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Message no. 1
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: ED Magic in SR Question
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 14:35:19 -0500
*Ducks incoming fishies*

Hey cut that out! I just want to know how that would work ... In other
words, in ED you have to thread a spell before you can cast it but you
take no drain. (IIRC, since I don't have any of the books.) So how long
would that take? (a complex action to thread it and a complex action to
cast it?) Would it require any extra skills or skill rolls?

I'm planning on using this for Immortal NPCs and free spirits with the
sorcery power ...

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

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Message no. 2
From: XaOs <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: ED Magic in SR Question
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 15:35:31 -0500
> Hey cut that out! I just want to know how that would work ... In other
> words, in ED you have to thread a spell before you can cast it but you
> take no drain. (IIRC, since I don't have any of the books.) So how long
> would that take? (a complex action to thread it and a complex action to
> cast it?) Would it require any extra skills or skill rolls?

This should be easy. An immortal will probably adapt to the magic level of
his/her/it's time. If it doesn't, it probably won't be casting spells.

But, assuming you still want to do this... ED says that the quickest you can
do this is to thread the spell, and the next round cast it. But ED also
doesn't really provide for the speed increases that SR has. So...complex
action for both sounds about right. Also remember that threading a spell can
take longer than a round, so you'll probably want to account for that too.
(I'm not familiar enough with ED mechanics to come up with a good rule for
this at the moment).

> I'm planning on using this for Immortal NPCs and free spirits with the
> sorcery power ...

Spirits live in the world of magic. They shouldn't need to be hindered by
the need to do all that thread stuff.

-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
Message no. 3
From: Michael vanHulst <Schizi@***.COM>
Subject: Re: ED Magic in SR Question
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 19:32:10 EDT
In a message dated 9/5/98 12:40:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time, dghost@****.COM
writes:

>
> Hey cut that out! I just want to know how that would work ... In other
> words, in ED you have to thread a spell before you can cast it but you
> take no drain. (IIRC, since I don't have any of the books.) So how long
> would that take? (a complex action to thread it and a complex action to
> cast it?) Would it require any extra skills or skill rolls?
>
> I'm planning on using this for Immortal NPCs and free spirits with the
> sorcery power ...
`given the power level of the individuals in question, I consider them to have
the better varieties of matrices. Through the centuries, anyone that has such
a system would have kept going with it to the point that they can keep more
active. It also explains why they have no drain problems :-)
Message no. 4
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: ED Magic in SR Question
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 21:53:25 -0400
On Sat, 5 Sep 1998, XaOs wrote:

->> I'm planning on using this for Immortal NPCs and free spirits with the
->> sorcery power ...
->
->Spirits live in the world of magic. They shouldn't need to be hindered by
->the need to do all that thread stuff.

I believe the restriction on spirits with the Sorcery power is
that they cannot cast spells with a Force greater than their Force. As
long as the spell's force is less than or equal to their own Force, they
take no drain from casting it. (Grimoire pg 81, Paragraph 1, denotation
#2)

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 5
From: XaOs <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: ED Magic in SR Question
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 21:10:48 -0500
> ->> I'm planning on using this for Immortal NPCs and free spirits with the
> ->> sorcery power ...
> ->
> ->Spirits live in the world of magic. They shouldn't need to be
> hindered by
> ->the need to do all that thread stuff.
>
> I believe the restriction on spirits with the Sorcery power is
> that they cannot cast spells with a Force greater than their Force. As
> long as the spell's force is less than or equal to their own Force, they
> take no drain from casting it. (Grimoire pg 81, Paragraph 1, denotation
> #2)

Well, as the question was in respect to thread weaving etc. and not force, I
don't see how this is terribly relevant. Accurate, yes. Just not terribly
relevant.

-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
Message no. 6
From: Michael vanHulst <Schizi@***.COM>
Subject: Re: ED Magic in SR Question
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 22:16:00 EDT
In a message dated 9/5/98 7:11:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time, xaos@*****.NET
writes:

> > I believe the restriction on spirits with the Sorcery power is
> > that they cannot cast spells with a Force greater than their Force. As
> > long as the spell's force is less than or equal to their own Force, they
> > take no drain from casting it. (Grimoire pg 81, Paragraph 1, denotation
> > #2)
>
> Well, as the question was in respect to thread weaving etc. and not force,
I
> don't see how this is terribly relevant. Accurate, yes. Just not terribly
> relevant.
>
Since they do not have drain up to their force, they would not need to use
thread magic (which was used so that energy would not course through the
caster, allowing horror taint from corrupted astral space)
Message no. 7
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: ED Magic in SR Question
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 22:05:11 -0500
On Sat, 5 Sep 1998 21:53:25 -0400 David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
writes:
>On Sat, 5 Sep 1998, XaOs wrote:
>
>->> I'm planning on using this for Immortal NPCs and free spirits with
the
>->> sorcery power ...

>->Spirits live in the world of magic. They shouldn't need to be hindered
by
>->the need to do all that thread stuff.

> I believe the restriction on spirits with the Sorcery power is
>that they cannot cast spells with a Force greater than their Force. As
>long as the spell's force is less than or equal to their own Force, they
>take no drain from casting it. (Grimoire pg 81, Paragraph 1, denotation
>#2)
>
>Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
<SNIP Sig>

Yes. That's the cannon rules ... I'm not using the cannon rules (but you
didn't know that :)... I'm changing it so Free Spirits with the sorcery
power take drain unless they thread the spells which is why I included
them in the question ... regardless, whether or not said spirits normally
(ie, as per cannon material) need resist drain has no bearing on how such
a system would work for the other immortal NPCs that would use this sytem
of magic. So how would it work?

(Xaos said a bit about it in the original post but also said he [?] was
not familiar with ED to suggest rules ...)

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

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Message no. 8
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: ED Magic in SR Question
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 21:50:32 -0500
On Sat, 5 Sep 1998 19:32:10 EDT Michael vanHulst <Schizi@***.COM> writes:
>In a message dated 9/5/98 12:40:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
dghost@****.COM
>writes:
>> Hey cut that out! I just want to know how that would work ... In
other
>> words, in ED you have to thread a spell before you can cast it but
you
>> take no drain. (IIRC, since I don't have any of the books.) So how
long
>> would that take? (a complex action to thread it and a complex action
to
>> cast it?) Would it require any extra skills or skill rolls?
>>
>> I'm planning on using this for Immortal NPCs and free spirits with
the
>> sorcery power ...

>`given the power level of the individuals in question, I consider them
to have
>the better varieties of matrices. Through the centuries, anyone that has
such
>a system would have kept going with it to the point that they can keep
more
>active. It also explains why they have no drain problems :-)

You could you translate that into something someone who has never touched
an ED book in his life (ie, me. :) can understand?

