because it gives him more points.
>
> If the flaw isn't going to reasonably affect a player, I wouldn't allow
> them to take it at all. It's not a flaw if it just sits on the character
> sheet.

Even if your campaign takes place in Seattle? (which was one player's
reasoning for taking it)

Cash
Message no. 5
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 19:17:22 GMT
>From: "Augustus" <shadowrun@*********.net>
>I don't have my copy of The Companion handy... but I think it suggests in
>there that you adjust the point values based on your own specific campaign.
>
>A GM should have common sense enough to say that Sea Madness is worth less
>points than listed in Cyberpirates (afterall, Cyberpirates "assumes" you
>are
>going to play a cyberpirate campaign).

One thing a GM I once played under in a cop campaign made us all do was
justify all the equipment we wanted over standard issue by roleplaying it
with their commanding officer; stuff like that stops players from just
churning out a character without really thinking about it; "well everyone
has a smartlink so..."

>This is covered because some of the flaws are made specifically for other
>character types (ie: mages have a few flaws and edges that only they should
>take)
>
>As for the adept... things like Bio-Rejection isn't necessarily a "freebie"
>flaw... it prevents the PC from ever adding cyberware to enhance himself
>(ie: a human adept might think of spending 1 point of essence and taking
>Smartlink, Cybereyes, maybe even some bioware...)
>
>But also, Bio-Rejection can come into play if the rest of the party is on a
>run and say the adept lost a limb... can take 6-8 weeks to grow a new limb,
>then another 3-4 weeks to recover from the wound... effectivly taking him
>out of the campaign if the rest of the group is on a strict time
>schedule...
>something that maybe taking a cyberlimb would quickly fix.

Actually the GM did interviene and made him take sensitive system instead.
Then when I took over I blew one of his arms off and the others kitted him
out with a cyberarm before he even woke up. I still can't work out how to
get him to regret simsense vertigo though.

>Alot of what you listed might come into effect with an inexperienced GM,
>but
>most GMs I know would usually nip it in the bud and set the PC on the
>straight and narrow.

Or punish them for trying to get more BPs. I normally allow players to
create their characters before games because I'm too lazy to talk them
through it. I just ask to see the character sheet before hand and make them
change anything I don't like. I imagine that if I could ne bothered I would
make them justify everything they do. This does lead to "you have a
programme that does what!?" situations.

Phil
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Message no. 6
From: Raveness Ravensbane ravenessravensbane@*****.com
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 12:24:52 -0700 (PDT)
<snip>
> > If the flaw isn't going to reasonably affect a
> player, I wouldn't allow
> > them to take it at all. It's not a flaw if it
> just sits on the character
> > sheet.
>
> Even if your campaign takes place in Seattle? (which
> was one player's
> reasoning for taking it)
>
> Cash

We have a few people who've GMed Shadowrun. Usually
they just have to go "What flaw are you taking?" They
look at the sheet, pause thoughtfully then hide back
behind the gm screen scribbling profusely and
chuckling to themselves possibly throwing in a "Mu ha
ha ha!" and a "Man I'm feeling Evil tonight! This is
going to be great! Well, maybe not for you..."

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Message no. 7
From: Adam J adamj@*********.html.com
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 13:39:16 -0600
At 15:11 5/15/00 -0400, GuayII@***.com wrote:

>> If the flaw isn't going to reasonably affect a player, I wouldn't allow
>> them to take it at all. It's not a flaw if it just sits on the character
>> sheet.
>
>Even if your campaign takes place in Seattle? (which was one player's
>reasoning for taking it)

In the case of Sea Madness and a character in Seattle, no, not unless they
spend their time smuggling stuff via boat down to CFS or something like that.

Adam
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Message no. 8
From: GuayII@***.com GuayII@***.com
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 15:48:22 EDT
In a message dated 5/15/00 12:43:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
adamj@*********.html.com writes:

> At 15:11 5/15/00 -0400, GuayII@***.com wrote:
>
> >Even if your campaign takes place in Seattle? (which was one player's
> >reasoning for taking it)
>
> In the case of Sea Madness and a character in Seattle, no, not unless they
> spend their time smuggling stuff via boat down to CFS or something like
that.
>
> Adam

Heh-heh. I tried to explain that to him, but It's hard to be the sole voice
of reason in my group sometimes.

Cash
Message no. 9
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 20:07:40 GMT
How about personality flaws? Ones like bragart sound really good in theory
but I could not visualise a time in a game when I could enforce it. The
player would brag because thats in character but I would never make them
take a willpower test to stop doing so.

I have the same problem with disadvantages for shamen; I play a dog shaman
in one of our minor campaigns and we just ignore the stuborness idea; it
just would not work and besides which, dogs are dizzy more often than they
are stuborn.

Phil
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Message no. 10
From: Augustus shadowrun@*********.net
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 13:14:08 -0700
----- Original Message -----
From: Raveness Ravensbane <ravenessravensbane@*****.com>
>
> We have a few people who've GMed Shadowrun. Usually
> they just have to go "What flaw are you taking?" They
> look at the sheet, pause thoughtfully then hide back
> behind the gm screen scribbling profusely and
> chuckling to themselves possibly throwing in a "Mu ha
> ha ha!" and a "Man I'm feeling Evil tonight! This is
> going to be great! Well, maybe not for you..."
>

I'm from this sorta school of GMing... if the PCs take a flaw, edge, contact
or allergy... I try to have it come up sometime during the game... No... I'm
not talking about having stuff like this come up every game session... but
if a PC of mine took Sea Madness (going with the original example) I'd try
to work it eventually into the game so that it comes up atleast once or
twice (especially if I let it stand as a -4 flaw)

Tailoring the adventures to fit the PCs seems to always leave my players
with a better feel for the game and that they are actually somebody out
there rather than just generic runners getting into all kids of whacky
hijinks.

Aug
Message no. 11
From: Raveness Ravensbane ravenessravensbane@*****.com
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 13:21:54 -0700 (PDT)
--- Augustus <shadowrun@*********.net> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Raveness Ravensbane
> <ravenessravensbane@*****.com>
> >
> > We have a few people who've GMed Shadowrun.
> Usually
> > they just have to go "What flaw are you taking?"
> They
> > look at the sheet, pause thoughtfully then hide
> back
> > behind the gm screen scribbling profusely and
> > chuckling to themselves possibly throwing in a "Mu
> ha
> > ha ha!" and a "Man I'm feeling Evil tonight! This
> is
> > going to be great! Well, maybe not for you..."
> >
>
> I'm from this sorta school of GMing... if the PCs
> take a flaw, edge, contact
> or allergy... I try to have it come up sometime
> during the game... No... I'm
> not talking about having stuff like this come up
> every game session... but
> if a PC of mine took Sea Madness (going with the
> original example) I'd try
> to work it eventually into the game so that it comes
> up atleast once or
> twice (especially if I let it stand as a -4 flaw)
>
> Tailoring the adventures to fit the PCs seems to
> always leave my players
> with a better feel for the game and that they are
> actually somebody out
> there rather than just generic runners getting into
> all kids of whacky
> hijinks.
>
> Aug

I agree, I had a PC in a game with a dependant son
that she had her sister looking after and it never
came up, it was kind of dissapointing. Even if the GM
would have said, "You just get done with your call to
your fixer who needs to meet in 2 hours for the big
payoff or he'll dock you, you don't have a lot of
nuyen and there is a message on your pocket secretary,
it's your sister, Johnny has a bad cold and wants his
mommy. He's got a really high temp. What do you do?"
Something like that...or even on a headware phone in
the middle of the run. "Mommy, I just called to tell
you I love you. When are you coming home?"

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Message no. 12
From: Augustus shadowrun@*********.net
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 13:24:13 -0700
----- Original Message -----
From: Adam J <adamj@*********.html.com>
> >
> >Even if your campaign takes place in Seattle? (which was one player's
> >reasoning for taking it)
>
> In the case of Sea Madness and a character in Seattle, no, not unless they
> spend their time smuggling stuff via boat down to CFS or something like
that.

I could still maybe see Sea Madness as a -2 flaw or so in a Seattle based
campaign, since its a port city... from run ideas like:

-PCs to intercept a shipment of goods
-PCs to sneak somebody/something into/out of the Tir, and by sea is the most
available route
-PCs hired on as guards to protect a smuggling operation
-PCs hired to explore or spy on an offshore/underwater platform off the
coast.
-A contact needs PCs to check out something in another city/continent and
the best available transportation their fixer can set up is by boat (or
maybe by helicopter to start, but they end up touching down on a boat to
make the rest of the trip)
-Group of smugglers or pirates is working around the port, mostly stealing
from pleasure craft, a PC contact is on one such boat and hires the PCs to
investigate the incident.
-PCs invited to schmooze a high profile contact... out and about on his
yacht for a nice dinner and tour of the city by night... when assassins
strike...

Thats about all I can come up with off the top of my head without spending
alot of time on it... but just wanna say there is situations where this flaw
can come into play even if its not a cyberpirate campaign.

