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Message no. 1
From: Karolusb@***.COM
Subject: Re: Edges & Flaws and a little bit of How magic works.
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 10:42:17 -0500
**Warning this reply gets a little long winded- if you have already decided
I'm a dodering idiot, or aren't in the mood to read a long post that rambles
a tad just move along now. :)* (Oh and while I'm at it it's been a long time
since I slept and have caught so many typos that I have to assume I missed a
bunch- I also snip without warning. You've been warned:)*


Rook wrote:
>
> I had a few problems with several of the Edges and Flaws given in
the
> Companion. I do like the book overall, but here's a few "error's" I found.
>
> Both Bio-Rejection and Sensitive System cost the same for magically active
> characters... I'd suggest raising the point value of Bio-Rejection for
> magicallly active characters to -3. Otherwise only a true role-player
magician
> is ever going to take it.

I disagree entirely, if either were to be changed I'd say bio rejection
should be lowered for mages. Why? Remember Rikki the rat shamen, and his
stint in an omega class prison- if he had sensitve system he would have lost
twice the magic points, with bio-rejection he would have been unable to
accept the cyberware and have lost no essence (though if the doctors were
determined enough he may have died). From a semi munchkin perspective I
could'nt imagine not taking bio rejection, I've played my share of purist
mages and they could all have this flaw without any penalties at all.

>
> Blindness is listed as -6 for everyone except the magically active... for
who
> it is -2 (FASA seems to like that -2 number alot). Now I agree that mages
who
> can still see with astral perception get a break here. But not that much
of a
> break. They can't read a road map, a menu or a street sign with astral
> perception. They can still see a target to hit a spell with, but if that
> target isn't astrally active, it a +2 penalty for the mage. I'd suggest
> changing the point value to -4 for the magically active.

Firstly I dislike like this for it's bad wording, the sorcery adept who
doesn't take astreal perception gets less of a penalty and is completely
useless, obviously ?I would make the lesser cost only for mages w/ astral
sight. Second I have seen in two different places one the main rules and one
awakenings (I think) two different interprretations of astral perception.
One says any action completely in the physical is at +2, the other says that
any action not completely in the astral is +2, if you use the former then the
cost sounds about right, if you use the latter then you give more credence to
the mage hating attitude of the guy who wrote awakenings than I do, and the
point cost is agreeably too low.

On a related note here's my question, if you can be physically blind- and
still cast spells then perhaps the explanation of why cybereyes work the way
they do is invalid, perhaps instead of "you've paid essence" it's you don't
see with your eyes but instead with your soul and so your eyes are irrelevent
(of course then I wouldn't give you your vision mags bonus if they were
electronic, or in cybereyes). On an ever more tangentle note how do you guys
feel about the you can't use astral sight to cast a spell at an invisible
target- it would seem to me, especially considering the grimoire rules for
things like centering (which often requires the use of astral sight), that a
astrally percieving mage should be able to contact on both the physical-
physical front as well as the astral astral front, woulnd't this mean that
invisibility makes you immune to spells cast by dual natured creatures
(dragons aren't so frightening anymore(but great dragons still are)), and
since invis makes it impossible, it's much worse than the normal effect of +1
per success.

>
> Infirm... I cringed when I saw this one. Nice idea... but the point value
> isn't worth what it does to you. Reduce the racial maximum of all three
> physical attributes and all you get is a lousy -1 point value per level of
> reduction! Seems a bit unfair when raising the racial maximum of one
attribute
> one point costs 2 BP. I'd suggest changing it to -2 BP per level of
reduction.
Agreed it's not worth so much I would give 1 point for a -2 to one attribute,
and 2 for a minus 1 to all.


>
> College Education... I'd expand the bonuse to cover Technical Skills, and
> possibly magical skills if the character was magically active. My logic
being
> that Computer is a technical skill, important and commonly used in a high
tech
> world and taught and virtually any college I can think of in RL. The rule
> books also make it clear the many colleges offer degrees in magical skills
now.
> I would raise the point cost to 3 for magically active characters in that
case
> however.

I think you over estimate the quality of colleges, a mage who studied magic
at college knows magic, the bonus represents all the required courses you
take that aren't in your field, thus a bonus when defaulting. I would also
note that computers isn't a common skill, computers is the skill at hacking
and other serious persuits most people in college would learn matrix
ettiquette (what you roll when searching the matrix for easy to find
information), and I don't know that the edge should reflect that (frankly
most people probably use the rating three dedicated system rather than
learning how to do it themselves), if you want to show an exceptional college
education you should do so with you skill selection

>
> Technical School Education is as usefull as College Education, I'd raise
the
> point cost to 2 BP.

From usefullness= cost perspective I agree (from a practical standpoint more
pc's use B/R skills regularly than knowledge skill, yeah physics comes up
occasionally but the rigger is tweaking vehicles all the time, the smart
sammy does all his own custimization (cheaper and harder to trace), but I
don't know that I would change it based on that.

>
> Day Job... a Flaw that pays you money! I think GMs need to be careful to
make
> sure this Flaw really does stay a flaw. I don't have a problem with it
paying
> cash to the character, but I think during character creation the GM and
player
> should work out what the job is, what hours the character has to work and
make
> sure it's going to be a nuissance. Otherwise your just giving the player
free
> cash AND extra BP.

If the GM doesn't use your flaws who will? This should be treated no more
carefully than any other GM regulated flaw- like Enemies.

>
> Extra Enemy... nice idea again... but only one point for a rank 5 enemy...

One of read this wrong, I'm not sure if was you or me though (if it was me
your right that sucks).


>
> Police record... great idea... but it needs to be clarified I think. It's
> starts of fine... yes corps everywhere have a copy of your record (doesn't
mean
> they give a flying frag, hey so you nuked the competitions research lab,
what
> do they care, maybe they'll give you a nice shiny ribbon for doing it!).
Then
> it says every LoneStar officer will recognize you on sight. Excuse me! Do
all
> LoneStar officers have photographic memories and do these officers make it
a
> habit to memories every criminal record in the world... I don't think so.
> Make a reputation check or some such and if the officer gets a success...
then
> the recognize you. Otherwise your just another joe citizen to them (still
> doesn't mean they won't harass you though ;). Also... LoneStar doesn't
give a
> frag about you if you are outside their jurisdiction, in other words, as
soon
> as you step into an area they aren't contracted to protect, the ignore you
> (unles you just geeked a few of their buddies of course, then all bets are
> off!). Second, it says you can't ever legally get a SIN... say what! I
would
> think that if you have criminal record you have been given a SIN (how do
you
> think they organize all those records and tag them too you). As long as
you
> keep that SIN, report in to your parole officer and don't get caught
breaking
> the law... they leave you alone (mostly). If you ditch the SIN you don't
have
> to chat with the parole officer anymore... but now they've got a warrant
out
> for your arrest and the next time a LoneStar officer recognizes you the are
> going to do a tad more than harass you! That at least is how I'd play that
> flaw.

One of several flaws I though should be variable cost- they assume there is
only one state of a police record, I disagree. My mother has a police
record- she doesn't get hassled by cops for one minor thing that she was
found not guilty of anyway- but they still have her prints on file, their
needs to be various levels of compromise and since they didn't do it it's up
to us. So I say to the illustrious, the brilliant, the elite, come up with
guidlines for us mere mortals who are too tired to do so for oursleves.
;)

> My ideas for correct the flaws with their Flaws are
> just my 2 nuyen so don't get bent if you disagree.

Hey I say if you dissagree with me you can get bent. (of course I also say
never take anything I say seriously, so there).
Message no. 2
From: Rook <woneal@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Edges & Flaws and a little bit of How magic works.
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 23:25:39 -0005
On 3 Jan 97 at 10:42, Karolusb@***.com wrote:

> **Warning this reply gets a little long winded- if you have already decided
> I'm a dodering idiot, or aren't in the mood to read a long post that rambles a
> tad just move along now. :)* (Oh and while I'm at it it's been a long time
> since I slept and have caught so many typos that I have to assume I missed a
> bunch- I also snip without warning. You've been warned:)*
>
<chuckle> And the above probably goes double for me!
>

> >
> > Both Bio-Rejection and Sensitive System cost the same for magically active
> > characters... I'd suggest raising the point value of Bio-Rejection for
> > magicallly active characters to -3. Otherwise only a true role-player
> > magician is ever going to take it.
>
> I disagree entirely, if either were to be changed I'd say bio rejection
> should be lowered for mages. Why? Remember Rikki the rat shamen, and his
> stint in an omega class prison- if he had sensitve system he would have lost
> twice the magic points, with bio-rejection he would have been unable to accept
> the cyberware and have lost no essence (though if the doctors were determined
> enough he may have died). From a semi munchkin perspective I could'nt imagine
> not taking bio rejection, I've played my share of purist mages and they could
> all have this flaw without any penalties at all.