The reason I asked was because all I know about ED was a five minute or
so explanation I got once plus the tidbits I've gotten here ...

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

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Message no. 9
From: Michael vanHulst <Schizi@***.COM>
Subject: Re: ED Magic in SR Question
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 23:23:41 EDT
In a message dated 9/5/98 8:13:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time, dghost@****.COM
writes:

>
> You could you translate that into something someone who has never touched
> an ED book in his life (ie, me. :) can understand?
>
> The reason I asked was because all I know about ED was a five minute or
> so explanation I got once plus the tidbits I've gotten here ...
A spell Matrix holds the spell. An enhanced matrix also holds one thread of
the spell (different spells require different amounts of threads to cast)
I do not remember the exact rules (never got a magey type high enough to
memorize them) but you can weave the threads, hold them there but take drain
(basically) or you can weave more threads at once (what the IE's would do)
So (assuming I am stating it clearly) I can see a being with centuries of
practice reaching the point where you could have the matrix talent, with more
than 1 thread weaved to it. (In point of fact such may already exist, Schizi
was a T'skrang K'stuulama Scout and never had the need for more than a tail-
axe :-)
So they would have the threads woven for the spells they would actually use
commonly, and most likely have multiple matrices that would hold all the
common spells that they would use. Hence they would cast their spells (at
least the most common ones) as quickly, but without any form of drain, or
chance of drain:-)
Message no. 10
From: Elindor Quinn <rjakins@****.MURDOCH.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: ED Magic in SR Question
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 21:00:00 +0800
D. Ghost wrote:

> *Ducks incoming fishies*
>
> Hey cut that out! I just want to know how that would work ... In other
> words, in ED you have to thread a spell before you can cast it but you
> take no drain. (IIRC, since I don't have any of the books.) So how long
> would that take? (a complex action to thread it and a complex action to
> cast it?) Would it require any extra skills or skill rolls?

OK, I've come up with some rules for Spell Matrices that are
(hopefully) very simple.

Thread Weaving is a metamagical ability. It allows the character to
weave threads to true patterns and into spell matrices. Once the
ability has been purchased, the character developes the thread
weaving skill, using Willpower as the linked attribute.

A Spell Matrix is a metamagical ability. You may have a number of
spell matrices equal to your initiate grade. A spell matrix is
improved in the same manner as a skill, with magic as the linked
attribute. A spell matrix can have a spell with a force rating up to
it's rank.

When casting through a spell matrix, the thread weaving difficulty
is equal to the drain target number. The number of threads is
dependent on the drain level - L = 0, M = 1, S = 2 and D = 3. In a
complex action, you can weave (successes / 2) rounded down
threads (1 success counts as one thread). You can also trade
back the difficulty, increasing the number of threads by 1 for every -
2 to the target number. Once all the threads have been woven, the
spell is cast by using sorcery.

> I'm planning on using this for Immortal NPCs and free spirits with the
> sorcery power ...

Well, there are three other kinds of spell matrices available to
magician - enhanced (circle 5 (grade 5)) which can hold a thread,
Armoured (circle / grade 9) which have double force in astral
combat and hold a thread, and share (circle / grade 13), which can
hold more than one spell (total force equal to the rank), have twice
their force in astral combat, but cannot hold an extra thread.

Elindor Quinn
The Devil's Advocate
(rjakins@****.murdoch.edu.au)
ICQ #9277613
I'm a 5354533534 kind of person.
Message no. 11
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: ED Magic in SR Question
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 22:40:15 +0100
And verily, did D. Ghost hastily scribble thusly...
|
|*Ducks incoming fishies*
|
|Hey cut that out! I just want to know how that would work ... In other
|words, in ED you have to thread a spell before you can cast it but you
|take no drain. (IIRC, since I don't have any of the books.) So how long
|would that take? (a complex action to thread it and a complex action to
|cast it?) Would it require any extra skills or skill rolls?

In Earthdawn, it takes one action to weave EACH thread into the spell
matrix. So, if it's a one thread spell, you draw down a thread and weave it
in one action (using your threadweaving skill), and then you cast it the
next round (using your spellcasting skill).

If it's a 3 thread spell, then you need to spend 3 actions weaving, although
success level can grant "free" threads becasue you did it so well.

|I'm planning on using this for Immortal NPCs and free spirits with the
|sorcery power ...

Hmmmm...
:)

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 12
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: ED Magic in SR Question
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 22:45:08 +0100
And verily, did XaOs hastily scribble thusly...
|> I'm planning on using this for Immortal NPCs and free spirits with the
|> sorcery power ...
|
|Spirits live in the world of magic. They shouldn't need to be hindered by
|the need to do all that thread stuff.

Nahhh. They'd just cast raw magic. So would immortals...
(In fact, so does everyone at the moment. The need for a Spell Matrix is
still centuries away...)

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 13
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: ED Magic in SR Question
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 22:51:37 +0100
And verily, did Michael vanHulst hastily scribble thusly...
|Since they do not have drain up to their force, they would not need to use
|thread magic (which was used so that energy would not course through the
|caster, allowing horror taint from corrupted astral space)
|

Almost. They were used to *FILTER* the astral energy, removing corrupted
energy from then mix. And as there isn't any noticable horror corrupted
astral space ATM, there's no need for a spell matrix.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 14
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: ED Magic in SR Question
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 17:43:26 -0500
On Sun, 6 Sep 1998 22:51:37 +0100 Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
writes:
>And verily, did Michael vanHulst hastily scribble thusly...
>|Since they do not have drain up to their force, they would not need to
use
>|thread magic (which was used so that energy would not course through
the
>|caster, allowing horror taint from corrupted astral space)

>Almost. They were used to *FILTER* the astral energy, removing corrupted
>energy from then mix. And as there isn't any noticable horror corrupted
>astral space ATM, there's no need for a spell matrix.

<SNIP Sig>
>| Andrew Halliwell
<SNIP Sig>

Well, I was told that using matrices had the added benefit of nixing
drain ... (which is why I was going to use this for immies & free spirits
& such ...) Is that right?

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

_____________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 15
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: ED Magic in SR Question
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 18:01:27 -0500
On Sun, 6 Sep 1998 21:00:00 +0800 Elindor Quinn
<rjakins@****.murdoch.edu.au> writes:
>D. Ghost wrote:
>> *Ducks incoming fishies*
>>
>> Hey cut that out! I just want to know how that would work ... In
other
>> words, in ED you have to thread a spell before you can cast it but you
>> take no drain. (IIRC, since I don't have any of the books.) So how
long
>> would that take? (a complex action to thread it and a complex action
to
>> cast it?) Would it require any extra skills or skill rolls?

>OK, I've come up with some rules for Spell Matrices that are
>(hopefully) very simple.

