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Message no. 1
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Edges & Flaws
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 11:36:15 +0100
After playing around with the points-based chargen system from the new
Companion a bit, I decided I like the edges and flaws, but I don't like
the way you have to balance edges and flaws if you use the standard
chargen system...

So, by referring to the Building Points Table, it's easy enough to work
out a way for trading in attribute/skill/force points for edges:

Attribute points x 2 + Skill points + Force points / 2 = Edges points

For example, a character created with 20 Attribute and 40 Skill Points (B
and A priorities, respectively) spends only 19 points on Attributes and 38
on skills. This gives him or her a total of 4 Building Points to spend on
Edges.


Likewise, taking flaws can simply give a few Building Points to spend on
extra stuff per the Building Points Table (if more Flaws than Edges are
taken, that is).
Only allowing the player to spend these Building Points on attributes,
skills, and additional force points is probably the best move.

What do you think?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
All you need to do is close your eyes.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 2
From: James Ojaste <jojaste@*****.CSCLUB.UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: Edges & Flaws
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 13:15:32 -0500
Gurth wrote:
> After playing around with the points-based chargen system from the new
> Companion a bit, I decided I like the edges and flaws, but I don't like
> the way you have to balance edges and flaws if you use the standard
> chargen system...

We've found that this *really* helps the game balance (we enforce a
balance even with the 100pt system).

> Likewise, taking flaws can simply give a few Building Points to spend on
> extra stuff per the Building Points Table (if more Flaws than Edges are
> taken, that is).
> Only allowing the player to spend these Building Points on attributes,
> skills, and additional force points is probably the best move.
>
> What do you think?

Well, it seems like a sane way to allow an imbalance (between Edges & Flaws).

However, the Edges & Flaws have a few balance problems (moreso with unequal
E&Fs):
1) Bonus Attribute Point - sure, I'll trade in 5 attribute points for
5 attribute points + 5 points in edges... Disallowed.
2) Aptitudes. Ick. Aptitude in Sorcery, anyone? We're only allowing
aptitudes in knowledge/technical skills, unless and until someone
demonstrates a cool abuse.
3) Bio-rejection = Sensitive System (for magically-active chars). Why?
We reduced the value of SS to -1.
4) High Pain Tolerance. OK, my physad spends 4.5 attribute points instead
of 4.5 magic points... Disallowed.
5) Amnesia - cool idea, GM goes nuts when some idiot takes Amnesia -5.
Better bribe the GM well if you want this at above -3.
6) Education - why does your education suddenly make certain things harder?
Ex: High School -> Technical destroys all benefits when defaulting to
Knowledge-based skills, but has the same point cost.
b) Illiterate = Uneducated in value, but uneducated means you can read.
Probably increase Illiterate to -2.
7) Day Job. Net 0pt edge/flaw?
8) Magical talent edges - cool idea, but really expensive for adepts - spend
an extra point or two to become a full mage

Once these things have been fixed, you'd still better be careful about
letting people buy up extra edges without flaws. Quite a few physad-type
abilities can be had dirt-cheap.

James

--
As paranoia fills his mind, the champion of the night runs through
the shadows cast by the amber streetlights above and he wonders,
"Maybe I should get a life?"
jojaste@******.uwaterloo.ca, http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/u/jojaste
Message no. 3
From: MENARD Steve <menars@***.UMONTREAL.CA>
Subject: Re: Edges & Flaws
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 22:25:41 -0500
On Tue, 17 Dec 1996, James Ojaste wrote:

> Well, it seems like a sane way to allow an imbalance (between Edges & Flaws).
>
> However, the Edges & Flaws have a few balance problems (moreso with unequal
> E&Fs):
> 1) Bonus Attribute Point - sure, I'll trade in 5 attribute points for
> 5 attribute points + 5 points in edges... Disallowed.
> 2) Aptitudes. Ick. Aptitude in Sorcery, anyone? We're only allowing
> aptitudes in knowledge/technical skills, unless and until someone
> demonstrates a cool abuse.
> 3) Bio-rejection = Sensitive System (for magically-active chars). Why?
> We reduced the value of SS to -1.
> 4) High Pain Tolerance. OK, my physad spends 4.5 attribute points instead
> of 4.5 magic points... Disallowed.
> 5) Amnesia - cool idea, GM goes nuts when some idiot takes Amnesia -5.
> Better bribe the GM well if you want this at above -3.
> 6) Education - why does your education suddenly make certain things harder?
> Ex: High School -> Technical destroys all benefits when defaulting to
> Knowledge-based skills, but has the same point cost.
> b) Illiterate = Uneducated in value, but uneducated means you can read.
> Probably increase Illiterate to -2.
> 7) Day Job. Net 0pt edge/flaw?
> 8) Magical talent edges - cool idea, but really expensive for adepts - spend
> an extra point or two to become a full mage
>
To those I would add :
Night vision : with this and some other edges, you can build an elf
for about the same point cost and not have to deal with racism!

Low pain tolerance : strict reading means the character is at a
perpetual light wound regarding modifier.


Some notes :
when upgrading / changing scholarity, role-playing wise, I say you
do not lose previous bonuses.

Extra attribute point available ONLY with priority-based creation OR
if you MUST balance edges and flaws (getting flaws for some more
attributes is OK by me!).