Hmmm.... here I think our mileage has varied. In the groups I've played with
mages made used of cyberware and bioware. Cybereyes with optical magnification
and visual enhancements such as low-light and thermograph. After all... a mage
can't hit with a spell that which he can't see. Cerebral Boost, Mnemonic
Enhancement, Trauma Damper, Retinal Modifications (which in our group have been
ruled a form of bioware, but that's strictly a house rule), and sometimes the
Encephalon were all popular choices. It sounds like in your group mages avoid
cyber/bioware so the Flaws wouldn't be much of a real flaw. In the groups I
game with the reverse is true, so I guess it's purely a matter of tailoring
rules to fit playing style. I do see you point though.


<snip original complaint of the low BP value of Blindness for the magically active>

>
> Firstly I dislike like this for it's bad wording, the sorcery adept who
> doesn't take astreal perception gets less of a penalty and is completely
> useless, obviously ?I would make the lesser cost only for mages w/ astral
> sight. Second I have seen in two different places one the main rules and one
> awakenings (I think) two different interprretations of astral perception.
> One says any action completely in the physical is at +2, the other says that
> any action not completely in the astral is +2, if you use the former then the
> cost sounds about right, if you use the latter then you give more credence to
> the mage hating attitude of the guy who wrote awakenings than I do, and the
> point cost is agreeably too low.

To be frank I'm too tired and stressed at the moment to track down those
rules, prehaps someone else will be kind enough to post them. However, I can
sum up how the rule has been interpreted in the groups I game with. Whenever a
mage attempts to target something using only astral senses (ie. an astrally
projecting mage) a +2 target number penalty is applied if the target is NOT
astrally active in some way. By "astrally active" I mean having an active
presense on the astral, such as an active foci, dual natured creatures,
astrally perceiving magicians, etc. That, added with the fact that the blind
magician would not be able to read street signs, notes, etc. (ie. meet me at
the corner of 5th and Harbor... oh darn... excuse me sir could you tell me....
;) would most likely be a constant problem. Hence my suggestion for the higher
BP value. Even without the TN penalty I would still argue it should have a
higher BP value due to the sheer annoyance of it. I say that out of some
personal experience, since without my glasses I am almost legally blind.
Although I can see shapes and detect movement... I cannot read, identify a
friend in a crowd... or even if they are the only person in a room. I have
literally walked right past people and not seen them because I did not have my
glasses on.

>
> On a related note here's my question, if you can be physically blind- and
> still cast spells then perhaps the explanation of why cybereyes work the way
> they do is invalid, perhaps instead of "you've paid essence" it's you don't
> see with your eyes but instead with your soul and so your eyes are irrelevent

I'm not sure I follow you here. As I understand it (or think I do), astral
perception doesn't rely on physical vision at all. You are seeing with the
"mind's eye" in popular argot. Cybereyes are a matter of the mage seeing with
physical vision, not astral so I don't follow how the two inter-relate in this
case. But then perhaps I'm just being dense.

> (of course then I wouldn't give you your vision mags bonus if they were
> electronic, or in cybereyes). On an ever more tangentle note how do you guys
> feel about the you can't use astral sight to cast a spell at an invisible
> target- it would seem to me, especially considering the grimoire rules for

Why not... none of the invisibility spells I'm aware of affect the astral.
They make you physically invisible in some way... but they do nothing to hide
you on the astral. Astral concealment is either impossible (according to most)
or possible only with Masking or Astral Static & Background Count (according to
a smaller group). An object or person may have been rendered invisible to
mundane eyes... but if you can perceive astrally, so far as I understand it,
they are still quiet visible.


<snip original comments on the College Education Edge>
>
> I think you over estimate the quality of colleges, a mage who studied magic at
> college knows magic, the bonus represents all the required courses you take
> that aren't in your field, thus a bonus when defaulting. I would also note
> that computers isn't a common skill, computers is the skill at hacking and
> other serious persuits most people in college would learn matrix ettiquette
> (what you roll when searching the matrix for easy to find information), and I
> don't know that the edge should reflect that (frankly most people probably use
> the rating three dedicated system rather than learning how to do it
> themselves), if you want to show an exceptional college education you should
> do so with you skill selection
>
Hmm... I disagree. My view point was this: I interpreted the Edge to
represent a variety of courses taken, usually in the first two years of college
which provide the character with a well rounded education. Since computers are
so wide spread (in fact many colleges now require a laptop computer be owned by
each student) and basic computer skills (copying files, deleting files, using
basic operating systems, etc.) are also being taught as part of most curriculums
(this based on what I know of my local Community College which is hardly a
sterling example of higher education, but they do what they can), it seemed to
me that there was a good case for the inclusion of Biotech and Computer.
Electronics... well... it's the way this skills happened to be grouped. Now
since this bonus is only for when defaulting to either an attribute or another
skill, I doubt any character in their right mind is going to be using it for
Decking or the like. But it would be handy if say a sammie needed to make a
copy of a file, delete a directory, etc.; all of which ARE computer skills.
Even if most of us on this mailing list would take those skills for granted. In
essence, I reasoned that someone with a college education would be more likely
to beable to "wing it" when operating a computer or performing simple first aid
than someone who did not have such education. That then was my logic, and why I
suggested the inclusion of Techincal Skills for the bonus.


> > Extra Enemy... nice idea again... but only one point for a rank 5 enemy...
>
> One of read this wrong, I'm not sure if was you or me though (if it was me
> your right that sucks).
So far as I can tell... I read them correctly. All it says in the Flaw
description is you get one extra enemy, after which it refers you to p71 where
the discussion of Enemies begins. In that section, the only discussion of an
enemies rank is based on the amount of resources you started with. So, if you
had 1 mil in nuyen you start the game with 1 rank 5 enemy. Take the extra
enemy Flaw and you now have TWO rank 5 enemies gunning for you. It was made
clear in the text and example however that each "enemy" may actually be several
people, the charactistic points don't have to be spent on one individual.... but they
can be. Either way, that's a lot of guns pointed in your direction.


Oh, and here's one I forgot to include in my original post. In the Magical
Edges section, where it discusses special magical talents it states that for 5
BP any character with magical ability can gain the ability to conjure one type
of spirit, be it elemental or a single type of nature spirit. This seemed a
little imbalanced to me. A shaman could effectively become a Heremetic for 20
BP, at least as far as conjuring was concerned. However, for a hermetic to be
able to conjure all the various nature spirits would cost a HUGE number of BP
it all the individual types had to be bought seperately (ie. City Spirit +
Hearth Spirit + Field Spirit just to get all the Spirits of Man for a cost of
15 BP). I'd suggest ruling that instead of individual domains, Nature spirits
may be bought by Spirit type (Spirits of Man, Spirits of the Land, etc.). Thus
all five types could be bought for 25 BP and this is roughly equal to the four
hermetic elementals in cost and such. At least to my mind that seems a more
balanced and reasonable approach.


> > My ideas for correct the flaws with their Flaws are
> > just my 2 nuyen so don't get bent if you disagree.
>
> Hey I say if you dissagree with me you can get bent. (of course I also say
> never take anything I say seriously, so there).

<chuckle> It's good to keep a sense of humor about it all, it's only a game
and the point is to have fun, not fight flame wars.