<SNIP Long and confusing suggestion>
(Btw, I don't know if the original message was sent to me privately or
sent to the list ... :/)

>Elindor Quinn
<SNIP Sig>

Uhm .. that was a bit confusing (for me at least) ... so lets see if I've
got it right:

Skills needed for casting through Matrices:
-Thread weaving (based off Willpower)
-Sorcery
-Is spell Matrices a metamagical ability or a skill based off will
power???
-How many threads can a spell Matrix Hold?

Procedure:
-Every spell requires 1 thread per drain code (L=1, D=4 [I changed it
from you post which required 1 less per drain code])
-Every Complex Action roll threadweaving skill versus a T# equal to the
drain target number of the spell cast. One extra thread is weaved per 2
successes (round down) past the first success (Another change I made)
-After all threads are weaved, spend one complex action to cast the
spell.
-No drain resistance roll (correct?)

Other spell Matrices:
-Enhanced: What does it do? You said it can hold a thread but that's
what a normal matrix does ... (Was this supposed to hold x2 normal number
of threads?)
-Armored: x2 Force for Astral Combat
-Shared: Hunh??? (Was this supposed to simply allow more than one spell
in an individual Matrix?)

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

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Message no. 16
From: Kaptiv Audienz <G8TWAY@***.COM>
Subject: Re: ED Magic in SR Question
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 01:13:19 EDT
I apologize for snipping the entire topical material, but all this discussion
of crossover has made me consider a question of mine own.

Why is it, that so many players are consistently attempting to bring a concept
from one game system that does not use the similar game mechanics into another
game mechanic structure? I do realize through conversation with other members
of my group that Earthdawn is Shadowrun's historical past, but I fail to see
why so many individual's are attempting to compare one cycle of mana to a
previous cycle of mana. Why can it not be sufficient to say "that was then,
this is now" and merely be done with it at that point?

Additionally, Mr/s Quinn, your address is overwriting that of the mailing
list, could you please correct this situation, as it is a preferred format
mentioned within the FAQ.
Message no. 17
From: XaOs <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: ED Magic in SR Question
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 00:36:44 -0500
> In Earthdawn, it takes one action to weave EACH thread into the spell
> matrix. So, if it's a one thread spell, you draw down a thread
> and weave it
> in one action (using your threadweaving skill), and then you cast it the
> next round (using your spellcasting skill).
>
> If it's a 3 thread spell, then you need to spend 3 actions
> weaving, although
> success level can grant "free" threads becasue you did it so well.

Errr...close, and yet still incorrect.

ED p152 (Last paragraph, column one): "If a spell requires threads, the
magician weaves them using the appropriate Thread Weaving talent (i.e.,
Wizardry). A magician may use his Thread Weaving talent to weave more than
one spell thread per round. to weave multiple threads, multiply the
Difficulty for weaving one thread by the total number of threads to be
woven."

(It goes on to say if the magician achieves an Excellent success or better
in the test, he or she may weave an additional thread to the spell in that
round.)

As I mentioned before, though, the fastest you can cast is to weave one
round, and cast the next. (And ED does not provide for multiple actions in a
round, generally).

Casting 'raw magic' is basically how magic works in Shadowrun, except astral
space hasn't been polluted by the horrors. When this is done, you make a
Warping test. If this test is failed, damage (drain in SR terms, but
physical) is caused. You can also become Horror Marked. (Which means a
horror has noticed you and can mess with you for a year and a day).

-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
Message no. 18
From: XaOs <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: ED Magic in SR Question
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 00:39:09 -0500
> Why can it not be sufficient to say
> "that was then,
> this is now" and merely be done with it at that point?

Probably because the individual wishes the long-lived entity to have
additional (or simply different) abilities due to the fact that they've been
around so long. They may either be set in their old ways, or more powerful
because they can do things beyond what is possible for entities from the
current cycle of magic.

-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
Message no. 19
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: ED Magic in SR Question
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 01:10:17 -0500
On Mon, 7 Sep 1998 01:13:19 EDT Kaptiv Audienz <G8TWAY@***.COM> writes:
>I apologize for snipping the entire topical material, but all this
discussion
>of crossover has made me consider a question of mine own.
>
>Why is it, that so many players are consistently attempting to bring a
concept
>from one game system that does not use the similar game mechanics into
another
>game mechanic structure? I do realize through conversation with other
members
>of my group that Earthdawn is Shadowrun's historical past, but I fail to
see
>why so many individual's are attempting to compare one cycle of mana to
a
>previous cycle of mana. Why can it not be sufficient to say "that was
then,
>this is now" and merely be done with it at that point?
<SNIP>

1) Free Spirits normal cast spells with no drain (up to their force) ...
I don't like that and the ED sys seemed like a good fix ...

2) What is wrong with porting things from other systems? Gurth's
chromebook conversions fit right into SR without a problem and I've drawn
on Rolemaster material without a problem. (By "problem" I mean without
warping Shadowrun into something that's no longer Shadowrun)

I can't see what's wrong with it ...

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

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Message no. 20
From: Kaptiv Audienz <G8TWAY@***.COM>
Subject: Re: ED Magic in SR Question
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 03:09:36 EDT
In a message dated 9/7/1998 1:56:35 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
dghost@****.COM writes:

> 1) Free Spirits normal cast spells with no drain (up to their force) ...
> I don't like that and the ED sys seemed like a good fix ...

That appears to be a possible solution I guess, but I am unfamiliar with the
exact mechanics of Earthdawn, and not familiar with Free Spirits enough to
make even an educated guess.

> 2) What is wrong with porting things from other systems? Gurth's
> chromebook conversions fit right into SR without a problem and I've drawn
> on Rolemaster material without a problem. (By "problem" I mean without
> warping Shadowrun into something that's no longer Shadowrun)

I apologize for I had not intended my statement to sound like any form of
confrontation. I had merely meant that perhaps it would be best for some
forms of game mechanic conversion to simply not be utilized? I am also
unfamiliar with the material by Gurth that you mention, so again I do not see
a problem at this time. Is Chromebook another game sourcebook then, by your
reference?
Message no. 21
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: ED Magic in SR Question
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 02:29:25 -0500
On Mon, 7 Sep 1998 03:09:36 EDT Kaptiv Audienz <G8TWAY@***.COM> writes:
>In a message dated 9/7/1998 1:56:35 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
>dghost@****.COM writes:
<SNIP>
>> 2) What is wrong with porting things from other systems? Gurth's
>> chromebook conversions fit right into SR without a problem and I've
drawn
>> on Rolemaster material without a problem. (By "problem" I mean
without
>> warping Shadowrun into something that's no longer Shadowrun)

>I apologize for I had not intended my statement to sound like any form
of
>confrontation. I had merely meant that perhaps it would be best for
some
>forms of game mechanic conversion to simply not be utilized? I am also
>unfamiliar with the material by Gurth that you mention, so again I do
not see
>a problem at this time. Is Chromebook another game sourcebook then, by
your
>reference?

