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Message no. 1
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Edges & Flaws : SR compaion character gen genearlly
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 11:37:02 GMT
Gurth writes

> After playing around with the points-based chargen system from the new
> Companion a bit, I decided I like the edges and flaws, but I don't like
> the way you have to balance edges and flaws if you use the standard
> chargen system...
>
i can understand.
Having dismantled the points based system by calculating how much the
standard mundane and full magician humans are worth (12 priority
combinations) the average is remarkably close to 100 (well done!).
Problems start if you allow PC's to be built by priorites then to
swap things about using points as some combinations are worth a few
more points than others, not much but.

> So, by referring to the Building Points Table, it's easy enough to work
> out a way for trading in attribute/skill/force points for edges:
>
> Attribute points x 2 + Skill points + Force points / 2 = Edges points
>
> For example, a character created with 20 Attribute and 40 Skill Points (B
> and A priorities, respectively) spends only 19 points on Attributes and 38
> on skills. This gives him or her a total of 4 Building Points to spend on
> Edges.
>
>
> Likewise, taking flaws can simply give a few Building Points to spend on
> extra stuff per the Building Points Table (if more Flaws than Edges are
> taken, that is).
> Only allowing the player to spend these Building Points on attributes,
> skills, and additional force points is probably the best move.
>
> What do you think?
>
ok baed on my notes above this is probably ok if characters ONLY
trade in points for building points to buy edges, or OMLY take flaws
to provide bonus points. Ie no trade stat point to skills etc.
Further balanced edges and flaws are probably ok.


The other comment is i think human Physads are probably a bit
expensive at 15 points, dispite the apparant disparities in the
different areas, skills, atts, resources and full magician are
balanced.

Metahumans at 10 are fairly comparable to a 'B' rating, you gain 3
free atts (worth 6) so pay 4. With allergies and more metahumans you
can gain so thats fair assuming you don't have such characters join a
metas=A game.

Physad should probably be 15 at least for trolls, but comments.

The other one to watch is don't let anyone take less than 5,000 yen
resources and then spend their starting 3D6 *1000 until fater they
have been paid by a Johnson, else you can get 10 building pints for
5,000 yen, recon on rolling more at startup and not loose much
compared to what you gain, i mean would you rather have 5,000 yen or
10 'startup skill points!' though you might like the latter!


Mark
Message no. 2
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Edges & Flaws : SR compaion character gen genearlly
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 12:36:44 +0100
Mark Steedman said on 11:37/17 Dec 96...

> Problems start if you allow PC's to be built by priorites then to
> swap things about using points as some combinations are worth a few
> more points than others, not much but.
[snip my edges/flaws suggestions]
> ok baed on my notes above this is probably ok if characters ONLY
> trade in points for building points to buy edges, or OMLY take flaws
> to provide bonus points. Ie no trade stat point to skills etc.
> Further balanced edges and flaws are probably ok.

I don't really see much of a problem with someone trading in one attribute
point in order to get 2 building points, then taking a 1-point edge and
using the other BP to get one extra skill point.

> The other one to watch is don't let anyone take less than 5,000 yen
> resources and then spend their starting 3D6 *1000 until fater they
> have been paid by a Johnson, else you can get 10 building pints for
> 5,000 yen, recon on rolling more at startup and not loose much
> compared to what you gain, i mean would you rather have 5,000 yen or
> 10 'startup skill points!' though you might like the latter!