Rook
(woneal@*******.net)

--- When the Man with the Hoe rises up to judge this world after the Silence of the
centuries, let
him not find me lacking in merit.
Message no. 3
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Edges & Flaws and a little bit of How magic works.
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 17:12:31 EST
On Sat, 4 Jan 1997 23:25:39 -0005 Rook <woneal@*******.NET> writes:
<BIG SNIP!>
> Oh, and here's one I forgot to include in my original post.
>In the Magical
>Edges section, where it discusses special magical talents it states that
for 5
>BP any character with magical ability can gain the ability to conjure
one type
>of spirit, be it elemental or a single type of nature spirit. This
seemed a
>little imbalanced to me. A shaman could effectively become a Heremetic
for 20
>BP, at least as far as conjuring was concerned. However, for a hermetic
to be
>able to conjure all the various nature spirits would cost a HUGE number
of BP
>it all the individual types had to be bought seperately (ie. City Spirit
+
>Hearth Spirit + Field Spirit just to get all the Spirits of Man for a
cost of
>15 BP). I'd suggest ruling that instead of individual domains, Nature
spirits
>may be bought by Spirit type (Spirits of Man, Spirits of the Land,
etc.). Thus
>all five types could be bought for 25 BP and this is roughly equal to
the four
>hermetic elementals in cost and such. At least to my mind that seems a
more
>balanced and reasonable approach.
>
Actually, as I recall, there are only four types of Nature Spirits:
Spirits of Man, Spirits of the Land, Spirits of the Waters, and Spirits
of the Sky.

Canthros-the-shapeshifter-mage
Message no. 4
From: Charles Baker <karolusb@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Edges & Flaws and a little bit of How magic works.
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 16:34:24 -0800
Rook wrote:
>
> On 3 Jan 97 at 10:42, Karolusb@***.com wrote:
>
> > **Warning this reply gets a little long winded- if you have already decided
> > I'm a dodering idiot, or aren't in the mood to read a long post that rambles a
> > tad just move along now. :)* (Oh and while I'm at it it's been a long time
> > since I slept and have caught so many typos that I have to assume I missed a
> > bunch- I also snip without warning. You've been warned:)*
> >
> <chuckle> And the above probably goes double for me!
> >
>

> Hmmm.... here I think our mileage has varied. Trauma Damper,
The best piece of mageware ever created.

> It sounds like in your group mages avoid
> cyber/bioware so the Flaws wouldn't be much of a real flaw. In the groups I
> game with the reverse is true, so I guess it's purely a matter of tailoring
> rules to fit playing style. I do see you point though.

Actually every mage in the current group and the last group had some
augmentation, including my own. I just think that they mean that if you
decide your mage isn't going to have a trauma damper(and what mage in
his right mind doesn't) then you get two points, seems fair to me.


>
> <snip original complaint of the low BP value of Blindness for the magically
active>
> Even without the TN penalty I would still argue it should have a
> higher BP value due to the sheer annoyance of it. I say that out of some
> personal experience, since without my glasses I am almost legally blind.
> Although I can see shapes and detect movement... I cannot read, identify a
> friend in a crowd... or even if they are the only person in a room. I have
> literally walked right past people and not seen them because I did not have my
> glasses on.

Here I can agree, I have no idea what I'd do if I lost my glasses,
stumble around and bitch I assume, but they only rate total blindness as
(I think) 5, and if thats the value for absolute uncorrectable blindness
than the relatively limited blindness you get w/ astral perception is
fair. (hey I personally don't think color blindness should even be worth
a point, I think it should be a natural side effect of antural lowlight
vision).

[snip how do mages really see)
>
> I'm not sure I follow you here. As I understand it (or think I do), astral
> perception doesn't rely on physical vision at all. You are seeing with the
> "mind's eye" in popular argot. Cybereyes are a matter of the mage seeing
with
> physical vision, not astral so I don't follow how the two inter-relate in this
> case. But then perhaps I'm just being dense.

Just an odd thearhetical note of no particular value.

[Snip targeting invis]
>
> Why not... none of the invisibility spells I'm aware of affect the astral.
> They make you physically invisible in some way... but they do nothing to hide
> you on the astral. Astral concealment is either impossible (according to most)
> or possible only with Masking or Astral Static & Background Count (according to
> a smaller group). An object or person may have been rendered invisible to
> mundane eyes... but if you can perceive astrally, so far as I understand it,
> they are still quiet visible.

My understanding is that you can see the invisible he's just immune to
your spells- I have never used it and am not gonna start now but for
those who want to look in on it it can be found on p. 130 main rules
under spell targeting.

>
> <snip original (and secondary )comments on the College Education Edge>
> >
> >
> Hmm... I disagree. My view point was this: I interpreted the Edge to
> represent a variety of courses taken, usually in the first two years of college
> which provide the character with a well rounded education. Since computers are
> so wide spread (in fact many colleges now require a laptop computer be owned by
> each student) and basic computer skills (copying files, deleting files, using
> basic operating systems, etc.) are also being taught as part of most curriculums
> (this based on what I know of my local Community College which is hardly a
> sterling example of higher education, but they do what they can), it seemed to
> me that there was a good case for the inclusion of Biotech and Computer.
> Electronics... well... it's the way this skills happened to be grouped. Now
> since this bonus is only for when defaulting to either an attribute or another
> skill, I doubt any character in their right mind is going to be using it for
> Decking or the like. But it would be handy if say a sammie needed to make a
> copy of a file, delete a directory, etc.; all of which ARE computer skills.
> Even if most of us on this mailing list would take those skills for granted. In
> essence, I reasoned that someone with a college education would be more likely
> to beable to "wing it" when operating a computer or performing simple first
aid
> than someone who did not have such education. That then was my logic, and why I
> suggested the inclusion of Techincal Skills for the bonus.

I see your point and I think our fundamental differnce comes in what
falls under the skill- I've played too many role master games where you
had to roll a die to walk across the floor- deleting a file involves
dragging it to the trashcan with your mouse, or something similar, and
does not require a roll, rolls are made for on the fly programming and
hardware setup. I have a computer and certainly have no computer skill,
thats what user friendly environments are for, if my operating system
crashed no amount of sociology and chemistry classes (and I have all my
basic requirements and have never taken a colledge level computer class,
in addition most of the classes my U offers for computers would fall
under matrix ettiquette or merely be subsumed into living in the 21st
century) are going to allow me to whip up a temporary operating system.

>
> Oh, and here's one I forgot to include in my original post. In the Magical
> Edges section, where it discusses special magical talents it states that for 5
> BP any character with magical ability can gain the ability to conjure one type
> of spirit, be it elemental or a single type of nature spirit. This seemed a
> little imbalanced to me. A shaman could effectively become a Heremetic for 20
> BP, at least as far as conjuring was concerned. However, for a hermetic to be
> able to conjure all the various nature spirits would cost a HUGE number of BP
> it all the individual types had to be bought seperately (ie. City Spirit +
> Hearth Spirit + Field Spirit just to get all the Spirits of Man for a cost of
> 15 BP). I'd suggest ruling that instead of individual domains, Nature spirits
> may be bought by Spirit type (Spirits of Man, Spirits of the Land, etc.). Thus
> all five types could be bought for 25 BP and this is roughly equal to the four
> hermetic elementals in cost and such. At least to my mind that seems a more
> balanced and reasonable approach.

That would work for me, I think the real limit to that edge is the one
spirit thing, which screws the hermetic even more, but just makes it too
expensive. (a physad who can summon watchers though, now thats got
potential)

>
> > > My ideas for correct the flaws with their Flaws are
> > > just my 2 nuyen so don't get bent if you disagree.
> >
> > Hey I say if you dissagree with me you can get bent. (of course I also say
> > never take anything I say seriously, so there).
>
> <chuckle> It's good to keep a sense of humor about it all, it's only a
game
> and the point is to have fun, not fight flame wars.
>

I wish more people had your atttude about my sense of humor, it's
amazing how easy it is to offend people, even the ones who you warn in
advance and say that they won't be offended.
Message no. 5
From: Rook <woneal@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Edges & Flaws and a little bit of How magic works.
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 19:43:00 -0005
On 5 Jan 97 at 17:12, John E Pederson wrote:

> >15 BP). I'd suggest ruling that instead of individual domains, Nature
> spirits
> >may be bought by Spirit type (Spirits of Man, Spirits of the Land,
> etc.). Thus
> >all five types could be bought for 25 BP and this is roughly equal to
> the four
> >hermetic elementals in cost and such. At least to my mind that seems a
> more
> >balanced and reasonable approach.
> >
> Actually, as I recall, there are only four types of Nature Spirits:
> Spirits of Man, Spirits of the Land, Spirits of the Waters, and Spirits
> of the Sky.
>
> Canthros-the-shapeshifter-mage

Pick up a copy of either Tir na nOg or Awakenings. Spirits of the Fiery
Firmament, the fifth grouping of Nature spirits were first presented in Tir na
nOg. Awakenings makes reference to them but I don't believe they repeat the
rules there.