Well, I didn't intend for my response to come accross as a counter to a
confrontation ... And the Chromebooks (There are 3 of them) are gear
listings for Cyber Punk 2020 that Gurth (I THINK it was Gurth) converted
to Shadowrun ...

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

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Message no. 22
From: Elindor Quinn <rjakins@****.MURDOCH.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: ED Magic in SR Question
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 19:36:34 +0800
D. Ghost wrote:

> On Sun, 6 Sep 1998 21:00:00 +0800 Elindor Quinn
> <rjakins@****.murdoch.edu.au> writes:
> >OK, I've come up with some rules for Spell Matrices that are
> >(hopefully) very simple.
>
> <SNIP Long and confusing suggestion>
> (Btw, I don't know if the original message was sent to me privately or
> sent to the list ... :/)

It was sent to the list (my first post, so I don't need all of the Reply-
to field is overiding the list. I've hopefully fixed that now)

>
> Uhm .. that was a bit confusing (for me at least) ... so lets see if I've
> got it right:
>
> Skills needed for casting through Matrices:
> -Thread weaving (based off Willpower)

Thread Weaving is useful for more than just spell matrices. The
ability to weave a thread is a metamagical ability - you can't learn
the spell before you gain the power.

> -Sorcery
> -Is spell Matrices a metamagical ability or a skill based off will
> power???

The ability to use a spell matrix is a metamagical ability. However,
the rank of the matrix is increased as if it was a skill, based on the
Magic Rating.

> -How many threads can a spell Matrix Hold?

A spell matrix cannot hold threads. You weave the threads to the
matrix as you cast the spell. When you cast the spell, or stop
weaving threads, the threads vanish.

> Procedure:
> -Every spell requires 1 thread per drain code (L=1, D=4 [I changed it from
> you post which required 1 less per drain code])

Fair enough, but Earthdawn does have spells with 0 threads.

>-Every Complex Action roll threadweaving skill versus a T# equal to the
> drain target number of the spell cast. One extra thread is weaved per
> 2 successes (round down) past the first success (Another change I made)

Yes. I said you need 4 sucesses, as you need an excellent
success to weave an extra thread when you're not trying to weave
more than one thread. (Poor, Average, Good, Excellent,
Extraordinary is the ED progression)

> -After all threads are weaved, spend one complex action to cast the spell.

Yes. Spellcasting is an action, but it must be made in the next
action after weaving the final thread, unless you have a talent or
knack that allows you to hold the matrix in place until needed.

> -No drain resistance roll (correct?)

Corrent. The astral energy flows through the matrix, not the caster.

> Other spell Matrices:
> -Enhanced: What does it do? You said it can hold a thread but that's what
> a normal matrix does ... (Was this supposed to hold x2 normal number of
> threads?)

An enhanced matrix can hold a single thread for the spell as part of
it's design, reducing the number of threads to be woven by 1.

>-Armored: x2 Force for Astral Combat

Exactly. Shared matrices also have this characteristic. Also, an
armoured matrix can hold a thread as part of it's design.

> -Shared: Hunh??? (Was this supposed to simply allow more than one spell
> in an individual Matrix?)

In Earthdawn, yes. It was only available at circle 13 or higher to
spellcasters, hence grade 13.

Elindor Quinn
The Devil's Advocate
(rjakins@****.murdoch.edu.au)
ICQ #9277613
I'm a 5354533534 kind of person.
Message no. 23
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: ED Magic in SR Question
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 13:21:31 +0100
And verily, did D. Ghost hastily scribble thusly...
|Well, I was told that using matrices had the added benefit of nixing
|drain ... (which is why I was going to use this for immies & free spirits
|& such ...) Is that right?

I can't remember off hand.
There are rules in Earthdawn for casting "Raw magic" (only used in
emergencies because of the risk), and I'm not sure if they take strain there
either, unless they fluff the roll or cast in tainted space.......

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 24
From: Elindor Quinn <rjakins@****.MURDOCH.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: ED Magic in SR Question
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 20:26:21 +0800
Spike wrote:

> And verily, did D. Ghost hastily scribble thusly...
> |Well, I was told that using matrices had the added benefit of nixing
> |drain ... (which is why I was going to use this for immies & free spirits
> |& such ...) Is that right?
>
> I can't remember off hand.
> There are rules in Earthdawn for casting "Raw magic" (only used in
> emergencies because of the risk), and I'm not sure if they take strain
> there either, unless they fluff the roll or cast in tainted space.......

Raw magic involves warping in any astral space, as the energy
goes through you. The more corrupt the space and more powerful
the spell, the stronger the warping. Think of it as background count
that can raise the drain level, not just the target.

Mystic armour helps, though.

Elindor Quinn
The Devil's Advocate
(rjakins@****.murdoch.edu.au)
ICQ #9277613
I'm a 5354533534 kind of person.
Message no. 25
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: ED Magic in SR Question
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 13:27:27 +0100
And verily, did D. Ghost hastily scribble thusly...
|-How many threads can a spell Matrix Hold?

As many as required for the spell. The more threads it requires, the less
complex the matrix framework is, and the more complex the spell is. (The
threads are used to complete the pattern in the matrix).

|-Shared: Hunh??? (Was this supposed to simply allow more than one spell
|in an individual Matrix?)

Correct.

A thought I had for a while was something else based on threads.
Read the "Wheel of time" books by Robert Jordan?

They weave threads to cause magical effects, but they have more to play
with. The threads they use are Earth, Air, Fire, Water and Spirit, and
complex inweaves in these can cause anything from lighting a match to
erasing someone from time itself... [Balefire... Very nasty stuff].
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 26
From: Dom T-J <phobic@**.NET.AU>
Subject: Re: ED Magic in SR Question
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 23:10:18 +1000
At 13:27 7/09/98 +0100, you wrote:
>
>A thought I had for a while was something else based on threads.
>Read the "Wheel of time" books by Robert Jordan?
>
>They weave threads to cause magical effects, but they have more to play
>with. The threads they use are Earth, Air, Fire, Water and Spirit, and
>complex inweaves in these can cause anything from lighting a match to
>erasing someone from time itself... [Balefire... Very nasty stuff].


That system would be HELL to create and tweak.
Good luck if you're game tho... I for one wouldn't mind playing an Asha'man...

:)


Phobic
"He who fears nothing save fear itself. And trolls with clubs."
Message no. 27
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: ED Magic in SR Question
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 14:34:34 +0100
And verily, did Elindor Quinn hastily scribble thusly...
|Thread Weaving is useful for more than just spell matrices. The
|ability to weave a thread is a metamagical ability - you can't learn
|the spell before you gain the power.