Augusuts
augustus@
attcanada.net
Icq me at: 44571096
Message no. 13
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 16:05:57 -0500
On Mon, 15 May 2000 19:17:22 GMT "Phil Smith"
<phil_urbanhell@*******.com> writes:
<SNIP>
> Actually the GM did interviene and made him take sensitive system
> instead.
> Then when I took over I blew one of his arms off and the others
> kitted him
> out with a cyberarm before he even woke up. I still can't work out
> how to
> get him to regret simsense vertigo though.
<SNIP>

If gets caught, what about having a corp implant him with a a tranceiver
routed to a dedicated chipjack with an implant p-fix chip. Anytime the
corp remotely activates the p-fix chip, the simsense vertigo takes
effect. :)

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

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Message no. 14
From: Augustus shadowrun@*********.net
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 13:50:26 -0700
----- Original Message -----
From: Phil Smith <phil_urbanhell@*******.com>


> How about personality flaws? Ones like bragart sound really good in
theory
> but I could not visualise a time in a game when I could enforce it. The
> player would brag because thats in character but I would never make them
> take a willpower test to stop doing so.
>
> I have the same problem with disadvantages for shamen; I play a dog shaman
> in one of our minor campaigns and we just ignore the stuborness idea; it
> just would not work and besides which, dogs are dizzy more often than they
> are stuborn.

I could see bragging being a problem if you really roleplay out the PC
conversations with NPCs... in the olden days, my group didn't do this too
much... was usually "you sit down and meet with the johnson... this is the
run... this is the pay... give him a call when you are done..."

But then as time went on, and new groups were formed, the PCs got into
actually roleplaying stuff... having relationships... meeting up with
contacts and finding out whats going on in their lives.

we regress once in awhile... usually when time is tight and the PCs want to
get going on the runs... (we used to roleplay alot less when the game
sessions were 3-4 hours long... now we run them around 7-9 hours long and
that gives more time to do a run and still roleplay)

Aug
augustus@
attcanada.net
Icq: 44571096
Message no. 15
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 14:56:25 -0500
:Do all you GMs out there follow edges and flaws by the letter? For
example,
:Sea Madness is worth -4 points in Cyberpirates, yet in a campaign played
out
:in the middle of Australia with a group of runners who don't know what
water
:looks like that is going to have no effect.

It says right at the end of the flaw text that it should only be taken
by characters who spend time on the water, and is not allowed in other
cases.

:Equally, I have a distinct
:memory of sitting there watching an adept character who would never get
:cybered taking simsense vertigo, bio rejection and loads of other flaws
:because it gives him more points.

Simsense vertigo seems made primarily with such characters in mind, and
has a lesser value for them- I doubt a serious decker or rigger is gonna
take tha flaw, even at 4 points! Bio rejection is similar- its worth fewer
points for magical characters (adepts included). I don't know what the
"loads" of other flaws were, but those seem valid. Most GM's do limit the
number and / or values of edges and flaws characters may have, though, so
"loads" of flaws is probably to many. In fact, after a bit of
experiementaion, we only allowed 1 of each, which means that people
sometimes actually take the high value flaws- otherwise, why not take a pile
of small ones?

:To knitpick, it says that elves will look down on elf posers, does that
mean
:that all elves are legally obliged to spit on elf posers or is there some
:choice in the matter?
:
:Phil

There's probably some choice, but I think they would generally choose to
despise and avoid the person. Hostility isn't just reflected in outright
displaye of hatered, but they are going to have an uphill fight when the
flaw is in effect. That hostile atitude MIGHT eventually fade with regards
to specific individuals if the person did a good job of trying to molify the
hostility.
Note that being an "elf poser" is not just dressing like an elf as part
of a diguise- its pretending you are something you in reality are not,
generally without having suffered any of the actual drawbacks of being that
way. IMO, it is not a flaw that is sutable for an otherwise well adjusted,
competant, and self secure character. I'd not want to spend time with such
a person in any case, and I'm a "normal" person, so I think an elf would be
REALLY hostile.

Mongoose

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Message no. 16
From: Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 12:53:53 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Phil Smith <phil_urbanhell@*******.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 6:07 AM
Subject: Re: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)


>>
>I have the same problem with disadvantages for shamen; I play a dog shaman
>in one of our minor campaigns and we just ignore the stuborness idea; it
>just would not work and besides which, dogs are dizzy more often than they
>are stuborn.
>
>Phil


I have the same problem with them, but I still enforce the disadvantages
because I see it as the attributes of the archetypical Dog spirit that any
old dog. Some dogs, especially terriers, can be extremely single minded and
stubborn, and it is near impossible to stop a bull terrier from fighting.
As for the loyalty nomatter what, my dog boy is married and so will not
consider cheating on her (our regular GM is a bit of a pervert, likes to
enforce sex upon characters). The problem is, dogs are notorious for
screwing around, including with human legs if your sweat smells right. This
gets us into arguments regularly, but so far he's stayed faithful.
Message no. 17
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 11:29:49 +0200
According to Phil Smith, at 18:05 on 15 May 00, the word on the street
was...

> To knitpick, it says that elves will look down on elf posers, does that mean
> that all elves are legally obliged to spit on elf posers or is there some
> choice in the matter?

IMHO it means that _most_ elves will look down on elf posers, but they
don't have to if they don't want to :) Statements like the one you refer
to remind me far too much of typical fantasy games where everyone is
supposed to act according to some racial parameters, somehting I don't
like at all...

--
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But it's obviously a dream, as I'm waiting for that beam...
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-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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Message no. 18
From: Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 20:00:16 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Gurth <gurth@******.nl>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 7:27 PM
Subject: Re: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)


According to Phil Smith, at 18:05 on 15 May 00, the word on the street
was...

>> To knitpick, it says that elves will look down on elf posers, does that
mean
>> that all elves are legally obliged to spit on elf posers or is there some
>> choice in the matter?

>IMHO it means that _most_ elves will look down on elf posers, but they
>don't have to if they don't want to :) Statements like the one you refer
>to remind me far too much of typical fantasy games where everyone is
>supposed to act according to some racial parameters, somehting I don't
>like at all...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html


Case in point: That Offspring song 'Pretty Fly (for a white guy)' Thats
exactly how a lot of elves would see elf posers, I reckon.
Message no. 19
From: Raveness Ravensbane ravenessravensbane@*****.com
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 06:11:30 -0700 (PDT)
<snip>
> :To knitpick, it says that elves will look down on
> elf posers, does that
> mean
> :that all elves are legally obliged to spit on elf
> posers or is there some
> :choice in the matter?
> :
> :Phil
>
> There's probably some choice, but I think they
> would generally choose to
> despise and avoid the person. Hostility isn't just
> reflected in outright
> displaye of hatered, but they are going to have an
> uphill fight when the
> flaw is in effect. That hostile atitude MIGHT
> eventually fade with regards
> to specific individuals if the person did a good job
> of trying to molify the
> hostility.
> Note that being an "elf poser" is not just
> dressing like an elf as part
> of a diguise- its pretending you are something you
> in reality are not,
> generally without having suffered any of the actual
> drawbacks of being that
> way. IMO, it is not a flaw that is sutable for an
> otherwise well adjusted,
> competant, and self secure character. I'd not want
> to spend time with such
> a person in any case, and I'm a "normal" person, so
> I think an elf would be
> REALLY hostile.
>
> Mongoose

I think it could be kinda like a cross
dresser...instead of a man dressing like a woman
(because everyone knows it's socially acceptable for
women to dress like men) a person trying to dress like
an elf. It makes me think of the first time my dad was
flipping through the channels and saw RuPaul and said
"She's got a nice set of legs" and I told him "Yeah
dad, HE does." Dad just shuddered and flipped the
channel quickly then just kept going "Ewww". Imagine
an elf purist seeing an elf poser and saying to an elf
buddy "Nice ears on that one" and the buddy going
"Yeah, that doc does nice work" and the elf
shuddering.


====~Raveness

http://www.sova.net/trish/roleplaying/shadowrun/pocketsecretary/

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Message no. 20
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 12:10:53 -0500
<discussing elf posser flaw>
:> IMO, it is not a flaw that is sutable for an
:> otherwise well adjusted,
:> competant, and self secure character. I'd not want
:> to spend time with such
:> a person in any case, and I'm a "normal" person, so
:> I think an elf would be
:> REALLY hostile.
:>
:> Mongoose
:
:I think it could be kinda like a cross
:dresser...instead of a man dressing like a woman
:(because everyone knows it's socially acceptable for
:women to dress like men) a person trying to dress like
:an elf.

Except that cross dressing rarely (that I know of) offends women, except
when the guy is a jerk, or happens to be the womans husband. Outside of
personal relationship issues, hostility towards crossdressers is based on
bigotry, at the root of which is personal insecurity and a need to conform
to social mores.
A man hating a crossdresser is more like a human hating an elf poser-
which is likely to happen, if that human is racist, just as its likely that
a homophobe would hate a crossdresser (despite that corssdresser's actual
sexul preference).

I intentionally avoided drawing parallels with elf posers because thier
really isn't any acurate one, but I suppose the closest I can think of would
be somebody whose not native american (or some other opressed minority with
a very distinct cultural heratige), but really goes in bigtime "proving"
that they are, to an ostentatious level that even most folks of that group
do not bother with. {In fact, that would make a good flaw in Shadowrun,
although it dosn't seem that Pinkskins are quite as loathed as elf posers.}
And elf poser acts not only like an elf, but like a STEREOTYPE of an elf,
whcih I think is a large part of where the offense comes from.

:It makes me think of the first time my dad was
:flipping through the channels and saw RuPaul and said
:"She's got a nice set of legs" and I told him "Yeah
:dad, HE does." Dad just shuddered and flipped the
:channel quickly then just kept going "Ewww".