Rook
(woneal@*******.net)

--- When the Man with the Hoe rises up to judge this world after the Silence of the
centuries, let
him not find me lacking in merit.
Message no. 6
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Edges & Flaws and a little bit of How magic works.
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 21:35:23 EST
On Sun, 5 Jan 1997 19:43:00 -0005 Rook <woneal@*******.NET> writes:
>On 5 Jan 97 at 17:12, John E Pederson wrote:
>
>> >15 BP). I'd suggest ruling that instead of individual domains,
Nature
>> spirits
>> >may be bought by Spirit type (Spirits of Man, Spirits of the Land,
>> etc.). Thus
>> >all five types could be bought for 25 BP and this is roughly equal to
>> the four
>> >hermetic elementals in cost and such. At least to my mind that seems
a
>> more
>> >balanced and reasonable approach.
>> >
>> Actually, as I recall, there are only four types of Nature Spirits:
>> Spirits of Man, Spirits of the Land, Spirits of the Waters, and
Spirits
>> of the Sky.
>>
>> Canthros-the-shapeshifter-mage
>
> Pick up a copy of either Tir na nOg or Awakenings. Spirits of
>the Fiery
>Firmament, the fifth grouping of Nature spirits were first presented in
Tir na
>nOg. Awakenings makes reference to them but I don't believe they repeat
the
>rules there.
>
>
Shoot. No, the rules for them were not repeated in Awakenings...Now I
feel stupid. I didn't realize the Fiery Firmament was considered a nature
spirit...I assumed (wrongly) that it was some way for a shaman to summon
fire elementals <sheepish grin> This means that there's at least one more
book I'm going to have to get, just for magic rules:( (more than that,
actually:(

Oh, well. I've got money to burn at the moment:)

Canthros-the-shapeshfiter-mage
Message no. 7
From: Rook <woneal@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Edges & Flaws and a little bit of How magic works.
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 07:19:40 -0005
On 4 Jan 97 at 16:34, Charles Baker wrote:

(Note: For those who don't know, all refereneces I make to "the black book"
are references to the 2nd Edition Shadowrun rule book.)

> > Hmmm.... here I think our mileage has varied. Trauma Damper,
> The best piece of mageware ever created.

One of them, though hardly necessary. Their great for combat mages but if you
play a mage detective or a very subtle mage (like a cat burglar mage) a Trauma
Damper is hardly worth the expense. Mnemonic Enhancement -- 4 is quite useful
if you plan to make extensive use of your magical theory or any other knowledge
skill (+2 dice) and probably does a much better job a simulating a college
education than the College Education edge. Cerebral Boost is handy for those
trips into the Astral as well as making your character more perceptive.
Synaptic Accelerator isn't bad for mages who need a bit more speed. I'm sure
we could go on with quite a list of options in bioware and cyberware that are
of use to a mage. The trick is figuring out which options are useful to your
mage.


> Actually every mage in the current group and the last group had some
> augmentation, including my own. I just think that they mean that if you
> decide your mage isn't going to have a trauma damper(and what mage in
> his right mind doesn't) then you get two points, seems fair to me.

Perhaps, except that Sensitivity doesn't preclude cyberware, and in the case
of cultured bioware, there is no penalty. Bio-rejection removes any
possibility of ever having either sort of augmentation. Because of that single
major differance I thought the two should have had a different point value for
the magically active instead of the flat -2 BP given for both.



> [Snip targeting invis]
> >
> > Why not... none of the invisibility spells I'm aware of affect the
> > astral.
> > They make you physically invisible in some way... but they do nothing to
> > hide you on the astral. Astral concealment is either impossible (according
> > to most) or possible only with Masking or Astral Static & Background Count
> > (according to a smaller group). An object or person may have been rendered
> > invisible to mundane eyes... but if you can perceive astrally, so far as I
> > understand it, they are still quiet visible.
>
> My understanding is that you can see the invisible he's just immune to
> your spells- I have never used it and am not gonna start now but for
> those who want to look in on it it can be found on p. 130 main rules
> under spell targeting.

I found the rule you were referring to and I was a bit surprised by it. It
seems to contradict other rules presented elsewhere. If that rule were correct
then an Astrally projecting mage could not attack a foci since according to the
rule "a magician cannot target using astral perception" to paraphrase it. I
think we just found another FASA boo-boo <chuckle>. I think it becomes obvious
that the rule you mentioned is in error when compared to the more detailed
discussion of spell targeting on p149 & 150 of the black book. Particularly
where it talks about opening the magicians sense to the astral to synchronize
the spells energies with the aura of the target.


> > <snip a whole bunch of previous comments on the College Education Edge>
>
> I see your point and I think our fundamental differnce comes in what
> falls under the skill- I've played too many role master games where you

I think you've got an important point there and it gave me an idea, I'll
elaborate on it a little further down.

> had to roll a die to walk across the floor- deleting a file involves
> dragging it to the trashcan with your mouse, or something similar, and
> does not require a roll, rolls are made for on the fly programming and

<sigh> So I'm a dinosaur who still likes using DOS... I also know how to
write various kinds of batch files, which while technically programming, hardly
make me a programmer much less a hacker. If I recall the Matrix rules for SR
(whether you use the one in the black book or VR 2.0, and decking is NOT my
forte') copying a file or deleting one do require skill tests. I wouldn't even
allow someone defaulting to an attribute to write a program on the fly, college
education or not.

<snip remaind of comments regarding computer skills>

Okay I got to thinking about what you said regarding what's included in a
college education. And the more I thought about it the broader that definition
got. I came to realize that it all depends on why you went to college and what
you majored in. So... then came an idea. How about this option: when the
edge is taken the player selects any two skill groups, say Knoledge and
Technical or perhaps Vehicle and B/R. The character then gets the bonus to
these two skill groups only. In other words if someone chose Combat and
Physical skills, perhaps they are building a character that went to college on
a military scholarship... or Physical and Social for a Athletic scholarship...
and so on. The point cost is 2 BP, same as for Technical Education and
basically the two are merged, Technical Education becoming just another option
under College Education (in this case Technical and B/R skills). It's not a
perfect system but without doing a major rewrite of the rules I think it works
fairly well.


<snip original rant about Magical Conjuring Edge>
>
> That would work for me, I think the real limit to that edge is the one
> spirit thing, which screws the hermetic even more, but just makes it too
> expensive. (a physad who can summon watchers though, now thats got
> potential)

Indeed... of course this assumes FASA isn't planning on annoucing the
existance of any new Elementals anytime soon... like the elusive Wood Elemental
or the Metal Elemental or Light, Ice & Sand Elementals. Now if they did
something like that... that would change things. Course that's assuming such
things exists... <grin>


Back to the Extra Enemy flaw... I think I came up with a simple solution to
it. I was comparing the Extra Enemy (p32) flaw to the Hunted flaw (p33) and
then looking at the rules for Enemies. Basically the two flaws seem to
duplicated each other. The Enemy you get with the Extra Enemy flaw (and this
assumes you had high resources) and the enemy you get with the Hunted flaw
aren't any different. They are both created by the GM in the exact same way
and both are just as hard to get rid of. So here's what I concluded. The
Enemy you get with the Extra Enemy flaw is a Rank 1 enemy, basically the
reverse of a Level 1 contact (which costs 1 BP). I thought treating it that
way had a nice symetry to it. If you wanted to risk a more powerful enemy, go
for the Hunted flaw and have fun.


Seems like everytime I pickup the Companion I find more flaws in it (honestly,
I do like the book, it has some great stuff in it, but I think the FASA
editorial dept. needs to be THWAPed a few times :). Here's
two more I found this past weekend.

First, I was looking over the rules for Shapeshifters which looked pretty good
and very interesting until I noticed one thing. No remarks about how much
Essence the PC shapeshifter has. This might seem an odd question to raise
until you look at the stats for shapeshifters in the black book, p234. All
shapeshifters are listed as having an Essence of 8. Now what really bugs me
about this is the fact that a magician has a starting Magic attribute equal to
their Essence. If a shapeshifter mage with an essence of 8 isn't scary enough
for you, think about a shapeshifter physad... and if that don't give you
nightmares, think about a shapeshifter physical mage. I would rule that
shapeshifters with magical talent still only get a Magic Attribute of 6, but
FASA should have covered this in the rules. I can just see the munchkins
plotting now...

