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Message no. 1
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: ED Races in SR; why it can't happen (long)
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 17:15:57 -0400
At 05:45 PM 5/4/98 -0400, you wrote:
<snip chupacabras = "ghoul t'skrang" theory by Jeremy Fisher>

Well, that idea makes a certain amount of sense. Though I don't believe
that the t'skrang had any real genetic compatibility with humans, so the
fact that chupacabras seem to have primate DNA probably throws this out,
right there. They are probably "ape ghouls" or something similar. Which
makes sense to me.

But let's just take this arguement forward for a moment, since this is an
old, old idea on RN. But I don't recall the most important question ever
being asked.

The question becomes this then. If the various incarnations of VITAS
(we're on what, 4? 5? now?> were engineered by someone to eliminate
t'skrang, windlings (I'm one of the minority that isn't sure
windlingúerie) and obsidimen, then who?

Who designed this virus and why?

The dragons? VITAS hits far too soon for them to be any kind of a real
impact, not to mention Dragons are only now becoming "tech-savvy." And
since they usually seem to be so seperate from metahumanity, why would they
care? If it were them, they probably would have designed VITAS to kill off
the elves.

The immortal elves? As much as I dislike them being the answer to
everything, they are the most likely candidates. They were around to see
the birth of genengineering. They are supposedly almost all somewhat
tech-savvy. It's entirely possible that with adequate resources, an "evil
'Leonardo'" could have designed VITAS to seek out certain genetic sequences
that are tied to the other ED races.

And I don't see anyone else even being a candidate.

But as I mentioned before, this all assumes that t'skrang, windlings and
obsidimen would be a part of metahumanity, that is, they would be
"goblinized" humans. Which is a huge assumption, and one I think is
erroneous to make.

Obsidimen seem to have some sort of relationship with their Liferock; I
have no recollection of anything regarding obsidimen mating or of
obisidimen babies. So they probably arise somehow direct from the
Liferock. This, if I'm right, would automatically eliminate the obsidimen
from being goblinized humans.

Windlings seem to be normal mammals, but they don't seem to be able to
breed with any of the other races. This could simply be sheer mechanics (a
troll and a windling? Physically impossible), but the fact that they have
magical wings also would seem to indicate that they are an entirely
different species. If windlings are the same as SR's faeries, this
supports the argument; they have a different genus (is that right? they
aren't homo sapiens mutablis or something is what I mean).

T'skrang? Sure, they're humanoid. But they are essentially lizards.
Overgrown iguanas. They probably share more genetic code with the lizards
of the Gallapagos Islands than they share with humans (similar, actually,
to how we share a sizable portion of our genetic code with chimpanzees).
T'skrang are evolved lizards just like humans are evolved apes.

So basically, I really don't think VITAS necessarily wiped out any of the
Earthdawn races. What did happen? Here's a speculation.

Okay, a lot of people believe that when the magic goes (4th to 5th worlds),
the metahumans begin to breed as humans. Trolls have human babies and so
on. But what about the non-human humanoid races?

Obsidimen probably just go back to their Liferocks and try to sleep it out.
It's possible that their Liferocks are actually uranium of some other
valuable mineral, so we've mined or damaged nearly all their Liferocks.
Perhaps continuing tectonic activity destroyed any number of Liferocks. Or
perhaps we've simply poisoned too much of the Earth, and their Liferocks
have been similarly poisoned. But even if they are still around, the mana
level would almost certainly have to increase before the Liferocks became
"active" again and those obsidimen are slow beings anyway, they would
certainly take their time waking up from a 5000+ year slumber.

Windlings, I'm not sure. Perhaps their numbers dwindle down to mere
hundreds and they hide in forests and such, inspiring our modern faerie
legends. If so, the faeries of SR are probably inbred and essentially
feral windlings. I think it would be difficult to breed true with a gene
pool of maybe a few hundred over at least 5 thousand years. Not to mention
retaining their culture. They're the "inbred Jeds" of the bunch.