That's not hostility, though. That's nausea. ;-)

Mongoose

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Message no. 21
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 19:32:20 +0200
According to Simon and Fiona, at 20:00 on 16 May 00, the word on the
street was...

> Case in point: That Offspring song 'Pretty Fly (for a white guy)' Thats
> exactly how a lot of elves would see elf posers, I reckon.

I wouldn't use any song by The Offspring that came out after Ignition, or
maybe Smash, as an example of anything, but as this isn't a music list I
won't say more about my views on their more recent releases :)

Still, I understand what you mean. I guess an even better example is
transvestites -- how many people, who are not themselves transvestites (or
TV producers), take them seriously? The whole idea seems one of a gigantic
inferiority complex to me, and I guess most real elves would feel the same
way about elf-posers.

That said, in our group we've currently got one elf poser and one real elf
(a night one, actually) who pretends to have a lot more wealth than he
actually does. Both players are constantly on the lookout for any slip-up
the other makes about their respective secrets, which can be humorous from
time to time. Like when the elf poser got out his flashlight so he could
see in the dark, then remembered astral perception would work, too...

--
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But it's obviously a dream, as I'm waiting for that beam...
--Millencollin, "Vulcan Ears"
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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Message no. 22
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 17:32:16 GMT
>From: "Augustus" <shadowrun@*********.net>
>I could see bragging being a problem if you really roleplay out the PC
>conversations with NPCs... in the olden days, my group didn't do this too
>much... was usually "you sit down and meet with the johnson... this is the
>run... this is the pay... give him a call when you are done..."
>
>But then as time went on, and new groups were formed, the PCs got into
>actually roleplaying stuff... having relationships... meeting up with
>contacts and finding out whats going on in their lives.
>
>we regress once in awhile... usually when time is tight and the PCs want to
>get going on the runs... (we used to roleplay alot less when the game
>sessions were 3-4 hours long... now we run them around 7-9 hours long and
>that gives more time to do a run and still roleplay)

Oh I try to do this, except my players are either retarded when it comes to
roleplaying, love fighting far too much or have very little personality
outside of hunting down and killing people. So when I try to roleplay they
get bored and start talking about unconnected stuff. Its easier if we just
keep things going.

Actually, the above sounds quite insulting to my players, they are not all
roleplaying idiots. They just prefer fight scenes over talking to NPCs.

Phil
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Message no. 23
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 17:35:13 GMT
>From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.com>
> > Actually the GM did interviene and made him take sensitive system
> > instead.
> > Then when I took over I blew one of his arms off and the others
> > kitted him
> > out with a cyberarm before he even woke up. I still can't work out
> > how to
> > get him to regret simsense vertigo though.
><SNIP>
>
>If gets caught, what about having a corp implant him with a a tranceiver
>routed to a dedicated chipjack with an implant p-fix chip. Anytime the
>corp remotely activates the p-fix chip, the simsense vertigo takes
>effect. :)

Hmm, not bad. Except when I blew his arm off he started talking about
ritual suicide so I dred to think about what he would make of the above :)>

Phil
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Message no. 24
From: Augustus shadowrun@*********.net
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 10:43:28 -0700
----- Original Message -----
From: Phil Smith <phil_urbanhell@*******.com>
>
> Oh I try to do this, except my players are either retarded when it comes
to
> roleplaying, love fighting far too much or have very little personality
> outside of hunting down and killing people. So when I try to roleplay
they
> get bored and start talking about unconnected stuff. Its easier if we
just
> keep things going.
>

I had a player who was like this... except when we got into roleplaying...
he'd usually head off to the living room and lay down on the sofa and read
D&D novels or comics.

At first the group was abit uncertain about the whole roleplay thing... but
eventually they got into it (I think partly because we had been playing
Shadowrun for years together and had been in just about every type of combat
possible).

As for the reading guy... I had to eventually kick him out of the group...
leading to my second worst incident of having to boot out a player from the
group.

(at first he wasn't bad cuz he'd just read at the table when things went
"slow", eventually he progressed to the couch)

I think the biggest thing with roleplaying is... you have to keep everybody
involved... if 1 or 2 people in a group of 4 or 5 doesn't feel that
comfortable about doing the roleplay thing... they'll just sit back and let
the others talk... and in time grow bored with doing nothing and just
watching the rest of the group play... but if you balance out your time
allocation between players and make sure everybody participates, it usually
gets them going.

Mind you... I have no problem with doing combat intensive campaigns...
afterall... its a game and you play any game to have fun... so if you try to
force things on players that they just don't want... then they might not be
having fun... I'd rather sacrifice realism or roleplay for the good of the
Entertainment Value.

Aug
Message no. 25
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 17:49:35 GMT
>From: "Sebastian Wiers" <m0ng005e@*********.com>
>:Equally, I have a distinct
>:memory of sitting there watching an adept character who would never get
>:cybered taking simsense vertigo, bio rejection and loads of other flaws
>:because it gives him more points.
>
> Simsense vertigo seems made primarily with such characters in mind,
>and
>has a lesser value for them- I doubt a serious decker or rigger is gonna
>take tha flaw, even at 4 points! Bio rejection is similar- its worth fewer
>points for magical characters (adepts included).

What I'm complaining about is how it seems very convenient that a character
who will never get willingly get cybered has all these flaws that restrict
the use of cyberware.

>:To knitpick, it says that elves will look down on elf posers, does that
>mean
>:that all elves are legally obliged to spit on elf posers or is there some
>:choice in the matter?
>:
>:Phil
>

> Note that being an "elf poser" is not just dressing like an elf as
>part
>of a diguise- its pretending you are something you in reality are not,
>generally without having suffered any of the actual drawbacks of being that
>way. IMO, it is not a flaw that is sutable for an otherwise well adjusted,
>competant, and self secure character. I'd not want to spend time with such
>a person in any case, and I'm a "normal" person, so I think an elf would be
>REALLY hostile.

Actually I allowed one of the players I GM for to play a character who has
been surgcally altered to look like an elf because he used to live in an
"elf" district and he was finding it harder to get accepted by others
because of the relative roundness of his ears. The character is very
un-elfy in personality but he still looks like an elf and any elf who knew
he was a poser would spit on him. So I saw the flaw as justified.

Phil
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Message no. 26
From: Raveness Ravensbane ravenessravensbane@*****.com
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 11:54:12 -0700 (PDT)
--- Sebastian Wiers <m0ng005e@*********.com> wrote:
> <discussing elf posser flaw>
> :> IMO, it is not a flaw that is sutable for an
> :> otherwise well adjusted,
> :> competant, and self secure character. I'd not
> want
> :> to spend time with such
> :> a person in any case, and I'm a "normal" person,
> so
> :> I think an elf would be
> :> REALLY hostile.
> :>
> :> Mongoose
> :
> :I think it could be kinda like a cross
> :dresser...instead of a man dressing like a woman
> :(because everyone knows it's socially acceptable
> for
> :women to dress like men) a person trying to dress
> like
> :an elf.
>
> Except that cross dressing rarely (that I know
> of) offends women, except
> when the guy is a jerk, or happens to be the womans
> husband. Outside of
> personal relationship issues, hostility towards
> crossdressers is based on
> bigotry, at the root of which is personal insecurity
> and a need to conform
> to social mores.
> A man hating a crossdresser is more like a human
> hating an elf poser-
> which is likely to happen, if that human is racist,
> just as its likely that
> a homophobe would hate a crossdresser (despite that
> corssdresser's actual
> sexul preference).
>
> I intentionally avoided drawing parallels with
> elf posers because thier
> really isn't any acurate one, but I suppose the
> closest I can think of would
> be somebody whose not native american (or some other
> opressed minority with
> a very distinct cultural heratige), but really goes
> in bigtime "proving"
> that they are, to an ostentatious level that even
> most folks of that group
> do not bother with. {In fact, that would make a
> good flaw in Shadowrun,
> although it dosn't seem that Pinkskins are quite as
> loathed as elf posers.}
> And elf poser acts not only like an elf, but like a
> STEREOTYPE of an elf,
> whcih I think is a large part of where the offense
> comes from.
>
> :It makes me think of the first time my dad was
> :flipping through the channels and saw RuPaul and
> said
> :"She's got a nice set of legs" and I told him "Yeah
> :dad, HE does." Dad just shuddered and flipped the
> :channel quickly then just kept going "Ewww".
>
> That's not hostility, though. That's nausea. ;-)
>
> Mongoose

Yeah, but if the cross dresser or the elf poser would
go up to the guy or elf while they are under the
impression that they are what they are portraying
themselves as and they make a pass at the person, they
may get punched or worse.

====~Raveness

http://www.sova.net/trish/roleplaying/shadowrun/pocketsecretary/

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Message no. 27
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 19:17:00 GMT
>From: "Simon and Fiona" <sfuller@******.com.au>
>I have the same problem with them, but I still enforce the disadvantages
>because I see it as the attributes of the archetypical Dog spirit that any
>old dog. Some dogs, especially terriers, can be extremely single minded and
>stubborn, and it is near impossible to stop a bull terrier from fighting.
>As for the loyalty nomatter what, my dog boy is married and so will not
>consider cheating on her (our regular GM is a bit of a pervert, likes to
>enforce sex upon characters). The problem is, dogs are notorious for
>screwing around, including with human legs if your sweat smells right. This
>gets us into arguments regularly, but so far he's stayed faithful.