The next problem I ran across (so far) is in the rules for Karma awards. I
liked the rules for the Amoral campaign and they worked fine on paper.
However, I and a few friends decided to run a few test characters to see how it
worked in practice. This is what happened. We created characters using the BP
system... and as usual I created an elven mage (I always play elven mages...
it's a thing :). We set the characters inside Bug City as gang members using
the rules for playing gangs (SR Comp p121+). I had very little magical gear to
start with and it looked good. But I tend to get creative with things. I used
the contact rules and learned about a gang rumored to have a stash of goodies.
We hit them in a surprise attack... so far the gang campaign is going great.
Afterwards we went to fence the goods, but instead of going to our usual fence
we contacted a new guy. Here's where the problem came in. First of all prices
for things are way up in Bug City because of the elevated street index. So we
got way more than we normally would have. This is fine since you also need
more cash to buy things. I got a particularly good price because my character
(the mage) used influence on the fence to get him to give us top money and pay
for it in nuyen. The GM rolled the dice and annouced what karma would cost, we
all bought large chunks, 30 points was the average! We stopped the game and
sort of looked at each other and decided this was NOT how FASA intended this
to work. Our solution was to increase the base cost of the karma by whatever
street index the GM thought appropriate. The GM flipped through the section of
Bug City with the adjusted street indexes and guesstimated that the average was
probably about 20. After multipling the karma cost by 20 we refigured our
karma awards, which dropped to an average of 2-3 points each. A little low but
it seemed more in line. My point here is that if you are running a high cash
campaign (for whatever reason) you MUST adjust the cost of karma in an amoral
campaign accordingly or you will have characters getting huge amounts of karma.
I don't really hold FASA responsible for this oversight... it's just one of
those 10% exceptions to the rule.


> >
> > <chuckle> It's good to keep a sense of humor about it all, it's
> > only a game
> > and the point is to have fun, not fight flame wars.
> >
>
> I wish more people had your atttude about my sense of humor, it's
> amazing how easy it is to offend people, even the ones who you warn in
> advance and say that they won't be offended.

You're very welcome :) Besides, my own sense of humor gets rather obtuse at
times.

--
Rook
(woneal@*******.net)

--- When the Man with the Hoe rises up to judge this world after the Silence of the
centuries, let
him not find me lacking in merit.
Message no. 8
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Edges & Flaws and a little bit of How magic works.
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 17:45:00 EST
On Mon, 6 Jan 1997 07:19:40 -0005 Rook <woneal@*******.NET> writes:
>On 4 Jan 97 at 16:34, Charles Baker wrote:
>
<snip>
>
> I found the rule you were referring to and I was a bit
>surprised by it. It
>seems to contradict other rules presented elsewhere. If that rule
>were correct
>then an Astrally projecting mage could not attack a foci since
>according to the
>rule "a magician cannot target using astral perception" to paraphrase
it. I
>think we just found another FASA boo-boo <chuckle>. I think it
>becomes obvious
>that the rule you mentioned is in error when compared to the more
detailed
>discussion of spell targeting on p149 & 150 of the black book.
Particularly
>where it talks about opening the magicians sense to the astral to
synchronize
>the spells energies with the aura of the target.

I'm going to check on that and get back to you...

<snip on College Ed. edge>
><snip original rant about Magical Conjuring Edge>
>>
>> That would work for me, I think the real limit to that edge is the one
>> spirit thing, which screws the hermetic even more, but just makes it
too
>> expensive. (a physad who can summon watchers though, now thats got
>> potential)
>
> Indeed... of course this assumes FASA isn't planning on
>annoucing the
>existance of any new Elementals anytime soon... like the elusive Wood
>Elemental
>or the Metal Elemental or Light, Ice & Sand Elementals. Now if they
>did
>something like that... that would change things. Course that's
>assuming such
>things exists... <grin>

You should check the magical tradition I wrote up a while back. It's
posted at members.aol.com/canthros1/magus.htm

>
> Back to the Extra Enemy flaw... I think I came up with a
>simple solution to
>it. I was comparing the Extra Enemy (p32) flaw to the Hunted flaw (p33)
and
>then looking at the rules for Enemies. Basically the two flaws seem to
>duplicated each other. The Enemy you get with the Extra Enemy flaw (and
this
>assumes you had high resources) and the enemy you get with the Hunted
flaw
>aren't any different. They are both created by the GM in the exact same
way
>and both are just as hard to get rid of. So here's what I concluded.
The
>Enemy you get with the Extra Enemy flaw is a Rank 1 enemy, basically the
>reverse of a Level 1 contact (which costs 1 BP). I thought treating it
that
>way had a nice symetry to it. If you wanted to risk a more powerful
enemy, go
>for the Hunted flaw and have fun.

What you're missing is that you could eventually remove the Extra Enemy
Flaw, ie you have the guy cacked:) If you read closely, you'll notice
that the Hunted flaw states that you will NEVER remove that flaw. The
death of the original enemy simply spawns the birth of a new enemy, at
the same rank as the previous one. That could get you into deep drek, if
you get play that long. I had just assumed, however, that the extra enemy
was considered a Level 1. I don't believe that it's ever really stated in
the book.

>
>
> Seems like everytime I pickup the Companion I find more flaws
>in it (honestly,
>I do like the book, it has some great stuff in it, but I think the
>FASA
>editorial dept. needs to be THWAPed a few times :). Here's
>two more I found this past weekend.
>
> First, I was looking over the rules for Shapeshifters which
>looked pretty good
>and very interesting until I noticed one thing. No remarks about how
>much
>Essence the PC shapeshifter has. This might seem an odd question to
>raise
>until you look at the stats for shapeshifters in the black book, p234.
> All
>shapeshifters are listed as having an Essence of 8. Now what really
>bugs me
>about this is the fact that a magician has a starting Magic attribute
>equal to
>their Essence. If a shapeshifter mage with an essence of 8 isn't
>scary enough
>for you, think about a shapeshifter physad... and if that don't give
>you
>nightmares, think about a shapeshifter physical mage. I would rule
>that
>shapeshifters with magical talent still only get a Magic Attribute of
>6, but
>FASA should have covered this in the rules. I can just see the
>munchkins
>plotting now...

I don't see any problem with the Essence of 8, Magic of 8. Shapeshifters
are simply more powerful characters. Their auras more closely aligned
with the magical energies of astral space (it's the reason they have all
the neat powers). They can never use cyberware...although bioware could
be a different story. (If you do allow shifters to use Bioware, I would
suggest going with the rules as listed for magically active characters in
Shadowtech, even if they're not adepts/magicians or you don't normally
apply that rule) Honestly, I think the shapers are weaker in the current
incarnation than they were in the black book write-up, though they are
harder to spot amongst the waves of humanity. Personally, I am going to
use an amalgam of the original stuff (mostly the distinguishing
appearances, etc) and the new stuff. It'll certainly be more "balanced"
than the house rules I've been using (which you can look at and judge if
you want, I don't care). Basically, Shifters get big bonuses (regen,
animal form, dual nature) but htey also get big disadvantages
(allergy/vulnerability to silver, bestial nature, can't have citizenship,
dual nature-it's a two-edged sword, after all), and because of that,
they're balanced. Sure, the munchkins will plot. The munchies will always
plot. I've had to put a limit on the number of allergies to keep guys
from making troll cyber-monsters with straight sixes BEFORE modifiers.
Play it how you want, but I don't see it as an error, IMO.

> The next problem I ran across (so far) is in the rules for
>Karma awards. I
>liked the rules for the Amoral campaign and they worked fine on paper.
>However, I and a few friends decided to run a few test characters to see
how it
>worked in practice. This is what happened. We created characters using
the BP
>system... and as usual I created an elven mage (I always play elven
mages...
>it's a thing :). We set the characters inside Bug City as gang members
using
>the rules for playing gangs (SR Comp p121+). I had very little magical
gear to
>start with and it looked good. But I tend to get creative with things.
I used
>the contact rules and learned about a gang rumored to have a stash of
goodies.
>We hit them in a surprise attack... so far the gang campaign is going
great.
>Afterwards we went to fence the goods, but instead of going to our usual
fence
>we contacted a new guy. Here's where the problem came in. First of all
prices
>for things are way up in Bug City because of the elevated street index.
So we
>got way more than we normally would have. This is fine since you also
need
>more cash to buy things. I got a particularly good price because my
character
>(the mage) used influence on the fence to get him to give us top money
and pay
>for it in nuyen. The GM rolled the dice and annouced what karma would
cost, we

Why in the name of whatever god you follow did you want nuyen for? The
CZ's on a barter system, nuyen just isn't very useful, as I recall.
Besides, they'd be using UCAS dollars anyway:) My point is this: the only
way you make real money in Bug City would be payment from an outside
source. My impression was that no-one iside bothers with it anymore, it's
just not worth anything.