Half the time I don't give the 3D6x1000Y at all -- I'd much rather see a
character start with 154 nuyen than with 12154 nuyen. It gives them much
more of an incentive to actually do something if you tell them they
hardly have enough money to go for a pizza :)

Also, when/if I do let someone roll, if they want to spend that money
they're going to have to roll for availability, and apply the street index
to their purchases.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Nothing's changed. Nothing's right.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 3
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Edges & Flaws : SR compaion character gen genearlly
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 13:22:47 GMT
Gurth writes

> Mark Steedman said on 11:37/17 Dec 96...
>
> > Problems start if you allow PC's to be built by priorites then to
> > swap things about using points as some combinations are worth a few
> > more points than others, not much but.
>
> I don't really see much of a problem with someone trading in one attribute
> point in order to get 2 building points, then taking a 1-point edge and
> using the other BP to get one extra skill point.
>
no the problems start when they note a certain combination of
A,B,C,D,E priorities gives them statistics it would cost 104 odd
building points to make then trades 5 atts to 10 skill points or
whatever and ends with the attributes skills etc of another A,B,C,D,E
combo plus a couple of bonus ones :).
As long as you stick to one system or another things should be fair,
some A,B,C,D,E priority combos may be 'matematically' better (by the
new points system) but if the distrubution does not suit the
character the munchkins building they cannot abuse it.

I just tend to spot these sort of tricks. Theres a big difference
between knowing they exist and fully using them but unfortunately not
everyone agrees (no so much a problem i suspect amongst the denzines
of the list though)

> > The other one to watch is don't let anyone take less than 5,000
yen
> > resources and then spend their starting 3D6 *1000 until fater they
> > have been paid by a Johnson, else you can get 10 building pints for
> > 5,000 yen, recon on rolling more at startup and not loose much
> > compared to what you gain, i mean would you rather have 5,000 yen or
> > 10 'startup skill points!' though you might like the latter!
>
> Half the time I don't give the 3D6x1000Y at all -- I'd much rather see a
> character start with 154 nuyen than with 12154 nuyen. It gives them much
> more of an incentive to actually do something if you tell them they
> hardly have enough money to go for a pizza :)
Good apart from the fact that with the divide by 10 the ones with low
starting resources won't be able to use contacts that might charge
them even 500 - 1,000 yen on the first run because they won't have
enough cash, but if you set the runs to suit easily overcome.

>
> Also, when/if I do let someone roll, if they want to spend that money
> they're going to have to roll for availability, and apply the street index
> to their purchases.
>
Sure, but basic kitting up for the character types that would take
resources D (5,000 yen) generally has a street index of 1 (or less!)
and availability called yawn:), or if fixer does not have item 1 item
2 will do just fine.
Generally only Shamen, gangers and physads (in your 'average' game)
can get away with such low resources, most other folks will want at
least resources C (or points equivalent) for spell locks, cyberware,
more contacts etc. Its another hole to watch out for, plugging it
probably won't change much, although the only folks trying to use it
were probably (dangerous assumption but) afetr a low powered
character so won't gain too badly but.

Mark
Message no. 4
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Edges & Flaws : SR compaion character gen genearlly
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 12:42:39 +0100
Mark Steedman said on 13:22/18 Dec 96...

> no the problems start when they note a certain combination of
> A,B,C,D,E priorities gives them statistics it would cost 104 odd
> building points to make then trades 5 atts to 10 skill points or
> whatever and ends with the attributes skills etc of another A,B,C,D,E
> combo plus a couple of bonus ones :).

If you ask me, that's what happens when players reach for calculators
whenever they get to make characters, and first figure out all the
probabilities and best choices before writing down a single
stat/choice/whatever. I personally make characters by assigning priorities
the way I like them at the time, not caring if my characters would be more
powerful if I switch the skills and attributes priorities around, for
example.

> > Half the time I don't give the 3D6x1000Y at all
>
> Good apart from the fact that with the divide by 10 the ones with low
> starting resources won't be able to use contacts that might charge
> them even 500 - 1,000 yen on the first run because they won't have
> enough cash, but if you set the runs to suit easily overcome.

I don't believe you divide the 3D6x1000 by 10 -- I have always read those
rules as meaning: the character gets money equal to 10% of the Resources
money left, plus 3D6x1000.