And come to think of it; a dog is just as good (if not better) at fighting
than it is at smelling, yet the spell bonuses are +2D6 dor detection spells.
Having said that; I could not satisfactoraly create the advantages and
disadvantages for dog shamen, every breed is pretty different.

The way I see it, totems are steriotypes of different animals. Any other
opinions out there?

Phil
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Message no. 28
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 14:41:56 -0500
On Tue, 16 May 2000 17:35:13 GMT "Phil Smith"
<phil_urbanhell@*******.com> writes:
<SNIP>
> Hmm, not bad. Except when I blew his arm off he started talking
> about
> ritual suicide so I dred to think about what he would make of the
> above :)>

You could just garnish his karma earnings to buy off the simsense vertigo
flaw :)

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

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Message no. 29
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 19:46:23 GMT
>From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
>IMHO it means that _most_ elves will look down on elf posers, but they
>don't have to if they don't want to :) Statements like the one you refer
>to remind me far too much of typical fantasy games where everyone is
>supposed to act according to some racial parameters, somehting I don't
>like at all...

See also Playing An Otaku from VR2. It does use "will probably" and
"chances are", but it basicly dictates to the otaku player what their
personality will be. I always liked the idea of an otaku who decks through
an empty deck case - they make it look like they are normal and their team
thinks they are a normal teenage decker.

Phil
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Message no. 30
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 20:01:20 GMT
>From: Raveness Ravensbane <ravenessravensbane@*****.com>
>I think it could be kinda like a cross
>dresser...instead of a man dressing like a woman
>(because everyone knows it's socially acceptable for
>women to dress like men) a person trying to dress like
>an elf. It makes me think of the first time my dad was
>flipping through the channels and saw RuPaul and said
>"She's got a nice set of legs" and I told him "Yeah
>dad, HE does." Dad just shuddered and flipped the
>channel quickly then just kept going "Ewww". Imagine
>an elf purist seeing an elf poser and saying to an elf
>buddy "Nice ears on that one" and the buddy going
>"Yeah, that doc does nice work" and the elf
>shuddering.

Any of you other guys remember their first comment when they saw Hanson? I
was ewwing for weeks.

I don't know if the reaction to posers would be as extreme as it is to cross
dressing men; with cross dressers guys feel kind of disgusted because often
they can look genuinely attractive and that makes us kind of sexually
freaked out. A lot of women who know cross dressers are completely fine
with it.

I think the majority of posers will have something mentally wrong with them
(some kind of eating disorder for example). In the book it says they try to
asociate with elves when ever they can. I equate that to obsessive fans and
the like; people who cut themselves up because Richey Edwards did.

Phil
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Message no. 31
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 20:43:17 GMT
>From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.com>
>You could just garnish his karma earnings to buy off the simsense vertigo
>flaw :)

You're joking yeah Al? I am still working on persuading this guy to spend
karma on knowledge skills! :)>

Phil
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Message no. 32
From: Jill jmenning@***********.com
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 18:28:32 -0500
>The way I see it, totems are steriotypes of different animals. Any other
>opinions out there?

I also think that what the totem is like is strongly influenced by the
original beliefs of the shaman. If the shaman was raised in a culture that
looks upon Raven as a guardian and a good omen, then that person would be
hard-pressed to accept the Raven described in the SR book (troublemaker,
thrives on chaos, sign of trouble, etc) Even if it is not a cultural
belief, if it is the way the person has always viewed the creature, for
whatever reason, the result would be the same. It may be necessary to
adjust the modifiers at character creation to account for that sort of
thing. So the modifiers for a dog shaman would be based upon what the
shaman thought dogs were like, stereotypically. If they were in contact
with household pets, mostly, then it would be the cheerful, loyal, playful,
protective sort of thing. If their only experience with dogs was watching
the strays that live in the streets, they'd probably see them as wary,
defensive, vicious fighters, and intent on dominance. Those choices are, of
course, between the player and the GM, but I think that the character's
perception of the totem is very important.

Jill
Message no. 33
From: Dan Grabon djmoose@******.kornet.net
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 09:24:27 +0900
On 5/17/00 5:01 AM, Phil Smith at phil_urbanhell@*******.com wrote:

> Any of you other guys remember their first comment when they saw Hanson? I
> was ewwing for weeks.

Conversation overheard in a club:

Big Jock #1: Hey, you know, the older chick in Hanson is pretty hot.
Big Jock #2: Dude... they're guys.
Big Jock #1: Oh. Ugh. ... Well, still...

(note: this is not meant to reflect on big jocks at all... that just
happened to be who they were :) )

---
Dan "Moose" Grabon - djmoose@******.kornet.net
I would sell my soul for Hello Kitty in a kimono.
--Spiff
Message no. 34
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 18:34:27 -0500
:>:Equally, I have a distinct
:>:memory of sitting there watching an adept character who would never get
:>:cybered taking simsense vertigo, bio rejection and loads of other flaws
:>:because it gives him more points.
:>
:> Simsense vertigo seems made primarily with such characters in mind,
:>and
:>has a lesser value for them- I doubt a serious decker or rigger is gonna
:>take tha flaw, even at 4 points! Bio rejection is similar- its worth
fewer
:>points for magical characters (adepts included).
:
:What I'm complaining about is how it seems very convenient that a character
:who will never get willingly get cybered has all these flaws that restrict
:the use of cyberware.

Well, it's 4 points worth of flaws. IMO, even for a magical character,
"will never willingly get cyberware and is screwed if he gets it
involuntarily" is a valid and fairly serious flaw. The GM can adjust a
flaws value, but in this case, the 4 points really isn't worth nitpicking
over.

:Actually I allowed one of the players I GM for to play a character who has
:been surgcally altered to look like an elf because he used to live in an
:"elf" district and he was finding it harder to get accepted by others
:because of the relative roundness of his ears. The character is very
:un-elfy in personality but he still looks like an elf and any elf who knew
:he was a poser would spit on him. So I saw the flaw as justified.
:
:Phil

I don't think that's an "elf poser". That's like somebody who happens
to have the human looking edge, only they happen to be elven looking. Of
course, if elves frequently respond negatively when they find this out, it
still qualifies as a flaw, I guess. Since its only 1 point, I guess it's
more a mattewr of whether the player wants to deal with the hassle than
anything else.

Mongoose

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Message no. 35
From: Hunter griffinhq@****.com
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 21:02:57 -0400
On Wed, 17 May 2000 09:24:27 +0900 Dan Grabon <djmoose@******.kornet.net>
writes:
> On 5/17/00 5:01 AM, Phil Smith at phil_urbanhell@*******.com wrote:
>
> Big Jock #1: Hey, you know, the older chick in Hanson is pretty
> hot.
> Big Jock #2: Dude... they're guys.
> Big Jock #1: Oh. Ugh. ... Well, still...
>
> (note: this is not meant to reflect on big jocks at all... that
> just
> happened to be who they were :) )
>
Jocks have nothing to do with it. I've got an IQ near 200 and I make
that mistake.

*************************************************************************
********************
Griffin Industries
"A Shadowrunner's Corp."

http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/Griffin/index.html

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Message no. 36
From: NaCl(aq) jed7466@******.isc.rit.edu
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 21:50:42 -0400
Hunter wrote:

>
> Jocks have nothing to do with it. I've got an IQ near 200 and I make
> that mistake.
>

Did anyone besides me read that and go 'heh. . . riiiight'? Sorry, guess it's
just the geek/nerd reaction kicking in. ;) I just had to comment. Now back to
your regularly scheduled talking. . . . .


--
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-------------
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e>e+++
h>h+ r--- !y+**
Message no. 37
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 19:36:19 -0700 (PDT)
> phil_urbanhell@*******.com wrote:
>
> > Any of you other guys remember their first comment
when they saw Hanson? I was ewwing for weeks.
>
> Conversation overheard in a club:
>
> Big Jock #1: Hey, you know, the older chick in
Hanson is pretty hot.
> Big Jock #2: Dude... they're guys.
> Big Jock #1: Oh. Ugh. ... Well, still...
>
> (note: this is not meant to reflect on big jocks at
all... that just happened to be who they were :) )
> Dan "Moose" Grabon - djmoose@******.kornet.net

*lol*

Personally, I thought the middle one was a babe. This
was AFTER I heard him singing and saw him bouncing
around on the video clip, but before my brother
pointed the truth out to me...

I'm almost embarrassed to admit it, but I kinda feel
like Big Jock #1 - I still get the "He'd really make a
pretty girl" thought running through my head when I
see Hanson. :)

Now if you'll excuse me, I feel nauseous.

*Doc' requires to his toiletries bag and his cyberpro...*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

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Message no. 38
From: NaCl(aq) jed7466@******.isc.rit.edu
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 22:46:45 -0400
--Boundary_(ID_Vaf3qs4UIDnFriJsXvXmOQ)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Rand Ratinac wrote:

>
>
> *Doc' requires to his toiletries bag and his cyberpro...*
>
> D('snhm) wrote:
> *D('snhm) cautiously leaves a peace offering of assorted cheeses and
> scurries away...*
>

*NaC innocently hides the cheddar behind his back*
Does this mean the cheese is up for grabs?

How come there is not kleptomania flaw? Or would that just fall under compulsive?