>all bought large chunks, 30 points was the average! We stopped the game
and
>sort of looked at each other and decided this was NOT how FASA intended
this
>to work. Our solution was to increase the base cost of the karma by
whatever
>street index the GM thought appropriate. The GM flipped through the
section of
>Bug City with the adjusted street indexes and guesstimated that the
average was
>probably about 20. After multipling the karma cost by 20 we refigured
our
>karma awards, which dropped to an average of 2-3 points each. A little
low but
>it seemed more in line. My point here is that if you are running a high
cash
>campaign (for whatever reason) you MUST adjust the cost of karma in an
amoral
>campaign accordingly or you will have characters getting huge amounts of
karma.
>I don't really hold FASA responsible for this oversight... it's just one
of
>those 10% exceptions to the rule.

Granted. I doubt that the ruling had even been made with Bug City in
mind...

Please understand that I'm not trying to start flaming anyone, but I just
find myself unable to understand the problem you've had with some of
these rules...

Canthros-the-shapshifter-mage
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/index.html
Message no. 9
From: Charles Baker <karolusb@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Edges & Flaws and a little bit of How magic works.
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 06:26:57 -0800
Rook wrote:
>
> On 4 Jan 97 at 16:34, Charles Baker wrote:
>
> (Note: For those who don't know, all refereneces I make to "the black
book"
> are references to the 2nd Edition Shadowrun rule book.)
>
> > > Hmmm.... here I think our mileage has varied. Trauma Damper,
> > The best piece of mageware ever created.
>
> One of them, though hardly necessary. The trick is figuring out which
options are useful to your
> mage.
>

My logic is based on the fact that any of the other effects can be
replicated by a spell, (detection for mnemonic, health for init etc.)
but magic cannot effect drain, and this can.

> Perhaps, except that Sensitivity doesn't preclude cyberware, and in the case
> of cultured bioware, there is no penalty. Bio-rejection removes any
> possibility of ever having either sort of augmentation. Because of that single
> major differance I thought the two should have had a different point value for
> the magically active instead of the flat -2 BP given for both.

Fundamental disagreement again, much like an eagle shamen, you could get
it but you won't, and the guy with full bio-rejection can't get cyber
against his will.

> > > <snip a whole bunch of previous comments on the College Education
Edge>
> >
> <sigh> So I'm a dinosaur who still likes using DOS... I also know how
to
> write various kinds of batch files, which while technically programming, hardly
> make me a programmer much less a hacker.

Not so bad really I've made a batchfile in my time, could probably even
whip up a really basic BASIC program if I had to- I don't even know what
C++ is (as to prefering dos, I was never really partial but I wish I had
a copy of DOS 6.0's dosshell- there is just some stuff I can't figure
out in windows.)

>If I recall the Matrix rules for SR
> (whether you use the one in the black book or VR 2.0, and decking is NOT my
> forte') copying a file or deleting one do require skill tests.

When your hacking into a hostile system yes, but when your doing your
homework on your pocket sec no.


>
> <snip remaind of comments regarding computer skills>
>
> Okay I got to thinking about what you said regarding what's included in a
> college education. And the more I thought about it the broader that definition
> got. I came to realize that it all depends on why you went to college and what
> you majored in. So... then came an idea. How about this option: when the
> edge is taken the player selects any two skill groups, say Knoledge and
> Technical or perhaps Vehicle and B/R. The character then gets the bonus to
> these two skill groups only. In other words if someone chose Combat and
> Physical skills, perhaps they are building a character that went to college on
> a military scholarship... or Physical and Social for a Athletic scholarship...
> and so on. The point cost is 2 BP, same as for Technical Education and
> basically the two are merged, Technical Education becoming just another option
> under College Education (in this case Technical and B/R skills). It's not a
> perfect system but without doing a major rewrite of the rules I think it works
> fairly well.

Frankly I like it, I am always (well almost always) for broader and more
open interpretations, this gives the GM and players a lot of leeway, and
better represents the wide variety of college curiculums.

[big elemental snip]

>
> Back to the Extra Enemy flaw... I think I came up with a simple solution to
> it. I was comparing the Extra Enemy (p32) flaw to the Hunted flaw (p33) and
> then looking at the rules for Enemies. Basically the two flaws seem to
> duplicated each other. The Enemy you get with the Extra Enemy flaw (and this
> assumes you had high resources) and the enemy you get with the Hunted flaw
> aren't any different. They are both created by the GM in the exact same way
> and both are just as hard to get rid of. So here's what I concluded. The
> Enemy you get with the Extra Enemy flaw is a Rank 1 enemy, basically the
> reverse of a Level 1 contact (which costs 1 BP). I thought treating it that
> way had a nice symetry to it. If you wanted to risk a more powerful enemy, go
> for the Hunted flaw and have fun.

Sounds more reasonable, (actually the way I thought is was but I am
notorious for only half reading things)

>
> Seems like everytime I pickup the Companion I find more flaws in it
(honestly,
> I do like the book, it has some great stuff in it, but I think the FASA
> editorial dept. needs to be THWAPed a few times :). Here's
> two more I found this past weekend.
>
> First, I was looking over the rules for Shapeshifters which looked pretty
good
> and very interesting until I noticed one thing. No remarks about how much
> Essence the PC shapeshifter has. This might seem an odd question to raise
> until you look at the stats for shapeshifters in the black book, p234. All
> shapeshifters are listed as having an Essence of 8. Now what really bugs me
> about this is the fact that a magician has a starting Magic attribute equal to
> their Essence. If a shapeshifter mage with an essence of 8 isn't scary enough
> for you, think about a shapeshifter physad... and if that don't give you
> nightmares, think about a shapeshifter physical mage. I would rule that
> shapeshifters with magical talent still only get a Magic Attribute of 6, but
> FASA should have covered this in the rules. I can just see the munchkins
> plotting now...

The first thing I came across- (we have a shapeshifter in the party, and
I saw the rules on the FASA page before the book came out) but I think
your showing your age- the magic =essence must be 1st ed. (both myself
and another old SR player argued this and a guy whos only played 2nd ed
pointed out that you get a magic of six - essence loss, it still matters
for things like magical healing . Theirs also the question of enhanced
physical attributes, noramlly a shapeshifter power (I assume that since
they don't mention it it doesn't apply but I hate having to assume that
kinda stuff).

>
> The next problem I ran across (so far) is in the rules for Karma awards. I
> liked the rules for the Amoral campaign and they worked fine on paper.
[snip relevent example]

Ya know I've never held the karma is good belief (proably because I'm
far more a Buddhist then I am a Hippie- karma is neither good nor bad it
just is). And the amoral campaign rules were thrown in to appease the
damn hippies, rather than either make sense or be playable.

> > I wish more people had your atttude about my sense of humor, it's
> > amazing how easy it is to offend people, even the ones who you warn in
> > advance and say that they won't be offended.
>
> You're very welcome :) Besides, my own sense of humor gets rather obtuse at
> times.
>
> --- When the Man with the Hoe rises up to judge this world after the Silence of the
centuries, let
> him not find me lacking in merit.

You know this guy is renowned for patronizing prostitutes how bad can
you be. ;)
Message no. 10
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Edges & Flaws and a little bit of How magic works.
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 14:44:36 +0000
Rook wrote:
> Blindness is listed as -6 for everyone except the magically active...
> for who it is -2 (FASA seems to like that -2 number alot). Now I
> agree that mages who can still see with astral perception get a break
> here. But not that much of a break. They can't read a road map, a
> menu or a street sign with astral > perception. They can still see a
> target to hit a spell with, but if that target isn't astrally active,
> it a +2 penalty for the mage. I'd suggest changing the point value
> to -4 for the magically active.
You are wrong, sorry. SRII, p. 145: "If an astrally perceiving magician
attempts a task based solely in the physical world, an additional +2
target modifier applies to any tests."