The t'skrang are problematic. They aren't human, so they wouldn't have
human babies like trolls would. They would have to breed true I should
think. So where the frag did they all go? Did they all have normal
lizards as babies? Did their culture collapse in a catastrophic way,
killing all or nearly all of them? Are they simply so dependent on magic
that they either became infertile or ill and died when the magic went away?
Or is it possible that there are t'skrang still around, a few of them,
still living in the underwater cities that a few of them live in?

Basically, if you really want to use those races, my explanation doesn't
totally close the door on you. But these races would be so incredibly rare
that they would be more likely to be a scientific prize than a
shadowrunner. Not to mention they would probably stick with their own kind.

Anyway, these are my thoughts on the matter.

Erik J.

"This job has taken my dignity, my self-esteem, my creativity and my
precious time on this earth. YOU'VE TAKEN ALL I HAVE! THERE'S NOTHING
LEFT TO GIVE!!!"

"The blood drive is next week; this year it's mandatory...and a three-pint
minimum."
Message no. 2
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: ED Races in SR; why it can't happen (long)
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 17:28:09 -0500
----------
> From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>

> Who designed this virus and why?
<snip dragons and IE's>
I agree on the IE's, but there is a possibility that I think a lot of
people overlook. Coincidence. VITAS could have coincidentally targeted
those segments of the population that carried the windling\t'skrang
capability (IIRC, Obsidimen are asexual, and born from their Liferock).
The first plague, IMO, could have very likely been targeted at something
else entirely, but came to humans.
Another possibility is that VITAS is what happens when a certain virus (I
don't remember what VITAS stands for, so I won't speculate), and it
Awakened before either T'skrang or Windlings. In the Fourth World,
T'skrang and windlings had anti-bodies to this disease... it would get a
few, but most could resist it. In the proto-Sixth world, those antibodies
had long been bred out, being no longer needed. When the virus Awakened
into its more virulent form, it killed many of the people who would become
windlings and t'skrang (having been keyed to certain genetic tags that
would have made them what they would be, had they survived).
Believe it or not, not everything is a conspiracy. In the immortal words
of the bumper sticker: Shit Happens.

> Obsidimen seem to have some sort of relationship with their Liferock; I
> have no recollection of anything regarding obsidimen mating or of
> obisidimen babies. So they probably arise somehow direct from the
> Liferock. This, if I'm right, would automatically eliminate the
obsidimen
> from being goblinized humans.
Correct. They are born from the Liferock, and they go back to the
Liferock.

> Windlings seem to be normal mammals, but they don't seem to be able to
> breed with any of the other races. If windlings are the same as SR's
faeries, this
> supports the argument; they have a different genus (is that right? they
> aren't homo sapiens mutablis or something is what I mean).
I believe you mean "sprites" (can't say, don't own the book myself).
However, windlings I'm also not so sure about. IMO, they are Awakened
humans, likely a "subrace" of elves. They aren't fond of cities, which
opens up another avenue: They could be either offshoots of dryads or a
corporeal race of nature spirits (since they are dual-natured in ED).

> T'skrang? Sure, they're humanoid. But they are essentially lizards.
> Overgrown iguanas. They probably share more genetic code with the
lizards
> of the Gallapagos Islands than they share with humans (similar,
actually,
> to how we share a sizable portion of our genetic code with chimpanzees).
> T'skrang are evolved lizards just like humans are evolved apes.
Actually, the problem is whether or not they're warm-blooded (which the
ED text seems to indicate they are). I would place them as being closer
to birds, but actually being an Awakened form of dinosaur, if they are not
human (which I am finding increasingly unlikely). Given the possibility
of surviving dinosaurs in the Congo, look for them to be coming out of the
jungles of Africa... or maybe a lake in Scotland <g>

> So basically, I really don't think VITAS necessarily wiped out any of
the
> Earthdawn races. What did happen? Here's a speculation.
Actually, there is something else you haven't considered: Did VITAS only
affect humans? Its highly likely that the decimation of humans from VITAS
was only a side effect, originally having targeted another species.