--
NaCl(aq)
-------------
GCS(GAT) d>d-- s-:- a-->a? C++++ S E W+>W++ w PS? PE Y+ R+ tv-@ b+ DI+++ G
e>e+++ h>h+
r--- !y+**


--Boundary_(ID_Vaf3qs4UIDnFriJsXvXmOQ)
Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
Rand Ratinac wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>&nbsp;
<p>*Doc' requires to his toiletries bag and his cyberpro...*
<p>D('snhm) wrote:
<br>*D('snhm) cautiously leaves a peace offering of assorted cheeses and
<br>scurries away...*
<br><a
href="http://im.yahoo.com/"></a>&nbsp;</blockquote>;
*NaC innocently hides the cheddar behind his back*
<br>Does this mean the cheese is up for grabs?
<p>How come there is not kleptomania flaw? Or would that just fall under
compulsive?
<br>&nbsp;
<p>--
<br>NaCl(aq)
<br>-------------
<br>GCS(GAT) d>d-- s-:- a-->a? C++++ S E W+>W++ w PS? PE Y+ R+ tv-@ b+
DI+++ G e>e+++ h>h+ r--- !y+**
<br>&nbsp;</html>

--Boundary_(ID_Vaf3qs4UIDnFriJsXvXmOQ)--
Message no. 39
From: Grim Shear grim_shear@*******.com
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 22:04:15 CDT
>Did anyone besides me read that and go 'heh. . . riiiight'? Sorry, guess
>it's just the geek/nerd reaction kicking in. ;) I just had to comment. Now
>back to your regularly scheduled talking. . . . .
>NaCl(aq)


I had the same thought. A slight exageration I'm sure (unless of course
we're blessed by some intellectual phenomes).

Grim Shear
"I love my brain."
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Message no. 40
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 22:11:46 -0700 (PDT)
> > *Doc' requires to his toiletries bag and his
> cyberpro...*
> >
> > D('snhm) wrote:
> > *D('snhm) cautiously leaves a peace offering of
> assorted cheeses and
> > scurries away...*
>
> *NaC innocently hides the cheddar behind his back*
> Does this mean the cheese is up for grabs?

If you're foolish enough to want to get involved...:)

> How come there is not kleptomania flaw? Or would
that just fall under compulsive?

*Doc' worships NaC as a genius and Master Purveyor of
the Bleeding Obvious...*

You just answered your own question, NaC. :)

Exactly how kleptomanic (hey, did I just make a word
up? :) ) the character is would determine the actual
cost. If he only snatches the odd piece of fruit from
the local vegie store, I wouldn't give him anything.
If he couldn't go shopping without taking at least a
small something from most places he visited, that'd be
a one pointer. If he made a point of appropriating at
least one item from almost every single place he
visits, including inconvenient items (trying to steal
a guard's hat, or a footballer's jockstrap), that'd be
two points. If he tried to steal such items while the
target is still WEARING them, or couldn't restrain
himself from stealing, even if he'd be stealing from
Lofwyr, then it'd be 3 points.

If the character was also foolish enough (or nice
enough to the GM, depending on how you wish to look at
it :) ) to take the Police Record flaw as well, I'd
increase the value of the compulsion by one point.

"Stealing again? You're a third time loser, m'boy.
You're going away for life."

"But...but I just ate a grape."

"You ATE a grape? Okay, boys, juice up the electric
chair!"

*Doc' gets a suit of nonconductive long
johns...mmmm...toasty warm...*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

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Message no. 41
From: Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 16:46:34 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Jill <jmenning@***********.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 9:30 AM
Subject: Re: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)


>
>>The way I see it, totems are steriotypes of different animals. Any other
>>opinions out there?
>
>I also think that what the totem is like is strongly influenced by the
>original beliefs of the shaman. If the shaman was raised in a culture that
>looks upon Raven as a guardian and a good omen, then that person would be
>hard-pressed to accept the Raven described in the SR book (troublemaker,
>thrives on chaos, sign of trouble, etc) Even if it is not a cultural
>belief, if it is the way the person has always viewed the creature, for
>whatever reason, the result would be the same. It may be necessary to
>adjust the modifiers at character creation to account for that sort of
>thing. So the modifiers for a dog shaman would be based upon what the
>shaman thought dogs were like, stereotypically. If they were in contact
>with household pets, mostly, then it would be the cheerful, loyal, playful,
>protective sort of thing. If their only experience with dogs was watching
>the strays that live in the streets, they'd probably see them as wary,
>defensive, vicious fighters, and intent on dominance. Those choices are, of
>course, between the player and the GM, but I think that the character's
>perception of the totem is very important.
>
>Jill


Very true. Ravens in Europe are the dark shadows of death, that follow
marching troops because they know a war (and a feast for ravens) will be
coming. However, for Scandinavian societies pre-church, Huginn and Muninn
were the mind and eyes of the chief of the gods, and in the Tower of London,
the birds are considered a good omen as long as they stay. I personally
think that it depends more on the mindset of the area than the mindset of
the individual shaman. I have it that the shaman is like a weathervein,
their personality changes to match the belief of how the locals see the
particular totem. Very distracting for the team-mates of a roving shaman.
Message no. 42
From: Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 16:51:02 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 12:38 PM
Subject: Re: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)


>> phil_urbanhell@*******.com wrote:
>>
>> > Any of you other guys remember their first comment
>when they saw Hanson? I was ewwing for weeks.
>>
>> Conversation overheard in a club:
>>
>> Big Jock #1: Hey, you know, the older chick in
>Hanson is pretty hot.
>> Big Jock #2: Dude... they're guys.
>> Big Jock #1: Oh. Ugh. ... Well, still...
>>
>> (note: this is not meant to reflect on big jocks at
>all... that just happened to be who they were :) )
>> Dan "Moose" Grabon - djmoose@******.kornet.net
>
>*lol*
>
>Personally, I thought the middle one was a babe. This
>was AFTER I heard him singing and saw him bouncing
>around on the video clip, but before my brother
>pointed the truth out to me...
>
>I'm almost embarrassed to admit it, but I kinda feel
>like Big Jock #1 - I still get the "He'd really make a
>pretty girl" thought running through my head when I
>see Hanson. :)
>
>Now if you'll excuse me, I feel nauseous.
>
>*Doc' requires to his toiletries bag and his cyberpro...*
>
Have you seen that Killing Heidi video? (sorry, Australian band, not sure if
they've made it overseas yet) The trannie in that is a real babe. Even
though you see him at the beginning of the video as a male, with no shirt
on, you still have a hard time believing he's not a girl when he's all made
up. I'm just glad I am very secure in my sexuality, or I'd be really
bothered :?)
Message no. 43
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 00:33:21 -0700 (PDT)
> >*lol*
> >
> >Personally, I thought the middle one was a babe.
This was AFTER I heard him singing and saw him
bouncing around on the video clip, but before my
brother pointed the truth out to me...
> >
> >I'm almost embarrassed to admit it, but I kinda
feel like Big Jock #1 - I still get the "He'd really
make a pretty girl" thought running through my head
when I see Hanson. :)
> >
> >Now if you'll excuse me, I feel nauseous.
> >
> >*Doc' requires to his toiletries bag and his
cyberpro...*

*sigh*

I have GOTTA start checking my typing more
carefully...

> Have you seen that Killing Heidi video? (sorry,
Australian band, not sure if they've made it overseas
yet) The trannie in that is a real babe. Even though
you see him at the beginning of the video as a male,
with no shirt on, you still have a hard time believing
he's not a girl when he's all made up. I'm just glad I
am very secure in my sexuality, or I'd be really
bothered :?)

I know what you mean. Could do with fake breasts, but
apart from that...

Scary, isn't it? :)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

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Message no. 44
From: Dan Grabon djmoose@******.kornet.net
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 19:10:47 +0900
On 5/17/00 11:36 AM, Rand Ratinac at docwagon101@*****.com wrote:

> Personally, I thought the middle one was a babe. This
> was AFTER I heard him singing and saw him bouncing
> around on the video clip, but before my brother
> pointed the truth out to me...

Absolutely. Their voices only reinforced the illusion. :)

Well, actually, the first time I heard them (before I saw them or knew who
they were) I said, "Why is this radio station suddenly playing the Jackson
5?"

-moose

---
Dan "Moose" Grabon - djmoose@******.kornet.net
I would sell my soul for Hello Kitty in a kimono.
--Spiff
Message no. 45
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 12:50:54 +0200
According to Phil Smith, at 20:01 on 16 May 00, the word on the street
was...

> Any of you other guys remember their first comment when they saw Hanson? I
> was ewwing for weeks.

At the group or at the song? :)

> I think the majority of posers will have something mentally wrong with them
> (some kind of eating disorder for example). In the book it says they try to
> asociate with elves when ever they can. I equate that to obsessive fans and
> the like; people who cut themselves up because Richey Edwards did.

Which IMnsHO automatically shows they aren't thinking straight... First of
all, if you ask me people who cut themselves aren't 100% stable, and if
they do it because the Manic Street Preachers guy did it, they're doing it
for the exact opposite reason he did it...