And casting a spell is for sure not "solely in the physical world" (if
you doubt that, see p. 139, p. 148 and pp. 149-150 on how spells work).

Sascha
--
+---___---------+------------------------------------+------------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |Things that try to look |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@ | like things often do |
| \___ __/ | Informatik.Uni-Oldenburg.de | look more like things |
|==== \_/ ======|*Wearing hats is just a way of life*| than things. Well known|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | fact. - E.Weatherwax |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 11
From: Charles Baker <karolusb@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Edges & Flaws and a little bit of How magic works.
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 00:15:19 -0800
Sascha Pabst wrote:
>
> Rook wrote:
> > Blindness is listed as -6 for everyone except the magically active...
> > for who it is -2 (FASA seems to like that -2 number alot). Now I
> > agree that mages who can still see with astral perception get a break
> > here. But not that much of a break. They can't read a road map, a
> > menu or a street sign with astral > perception. They can still see a
> > target to hit a spell with, but if that target isn't astrally active,
> > it a +2 penalty for the mage. I'd suggest changing the point value
> > to -4 for the magically active.
> You are wrong, sorry. SRII, p. 145: "If an astrally perceiving magician
> attempts a task based solely in the physical world, an additional +2
> target modifier applies to any tests."
>
> And casting a spell is for sure not "solely in the physical world" (if
> you doubt that, see p. 139, p. 148 and pp. 149-150 on how spells work).
>

Yes and it's the interpretation I use, but Awakening says something
different, that book agrees with what he says.
Message no. 12
From: Ashelock <woneal@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Edges & Flaws and a little bit of How magic works.
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 01:32:00 -0005
On 7 Jan 97 at 14:44, Sascha Pabst wrote:

> Rook wrote:
> > --> but if that target ISN'T astrally active, it's a +2 penalty for the

> You are wrong, sorry. SRII, p. 145: "If an astrally perceiving magician
> attempts a task based solely in the physical world, an additional +2
> target modifier applies to any tests."

I believe that is what I said... perhaps in different words, but what I said
none-the-less.

>
> And casting a spell is for sure not "solely in the physical world" (if
> you doubt that, see p. 139, p. 148 and pp. 149-150 on how spells work).

I think I quoted those rules later in my post.
--

Ashelock
mailto woneal@*******.net

Knowledge has it's greatest value when it is shared.
Message no. 13
From: Ashelock <woneal@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Edges & Flaws and a little bit of How magic works.
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 01:32:00 -0005
On 6 Jan 97 at 17:45, John E Pederson wrote:

> On Mon, 6 Jan 1997 07:19:40 -0005 Rook <woneal@*******.NET> writes:
> >On 4 Jan 97 at 16:34, Charles Baker wrote:
> >
> <snip a bunch of other stuff>

> > Back to the Extra Enemy flaw...
>
> What you're missing is that you could eventually remove the Extra Enemy
> Flaw, ie you have the guy cacked:) If you read closely, you'll notice
> that the Hunted flaw states that you will NEVER remove that flaw. The
> death of the original enemy simply spawns the birth of a new enemy, at
> the same rank as the previous one. That could get you into deep drek, if
> you get play that long. I had just assumed, however, that the extra enemy was
> considered a Level 1. I don't believe that it's ever really stated in the
> book.
I had the same thoughts as you, but read the rules given on killing enemies on
p75. It repeatedly talks about either a normal Enemy surviving miraculously or
of a new enemy taking the dead enemy's place (even bad guys have family,
friends, etc.) With this in mind it seems like 6 one way and a half dozen the
other... either way your screwed. The only sure way to get rid of such an
enemy seems to be to pay karma and role play it as per the rules for
eliminating flaws on p22. That is, you kill the enemy, pay some karma, make
peace with the cosmos... whatever... the enemy is finally gone. Until you torc
off somebody else and it starts all over again (maybe shadowrunning doesn't pay
after all.... ).


<snip original post about shapeshifters>

>
> I don't see any problem with the Essence of 8, Magic of 8. Shapeshifters
> are simply more powerful characters. Their auras more closely aligned
<snip remainder of reply regarding shapeshifters>
Fair enough, if they aren't a problem in your game play'em however fits best.
In the group I play in, a physad starting off with a Magic of 8 (which is almost
like giving 3 free initiate grades) would tip the game a bit out of balance.
Primarily my comment was not on whether or not to allow a PC to start with a
magic of 8, but the fact that it wasn't addressed in the SR Comp and I thought
it should have. However, I'll also point out here, as was pointed out to me in
another post, SRII rules states that you get a flat Magic of 6 - essence loss.
The rule of beginning Magic = Essence is from 1st edition (and I've been
playing this game WAY to long :).


<snip long winded part of what my group did in bug city>
>
> Why in the name of whatever god you follow did you want nuyen for? The
Because as I pointed out in the original post, we were testing the new rules
before using them with our regular characters. We do that. When we get a new
source book we create "test pilot" characters and try the new rules out on them
rather than the characters and campaign we normally play. We tend to make
these "test pilot" character's as munchkin as possible and still be legal, just
to give the rules a good work out, see how they stand up to a "field test" so
to speak. I specifically asked for nuyen because under the Amoral rules all
karma is purchased with nuyen, so.... I think you get it from there.

> CZ's on a barter system, nuyen just isn't very useful, as I recall.
> Besides, they'd be using UCAS dollars anyway:) My point is this: the only way
> you make real money in Bug City would be payment from an outside source. My
> impression was that no-one iside bothers with it anymore, it's just not worth
> anything.
All true.

<snip remainder of comments about adjusting the cost of karma in an amoral/cash
rich campaign>
> >I don't really hold FASA responsible for this oversight... it's just one
> of
> >those 10% exceptions to the rule.
>
> Granted. I doubt that the ruling had even been made with Bug City in
> mind...
Probably not, and why I didn't lay any blame at anyone for it. Like I said,
just one of those things. I pointed it out because my group happened across it
by luck and I thought other GMs might appreciate the info.

>
> Please understand that I'm not trying to start flaming anyone, but I just find
> myself unable to understand the problem you've had with some of these rules...

Hmmm... could it be a differance of opinion... different gaming styles mabye?
--
Ashelock
(woneal@*******.net)

"When the Man with the Hoe rises up to judge this world,
after the Silence of the centuries,
let him not find me lacking in merit."
Message no. 14
From: Ashelock <woneal@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Edges & Flaws and a little bit of How magic works.
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 01:32:00 -0005
On 5 Jan 97 at 6:26, Charles Baker wrote:

> Rook wrote:
> >
> > On 4 Jan 97 at 16:34, Charles Baker wrote:
> >
> > (Note: For those who don't know, all refereneces I make to "the black
book"
> > are references to the 2nd Edition Shadowrun rule book.)
> >
> > > > Hmmm.... here I think our mileage has varied. Trauma Damper,
> > > The best piece of mageware ever created.
> >
> > One of them, though hardly necessary. The trick is figuring out
> > which options are useful to your
> > mage.
> >
> My logic is based on the fact that any of the other effects can be
> replicated by a spell, (detection for mnemonic, health for init etc.)
> but magic cannot effect drain, and this can.

True. And I tend to do the same (as probably does most everyone else). There
is one thing you get with Mnemonic Enhancement 4 you won't get with a spell, +2
dice to all Knowledge skills... including Magical Theory. I tend to do a lot
of magical research :)

<snip my last comments on Bio-rejection, Sensitive System>
> Fundamental disagreement again, much like an eagle shamen, you could get
> it but you won't, and the guy with full bio-rejection can't get cyber
> against his will.

Point taken.



<snip shapeshifter Magic Attribute? comment>
>
> The first thing I came across- (we have a shapeshifter in the party, and
> I saw the rules on the FASA page before the book came out) but I think
> your showing your age- the magic =essence must be 1st ed. (both myself

<chuckle> What's that sonny... I'm a trifle deaf? <grin>

> and another old SR player argued this and a guy whos only played 2nd ed
> pointed out that you get a magic of six - essence loss, it still matters
> for things like magical healing . Theirs also the question of enhanced
> physical attributes, noramlly a shapeshifter power (I assume that since
> they don't mention it it doesn't apply but I hate having to assume that
> kinda stuff).