I'd also add some kind of flaw similar to hunted but where the
ennemy does not ACTIVELYT search for you. If you come to his attention ...
all bets are off .

Basically, edges and flaws are a good, althoug VERY optional,
addition to char creation. It lets you actually get something out of your
background.

> Once these things have been fixed, you'd still better
be careful about
> letting people buy up extra edges without flaws. Quite a few physad-type
> abilities can be had dirt-cheap.
>
I am of a mind to always require character to balances edges and flaws.
Makes the character more believable.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--- |\_/| Still The One and Only Wolfbane! ---
--- |o o| " Hey! Why ya lookin' at me so weird? Ain't ya 'ver seen a ---
--- \ / decker witha horn ?" --- Scy, Troll decker with a CC ---
--- 0 Steve Menard menars@***.UMontreal.Ca ---
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 4
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Edges & Flaws
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 12:36:44 +0100
James Ojaste said on 13:15/17 Dec 96...

> Well, it seems like a sane way to allow an imbalance (between Edges & Flaws).
>
> However, the Edges & Flaws have a few balance problems (moreso with
> unequal E&Fs):
> 1) Bonus Attribute Point - sure, I'll trade in 5 attribute points for
> 5 attribute points + 5 points in edges... Disallowed.

Yep. I forgot about that one -- an extra attribute point costs only 1
point, instead of 2 (maybe I'll change that with a pencil).

> 2) Aptitudes. Ick. Aptitude in Sorcery, anyone? We're only allowing
> aptitudes in knowledge/technical skills, unless and until someone
> demonstrates a cool abuse.

I don't see why an aptitude could apply to some skills, but not to others.
Allowing it for any skill makes sense, IMHO.

> 3) Bio-rejection = Sensitive System (for magically-active chars). Why?
> We reduced the value of SS to -1.

Not quite the same -- a character with bio-rejection cannot use cyberware
at all, while one with sensitive system must double the Essence cost. IMHO
the bit about the shamans in the bio-rejection text should be under
sensitive system, though...

> 4) High Pain Tolerance. OK, my physad spends 4.5 attribute points instead
> of 4.5 magic points... Disallowed.

Yep. I think I'll disallow that edge completely, unless I drastically
increase the cost for it, or limit it to maybe 3 boxes or so.

> 5) Amnesia - cool idea, GM goes nuts when some idiot takes Amnesia -5.
> Better bribe the GM well if you want this at above -3.

I think amnesia goes the wrong way round -- AFAIK, most people suffering
from amnesia IRL have forgotten the recent events that happened to them,
not basic things they lived with all their lives. Only movies have people
forgetting who they are (still, since SR feels cinematic, this may be the
right approach to this flaw for the game).

> 7) Day Job. Net 0pt edge/flaw?

I don't really like this "flaw" much...

> 8) Magical talent edges - cool idea, but really expensive for adepts - spend
> an extra point or two to become a full mage

9) Addiction -- what's this table doing in the book? Just use the rules
from Shadowtech (preferably coupled to Wordman's drugs list) and it works
out much better, IMO. Also, did anyone else notice the table has -1, -2,
and -3, while the flaw itself only has -1 and -2...?

> Once these things have been fixed, you'd still better be careful about
> letting people buy up extra edges without flaws. Quite a few physad-type
> abilities can be had dirt-cheap.

IMO the GM has to approve of any edges and flaws a player takes (what's
this line about us not being gods, eh? :) but I do like a way of letting
players take edges and/or flaws without having to take another one to
compensate for it.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Nothing's changed. Nothing's right.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 5
From: James Ojaste <jojaste@*****.CSCLUB.UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: Edges & Flaws
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 12:57:35 -0500
Gurth wrote:
> > However, the Edges & Flaws have a few balance problems (moreso with
> > unequal E&Fs):
> > 2) Aptitudes. Ick. Aptitude in Sorcery, anyone? We're only allowing
> > aptitudes in knowledge/technical skills, unless and until someone
> > demonstrates a cool abuse.
>
> I don't see why an aptitude could apply to some skills, but not to others.
> Allowing it for any skill makes sense, IMHO.

Usually, combat and magic skills have a bigger game effect than geology or
vehicle B/R. Allowing aptitudes for combat & magic skills is gross - you
can now build a physad who rolls 45? dice looking for 3s in HTH. Sams
get to look for 1s with a smartlink. All for the cost of 1 attribute point.

> > 3) Bio-rejection = Sensitive System (for magically-active chars). Why?
> > We reduced the value of SS to -1.
>
> Not quite the same -- a character with bio-rejection cannot use cyberware
> at all, while one with sensitive system must double the Essence cost. IMHO
> the bit about the shamans in the bio-rejection text should be under
> sensitive system, though...

Yes, SS is obviously better than BR, but they cost *the same* to magically
active chars. It looks like they're halving the value for mages, but
rounding up in one case and down in the other.

> 9) Addiction -- what's this table doing in the book? Just use the rules
> from Shadowtech (preferably coupled to Wordman's drugs list) and it works
> out much better, IMO. Also, did anyone else notice the table has -1, -2,
> and -3, while the flaw itself only has -1 and -2...?