Anyway, back to our normal ShadowRN programming :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
But it's obviously a dream, as I'm waiting for that beam...
--Millencollin, "Vulcan Ears"
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 46
From: NaCl(aq) jed7466@******.isc.rit.edu
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 09:00:26 -0400
Rand Ratinac wrote:

> > > *Doc' requires to his toiletries bag and his
> > cyberpro...*
> > >
> > > D('snhm) wrote:
> > > *D('snhm) cautiously leaves a peace offering of
> > assorted cheeses and
> > > scurries away...*
> >
> > *NaC innocently hides the cheddar behind his back*
> > Does this mean the cheese is up for grabs?
>
> If you're foolish enough to want to get involved...:)
>
> > How come there is not kleptomania flaw? Or would
> that just fall under compulsive?
>
> *Doc' worships NaC as a genius and Master Purveyor of
> the Bleeding Obvious...*
>

*bow* It was a last minute attempt to keep some SR info in the thread.
<snip>

>
> Exactly how kleptomanic (hey, did I just make a word
> up? :) )

No. :)

<snip>

Is there any way to make a character do something against their will, but not with magic?
Like a implant skillsoft or something. . . I want to make a beserker, but one who beserks
against his will.
--
NaCl(aq)
-------------
GCS(GAT) d>d-- s-:- a-->a? C++++ S E W+>W++ w PS? PE Y+ R+ tv-@ b+ DI+++ G
e>e+++ h>h+
r--- !y+**
Message no. 47
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 17:45:28 GMT
>From: Jill <jmenning@***********.com>
>I also think that what the totem is like is strongly influenced by the
>original beliefs of the shaman. If the shaman was raised in a culture that
>looks upon Raven as a guardian and a good omen, then that person would be
>hard-pressed to accept the Raven described in the SR book (troublemaker,
>thrives on chaos, sign of trouble, etc) Even if it is not a cultural
>belief, if it is the way the person has always viewed the creature, for
>whatever reason, the result would be the same. It may be necessary to
>adjust the modifiers at character creation to account for that sort of
>thing. So the modifiers for a dog shaman would be based upon what the
>shaman thought dogs were like, stereotypically. If they were in contact
>with household pets, mostly, then it would be the cheerful, loyal, playful,
>protective sort of thing. If their only experience with dogs was watching
>the strays that live in the streets, they'd probably see them as wary,
>defensive, vicious fighters, and intent on dominance. Those choices are, of
>course, between the player and the GM, but I think that the character's
>perception of the totem is very important.
>
>Jill

THis reminds me of something I read somewhere out there in Web Ring land,
hang on...

To: Akiko Kano
From; Arthur White Eagle
Re: Individualist shamans
The subject was quite a strange type, he insisted that Owl was not some
creature of the night, and he seemed to possess superb skills with
divination magic, day or night. Subject was totally unreasoning and was
ejected from the Tribe for refusing to bow to their wishes. Subject was a
good example of what others and I have come to refer to as an Individualist
Shaman. The Individualist Shaman is an interesting variant, marked by a few
key differences;
1. The Individualist does not agree with the "archetypal" animal that has
served as a totem for centuries to many different cultures.
2. The Individualist chooses his own version over the archetype for his
totem.
3. Other "conventional" shamans generally do not accept the subject, due to
his anti-social attitude and the absence of the lodge.
4. As previously mentioned, Individualists do not possess, nor can they use,
a lodge. When performing operations that normally require a lodge, they
instead replace it with a ritual of some sort, whether ritual meditation,
dancing, incense and trances. In return, the powers of the Individualist
seems to have greater skill with areas of expertise that he has come to
consider the areas of expertise of his totem. Though the overall level of
power is similar to a conventional shaman, the lack of the magical
protection of the lodge is a serious drawback. Further study must be done on
this subject, once we can find more definite evidence.

[We have all been aware of shamanism as a path of magic for many years now,
the ghost dance kinda leaves these things in our minds, eh? But, this is
what happens when a proto-shaman disagrees with conventional shamans. Owl
for instance loves night, while suffering somewhat in the daytime hours. It
is common knowledge that that is how owls are, so that is how Owl is. That
does not always hold in the modern age of science. Though common wisdom says
that owls are nocturnal, many are actually excellent hunters during the
daylight. So what happens when a young proto-shaman grows up watching the
Learning Channel on the trid? He sees a different truth than what is common
wisdom. When he suddenly walks into the wilderness one morning on a vision
quest, does he forget what he learned, taking as truth the common wisdom?
Most do, some do not, it depends on their mind, and their strength of
will.]<<<<<
--Nemain

[How does a Tir Elf Hermetic come across telling us about Shamanism anyway?
Who is she to say I am weak for accepting Wolf into my heart?]<<<<<
--Running Wyld

[Think of it as you accepting the truth that Wolf showed you, instead of
being stubborn. I believe in Raven the great Trickster, yet my views have
always been different from the lodge at home, which is why I came to Seattle
in the first place. Though I am not an individualist shaman as Nemain is
talking, I can see the… stubbornness that makes them reject common wisdom
for their own idea of Totem, even if such a thing is alien to me.]<<<<<
--Trxtyr

[The individualist shaman tends to follow a path that they set for
themselves, based on their belief of what the Totem should be. They must
already possess a strong belief in the "right path" before they are chosen,
the common wisdom of the totem would otherwise override the knowledge that
they possess. Sometimes, the paths of a totem might already have diverged in
the past, such as cat and wildcat. The new path, when persistent enough to
continue, can become common wisdom under its own power. These oaths are also
ancient, but magic is still new to most of us. I met a guy that follows
Mantis as a totem. Before the bug-hunters come after me let me make it clear
that he was not an insect shaman. He summoned nature spirits, not insect
spirits. He is an oriental Magicians Path adept, who calls his totem Mantis
the Hunter. He has studied Mantis Kung Fu (if I got the style name right)
and travels alleys late at night trying to destroy insect spirits. I will
not post his name for his own protection, he has enough trouble when he
manifests the "shamans mask". Personally I see this as manifesting a totem
to reflect his personal belief of Mantis. From conversations I have had, it
seems that he was the only one in the group of trainees that actually
manifested as a mantis totem]<<<<<
--Torch

[That aside, the shamans lose something by going against what everyone else
in the world KNOWS to be true, namely the fellowship of other shamans, and
the shamanic lodge as mentioned. Other shamans tend to distrust the
individualist, a lot believing that the individualist could very well be a
toxic shaman or maybe even an insect shaman trying to masquerade as a
shaman. The lack of a lodge is a strange side effect, but mainly seems to
come with the nature of the coming into power. The have no one to train them
in the proper way, perhaps after a few years the new path could develop the
same traditions. The lodge has been replaced with forms of meditation or
even dancing, but without the protection of the astral barrier.]<<<<<
--Nemain

[To take up a point mentioned in the memo though (point-3) I think the
Individualists become more anti-social from the treatment other shamans, not
as some facet of their nature. Other shamans also seem to treat them badly
due to the lack of a lodge and add to the alienation. It’s a self-fulfilling
prophecy of alienation.]<<<<<
--QS "I'm a runner not a figment"

Rules
Individualist shamans must have a strong concept of what they are, and
generally have a high willpower (though most shamans will anyway).
Individualist shamans can choose a category of spells as well as one type of
spirit (for instance, city spirits or forest) in which they gain a +2 dice
bonus. In exchange they lose two dice in another category of spells and a
type of spirit. They must also designate a method to replace the lodge for
learning spells etc. the new method does not offer a barrier in astral
space, nor can it be performed inside a ward. The act requires an
expenditure of 50¥/ effective rating (as if it were a lodge) that is used
(for incense during meditation, for materials to burn in a bonfire, etc.)
The shaman is open to attack while he is astrally active. No known instance
of individualist construct shamans has ever been reported.

If I knew who created this I would credit them, with it but as it is put out
there for downloading I'm sure they won't mind a little publicity.

Phil

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Message no. 48
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 18:32:08 GMT
>From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
> > Any of you other guys remember their first comment when they saw Hanson?
> I
> > was ewwing for weeks.
>
>At the group or at the song? :)

Both

> > I think the majority of posers will have something mentally wrong with
>them
> > (some kind of eating disorder for example). In the book it says they
>try to
> > asociate with elves when ever they can. I equate that to obsessive fans
>and
> > the like; people who cut themselves up because Richey Edwards did.
>
>Which IMnsHO automatically shows they aren't thinking straight... First of
>all, if you ask me people who cut themselves aren't 100% stable, and if
>they do it because the Manic Street Preachers guy did it, they're doing it
>for the exact opposite reason he did it...

*Phil raises an eyebrow in apreciation of Gurth's musical knowledge*

>Anyway, back to our normal ShadowRN programming :)

Gridsec pet :)>

Phil
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Message no. 49
From: Manolis Skoulikas great_worm@*****.com
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 22:13:34 +0300
Phil Smith wrote:
> Actually I allowed one of the players I GM for to play a character who has
> been surgcally altered to look like an elf because he used to live in an
> "elf" district and he was finding it harder to get accepted by others
> because of the relative roundness of his ears. The character is very
> un-elfy in personality but he still looks like an elf and any elf who knew
> he was a poser would spit on him. So I saw the flaw as justified.
>
> Phil
> ________________________________________________________________________
Talking about surgical alterations and elf posers...