> > Also, when/if I do let someone roll, if they want to spend that money
> > they're going to have to roll for availability, and apply the street index
> > to their purchases.
> >
> Sure, but basic kitting up for the character types that would take
> resources D (5,000 yen) generally has a street index of 1 (or less!)
> and availability called yawn:), or if fixer does not have item 1 item
> 2 will do just fine.

I know, but because I view the starting money as what the char has saved
so far when he enters the game, the SI gets applied to any purchases. That
makes some things more accessible, others more difficult. As always,
anyone intent on getting the most out of the money can buy carefully: only
high-availability/high-SI things with the Resources money, and stuff with
SI = 1 or lower with the starting cash...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Nothing's changed. Nothing's right.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 5
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Edges & Flaws : SR compaion character gen genearlly
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 13:21:42 GMT
Gurth writes

> If you ask me, that's what happens when players reach for calculators
> whenever they get to make characters, and first figure out all the
> probabilities and best choices before writing down a single
> stat/choice/whatever. I personally make characters by assigning priorities
> the way I like them at the time, not caring if my characters would be more
> powerful if I switch the skills and attributes priorities around, for
> example.
oh i quite agree, but not all players can be trusted :(, so i pointed
it out.

>
> > > Half the time I don't give the 3D6x1000Y at all
> >
> > Good apart from the fact that with the divide by 10 the ones with low
> > starting resources won't be able to use contacts that might charge
> > them even 500 - 1,000 yen on the first run because they won't have
> > enough cash, but if you set the runs to suit easily overcome.
>
> I don't believe you divide the 3D6x1000 by 10 -- I have always read those
> rules as meaning: the character gets money equal to 10% of the Resources
> money left, plus 3D6x1000.
>
You are quite correct, but if you 'don't hand out the 3D6*1000' then
10% of remaining starting newyen is not very much! my comment was
with reference to yours.

> anyone intent on getting the most out of the money can buy carefully: only
> high-availability/high-SI things with the Resources money, and stuff with
> SI = 1 or lower with the starting cash...
>
or buying 1M yen of dikote, letting it multiply by 10 and then
selling it, even at the *0.3 selling factor and other items, street
indexes you save on anything under street index 3! Not that most
people are going to abuse the intent of the system this way, and most
GM's will rule they flood the market in '....' and drop the street
index.

Mark
Message no. 6
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Edges & Flaws : SR compaion character gen genearlly
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 12:14:23 +0100
Mark Steedman said on 13:21/19 Dec 96...

> You are quite correct, but if you 'don't hand out the 3D6*1000' then
> 10% of remaining starting newyen is not very much! my comment was
> with reference to yours.

Then I misinterpreted it :) You're probably right about players not having
enough money if they spend most of it during chargen, but I find
having several thousand lying around just too much... I might look into
this and make up another house rule, probbaly one as simple as multiplying
by 100 instead of by 1000 :)

> or buying 1M yen of dikote, letting it multiply by 10 and then
> selling it, even at the *0.3 selling factor and other items, street
> indexes you save on anything under street index 3! Not that most
> people are going to abuse the intent of the system this way, and most
> GM's will rule they flood the market in '....' and drop the street
> index.

Not when I GM, I can tell you that :) Although none of my players has ever
thought of selling the stuff they took when creating the characters...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
And then I realized I had 65,407,413 bytes of stuff in my
C:\Shadowrun directory...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 7
From: Tim Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Edges & Flaws : SR compaion character gen genearlly
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 16:36:37 -0800
On Fri, 20 Dec 1996, Gurth wrote:

[snip]

> Then I misinterpreted it :) You're probably right about players not having
> enough money if they spend most of it during chargen, but I find
> having several thousand lying around just too much... I might look into
> this and make up another house rule, probbaly one as simple as multiplying
> by 100 instead of by 1000 :)

I don't know, everytime we do a set of new characters, that 3d6*1,000
nuyen just about lasts them long enough to get to the meet for the first
run. Between buying an actual weapon (sometimes you can't just find the
yen after buying a drek load of chrome, drones, and or foci), a CAR or
bike (it's amazing how many times runners in my group forget about HOW
their going to get places), more phones, and other personal gear (hell,
one guy blew all his on a cool trid-entertainment center with HUGE
speakers). They always seem to get to the first run in desperate need of
money - either because they have none left, or because what they want
cost's way more than they have.