Yes, you can.
But you have to cast spells using raw magic, which, in Earthdawn, is risky
to say the least.


--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 28
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: ED Magic in SR Question
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 09:26:54 -0500
----------
> From: Kaptiv Audienz <G8TWAY@***.COM>
>
> Why is it, that so many players are consistently attempting to bring a
concept
> from one game system that does not use the similar game mechanics into
another
> game mechanic structure? I do realize through conversation with other
members
> of my group that Earthdawn is Shadowrun's historical past, but I fail to
see
> why so many individual's are attempting to compare one cycle of mana to
a
> previous cycle of mana. Why can it not be sufficient to say "that was
then,
> this is now" and merely be done with it at that point?

Aztlan, page 68, second column

:::::[THE BIG 'D'] (yada yada yada) The cycles repeat themselves truly, do
they not? (etc.)

No one bothers to contradict this statement, amongst all the old ones
present. I admit that some take it a bit too far, wishing for things to
show up centuries before they're supposed to, but I believe even Barsaive
always had _some_ presence of Horrors once the mana cycle was sufficient
to support the invae.

Another point is that things such as Matrices can easily exist, and since
things from long before still exist (IE's, dragons) they might still be
using the techniques developed in a previous age, simply because that's
what they're used to. IE's are as human as the rest of us, and can get
stuck in a habit that doesn't really mean anything (at that point... in a
couple thousand years, it could be very important). That's why rules for
things like Spell Matrices are necessary... not because the runner will
ever learn how to use them, but because there are still those alive who
the runners might come in contact with who use those techniques (e.g.
Blood Magic)

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bard to the Lady Mari
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
*
The place to improve the world is in one's own heart and head and hands,
and then work outward from there. Other people talk about how to expand
the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a
motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value.
-Robert Pirsig, "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance"
Message no. 29
From: Wilbur The new adept <mad_bomb@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: ED Magic in SR Question
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 07:38:14 PDT
>----------
> From: Kaptiv Audienz <G8TWAY@***.COM>
>
> Why is it, that so many players are consistently attempting to bring a
>concept
> from one game system that does not use the similar game mechanics into
>another
> game mechanic structure? I do realize through conversation with other
>members
> of my group that Earthdawn is Shadowrun's historical past, but I fail
to >see
>> why so many individual's are attempting to compare one cycle of mana
to >a
>> previous cycle of mana. Why can it not be sufficient to say "that
was >then,
> this is now" and merely be done with it at that point?
Well IMHO a great many of the games even from other companies
intertwine, A) because their based on similar mythologies, tolkien and
Grimm and other myths and stories
b)because players want them to, when a player adores 2
systems they will invariably try and integrate the two. Hell i know i
try. I've seen D&D turn into Shadowrun, Werewolf turn into Rifts etc
etc.
MRhaPPYTHEsmilEYMan

*Just because i'm insane doesnt mean i'm insane* -wilbur


______________________________________________________
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Message no. 30
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: ED Magic in SR Question
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 19:49:18 +0200
Spike said on 13:21/7 Sep 98,...

> I can't remember off hand.
> There are rules in Earthdawn for casting "Raw magic" (only used in
> emergencies because of the risk), and I'm not sure if they take strain there
> either, unless they fluff the roll or cast in tainted space.......

They take strain, but the more polluted astral space is, the higher the
strain becomes.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It may look to the untrained eye I'm sitting on my arse all day.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 31
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: ED Magic in SR Question
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 19:49:18 +0200
D. Ghost said on 2:29/7 Sep 98,...

> Well, I didn't intend for my response to come accross as a counter to a
> confrontation ... And the Chromebooks (There are 3 of them)

Four.

> are gear
> listings for Cyber Punk 2020 that Gurth (I THINK it was Gurth) converted
> to Shadowrun ...

It wa me, but several others have also converted (parts of) them to SR,
for example SWO and Wordman. It's just that mine appear to be the most
frequently used.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It may look to the untrained eye I'm sitting on my arse all day.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 32
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: ED Magic in SR Question
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 14:11:37 -0500
On Mon, 7 Sep 1998 19:49:18 +0200 Gurth <gurth@******.NL> writes:
>D. Ghost said on 2:29/7 Sep 98,...
>> Well, I didn't intend for my response to come accross as a counter to
a
>> confrontation ... And the Chromebooks (There are 3 of them)

>Four.

Four? Four that you converted to SR or four in all? (I had thought
there were three and you converted all of them ...)

>> are gear
>> listings for Cyber Punk 2020 that Gurth (I THINK it was Gurth)
converted
>> to Shadowrun ...

>It wa me, but several others have also converted (parts of) them to SR,
>for example SWO and Wordman. It's just that mine appear to be the most
>frequently used.
>
>--
>Gurth@******.nl -
<SNIP Sig>

I was not aware of SWO's and Wordman's ... can you send me the urls? (I
think I used to have Wordman's at least but I lost it)

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

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Message no. 33
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: ED Magic in SR Question
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 15:54:08 -0700
:Well, I was told that using matrices had the added benefit of nixing
:drain ... (which is why I was going to use this for immies +ACY- free spirits
:+ACY- such ...) Is that right?

Not as such. In ED, it is possible to cast spells without matrices+ADs-
this is called +ACI-raw casting+ACI-. The danger in doing so is not inherent to
the technique+ADs- if done in a +ACI-safe region+ACI-, where astral space is
+ACI-clean+ACI-,
its fine. Its how most magic was done until shortly before the scourge.
+ACI-Raw Casting+ACI- in a polluted region does the caster damage because the
caster is not protected form exposure to the astral energy. Using some
technique to enter astral space in such a region will do similar damage
(although viewing astral space will not, so the corollary to SR is not
perfect, and never will be). The other danger lies in the fact that you
might attract a horrors attention and be marked or even attacked.

Mongoose
Message no. 34
From: Justin Bell <justin@******.NET>
Subject: Re: ED Magic in SR Question
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 16:01:08 -0500
At 03:54 PM 9/7/98 -0700, Mongoose wrote:
# :drain ... (which is why I was going to use this for immies +ACY- free
spirits
# :+ACY- such ...) Is that right?
+ADs-
# this is called +ACI-raw casting+ACI-. The danger in doing so is not
inherent to
# the technique+ADs- if done in a +ACI-safe region+ACI-, where astral space
is +ACI-clean+ACI-,
# its fine. Its how most magic was done until shortly before the scourge.
# +ACI-Raw Casting+ACI- in a polluted region does the caster damage

what ARE these annoying characters?