I remember introducing a a sexy elf poser transvestite human rigger
in my campaign as an npc. He/she kept turning up in hot shorts and even
hotter tanktops
(I have also given him/her a charisma of 6! hehe) Eventually a member of
the team got caught into the love trap and they had a flame. As it came
out he found the hard way from a yakuza mage th elf (human) rigger was
owing money to!
He took it rather well actually! Even considered keeping the contact,
which he did and now when heicopters are involved, in walks the elf
poser transvestite rigger!

the wiz
Message no. 50
From: Manolis Skoulikas great_worm@*****.com
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 22:13:43 +0300
Jill wrote:
>
> >The way I see it, totems are steriotypes of different animals. Any other
> >opinions out there?
>
> I also think that what the totem is like is strongly influenced by the
> original beliefs of the shaman.
...
SNIP
...
Those choices are, of
> course, between the player and the GM, but I think that the character's
> perception of the totem is very important.
>
> Jill

I wil give a personal example. I paly a snake shaman as an urban totem.
clearly there are no snakes in the city and the pet thing is rather
"Ewww".
My character was influenced by the archetypal essence of the snake as it
is portrayed in alchemy, the ancient religions and generally in the
occult.
The character has come to contact through ancient Anasazi rituals
through
his paternal grand father (A Zuni Pueblo indian) that raised him and
through books (chips)of Jung in his adolescense (in the orphanage).
His great sorrows in his life urged his awakening as a snake shaman
in the essence of the regenerating effect of the "ouroboros" snake
and the essence of "understanding" and "knowledge" after the
dragon-snake
of the ego is defeated when the person suffers psychological trauma
and realises his vulnerabity.

I think it sounds more hermetic than shamanic but it is a different
way to look at snakes, don't you agree?

the wiz
Message no. 51
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 19:18:41 GMT
>From: Manolis Skoulikas <great_worm@*****.com>
>Talking about surgical alterations and elf posers...
>
>I remember introducing a a sexy elf poser transvestite human rigger
>in my campaign as an npc. He/she kept turning up in hot shorts and even
>hotter tanktops
>(I have also given him/her a charisma of 6! hehe) Eventually a member of
>the team got caught into the love trap and they had a flame. As it came
>out he found the hard way from a yakuza mage th elf (human) rigger was
>owing money to!
>He took it rather well actually! Even considered keeping the contact,
>which he did and now when heicopters are involved, in walks the elf
>poser transvestite rigger!

And I thought I mess with my player's heads *Phil bows to the wiz*

I once played a buliemic elf mage if that comes anywhere close to the above.

Phil

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Message no. 52
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 19:31:01 GMT
>From: Manolis Skoulikas <great_worm@*****.com>
>I wil give a personal example. I paly a snake shaman as an urban totem.
>clearly there are no snakes in the city and the pet thing is rather
>"Ewww".
>My character was influenced by the archetypal essence of the snake as it
>is portrayed in alchemy, the ancient religions and generally in the
>occult.
>The character has come to contact through ancient Anasazi rituals
>through
> his paternal grand father (A Zuni Pueblo indian) that raised him and
>through books (chips)of Jung in his adolescense (in the orphanage).
>His great sorrows in his life urged his awakening as a snake shaman
>in the essence of the regenerating effect of the "ouroboros" snake
>and the essence of "understanding" and "knowledge" after the
>dragon-snake
>of the ego is defeated when the person suffers psychological trauma
>and realises his vulnerabity.
>
>I think it sounds more hermetic than shamanic but it is a different
>way to look at snakes, don't you agree?

Ooh, if we're comparing how shamen discovered totems; my cat shaman was
always really vain, spoilt ect and she had an affinity for felines before
cat "found" her. One day she found a big fluffy cat in her room which after
being stroked for a while suddenly diclared "you'll do well kitten" and
vanished.
She was trained to use magic by her mother who was a mage and so her view
of magic is more formal than most shamen. She just belives that her
abilitys come from Cat (who she has never had any direct contact with beyond
the above incedent).
She is not particularly religious in her following of cat, she just does
what comes naturally to her; sleeps through a lot of the day day, has an
obsession with clenlyness, is very vain and arrogant and goes out until
about 3am. Her ideas about cat's nature is limited to "we have an
understanding".

Ask any ten magicians for a definition of magic...

Phil
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Message no. 53
From: vocenoctum@****.com vocenoctum@****.com
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 16:48:41 -0400
On Wed, 17 May 2000 17:45:28 GMT "Phil Smith"
<phil_urbanhell@*******.com> writes:
<snip individualist shaman>
> If I knew who created this I would credit them, with it but as it is
> put out
> there for downloading I'm sure they won't mind a little publicity.

Its mine, from my site, and I don't mind.
Just for curiosity though, where'd you find it?


Vocenoctum
<http://members.xoom.com/vocenoctum>;

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Message no. 54
From: Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 10:31:41 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Manolis Skoulikas <great_worm@*****.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Thursday, May 18, 2000 5:11 AM
Subject: Re: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)



>Talking about surgical alterations and elf posers...
>
>I remember introducing a a sexy elf poser transvestite human rigger
>in my campaign as an npc. He/she kept turning up in hot shorts and even
>hotter tanktops
>(I have also given him/her a charisma of 6! hehe) Eventually a member of
>the team got caught into the love trap and they had a flame. As it came
>out he found the hard way from a yakuza mage th elf (human) rigger was
>owing money to!
>He took it rather well actually! Even considered keeping the contact,
>which he did and now when heicopters are involved, in walks the elf
>poser transvestite rigger!
>
>the wiz
>
>
A friend of mine also had a trannie elf. Strange coincidence. Mind you, this
elf hadn't had any surgery or anything, just a straight (?) transvestite.
Message no. 55
From: Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 10:48:18 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Phil Smith <phil_urbanhell@*******.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Thursday, May 18, 2000 5:31 AM
Subject: Re: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)


>Ooh, if we're comparing how shamen discovered totems; my cat shaman was
>always really vain, spoilt ect and she had an affinity for felines before
>cat "found" her. One day she found a big fluffy cat in her room which
after
>being stroked for a while suddenly diclared "you'll do well kitten" and
>vanished.
-snip-
My story's a good one too. My character started off as a normal guy, an
organlegger with an aversion to cyberware. He had a wife and kids who he was
devoted to, and he was a typical stubborn ork. Then one day we thought about
how cool it would be if he was a shaman and didn't know it. The opportunity
came when he tried to take on a bear armed only with a knife (he had a gun,
but he was machismo). While he lay in a pool of blood, Dog came to him, made
him better in return for life service. The cool thing is, he fit the dog
shaman thing before we decided to make him a dog shaman.
Message no. 56
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 20:11:53 -0700 (PDT)
> > Exactly how kleptomanic (hey, did I just make a
word up? :) )
>
> No. :)

*Doc' cusses up a storm...*

> <snip>
>
> Is there any way to make a character do something
against their will, but not with magic? Like a implant
skillsoft or something. . . I want to make a beserker,
but one who beserks against his will.
> NaCl(aq)

Yes, O Grand Master of the Bleeding Obvious. ;)

An implant skillsoft is one way to do exactly what
you're talking about and probably the best. If you
stick a persona chip in, then they'll act according to
the persona. If the persona is that of a berserk
killer, then...

If you've got a copy of Threats, read up on
Winternight.

Another way, off-hand, would be to use psychotropic IC
on them - one of the behaviour altering versions.

Although it's not in the rules, you could probably use
the mindwipe machinery from CC to reprogram someone's
behaviour - you could even adapt it from the rules
already there.

*Doc' worships at the feet - which happen to be the
things on the end of his legs - of NaC, Grand Master
of the Bleeding Obvious...

"Oh, Grand Master - that would be you, NaC - am I a
worthy devotee yet?"*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

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Message no. 57
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 17:43:44 GMT
>From: vocenoctum@****.com
><snip individualist shaman>
> > If I knew who created this I would credit them, with it but as it is
> > put out
> > there for downloading I'm sure they won't mind a little publicity.
>
>Its mine, from my site, and I don't mind.
>Just for curiosity though, where'd you find it?

On your site I'd imagine, I downloaded pretty much everything off it so I
didn't bother adding the adress to my favorites, that and as I remember I
was on a school computer at the time. I reached it via the web ring.

Why, have you lost it? :)>

Phil
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Message no. 58
From: vocenoctum@****.com vocenoctum@****.com
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 20:00:57 -0400
On Thu, 18 May 2000 17:43:44 GMT "Phil Smith"
<phil_urbanhell@*******.com> writes:
> >From: vocenoctum@****.com
> ><snip individualist shaman>
> > > If I knew who created this I would credit them, with it but as
> it is
> > > put out
> > > there for downloading I'm sure they won't mind a little
> publicity.
> >
> >Its mine, from my site, and I don't mind.
> >Just for curiosity though, where'd you find it?
>
> On your site I'd imagine, I downloaded pretty much everything off it
> so I
> didn't bother adding the adress to my favorites, that and as I
> remember I
> was on a school computer at the time. I reached it via the web
> ring.
>
> Why, have you lost it? :)>
>

Nyah, I still know where I put it :-)
But, a while back, there was some copying going on, so I figured I'd ask.
But hey, as long as someone uses it.... :-)


Vocenoctum
<http://members.xoom.com/vocenoctum>;

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Message no. 59
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 09:32:34 GMT
>From: vocenoctum@****.com
> > Why, have you lost it? :)>
> >
>
>Nyah, I still know where I put it :-)
>But, a while back, there was some copying going on, so I figured I'd ask.
>But hey, as long as someone uses it.... :-)

I just checked the link on your signiture and I'm pretty sure that's the
one.