>
> > or buying 1M yen of dikote, letting it multiply by 10 and then
> > selling it, even at the *0.3 selling factor and other items, street
> > indexes you save on anything under street index 3! Not that most
> > people are going to abuse the intent of the system this way, and most
> > GM's will rule they flood the market in '....' and drop the street
> > index.
>
> Not when I GM, I can tell you that :) Although none of my players has ever
> thought of selling the stuff they took when creating the characters...

Mine neither...BTW how do you just buy 1M yen of dikote? It doesn't come
in little boxes that you open and sprinkle on the object. It's an
expensive process, not a product per se. That's abit like buying lots of
the material used to chrome metal parts, then expecting to be able to sell
it to the people who actually do the chroming process. Why would any
establishment capable of that type of work buy raw materials from some
unknown individual?

>
> --
> Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html

~Tim
Message no. 8
From: Mike Hartmann <hartmann@***********.M.EUNET.DE>
Subject: Re: Edges & Flaws : SR compaion character gen genearlly
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 11:48:04 +0000
> > or buying 1M yen of dikote, letting it multiply by 10 and then
> > selling it, even at the *0.3 selling factor and other items, street
> > indexes you save on anything under street index 3! Not that most
> > people are going to abuse the intent of the system this way, and most
> > GM's will rule they flood the market in '....' and drop the street
> > index.
>
> Not when I GM, I can tell you that :) Although none of my players has ever
> thought of selling the stuff they took when creating the characters...

Then your players are not very imaginative..:-)

bye Mike
Message no. 9
From: Rook <woneal@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Edges & Flaws : SR compaion character gen genearlly
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 18:13:14 -0005
I had a few problems with several of the Edges and Flaws given in the
Companion. I do like the book overall, but here's a few "error's" I found.

Both Bio-Rejection and Sensitive System cost the same for magically active
characters... I'd suggest raising the point value of Bio-Rejection for
magicallly active characters to -3. Otherwise only a true role-player magician
is ever going to take it.

The Home Ground advantage costs only 2 points but give the character a -1 TN
bonus to ALL tests. Somebody tell me how home ground advantage is going to
improve the character's chances of using a B/R skill or Biotech or some similar
example. I can see a combat advantage (the character knows a few good ambush
spots, etc.) and I can definitely see a bonus to stealth skills (knows where
the shadows are) and social skills (dealing with people you know). But I don't
see much else being justifiable.

Blindness is listed as -6 for everyone except the magically active... for who
it is -2 (FASA seems to like that -2 number alot). Now I agree that mages who
can still see with astral perception get a break here. But not that much of a
break. They can't read a road map, a menu or a street sign with astral
perception. They can still see a target to hit a spell with, but if that
target isn't astrally active, it a +2 penalty for the mage. I'd suggest
changing the point value to -4 for the magically active.

Infirm... I cringed when I saw this one. Nice idea... but the point value
isn't worth what it does to you. Reduce the racial maximum of all three
physical attributes and all you get is a lousy -1 point value per level of
reduction! Seems a bit unfair when raising the racial maximum of one attribute
one point costs 2 BP. I'd suggest changing it to -2 BP per level of reduction.

College Education... I'd expand the bonuse to cover Technical Skills, and
possibly magical skills if the character was magically active. My logic being
that Computer is a technical skill, important and commonly used in a high tech
world and taught and virtually any college I can think of in RL. The rule
books also make it clear the many colleges offer degrees in magical skills now.
I would raise the point cost to 3 for magically active characters in that case
however.