--
/- justin@************.com ---------------- justin@******.net -\
|Justin Bell NIC:JB3084| Time and rules are changing. |
|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/
Message no. 35
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: ED Magic in SR Question
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 16:17:08 -0700
:At 03:54 PM 9/7/98 -0700, Mongoose wrote:
:# :drain ... (which is why I was going to use this for immies +ACY- free
:spirits
:# :+ACY- such ...) Is that right?
:+ADs-
:# this is called +ACI-raw casting+ACI-. The danger in doing so is not
:inherent to
:# the technique+ADs- if done in a +ACI-safe region+ACI-, where astral
space
:is +ACI-clean+ACI-,
:# its fine. Its how most magic was done until shortly before the
scourge.
:# +ACI-Raw Casting+ACI- in a polluted region does the caster damage
:
:what ARE these annoying characters?


GOOD GOD! I thought I fixed that, and it now looks WORSE!
I -think- its some OE setting (the alphabet, I'm guessing)- If somebody
could help me out here, I would appreciate it. Maybe just tell me what OE
alphabets are working for them?

Mongoose
Message no. 36
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: ED Magic in SR Question
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 22:46:16 +0100
And verily, did Mongoose hastily scribble thusly...
| GOOD GOD! I thought I fixed that, and it now looks WORSE!
|I -think- its some OE setting (the alphabet, I'm guessing)- If somebody
|could help me out here, I would appreciate it. Maybe just tell me what OE
|alphabets are working for them?

I...don't think it's the alphabet...
Last time I saw them, they were being used in the same way I use "|" and
others use ">" or ":" (i.e. Quote marks).

Set your quote marks to a more standard character, and the problem should go
away.

I have no idea how to do that in OE though.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 37
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: ED Magic in SR Question
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 11:11:15 +0200
D. Ghost said on 14:11/7 Sep 98,...

> >> And the Chromebooks (There are 3 of them)
>
> >Four.
>
> Four? Four that you converted to SR or four in all? (I had thought
> there were three and you converted all of them ...)

I've converted four, but only three are up on my web site. The new file,
with all four, is still being worked on as I'm updating it for VR 2.0,
Rigger 2, Cybertechnology, and SR3. Now all I have to do is get myself to
finish it :)

> I was not aware of SWO's and Wordman's ... can you send me the urls? (I
> think I used to have Wordman's at least but I lost it)

I think they mostly converted some weapons. AFAIK SWO only did all the
guns from Chromebook 1, and maybe 2 -- check their SWO Guns file (is
http://www.swo.com still valid?)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It may look to the untrained eye I'm sitting on my arse all day.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 38
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: ED Magic in SR Question
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 06:40:58 -0500
Okay, after a bit of thought, this how I'm going to handle it in my games
(Special thanks to Elindor Quinn, the owners of the Shadowbase website
[who have some ED in SR material up], and Lady Jestyr [Maintainer of
Webring where the Shadowbases's web addy may be obtained]. [Done
plugging?-Ed] {Yes-NotEd}), Pleas tell me what you think:

On Sun, 6 Sep 1998 18:01:27 -0500 dghost writes:
>On Sun, 6 Sep 1998 21:00:00 +0800 Elindor Quinn
><rjakins@****.murdoch.edu.au> writes:
>>D. Ghost wrote:
>>> *Ducks incoming fishies*
>>>
>>> Hey cut that out! I just want to know how that would work ...
<SNIP>
>>OK, I've come up with some rules for Spell Matrices that are
>>(hopefully) very simple.

><SNIP Long and confusing suggestion>
>>Elindor Quinn
><SNIP Sig>

>Uhm .. that was a bit confusing (for me at least) ... so lets see if
>I've got it right:
>
>Skills needed for casting through Matrices:
>-Thread weaving (based off Willpower)
>-Sorcery

MetaMagical Abilities (Note: below, by "hold", I mean can have a thread
weaved into it.)
-Spell Matrices (Maximum number available equal to Intiate Grade, each
holds up to one thread per rating and no more than one spell)
-Enhanced Matrices (holds x2 threads)
-Armored Matrices (x2 Rating for astral combat)
-Shared Matrices (each matrix holds +50% threads [round down] divided
among 2 or more spells [each spell may not consume more threads than the
matrix rating])
-Maximum rating of spell matrices is equal to the Magical background
skill.
-Matrices must be created and bonded before they can used. To create a
matrix, it takes 30 days, at the end of which the creator rolls his/her
Thread weaving against a T# equal to the rating of the matrix. (Divide
30 days by number of successes to determine actual time taken.) When
creation is completed, one karma per rating of the matrix is paid to bond
it to the user.

>Procedure:
-Number of threads required is based off the force of the spell times a
multiplier based off the drain:
Light: .25
Moderate: .5
Serious: 1
Deadly: 2
(yes, I severely increased the amount of time needed to cast spells
through matrices.)
>-Every Complex Action roll threadweaving skill versus a T# equal to
>the drain target number of the spell cast. One extra thread is weaved
>per 2 successes (round down) past the first success (Another change I
made)
-Immediately After all threads are weaved, spend one complex action to
cast the spell.
-No drain resistance roll

>D. Ghost
<SNIP Sig>

Note: This probably doesn't reflect ED magic well, but I think it should
work for the purposes I intended. :)

What do you think?

D. Ghost (Who will stop bothering the SR list about ED now ... ;)
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

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Message no. 39
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: ED Magic in SR Question
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 08:58:40 -0400
On Mon, 7 Sep 1998, Kaptiv Audienz wrote:

->I apologize for snipping the entire topical material, but all this discussion
->of crossover has made me consider a question of mine own.

If it's not necessary, I don't quote it either. No apologies
necessary.

->Why is it, that so many players are consistently attempting to bring a concept
->from one game system that does not use the similar game mechanics into another
->game mechanic structure? I do realize through conversation with other members
->of my group that Earthdawn is Shadowrun's historical past, but I fail to see
->why so many individual's are attempting to compare one cycle of mana to a
->previous cycle of mana. Why can it not be sufficient to say "that was then,
->this is now" and merely be done with it at that point?

I'll admit to taking party to this. There are simply some ideas
from other games (mine being cantrips from AD&D) that we'd like to see in
Shadowrun because they're just so darned spiffy. The desire to take
pieces from other games and 'port them into SR comes primarily from our
gaming style. I, by habit, am a prankster/smartass. I like cantrips.
Others here are computertechs and combat monsters and magi, etc. We have,
for the majority, played other RPGs before Shadowrun, or after Shadowrun,
and enjoyed some of the aspects of those games and try to make all the
lovely ideas merge in the Sixth world we all would like to call home for
our characters. Style is why we continue to try to 'port.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 40
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: ED Magic in SR Question
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 10:06:25 -0400
On Mon, 7 Sep 1998, Nexx wrote:

->Aztlan, page 68, second column
->
->:::::[THE BIG 'D'] (yada yada yada) The cycles repeat themselves truly, do
->they not? (etc.)
->
->No one bothers to contradict this statement, amongst all the old ones
->present. I admit that some take it a bit too far, wishing for things to
->show up centuries before they're supposed to, but I believe even Barsaive
->always had _some_ presence of Horrors once the mana cycle was sufficient
->to support the invae.