Phil
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Message no. 60
From: Manolis Skoulikas great_worm@*****.com
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 00:14:17 +0300
Simon and Fiona wrote:

> A friend of mine also had a trannie elf. Strange coincidence. Mind you, this
> elf hadn't had any surgery or anything, just a straight (?) transvestite.

i remember a girl playing a street transvestie, wired to the bone and
having a killer hand to hand skill with a specializartion in:

drum beats....

High heels!!!!!!

It's a true story! she nailed people with a high heeled shoe in hand!

the wiz
Message no. 61
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 18:46:29 GMT
>From: Manolis Skoulikas <great_worm@*****.com>
>i remember a girl playing a street transvestie, wired to the bone and
>having a killer hand to hand skill with a specializartion in:
>
>drum beats....
>
>High heels!!!!!!
>
>It's a true story! she nailed people with a high heeled shoe in hand!

So what is the damage code of a high heeled shoe?

Some items I found the improvised weapon chart in CC lacking were;
Snowballs (Str/2)L stun against double impact, range as standard grenades,
uses thrown weapons.
Guitars (str+2)M stun, uses clubs, add +2 to melee target numbers because
their weight does not lend itself to use in melee.

Phil
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Message no. 62
From: Raveness Ravensbane ravenessravensbane@*****.com
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 12:09:18 -0700 (PDT)
</snip>
> So what is the damage code of a high heeled shoe?
>
> Some items I found the improvised weapon chart in CC
> lacking were;
> Snowballs (Str/2)L stun against double impact, range
> as standard grenades,
> uses thrown weapons.
> Guitars (str+2)M stun, uses clubs, add +2 to melee
> target numbers because
> their weight does not lend itself to use in melee.
>
> Phil
It sounds almost like these people knew from
experience...

Sam: "Here Bob, let me hit you with this chair...."
*thump*
Bob: "Ouch!" *slump*
Sam: "How much would you say that was? (str/2)M stun
or what?"
Bob: *Unconcious*
Sam: "You know you're not helping here."

====~Raveness

http://www.sova.net/trish/roleplaying/shadowrun/pocketsecretary/

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Message no. 63
From: Peter Kristiansen sds@**.auc.dk
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 21:13:09 +0200 (W. Europe Daylight Time)
On Mon, 22 May 2000, Raveness Ravensbane wrote:

> Sam: "Here Bob, let me hit you with this chair...."
> *thump*
> Bob: "Ouch!" *slump*
> Sam: "How much would you say that was? (str/2)M stun
> or what?"
> Bob: *Unconcious*
> Sam: "You know you're not helping here."
>

Thank you very much.. Now I have to clean my monitor!

-----Peter (sds) Kristiansen-----
SRC v0.22 SR1++ SR2+ SR3++ h+ b++(+) B--- UB+ IE+ RN+ W- dk+ sa++ ma++ sh
ad++ ri++ mc-- rk? m- gm M+ P
Message no. 64
From: Peter Kristiansen sds@**.auc.dk
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 21:14:43 +0200 (W. Europe Daylight Time)
On Mon, 22 May 2000, Peter Kristiansen wrote:

> On Mon, 22 May 2000, Raveness Ravensbane wrote:
>
> > Sam: "Here Bob, let me hit you with this chair...."
> > *thump*
> > Bob: "Ouch!" *slump*
> > Sam: "How much would you say that was? (str/2)M stun
> > or what?"
> > Bob: *Unconcious*
> > Sam: "You know you're not helping here."
> >
>
> Thank you very much.. Now I have to clean my monitor! O;-)
>
Sorry.. forgot the smiley O;-)

-----Peter (sds) Kristiansen-----
Nihil Antequam Temetum
Message no. 65
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 16:03:40 -0500
:So what is the damage code of a high heeled shoe?
:Phil

In "First Run" the girl ganger in the Food Fight scenario has armored
high heals that do (strength) M.
I th9ink that's a bit high. I did read a book once written by a
coroner, and one of his autopsies involved death from an apparent gunshot to
the head. There was an entry hole a bit less than 1cm in diameter, with no
exit wound, and no bullet was found. Eventually, the crime was solved by
other means, and it turned out that the murderer was a large, strong
transvestite male who had driven the heal of his stiletto pump through the
victims skull.
Given that, I'd still only put them at (strength) L. The pump in the
story would do 4-6L, like a holdout or medium pistol, and the blow to the
skull would represent a called shot attack that scored 6 successes (perhaps
due to an ambush situation). I'm guessing girly boy got in a very lucky
hit, but giving a damn stiletto heal a better damage rating than that is a
bit much- you'd think a cyberspur designed for combat use would work better
than a high heal shoe!

Mongoose


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Message no. 66
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 12:41:51 +0200
According to Raveness Ravensbane, at 12:09 on 22 May 00, the word on the
street was...

> It sounds almost like these people knew from
> experience...

Nah, that's Phoenix Command :)

> Sam: "Here Bob, let me hit you with this chair...."
> *thump*
> Bob: "Ouch!" *slump*
> Sam: "How much would you say that was? (str/2)M stun
> or what?"
> Bob: *Unconcious*
> Sam: "You know you're not helping here."

Two small problems with this approach: first of all, Sam would need to hit
Bob with the same number of successes (I can't think of a way to say this
without using game terms) each time, and the number would need to be
known; and second, if you hit Bob with something I have a feeling it'll
bounce off and Bob will roll away. Adam, care to do some testing? :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Here come the golden oldies. Here come the Hezbollah.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

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Message no. 67
From: Dan Grabon djmoose@******.kornet.net
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 01:02:15 +0900
On 5/23/00 7:41 PM, Gurth at gurth@******.nl wrote:

>> Sam: "Here Bob, let me hit you with this chair...."
>> *thump*
>> Bob: "Ouch!" *slump*
>> Sam: "How much would you say that was? (str/2)M stun
>> or what?"
>> Bob: *Unconcious*
>> Sam: "You know you're not helping here."
>
> Two small problems with this approach: first of all, Sam would need to hit
> Bob with the same number of successes (I can't think of a way to say this
> without using game terms) each time, and the number would need to be
> known; and second, if you hit Bob with something I have a feeling it'll
> bounce off and Bob will roll away. Adam, care to do some testing? :)

Man, this is all way too funny. One of the guys in my long-time gaming
group is named Bob, and he is always but always the (typically unwitting)
guinea pig for whatever cruel experiments someone has in mind. Like the
time my friend and I saw an article about backdrafts in the newspaper (right
about the time the movie came out) and talked the GM into letting us
engineer one in an AD&D game. Then it was, "Hey, Bob, we're gonna go down
this hallway to see what's there. Why don't you check those big heavy doors
over on that side? Nevermind if it feels a little hot."

And then there was the time his giant beetle got hit with a Raid trap...

And I don't quite remember, but when I was GMing Shadowrun and thought,
"Hmmm... today I'd like a character to get blasted out a plate glass window
and plummet to his likely death," I'm pretty sure Bob's character was the
victim. Then again, it might have been the rules lawyer in our group that I
decided to torment.

-moose

---
Dan "Moose" Grabon - djmoose@******.kornet.net
The best things in life are silly.
-- Scott Adams
Message no. 68
From: Raveness Ravensbane ravenessravensbane@*****.com
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 11:46:26 -0700 (PDT)
> :So what is the damage code of a high heeled shoe?
> :Phil

*thinking of my earlier discussion between sam and bob
trying to figure out damage codes of misc melee
weapons through use* Hmmm... I should ask Chris about
that...I've stepped on his feet enough times while
wearing spike heels...and yes, some of those times I
-was- standing with his head over my shoulder and my
back to his chest...Though I must admit, letting him
wear steel toe boots to dance lessons (for the
wedding) while I wore open toe shoes wasn't the
greatest Idea...steel toe boots I figure at least
(strength)m on bare toes...they swelled up good and
hurt for days.

====~Raveness

http://www.sova.net/trish/roleplaying/shadowrun/pocketsecretary/

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Message no. 69
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 20:46:06 GMT
>From: "Sebastian Wiers" <m0ng005e@*********.com>
<SNIP>
>I'd still only put them at (strength) L.

Nice story :)>

Is that damage stun or physical? The heels are blunt but... I'm not sure if
stun really fits; you can punch holes after all.

Phil
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Message no. 70
From: Manolis Skoulikas great_worm@*****.com
Subject: Edges and Flaws (was Addiction)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 00:40:07 +0300
Phil Smith wrote:
>
> >From: Manolis Skoulikas <great_worm@*****.com>
> >i remember a girl playing a street transvestie, wired to the bone and
> >having a killer hand to hand skill with a specializartion in:
> >
> >drum beats....
> >
> >High heels!!!!!!
> >
> >It's a true story! she nailed people with a high heeled shoe in hand!
>
> So what is the damage code of a high heeled shoe?
The GM let her use STR L like a knife.
Then she got pissed off (*we wuz robbed* type of thing) and later went
on to install a cyberspur/foot ancor in a lower leg implant which she
then proceeded to dikote! When she got pissed at people she really
rocked (and literally kicked hoops!) but she ended ruining her favorite
shoes, a fact that pissed her off even more, making her rant on the
hapless victim about him ruining her fave shoes and how he's gonna pay
for it (sometimes all these taking place even after the victim has
allready reached Deadly damage!)

the wiz

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