> Obsidimen probably just go back to their Liferocks and try to sleep it
out.
> It's possible that their Liferocks are actually uranium of some other
> valuable mineral, so we've mined or damaged nearly all their Liferocks.
Uranium I find highly unlikely, as it would have adverse effects in the
real world to be near an obsidiman. However, it should be noted that
certain clans of obsidimen have veins of semi-precious stones that
actually run through their flesh. If they do wake up, it might be to find
that all of their nobles are dead.

> "This job has taken my dignity, my self-esteem, my creativity and my
> precious time on this earth. YOU'VE TAKEN ALL I HAVE! THERE'S NOTHING
> LEFT TO GIVE!!!"
>
> "The blood drive is next week; this year it's mandatory...and a
three-pint
> minimum."
This is a bloody fucking hilarious quote.
Message no. 3
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: ED Races in SR; why it can't happen (long)
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 20:09:53 -0400
At 05:28 PM 5/6/98 -0500, you wrote:

> Believe it or not, not everything is a conspiracy. In the
immortal words
>of the bumper sticker: Shit Happens.

Oh, I know. I was just speculating. IF this is true, then what are the
implications sort of thing. A mental exercise, especially since I don't
personally believe that VITAS did wipe out the ED races.

> I believe you mean "sprites" (can't say, don't own the book myself).
>However, windlings I'm also not so sure about. IMO, they are Awakened
>humans, likely a "subrace" of elves. They aren't fond of cities, which
>opens up another avenue: They could be either offshoots of dryads or a
>corporeal race of nature spirits (since they are dual-natured in ED).

Sprites, faeries, brownies, leprechauns, to me, they are all essentially
the same.

I'd have to think they aren't an elf off-shoot because they are so much
smaller than elves and have those wings. I'd really be more inclined to
think they are totally separate from humanity.

> Actually, the problem is whether or not they're warm-blooded
(which the
>ED text seems to indicate they are). I would place them as being closer
>to birds, but actually being an Awakened form of dinosaur, if they are not
>human (which I am finding increasingly unlikely). Given the possibility
>of surviving dinosaurs in the Congo, look for them to be coming out of the
> jungles of Africa... or maybe a lake in Scotland <g>

Now this is probably true. T'skrang as awakened humanoid dinosaurs (which,
according to some paleontologists may actually have been warm blooded; I
seem to recall that part of their arguement is that in order to keep up a
constant body temperature a 30 ton dinosaur would have to eat 30 hours in a
24 hour day. A bit impossible).

And *IF* they were to appear, I would expect them either from the darkest
interior of Congo Africa. Or perhaps in an underwater city off the coast
of India (that's from the Theran sourcebook).

> Actually, there is something else you haven't considered: Did
VITAS only
>affect humans? Its highly likely that the decimation of humans from VITAS
>was only a side effect, originally having targeted another species.

Now that's thinking laterally. But entirely possible. Most diseases don't
cross species for some reason, but some do and it is possible that VITAS is
one of them. That could explain the chupacabras (and I'm now convinced
they are chimpanzee ghouls or the equivalent). But what species? Nothing
about a mass extinction of any specific species is mentioned in SR. And
Awakened critters just don't spring out of nothingness, they are all
"mutant" version of modern animals.

>> "This job has taken my dignity, my self-esteem, my creativity and my
>> precious time on this earth. YOU'VE TAKEN ALL I HAVE! THERE'S NOTHING
>> LEFT TO GIVE!!!"
>>
>> "The blood drive is next week; this year it's mandatory...and a
>three-pint
>> minimum."
> This is a bloody fucking hilarious quote.

Don't thank me, thank Scott Adams and Dilbert. That man is a messiah;
Wally is my hero and Catbert is my idol. There is supposedly going to be a
Dilbert cartoon on ABC prime time next fall; if they put it on the same
night as Dharma&Greg and The Drew Carey Show, that's one night I *won't* be
leaving the house.

Good points though.

Erik J.


"What was that popping sound?"