Yeah. That's a pretty obvious typo, though. It's the more subtle ones I'm
worried about.

> IMO the GM has to approve of any edges and flaws a player takes (what's
> this line about us not being gods, eh? :) but I do like a way of letting
> players take edges and/or flaws without having to take another one to
> compensate for it.

I'd probably allow that, but at something like double the cost. Just
an encouragement...

James

--
As paranoia fills his mind, the champion of the night runs through
the shadows cast by the amber streetlights above and he wonders,
"Maybe I should get a life?"
jojaste@******.uwaterloo.ca, http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/u/jojaste
Message no. 6
From: Vael Lashar <ltwiss@********.COM>
Subject: Edges & Flaws
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 23:49:28 +0000
The following is a HO of Vael.

I've always had a problem with Edges and Flaws (for any system).

Edges and Flaws are just a way of manipulating 'roleplaying' and
giving it a statistical value.

What one man finds to be a 'flaw' the next finds it to be an 'edge'.
I 'personally' have a serious 'flaw' but I use it to my advantage
every day.

Take color blindness. Is this a flaw for a man who is married? Yes,
and no. If they are seperated, it posses a problem, but together they
can conquer the flaw, does that still make it a flaw? Sure, you can
set up a million different cases where, she has her mouth tapped shut
and can't help him. Does that once in a million situation warrant it
a flaw, just so he can get an edge? (Which, by the way is how most
players view the system. They might be munchkins, but the game
mechanics do breed this attitude.)

"I really don't need to roleplay the fact that I am afraid of water,
I've been given a +2 modifier, sure it's a thorn in my ass, but it's
only a +2."

A GM can simply toss these rules out. It's his prerogative, but then
you have a player that cries bloody murder. "FASA wrote it as cannon,
so why won't you let me use it!" "No, FASA didn't write it as cannon,
you baboon, they wrote it as an option." "What's the point of even
writing it down in ink if you don't use it. I quit"

The game is suppose to be a fun experience. No matter what kind of
player you are - munch, or actor.

Edges and flaws CAN supplement the actor roleplayer, but it can be
easily abused by the munch. On the same line, a roleplayer can easily
'play' an edge or flaw with no rules for them.

In the end it comes down to GM interpretation. He has the power and
authority to extinguish any inappropriate behaviour and rules
manipulation.

But, who want's to play with a tyrant?

You can reason both sides for eternity, and there is no right answer.

But, as I said earlier:

Edges and Flaws are just a way of manipulating 'roleplaying' and
giving it a statistical value.

I thought that rules were created to squelch any arguments, but I
find to many conficts in E&F's to support them in a game I play.



| | / / | / ____/ /
| | / / /| | / __/ / /
| |/ / ___ |/ /___/ /___
|___/_/ |_/_____/_____/
Message no. 7
From: Tim P Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Edges & Flaws
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:59:49 EST
On Fri, 24 Jan 1997 23:49:28 +0000 Vael Lashar <ltwiss@********.COM>
writes:
>The following is a HO of Vael.

..and not _only_ Vael..

[snip examples]

>Edges and Flaws are just a way of manipulating 'roleplaying' and
>giving it a statistical value.
>
>I thought that rules were created to squelch any arguments, but I
>find to many conficts in E&F's to support them in a game I play.
>

I've felt the same way...it's almost a way to 'bribe' players to make
intersting characters.
Why _should_ you recieve any sort of bonus for being afraid of water? or
being color blind? or having some great enemy?

They just seemed to be an excuse to run some min-maxing and
number-crunching on the role-playing aspects of your character. Not to
mention more stuff for the GM to have to take into consideration and
remember. But hey, that's just me...

I also figure that if you want to incorporate a lot of flaws into your
character, your bonus won't be in extra points at char. gen. but rather
in the role-playing portion of the karma awards after each adventure.

~Tim
Message no. 8
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@******.GWEEP.NET>
Subject: Re: Edges & Flaws
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 14:15:29 -0500
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "TPC" == Tim P Cooper <z-i-m@****.com> writes:

TPC> I've felt the same way...it's almost a way to 'bribe' players to make
TPC> intersting characters.

Almost? It is a bribe to do exactly that. What is wrong with that?

TPC> Why _should_ you recieve any sort of bonus for being afraid of
TPC> water? or being color blind? or having some great enemy?

Why should you *not* receive any sort of bonus for these things,
especially if they do make the character more intersting and do provide
hooks for the player that makes the character more playable and more
interesting?

And you know, "flaws" and "edges" do have a palpable effect on a
character. Someone who is blind will have much sharper hearing than
someone who relies on sight as their primary sense, for instance. A
powerful adversary is after an individual for some reason, something
that individual has that nobody else has.

Think about it.

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--
Rat <ratinox@******.gweep.net> \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged
\ exposure to Happy Fun Ball.
Message no. 9
From: Charles Baker <karolusb@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Edges & Flaws
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 01:55:48 -0800
Vael Lashar wrote:

> Edges and Flaws are just a way of manipulating 'roleplaying' and
> giving it a statistical value.