Doesn't this also imply that these 'beings' have been around for
more than once cycle? Otherwise, how would they know they repeat? You'd
have to see one from the onset, go all the way through, then see it happen
again before coming to this conclusion. If so, these are some bleeding
old fellows.

->Another point is that things such as Matrices can easily exist, and since
->things from long before still exist (IE's, dragons) they might still be
->using the techniques developed in a previous age, simply because that's
->what they're used to. IE's are as human as the rest of us, and can get

"IE's are as human as the rest of us"?
HAHAHAhAHHAHAhahahhaahahahahhahaahahhaahahahahahhahahahaahahahahahhah
<trying... to... breathe......>

->stuck in a habit that doesn't really mean anything (at that point... in a
->couple thousand years, it could be very important). That's why rules for
->things like Spell Matrices are necessary... not because the runner will
->ever learn how to use them, but because there are still those alive who
->the runners might come in contact with who use those techniques (e.g.
->Blood Magic)

I wonder if the Horrors are reaching out from wherever they are to
teach the Azzies Blood magic. The Azzies take up the practices, thinking
they are the better for nothing, and unwittingly readying the Sixth world
for the Horror's early arrival. Since I don't play ED, I have no idea
whether or not I'm just blowing smoke, but it sounds plausible.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 41
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: ED Magic in SR Question
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 15:04:10 +0100
And verily, did David Foster hastily scribble thusly...
| Doesn't this also imply that these 'beings' have been around for
|more than once cycle? Otherwise, how would they know they repeat? You'd
|have to see one from the onset, go all the way through, then see it happen
|again before coming to this conclusion. If so, these are some bleeding
|old fellows.

Or you'd have to have read about it.
The book found at close to the the beginning of the Earthdawn timeline
warned of the horrors, as it was from ther previous cycle.

It also gave good timings on when to expect them, and how to protect
yourself from them.

If they hadn't found that book, ED would have been toast and the game would
have been MUCH darker and more horrific.

Hmmmm.... Interesting alternate timeline.....
:)
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 42
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: ED Magic in SR Question
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 10:43:07 -0500
----------
> From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
>
> Doesn't this also imply that these 'beings' have been around for
> more than once cycle? Otherwise, how would they know they repeat?
You'd
> have to see one from the onset, go all the way through, then see it
happen
> again before coming to this conclusion. If so, these are some bleeding
> old fellows.

Possibly. it could also imply that they have access to histories (either
oral or written) that would be older than they were.

> ->Another point is that things such as Matrices can easily exist, and
since
> ->things from long before still exist (IE's, dragons) they might still
be
> ->using the techniques developed in a previous age, simply because
that's
> ->what they're used to. IE's are as human as the rest of us, and can
get
>
> "IE's are as human as the rest of us"?
> HAHAHAhAHHAHAhahahhaahahahahhahaahahhaahahahahahhahahahaahahahahahhah
> <trying... to... breathe......>

I view human as one of two things:
1) The species Homo sapiens. In my mind, subspecies is irrelevant.
2) Having humanlike motivations for what they do. In this case, Big D is
as human as the rest of us, while troglodytes (not trogs) aren't even
remotely human, because they have an alien reason for doing anything they
do.

> I wonder if the Horrors are reaching out from wherever they are
to
> teach the Azzies Blood magic. The Azzies take up the practices,
thinking
> they are the better for nothing, and unwittingly readying the Sixth
world
> for the Horror's early arrival. Since I don't play ED, I have no idea
> whether or not I'm just blowing smoke, but it sounds plausible.

That is what is implied throughout the Aztlan book. The President of
Aztlan (or Aztechnology, I forget which) is called a "construct", which in
ED terms means he was heavily modified by a horror.

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bard to the Lady Mari
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
*
The place to improve the world is in one's own heart and head and hands,
and then work outward from there. Other people talk about how to expand
the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a
motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value.
-Robert Pirsig, "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance"
Message no. 43
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: ED Magic in SR Question
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 13:27:36 -0400
On Tue, 8 Sep 1998, Nexx wrote:

->> I wonder if the Horrors are reaching out from wherever they are
->to
->> teach the Azzies Blood magic. The Azzies take up the practices,
->thinking
->> they are the better for nothing, and unwittingly readying the Sixth
->world
->> for the Horror's early arrival. Since I don't play ED, I have no idea
->> whether or not I'm just blowing smoke, but it sounds plausible.
->
->That is what is implied throughout the Aztlan book. The President of
->Aztlan (or Aztechnology, I forget which) is called a "construct", which in
->ED terms means he was heavily modified by a horror.

Wow. Considering I've never read anything on ED or Horrors, and
have read Aztlan, I'm surprised. I'm suddenly interested in what FASA's
intentions on the Horrors will be. After all, you can't just "yank them
out" if you've got a nation working for them.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 44
From: XaOs <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: ED Magic in SR Question
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 13:12:35 -0500
> ->That is what is implied throughout the Aztlan book. The President of
> ->Aztlan (or Aztechnology, I forget which) is called a
> "construct", which in
> ->ED terms means he was heavily modified by a horror.
>
> Wow. Considering I've never read anything on ED or Horrors, and
> have read Aztlan, I'm surprised. I'm suddenly interested in what FASA's
> intentions on the Horrors will be. After all, you can't just "yank them
> out" if you've got a nation working for them.

The Dragon Heart trilogy covers all of this.

-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
Message no. 45
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: ED Magic in SR Question
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 16:46:48 -0400
At 02:35 PM 9/5/98 -0500, you wrote:

>I'm planning on using this for Immortal NPCs and free spirits with the
>sorcery power ...

Honestly, since that's the case (NPC usage), have them do what you want or
feel is necessary.

Rules might be great, might be handy, but if you need some IE to toss off a
wicked Hellblast and not take any drain, then rule by GM-fiat that it happens.

Seems much easier and much more flexible for storytelling to me.

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 46
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: ED Magic in SR Question
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 18:28:29 -0500
On Tue, 8 Sep 1998 16:46:48 -0400 Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM> writes:
>At 02:35 PM 9/5/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>I'm planning on using this for Immortal NPCs and free spirits with the
>>sorcery power ...