Technical School Education is as usefull as College Education, I'd raise the
point cost to 2 BP.

Day Job... a Flaw that pays you money! I think GMs need to be careful to make
sure this Flaw really does stay a flaw. I don't have a problem with it paying
cash to the character, but I think during character creation the GM and player
should work out what the job is, what hours the character has to work and make
sure it's going to be a nuissance. Otherwise your just giving the player free
cash AND extra BP.

Dependant... good idea... some guidelines on the point value of dependants would be
nice. Peter Parkers grandmother might be worth 1 BP for example... she was old
and feeble but pretty much stayed out of the way. A small child or baby might
be worth 2-3 even 4 points depending on how much care it required. Those 2am
feedings can really cut into your shadowrunning time! Darth Vader would not be
a dependant... even if you did have to sing him a lullabye each night!

Extra Enemy... nice idea again... but only one point for a rank 5 enemy... I
don't think so! The value of enemies depends on how much resource money you
have. If you took few resource you could pile up a bunch of rank 1 or 2
enemies and still not have too much to worry about. Yet a character (like a
decker) who needs a lot of money for just basic equipment, or even a mage who
busy a decent library and a shop is going to need plenty of resource money.
Doesn't seem fair they end up with Rank 3-5 enemies for the same 1 BP. I'd
suggest changing the BP value of the extra enemy to match the Rank of the extra
enemy. Thus an extra Rank 5 enemy would be worth a whopping -5 BP, but a Rank
1 extra enemy would only be worth -1 BP (and a Rank 0 enemy gets you nothing).

Police record... great idea... but it needs to be clarified I think. It's
starts of fine... yes corps everywhere have a copy of your record (doesn't mean
they give a flying frag, hey so you nuked the competitions research lab, what
do they care, maybe they'll give you a nice shiny ribbon for doing it!). Then
it says every LoneStar officer will recognize you on sight. Excuse me! Do all
LoneStar officers have photographic memories and do these officers make it a
habit to memories every criminal record in the world... I don't think so.
Make a reputation check or some such and if the officer gets a success... then
the recognize you. Otherwise your just another joe citizen to them (still
doesn't mean they won't harass you though ;). Also... LoneStar doesn't give a
frag about you if you are outside their jurisdiction, in other words, as soon
as you step into an area they aren't contracted to protect, the ignore you
(unles you just geeked a few of their buddies of course, then all bets are
off!). Second, it says you can't ever legally get a SIN... say what! I would
think that if you have criminal record you have been given a SIN (how do you
think they organize all those records and tag them too you). As long as you
keep that SIN, report in to your parole officer and don't get caught breaking
the law... they leave you alone (mostly). If you ditch the SIN you don't have
to chat with the parole officer anymore... but now they've got a warrant out
for your arrest and the next time a LoneStar officer recognizes you the are
going to do a tad more than harass you! That at least is how I'd play that
flaw.

Other than the above I like the Edges and Flaws idea and will use it in my own
game. Like I said, overall I liked the book and it dealt with a lot of topics
I wanted to hear about. My ideas for correct the flaws with their Flaws are
just my 2 nuyen so don't get bent if you disagree.

Rook
(woneal@*******.net)

--- When the Man with the Hoe rises up to judge this world after the Silence of the
centuries, let
him not find me lacking in merit.
Message no. 10
From: Rookie <rookie@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Edges & Flaws : SR compaion character gen genearlly
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 17:16:37 -0700
> Rook
> (woneal@*******.net)
>
> --- When the Man with the Hoe rises up to judge this world after the
Silence of the centuries, let
> him not find me lacking in merit.

Nice Nick

-Rookie

On the third day of the second month,
In the year of two thousand and one,
there will be war. There will be death.
THERE WILL BE ARMAGEDDON.
-{Nostradamos}-
rookie@*******.com
5546@**.ev.maricopa.edu
http://www.netzone.com/~rookie

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