Unfortunately the whole point of RPGs is just that, even diceless
systems tend to have stats of some sort, and the difference between
having a str score and a natural aptitude for picking locks is small in
my mind. And I wouldn't expect a player to take an uncompensated
disadvantage any more than I would allow then an uncompesnated
advantage.
Message no. 10
From: Ashelock <woneal@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Edges & Flaws
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 17:44:22 -0005
On 28 Jan 97 at 1:55, Charles Baker wrote:

> Vael Lashar wrote:
>
> > Edges and Flaws are just a way of manipulating 'roleplaying' and
> > giving it a statistical value.
>
> Unfortunately the whole point of RPGs is just that, even diceless
Why is it unfortunate? Without stats of some sort the game would likely
and rapidly descend into munchkinism. I played cops and robbers when I
was kid... I remember the arguements about whether or not you hit
someone... whether or not they had armor... all sorts of things. Stats
are the primary tool used to maintain game balance.

> systems tend to have stats of some sort, and the difference between
> having a str score and a natural aptitude for picking locks is small in
> my mind. And I wouldn't expect a player to take an uncompensated
> disadvantage any more than I would allow then an uncompesnated advantage.

If I may, let me interject a word about stats and their history.
Roleplaying games evolved out of wargames. That's important because of
what a wargame attempts to do. Simply put, a wargame attempts to
simulate reality by using mathematical models. These mathematical models
are given various statistics to demonstrate their capabilities. In this
sense, RPGs have more in common with wargames than with theatre. It
remains a fact that most RPGs still center around conflict, which is
usually resolved by force of arms... a clear heritage of their wargame
orgins. Most RPGs cannot be played without the use of statistics,
because these are the heart of how the game works. True, it's possible
to play diceless games, or even play without the rule books. But such
isn't really playing an RPG, it's playing something new that's grown out
of RPGs, just as RPGs evolved out of wargames. If a person wants to play
a diceless game, with few or no rule books, where the emphasis is on
acting rather than stats, that's fine. But such individuals should
understand that what they are doing is not playing RPGs... it's something
new and different. Nor is it any better or worse than RPGs... just as
RPGs are not any better or worse than wargames. Each form of gaming
meets different needs and desires of the players, each has a different
focus.
For a game like SR, which is based on mathematical models and statistics,
ideas such as Edges & Flaws are a good addition and perfectly suited to
the game. But just as giving individual soldiers in a wargame edges and
flaws would be useless (because the unit's capabilities are not based on
the individual soldier), I imagine edges and flaws and statistics would be
equally useless in a "improv theatre" style of play. My advice then, is
to use what works for your style of play. If it fits, use it, if it
doesn't don't use it.
--

Ashelock
mailto: woneal@*******.net

"They say it's a brave new world we're building. I say they're right,
and we'll all have to be pretty brave to live in it."
Message no. 11
From: Charles Baker <karolusb@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Edges & Flaws
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 08:46:20 -0800
Ashelock wrote:
>
> On 28 Jan 97 at 1:55, Charles Baker wrote:
>
> > Vael Lashar wrote:
> >
> > > Edges and Flaws are just a way of manipulating 'roleplaying' and
> > > giving it a statistical value.
> >
> > Unfortunately the whole point of RPGs is just that, even diceless
>
> Why is it unfortunate?

I was saying from his perpective (as I saw it), and from a very
optimistic viewpoint about what roleplaying is. From an idealistic 'you
shouldn't give roleplaying a statistical value' standpoint it is
unfortunate.
Message no. 12
From: Matthias Kerzel <MSKerzel@***.COM>
Subject: Edges & flaws
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 12:29:06 -0400
What do you think of the edges & flaws rules. I think they are too mighty.
Lowering target numbers for certain skills or being able to cast spells (for
physical adeps) will surely unbalance the game.
On the other hand: The main idea is great. PSc should have the oportunity to
be uniqe.
I also think they are too cheap, if the point based system (100) is used.
My question is: How can I prevent my players from taking every edge they
want, and simply paying of the points with minor flaws. Until now, I have
disalowed the rules, but I'm not happy with that.
Are there any houserules yet?

P.s. Please excuse my english. It's not my native language.
Message no. 13
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Edges & flaws
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:44:36 -0600
Matthias Kerzel wrote:
|
| My question is: How can I prevent my players from taking every edge they
| want, and simply paying of the points with minor flaws. Until now, I have
| disalowed the rules, but I'm not happy with that.
| Are there any houserules yet?

The GM always has the right to say "No." And you can say "No" to
individual items. If a player has too many edges, you can tell him
to cut back to a number you feel comfortable with, or tell him which
edges to drop. You can also limit the number of points a player can
spend on edges, and gain from flaws. It's your game, do what feels
right to you.

| P.s. Please excuse my english. It's not my native language.

I couldn't tell :)

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 14
From: MENARD Steve <smenard@****.COM>
Subject: Re[2]: Edges & flaws
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 12:58:19 -0500
In my game, I have banned a few Edges, like night vision, and modified
some other, like high pain toelrance.

In order to limit the number of edges, you MUST balance your edges
with flaws. Meaning, you can't buy edges with building points, only
with points obtained from flaws. That way, the interesting edges,
which often cost a lot, are counter-balanced by the flaws.

Lastly, regarding Magical Edges. If the character has any kind of
magic, he can't take them. I beleive there was a post on the list
regarding the author's original intent.