>Honestly, since that's the case (NPC usage), have them do what you want
or
>feel is necessary.
>
>Rules might be great, might be handy, but if you need some IE to toss
off a
>wicked Hellblast and not take any drain, then rule by GM-fiat that it
happens.
>
>Seems much easier and much more flexible for storytelling to me.
>
>Erik J.
<SNIP Sig>

Well ... you notice how I said immie NPCs then Free spirits without
tacking NPC on the end? That's right ... I have a Free Spirit PC in my
game (the player RPs well and I don't think I'll let another one in the
game ...) The rules are mainly for him and also to get a general idea for
NPC actions ... (ie s/he spends several turns waving his/her hands in the
air before finally getting the Hellbast off but surprisingly, seems
unbothered by drain ...)

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

_____________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 47
From: Wordman <wordman@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: ED Magic in SR Question
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 20:44:09 -0400
Gurth wrote:
>D. Ghost said on 2:29/7 Sep 98,...
>> are gear
>> listings for Cyber Punk 2020 that Gurth (I THINK it was Gurth) converted
>> to Shadowrun ...
>
>It was me, but several others have also converted (parts of) them to SR,
>for example SWO and Wordman. It's just that mine appear to be the most
>frequently used.

My conversions were never made public. I consider Gurth's to be "official".

Wordman
Message no. 48
From: Tarek Okail <Tarek_Okail@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: ED Magic in SR Question
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 21:18:52 -0400
Nexx--

>That is what is implied throughout the Aztlan book. The =

>President of Aztlan (or Aztechnology, I forget which) is =

>called a "construct", which in ED terms means he was heavily =

>modified by a horror.

Actually, in the novels Blood Sport and the final book
of the DragonHeart trilogy, it becomes clear that the "patchwork
dragon" that Dunkelzahn and co. were referring to is a Blood
Magic construct.
And the presence of a Horror in 2060 is unneccessary to
explain how the Azzies learned Blood Magic. Who said that Horrors
can't write books too? Or, in the case of the Aztecs, carve
petroglyphs... <g> Just possess or influence a local stonecarver,
and have him carve out the petroglyphs describing how to use
Blood Magic, while promising that his family will be safe from
the other Horrors. Then, his work complete, you get him to carve
more petroglyphs... on the hearts of his family. Voila! You've
created a lasting manual on magic that will prove quite useful in
the cycles to follow, you've kept your promise that the poor
sucker's family will be safe from the other Horrors (since the
family is dead), and you get to feed off of your toy's horror
and despair. Fun, neh?

Shadowmage
Message no. 49
From: Tarek Okail <Tarek_Okail@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: ED Magic in SR Question
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 21:18:53 -0400
Spike--

>Or you'd have to have read about it.
>The book found at close to the the beginning of the Earthdawn
>timeline warned of the horrors, as it was from ther previous
>cycle.

Ah, the Seven Books of Tomorrow. Makes you wonder who
wrote them. It makes you wonder who preserved them over time.
It also makes you wonder who guided wossisname to the Books.
It's almost like there were a number of immortals around who
knew about these things and wanted to warn people, so that
civilization would survive. <g> And those immortals don't have
to be elves, either...

Shadowmage
Message no. 50
From: "This is your Evil GM speaking..." <rjakins@****.MURDOCH.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: ED Magic in SR Question
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 18:25:40 +0800
Tarek Okail wrote:

> Spike--
>
> >Or you'd have to have read about it.
> >The book found at close to the the beginning of the Earthdawn
> >timeline warned of the horrors, as it was from ther previous
> >cycle.
>
> Ah, the Seven Books of Tomorrow. Makes you wonder who
> wrote them. It makes you wonder who preserved them over time.
> It also makes you wonder who guided wossisname to the Books.
> It's almost like there were a number of immortals around who
> knew about these things and wanted to warn people, so that
> civilization would survive. <g> And those immortals don't have
> to be elves, either...

That's right. According to the Earthdawn main book, no namegiver
race (That's humans, elves, dwarves, orcs, trolls, windlings
(sprites), t'skrang (reptiles) and obsidimen (golems) for the
Earthdawn-impared) existed in the second age. The dragons were
around, though, and there was definitely a scourge back then. So,
were the books written during the second age, or at the start of the
fourth? And who wrote them? I'm putting my money on
Mountainshadow at the start of the fourth age, and then magically
enhanced them.

So, to get this back on topic (sort of), if spell matrices come out
into Shadowrun proper, where would they come from? The
Dunkelzahn Institute? Atlantean Foundation? Black Lodge? Or one
of the elven lands?

Elindor Quinn
The Devil's Advocate
(rjakins@****.murdoch.edu.au)
ICQ #9277613
I'm a 5354533534 kind of person.
Message no. 51
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: ED Magic in SR Question
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 07:31:04 -0400
On Tue, 8 Sep 1998, Tarek Okail wrote:

->Then, his work complete, you get him to carve
->more petroglyphs... on the hearts of his family. Voila! You've
->created a lasting manual on magic that will prove quite useful in
->the cycles to follow, you've kept your promise that the poor
->sucker's family will be safe from the other Horrors (since the
->family is dead), and you get to feed off of your toy's horror
->and despair. Fun, neh?

Geesh. Sounds like AD&D's Ravenloft. Speaking of which, who's
run a pure Goth SR campaign, filled with terror and horror? It's not my
taste to run, but I've always enjoyed playing it.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 52
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: ED Magic in SR Question
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 13:44:12 -0400
At 09:18 PM 9/8/98 -0400, you wrote:

> And the presence of a Horror in 2060 is unneccessary to
>explain how the Azzies learned Blood Magic. Who said that Horrors
>can't write books too? Or, in the case of the Aztecs, carve
>petroglyphs...

Why must the knowledge for Blood Magic have come from somewhere other than
humanity itself?

To my knowledge, there is a long tradition in myth, legend and religion of
sacrifice (both self and unwilling) being able to do "things" that are
generally more powerful than is normally capable.

The Aztecs, whom the Azzies lay claim to as part of their heritage,
practiced ritual sacrifice for their religion, for their magic. Cutting
out the heart of an enemy atop a temple and burning it for a god was
supposed to provide good luck and blessings of various sorts to the Aztecs.

Plenty of "primitive" cultures believed that by eating a portion (sometimes
a particular portion) of a slain enemy, their life force, their magic,
their skills, would transfer to the person eating the other person.

With this in mind, it really isn't that suprising that someone totally out
of contact with the Horrors could have come up with the basic concept for
modern (SR) Blood Magic.

And honestly, it need not even have been someone horrible and evil or even
magical; a mundane theorist might have had the idea up in MIT&T after
attending a lecture on primitive rituals or something.

To me, this sort of general scenario, that it's a purely human concept,
makes much more sense and is far more likely than Blood Magic being
something taught by Horrors.

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World

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