I checked and your right. From the black book, p45, 2nd column: ".... he
has
a starting Magic Rating of 6. However, the Magic rating is equal to the
character's essence, rounded down. A magician with an essence of 3.75 would
have a magic rating of 3."
Makes me wonder what other changes from 1st to 2nd edition I've never noticed.
Guess sometime this month I'm going to spend some time re-reading the books
<sigh> as if my reading list isn't long enough now.
As for the question of essence affecting magical healing, no question
shapeshifters are going to be the easiest to heal, but then they are also the
least likely to need it, so I guess that balances out.
The way I always interpreted the Enhanced Physical Attributes (in animal form)
power was the bonuses shapeshifters received to their physical attributes in
animal form, which wasn't to be confused with the other Enhanced Physical
Attributes power. Maybe this was another one of those editorial mistakes like
Mike was talking about where the editorial dept. put in a term somewhere for
something there wasn't a term for, and it so happens the term they used meant
something else entirely.


> > The next problem I ran across (so far) is in the rules for Karma
> > awards. I
> > liked the rules for the Amoral campaign and they worked fine on paper.
> [snip relevent example]
>
> Ya know I've never held the karma is good belief (proably because I'm
> far more a Buddhist then I am a Hippie- karma is neither good nor bad it
> just is). And the amoral campaign rules were thrown in to appease the
> damn hippies, rather than either make sense or be playable.

Probably, I was given to understand that the word "karma" literally
translated
means "action", nothing more or less. So karma could be viewed as experience
you get for things you do, regardless of the morality. But yeah... in the West
karma and New Age philosophy put a new spin on it. I just always chalked it up
to a "things get lost in the translation" kind of thing and went on with my
life.


> > --- When the Man with the Hoe rises up to judge this world after the Silence
> > of the centuries, let him not find me lacking in merit.
>
> You know this guy is renowned for patronizing prostitutes how bad can
> you be. ;)

Okay, I give... who are you talking about? I paraphrased my sig from the poem
"The Man with the Hoe" written by Edwin Markham. (Not that I'm offended, just
curious). As to "how bad can I be..." umm... can I take the fifth?
<chuckle>
Never patronized a prostitute, but I used to party with exotic dancers. Does
that count? <grin>
--
Ashelock
(woneal@*******.net)

"When the Man with the Hoe rises up to judge this world,
after the Silence of the centuries,
let him not find me lacking in merit."
Message no. 15
From: Charles Baker <karolusb@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Edges & Flaws and a little bit of How magic works.
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 05:33:35 -0800
Ashelock wrote:
>
> On 5 Jan 97 at 6:26, Charles Baker wrote:
>
> > My logic is based on the fact that any of the other effects can be
> > replicated by a spell, (detection for mnemonic, health for init etc.)
> > but magic cannot effect drain, and this can.
>
> True. And I tend to do the same (as probably does most everyone else).
There
> is one thing you get with Mnemonic Enhancement 4 you won't get with a spell, +2
> dice to all Knowledge skills... including Magical Theory. I tend to do a lot
> of magical research :)

I'm not so sure, the game effects can be replicated(as listed in the
grim, things like +1 die per 2 success) and the theory can be
replicated, so a spell that enhanced memory (a health spell) could both
in theory and game effect replicate the bioware. I am currently laying
a character who does a similar things with social and knowledge skills
(the social is based on enhanced empathy, the social requires the spell
to be cast at an appropriate library, like magic theory, both are
detection spells)

> As for the question of essence affecting magical healing, no question
> shapeshifters are going to be the easiest to heal, but then they are also the
> least likely to need it, so I guess that balances out.

It also makes them susceptable to spell like reduce attribute(so that
tiger shapeshifter has little defence against reduce wp 4 spell, and it
will probly incapacitate.

> The way I always interpreted the Enhanced Physical Attributes (in animal
form)
> power was the bonuses shapeshifters received to their physical attributes in
> animal form, which wasn't to be confused with the other Enhanced Physical
> Attributes power. Maybe this was another one of those editorial mistakes like
> Mike was talking about where the editorial dept. put in a term somewhere for
> something there wasn't a term for, and it so happens the term they used meant
> something else entirely.

interesting, I had just assumed they were badasses, probly a more
rational way to view it.

> Probably, I was given to understand that the word "karma" literally
translated
> means "action", nothing more or less. So karma could be viewed as
experience
> you get for things you do, regardless of the morality. But yeah... in the West
> karma and New Age philosophy put a new spin on it. I just always chalked it up
> to a "things get lost in the translation" kind of thing and went on with my
> life.

True, but I still don't much like crystal wavers. (

> > You know this guy is renowned for patronizing prostitutes how bad can
> > you be. ;)
>
> Okay, I give... who are you talking about?

Just a pun on hoe :)
Message no. 16
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Edges & Flaws and a little bit of How magic works.
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 21:46:06 EST
On Thu, 9 Jan 1997 01:32:00 -0005 Ashelock <woneal@*******.NET> writes:
>On 6 Jan 97 at 17:45, John E Pederson wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 6 Jan 1997 07:19:40 -0005 Rook <woneal@*******.NET> writes:
>> >On 4 Jan 97 at 16:34, Charles Baker wrote:
>enemy seems to be to pay karma and role play it as per the rules for
>eliminating flaws on p22. That is, you kill the enemy, pay some
>karma, make
>peace with the cosmos... whatever... the enemy is finally gone. Until
>you torc
>off somebody else and it starts all over again (maybe shadowrunning
>doesn't pay
>after all.... ).

Hmmm...I still think the Extra Enemy flaw refers to an extra Level One
Enemy (one Enemy Rating point and 4 Characteristic points). As for the
Hunted/Extra Enemy comparison...I don't think I'd allow the PC to do that
with the Hunted Flaw, certainly not without replacing it with equivalent
flaw(s). I also think the two represent two slightly different
things...the Extra enemy represents someone you torqued off, the "Hunted"
flaw represents a person or group of people you've got after you life,
either for somehting you know, or something you did. The Extra Enemy
could be a ganger whose reputation you messed up. Hunted might represent
that gang boss that's after your head because you wiped out his gang,
ruined his rep, and left him for dead. I think it represents a
substantial difference in motivation and ability. Had more to say about
this, but I got interrupted and forgot it:/

>
<snip>
> Fair enough, if they aren't a problem in your game play'em
>however fits best.
>In the group I play in, a physad starting off with a Magic of 8 (which
>is almost
>like giving 3 free initiate grades) would tip the game a bit out of
>balance.
>Primarily my comment was not on whether or not to allow a PC to start
>with a
>magic of 8, but the fact that it wasn't addressed in the SR Comp and I
>thought
>it should have. However, I'll also point out here, as was pointed out
>to me in
>another post, SRII rules states that you get a flat Magic of 6 -
>essence loss.
>The rule of beginning Magic = Essence is from 1st edition (and I've
>been
>playing this game WAY to long :).

I have to sya that the shapeshiftet physad could very easily become
unbalancing, however, requiring them to BUY the Astral Perception power
instantly ties up the 2 extra Magic points:) As for Magic and Essence...I
thought that was how it worked in SRII? I don't have the black book (my
ignorance is showing again:|

>
><snip long winded part of what my group did in bug city>
>>
>> Why in the name of whatever god you follow did you want nuyen for?
>The
> Because as I pointed out in the original post, we were testing
>the new rules
>before using them with our regular characters. We do that. When we
>get a new
>source book we create "test pilot" characters and try the new rules
>out on them
>rather than the characters and campaign we normally play. We tend to
>make
>these "test pilot" character's as munchkin as possible and still be
>legal, just
>to give the rules a good work out, see how they stand up to a "field
>test" so
>to speak. I specifically asked for nuyen because under the Amoral
>rules all
>karma is purchased with nuyen, so.... I think you get it from there.

Good idea. Wish i'd thought of it
<snip>
>> Please understand that I'm not trying to start flaming anyone, but I
>just find
>> myself unable to understand the problem you've had with some of
>these rules...
>
> Hmmm... could it be a differance of opinion... different
>gaming styles mabye?
>--
>Ashelock
>(woneal@*******.net)

Probably...been too long without a game (almost a month since my last
game, and 4-5 before that)...

Canthros-the-shapeshifter-mage

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