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Edges & flaws
Author: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET> at INTERNET
Date: 5/28/97 10:44 AM


Matthias Kerzel wrote:
|
| My question is: How can I prevent my players from taking every edge they
| want, and simply paying of the points with minor flaws. Until now, I have
| disalowed the rules, but I'm not happy with that.
| Are there any houserules yet?

The GM always has the right to say "No." And you can say "No" to
individual items. If a player has too many edges, you can tell him
to cut back to a number you feel comfortable with, or tell him which
edges to drop. You can also limit the number of points a player can
spend on edges, and gain from flaws. It's your game, do what feels
right to you.

| P.s. Please excuse my english. It's not my native language.

I couldn't tell :)

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 15
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject: Edges & flaws -Reply
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 13:28:36 -0500
First of all, at least in my game, Edge Points are
NOT Character points. You can only buy Edges
by buying Flaws, and only up to 6 points.

Also, I like the version of magical edges closer
to Steve's original idea: they are available ONLY
to NON-magical characters (yes, this is exactly
opposite to what ended up in the rulebook). Ask
and someone can mail you his post to this list
from before.

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 16
From: Tuvyah@***.COM
Subject: Re: Edges & flaws
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 15:32:17 -0400
Dbeuhrer wrote:

>You can also limit the number of points a player can
spend on edges, and gain from flaws. It's your game, do what feels right to
you.

Absolutely. You can also **create** edges and flaws appropriate to the
character. Assigning points is a matter of game balance, but in our group,
players were pretty relaxed about it -- we understood that the price tag for
a new archetype, edge or flaw was the possibility of GM "adjustment" at some
later time.

Smilin' Ted
"...who knows why he's smilin'."
Message no. 17
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Edges & flaws
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 16:04:11 EDT
On Wed, 28 May 1997 12:29:06 -0400 Matthias Kerzel <MSKerzel@***.COM>
writes:
>What do you think of the edges & flaws rules. I think they are too
mighty.
>Lowering target numbers for certain skills or being able to cast spells
(for
>physical adeps) will surely unbalance the game.


First, the spell edges were only for a particular spell: the character
cannot cast any other spell. Ever. Second, the intent of the author,
Steve Kenson, was that the magical Edges were only accessible to
characters who did not already have a Magic Priority selected. They are
intended to represent other levels of magical ability (like C or D
priority Magic). I personally have no problem with allow them to be used
by any character, whether a magican or otherwise, to represent the
varying ways magical ability can manifest itself, though some
combinations are most certainly something to watch out for. (Astral Sight
on a Physad, for instance, is a problem).


>On the other hand: The main idea is great. PSc should have the
oportunity to
>be uniqe.
>I also think they are too cheap, if the point based system (100) is
used.


Why? By the time you put together a normal-powered character and add in
Edges, you'll have exceeded the 100 Build points you started out with.


>My question is: How can I prevent my players from taking every edge they
>want, and simply paying of the points with minor flaws. Until now, I
have
>disalowed the rules, but I'm not happy with that.
>Are there any houserules yet?


For one, deny access to any Edges you deem unbalancing or over-powerful.
If you don't like the idea of the Magical Edges, don't allow them. If you
find that some are too cheap, increase the cost. This goes ditto for
Flaws. For instance, I don't allow the Lightning Reflex and High Pain
Tolerance Edges, nor do I allow any of Hunted Flaws, and the SOTA Model
Edge (and probably the Licensed Equipment Edge) requires that _I_ pick
out the balancing Flaw points.


>P.s. Please excuse my english. It's not my native language.


Actually, I couldn't tell, so you're doing rather well.


--
-Canthros
And ye shall know the truth, and lobo1@****.com
the truth shall set you free. canthros1@***.com
--John 8:32, KJV
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 18
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Edges & flaws -Reply
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 15:50:13 -0700
---Mike Elkins wrote:
>
> Also, I like the version of magical edges closer
> to Steve's original idea: they are available ONLY
> to NON-magical characters (yes, this is exactly
> opposite to what ended up in the rulebook). Ask
> and someone can mail you his post to this list
> from before.

This came up on another thread just a few weeks ago. The Magical edges
as intended by Steve are to create a sort of "sub-adept," in other
words, they're not to be taken by a character that is already a
magician or form of adept (i.e. the physad that was mentioned now
casting spells). I've pasted his original posting at the end of this
one.

===

@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>

Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/

If in your adventures you happen across the skull of a dragon, turn
and leave that place quickly. Whatever killed the dragon may still be
around.

~!~!~!~!~!~!

Magicians, Adepts and the Build Point System
Taken from a ShadowRN post by Steve Kenson
------------------------------------------------------------------------
MAGICAL ABILITY BREAKDOWN
These are the options for magical ability that I use with the
Build-Point System presented in the Shadowrun Companion. People will
recognize some of these levels of ability as Magical Edges from the
Edges & Flaws section and it might help to clarify how those Edges &
Flaws were intended (by me, at least) to work.

GENERAL RULES
All characters with any kind of magical ability (i.e., anyone who has
spent more than 0 Build Points on magical ability) have a Magic
Attribute, which begins at 6. These characters are collectively known
as "Talented" or "Gifted." ("Magician" is used in my
campaigns as a
generic term for Talented characters with the highest level of magical
ability.) All Talented characters are subject to the rules governing
the Magic Attribute, including loss due to Essence Loss and Deadly
Wounds. Such characters are also all subject to the geasa rules due to
Magic loss.

All Talented characters must follow a tradition (although they may not
always KNOWINGLY do so). The tradition is chosen at character creation
and may not be changed.

MAGICIAN (20 points)
This level gives the character access to full use all of the magical
skills and abilities of his chosen tradition. Generally this will be
either Hermetic (mage) or Shamanic (shaman), but there are other
traditions available to offer slightly different abilities, such as
Nature Magic, Voudoun and so forth.

ADEPT (15 points)
At this level, the character has access to ONE significant area of
magical ability from his chosen tradition. This could be full use of a
single magical skill or partial use of all skills and abilities.
Adepts can bond or use foci that are applicable to their magical
skills and abilities. The character can choose ONE of the following
options:

Conjuring Adept: The character can make full use of the Conjuring
skill, but is considered mundane for other magical skills or
abilities, this includes applications of Conjuring that require Astral
Perception or Projection (including metamagic). The character can bond
or use foci that are applicable to the Conjuring skill.

Elemental Adept: This option is only open to mages. The character is
"aligned" with one of the four hermetic elements: Earth, Air, Fire or
Water. The character can use the Sorcery skill to cast spells aligned
to that element and Conjuring to summon spirits aligned with that
element as well as watchers. The adept can astrally perceive and
project. For all other uses of magical skill, the adept is considered
a mundane.

Physical Adept: The adept "grounds" all of his magical ability into
his body. He may "buy" physical adept powers using his Magic Rating,
but is considered a mundane for the use of all magical skills.
Physical adepts cannot astral perceive unless they purchase the power
that allows them to do so.

Shamanic Adept: This option is only open to shamans. The adept can use
Sorcery to cast spells for which their totem grants a bonus and
Conjuring to summon spirits for which the totem grants a bonus. The
adept can also astrally perceive and project. For all other uses of
magical skill, the adept is considered a mundane. Shamanic adepts are
only available for those totems which provide bonuses based on Spell
Category of Spirit Type, not totems that have bonsuses based on things
such as time of day (such as Owl) or no bonuses (such as Coyote).

Sorcery Adept: The character can make full use of the Sorcery skill,
but is considered mundane for other magical skills or abilities, this
includes applications of Sorcery that require Astral Perception
(including metamagic).

MINOR ADEPT (Cost varies)
At this level, the character has PARTIAL access to the use of a
magical skill or ability or full use of a fairly limited skill or
ability. Minor adepts can bond and use foci that affect their areas of
skill and ability.

Astral Adept (5 points): The character can make use of astral
perception and projection, but is considered a mundane for the use of
all magical skills.

Banishing Adept (5 points): The adept can use the Conjuring skill to
attempt to banish any type of spirit. For all other uses of magical
skill and ability, the adept is considered a mundane. He cannot
control spirits, only banish them. The adept does gain a totem bonus,
if shamanic, for banishing the appropriate kind of spirit.

Enchanting Adept (5 points): The adept can make full use of the
Enchanting skill. For all other magical skills and abilities, the
adept is considered a mundane.

Astral Sight Adept (3 points): The adept can use astral perception,
but not astral projection. For the use of magical skills, the adept is
considered a mundane. Note this still means that the adept can learn
the specialization of Sorcery for astral combat, since even mundanes
can do so (see Awakenings).

Spell Adept (varies): The adept can use the Sorcery skill to cast a
single spell. If the spell is eligible to be cast using Ritual
Sorcery, the adept can do this as well. The adept can also provide
Spell Defense against the spell he can cast, but not from any others.
For all other magical skills and abilities, including other uses of
the Sorcery skill, the adept is considered a mundane. He cannot learn
or use any other spells. The cost is based on the type of spell known:
Combat (4 points), Detection (2 points), Health (3 points), Illusion
(3 points) or Manipulation (4 points). The gamemaster may adjust the
cost if the spell is considered especially flexible or weak. The spell
is automatically known at a Force equal to the adept's starting Magic
Rating and can be increased normally by spending Karma.

Spirit Adept (varies): The adept can use the Conjuring skill to summon
a single type of spirit: a specific elemental or nature spirit or a
watcher spirit. The adept follows the normal rules for conjuring the
spirit, but cannot have more than one spirit summoned or bound at a
time. The adept may also attempt to banish or control spirits of the
type he can summon. For all other magical skills and abilities,
including other uses of the Conjuring skill, the adept is considered a
mundane. The cost is based on the type of spirit the adept can summon:
elemental or nature spirit (5 points), or watcher (3 points).

Negamagic Adept (5 points): The adept can use the Sorcery skill to
provide Spell Defense. The number of dice that the adept may allocate
to spell defense is limited to no more than the adept's Magic
Attribute. The adept does not gain the use of Shielding or any other
metamagical abilities on Initiation, only increased Magic and the
ability to allocate more dice to spell defense per turn that comes
with it. For all other magical skills and abilities, including other
uses of the Sorcery skill, the adept is considered a mundane.

NOTES
Gamemasters may have to keep an eye on minor adepts to keep them from
becoming a problem, given their low point cost. Generally speaking,
the Magic Attribute limitation keeps most character concepts from
abusing the option; it's not worth it for a heavily cybered character
to spend 5 points for Negamagic or Banishing ability if his Magic
Attribute is going to be too low to make much use of it.

Minor adepts (like all of the Talented) have to carefully balance the
benefits of cyberware and implants with maintaining their minor
magical ability. Many of them decide it's not worth it to maintain a
magical lifestyle and go the full cyber-route, burning out and
becoming mundanes. In fact, some cyber characters might have had a
minor adept ability once and just never knew about it before they had
stuffed themselves so full of metal and cultured tissue that their
Power went "poof."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Kenson's writing for FASA includes Awakenings and Shadowrun
Companion
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
Message no. 19
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Edges & flaws
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 10:51:05 +0100
Matthias Kerzel said on 12:29/28 May 97...

> What do you think of the edges & flaws rules. I think they are too mighty.
> Lowering target numbers for certain skills or being able to cast spells (for
> physical adeps) will surely unbalance the game.
> On the other hand: The main idea is great. PSc should have the oportunity to
> be uniqe.
> I also think they are too cheap, if the point based system (100) is used.
> My question is: How can I prevent my players from taking every edge they
> want, and simply paying of the points with minor flaws. Until now, I have
> disalowed the rules, but I'm not happy with that.

You could set a limit to the number of points players may spend on edges,
or may gain from flaws, 6 points sounds like a nice number -- it shouldn't
put any edges out of reach, but stops players from taking them all.
Alternatively, just say "no" if they take too many, in your opinion,
without setting a definite limit. This should reduce the need to make them
more expensive.

> Are there any houserules yet?

Probably, but not many I'm aware of. A few days ago I took a serious look
at the list, altered a few costs, and removed some edges and flaws from
the game altogether.
Bonus Attribute: costs is 2, not 1, like when buying an Attribute with
Building Points
Adrenaline Surge: doesn't exist -- the reason is that I apply the Rule of
Six to one initiative die anyway.
Allergy: use the rules from SRII instead
High Pain Tolerance: cost is boxes resisted x 3, since this is basically
the same as the physad power
High School Education: removed, I assume PCs have finished high school
Technical School Education: cost is 2, like College Education
Addiction: doestn't exist; sure, you can be addicted if you want, but
you're not getting any points for it
Day Job: doesn't exist, as it's too complx to integrate in the game just
by taking a flaw
Extra Contact: doesn't exist -- you buy your extra contacts from your
starting cash as per SRII, not our Building Points

BTW, Loki had a good example the other day of what can happen to a player
if (s)he takes combinations of flaws. What was it again... Dark Secret,
Amnesia, and a few others. If your players are prone to doing that, use it
against them -- give them some kind of enemy that fits in with those flaws
exactly. Make them pay for their habit of taking lots of flaws just to get
some points.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Wat u bent, dat is niets anders dan de herinnering aan uzelf.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 20
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Edges & flaws
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 11:37:34 GMT
Matthias Kerzel writes

> What do you think of the edges & flaws rules. I think they are too mighty.
Depends. I have been letting folks use them pretty much as they like
and haven't had too many problems. There are a few you have to watch
(eg bonus attribute and the points based building system which are
not designed to be compatible) but as long as flawsíges things
should not be too bad.

> Lowering target numbers for certain skills or being able to cast spells (for
> physical adeps) will surely unbalance the game.
Be very careful of what skills people can get a -1 off. Ban anything
combat related.
As to the spell casting talents, well you get one spell and roll
force plus magic pool so unless you buy a pile of sorcery skill you
arn't even going to be good with it. Steve Kenson who wrote the rules
intended these edges for non magician characters to gain minor magic
(more minor adepts) but the editorial department mucked up. Generally
though they are compatible anyway, not force of that innate spell
will usually be pretty low though initiated physical adepts and
improved invisibility could do with care.

> On the other hand: The main idea is great. PSc should have the oportunity to
> be uniqe.
> I also think they are too cheap, if the point based system (100) is used.
> My question is: How can I prevent my players from taking every edge they
> want, and simply paying of the points with minor flaws. Until now, I have
> disalowed the rules, but I'm not happy with that.
> Are there any houserules yet?
>
The points based system is fine for most characters, building a
sammie with points that is as good as a priorities built one will
cost you 100 points.
Things to be wary of however are metahunmanity which is costed fairly
comparable to the 'more metahumans' optional rule, and very low cash
characters, eg shamen and physical adepts that would normally have
taken money D can be built as good as the priority system for about
85 to 90 points though as such characters are not normally the
'hardest / most powerful' anyway a bit of GM care should be enough.

On flaws. force flaws equals edges in points and if something is not
really a flaw don't allow it! particularly beware allergies that the
characters has no intention of having problems with, cyberware
allergic systems and eagle shamen etc.

> P.s. Please excuse my english. It's not my native
language. >

Your English is fine! There are folks on this list who supposedly
speak it as a native language that come out worse. But don't
anyone make accusations as there is that nice smelly Carp someplace :)

Mark
Message no. 21
From: "Robert G. Brook" <rgb1@**.MSSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Edges & flaws
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 09:09:21 -0500
On Wed, 28 May 1997, Matthias Kerzel wrote:

> My question is: How can I prevent my players from taking every edge they
> want, and simply paying of the points with minor flaws. Until now, I have
> disalowed the rules, but I'm not happy with that.
> Are there any houserules yet?
>
I simply limit my players to some arbitrary "absolute" value of
edges/flaws. Under this system, edges and flaws count equally towards
this imposed limit, but thier building point costs remain unchanged. For
example, my current campaign limits characters to 12 total points of
combined edges/flaws. This means a character could have +6 pts of edges
and -6 pts of flaws, +8 pts of edges and -4 pts of flaws, or any other
combination of edges and flaws whose absolute point values sum to 12.
Keep in mind that this in no way alters the normal building point costs of
the edges and flaws. Sure, a character can take 12 pts of edges, but he
won't be able to take any flaws to counter the cost...

So far this has worked great. BTW, I chose 12 pts to allow for a specific
character one of my players thought up. I don't think I would ever allow
more than 12. In fact, future campaigns might limit edges/flaws to 8 or
10 points.

Glenn
Message no. 22
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Edges & flaws
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 10:54:55 -0400
>What do you think of the edges & flaws rules. I think they are too mighty.
>Lowering target numbers for certain skills or being able to cast spells (for
>physical adeps) will surely unbalance the game.

I agree with the target numbers, and Steve Kenson has said that the way he
wrote the rules, the Magical talents were NOT meant to go to already magical
characters. FASA editors apparently dropped the ball on that (American
expression meaning messed it up)

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 23
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Edges & flaws
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 17:03:05 -0700
---Gurth wrote:
>
> BTW, Loki had a good example the other day of what can happen to a
player
> if (s)he takes combinations of flaws. What was it again... Dark
Secret,
> Amnesia, and a few others. If your players are prone to doing that,
use it
> against them -- give them some kind of enemy that fits in with those
flaws
> exactly. Make them pay for their habit of taking lots of flaws just
to get
> some points.

I believe you're talking about my reply to Tinner's Evil GM post. Our
group's token munchkin Paul created a character with level three
amnesia, severe phobia of scorpions, severe allergy to scropion venom,
and dark secret.

In turn, what I came up with for his character was that he'd been a
"good-meld" flesh form from a Roach hive in the CalFree State. The
hive was hit by a territorial Scorpion shaman, working in tandem with
some Nova Scorpions. The hive was more or less erradicated, except for
Paul's character who was stung repeatedly and left for dead. Of
course, he survived but didn't have a clue who he was or what had
happened to him.

Also, I should point out all of this was just before the group was
going into Chicago with an almost definite encounter with a Mantis
cabal. EGMG.

Moral of the story, don't take alot of high point flaws and trust your
GM with the character.

===

@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>

Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/

If in your adventures you happen across the skull of a dragon, turn
and leave that place quickly. Whatever killed the dragon may still be
around.
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
Message no. 24
From: Angel Ramos y David Fayes <hansa@****.NET>
Subject: Re: Edges & flaws
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 09:22:04 -0400
At 03:32 PM 28/05/1997 -0400, Smilin' Ted wrote:
>Dbeuhrer wrote:
>
>>You can also limit the number of points a player can
>spend on edges, and gain from flaws. It's your game, do what feels right to
>you.

I can tell you that our gm give us flaws to each of our characters (6
points in total) and allowed us to choose the edges to compensate these
flaws.
For example my magician character has Mediun allergy to orichaculm,
pacifist and distintive style as flaws; has high concentration, college
education and high friend as edges.
So far we are roleplaying well our characters (The rigger is paraplegic and
then phyad is a blindman).
At first we saw our flaws too restrictive (since they were imposed but with
the right edges you could get along
)
>Absolutely. You can also **create** edges and flaws appropriate to the
>character. Assigning points is a matter of game balance, but in our group,
>players were pretty relaxed about it -- we understood that the price tag for
>a new archetype, edge or flaw was the possibility of GM "adjustment" at some
>later time.
>
You're right pal

The elven mage
Message no. 25
From: Kristling the Weird <kristling@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Edges & flaws
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 12:55:57 -0400
Angel Ramos + David Fayes wrote:
>I can tell you that our gm give us flaws to each of our characters (6
points in total) and allowed us to choose the edges to compensate these
flaws.
For example my magician character has Mediun allergy to orichaculm,
pacifist and distintive style as flaws; has high concentration, college
education and high friend as edges.
So far we are roleplaying well our characters (The rigger is paraplegic
and
then phyad is a blindman).
At first we saw our flaws too restrictive (since they were imposed but
with
the right edges you could get along)
>Absolutely. You can also **create** edges and flaws appropriate to the
>character. Assigning points is a matter of game balance, but in our group,
>players were pretty relaxed about it -- we understood that the price tag for
>a new archetype, edge or flaw was the possibility of GM "adjustment" at some
>later time.

You're right pal

The elven mage<

A lot of players I know whine about SR not having this or that. As a GM,
I ussually say "Design it, show it to me, and we'll see."

OT, Ever notice SR players tend to have names on the net SR- world
inhabitants might have? Some of us (Gurth and myself) even try to hide
completly behind our nick.

-Kristling The Weird
Relentless Press
Somewhere in Canada.....

Further Reading

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