"A paradigm shifting without a clutch."
Message no. 4
From: Phil Levis <pal@**.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: Re: ED Races in SR; why it can't happen (long)
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 20:43:15 -0400
On Wed, 6 May 1998, Nexx wrote:

> ----------
> > From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
>
> > Who designed this virus and why?
> <snip dragons and IE's>
> I agree on the IE's, but there is a possibility that I think a lot of
> people overlook. Coincidence. VITAS could have coincidentally targeted
> those segments of the population that carried the windling\t'skrang
> capability (IIRC, Obsidimen are asexual, and born from their Liferock).
> The first plague, IMO, could have very likely been targeted at something
> else entirely, but came to humans.

There is, of course, another possibility behind the lack of T'skrang,
Obisidimen, and depending which side you take, Windlings. For the sake of
completeness, I'll assume that Faerie are not Windlings, and Windlings
have yet to appear.

One simple explanation is magic levels. Although magic levels are high,
they are not high enough for T'skrang, Obsidimen or Windlings to appear.
In the Denizens of Barsaive book, it is mentioned that with magic levels
dropping, T'skrang have a lower egg fertility rate. Each of these three
races are not necessarily directly related to humans; for this reason, it
is possible that their resurgence requires a higher magic level. For
example, I don't believe that the Obsidimen will necessarily appear at the
same time as dwarves and elves. Consider the length of mana cycles; it's
quite possible that T'skrang will appear in two or three hundred years;
with such a time scale, FASA can safely say that T'skrang will not appear
in Shadowrun.

I could certainly buy the possibility of IEs tailoring a virus to decimate
the T'ksrang. However, I severely doubt that it would be done to harm
Obsidimen and Windlings. Additionally, I doubt that an IE could do it
without dragons and other IEs noticing; the repercussions of some dragons
learning this would be immense. Additionally, I doubt that the virus could
be one hundred percent effective. Some possible T'skrang would survive.

If VITAS was indeed a something which was created by some to prevent the
appearance of T'skrang, I would postulate it was done by a single
individual. Although there is racial enmity between some elves and
T'skrang, I don't think it is great enough that a large group of IEs would
take this course of action. This may have changed, however, since the time
which Earthdawn takes place.

Perhaps the T'skrang and Obsidimen all died before the Fourth World ended?
It's certainly possible. We have yet to see those such as The Laughing Man
or Usmondo comment on their fate.

Phil
Message no. 5
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: ED Races in SR; why it can't happen (long)
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 19:26:44 -0400
At 08:43 PM 5/6/98 -0400, you wrote:

>One simple explanation is magic levels. Although magic levels are high,
>they are not high enough for T'skrang, Obsidimen or Windlings to appear.

This would appear to be obvious, but I'm not convinced it's true.

>In the Denizens of Barsaive book, it is mentioned that with magic levels
>dropping, T'skrang have a lower egg fertility rate.

AHA!! If their fertility rates drop with the level of magic, eventually
they could reach a point there they simply can't have children anymore.
Which would mean that would go extinct. No more t'skrang, because their
genetic code can't be passed down any farther.

Let's look at it this way. If a barghest is derived from a certain breed
of dog, then that breed of dog would go extinct and the only thing left
would be barghests. If barghests were to go extinct, there wouldn't be
anything left to return back to dogs when the magic dropped. It's a
hypothetical proposition anyway, and one that quite simply eliminates the
t'skrang from ever appearing in SR. They died with with Fourth Age.

>Each of these three
>races are not necessarily directly related to humans; for this reason, it
>is possible that their resurgence requires a higher magic level. For
>example, I don't believe that the Obsidimen will necessarily appear at the
>same time as dwarves and elves. Consider the length of mana cycles; it's
>quite possible that T'skrang will appear in two or three hundred years;
>with such a time scale, FASA can safely say that T'skrang will not appear
>in Shadowrun.

That's also true. But I honestly don't believe that they will appear.
They've gone the way of the dodo and the passenger pigeon. Lost but to the
annals of history.

Erik J.


"Oh my God, they killed Dunkelzahn! You bastards!!!"
Message no. 6
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: ED Races in SR; why it can't happen (long)
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 01:18:12 +0100
And verily, did Erik Jameson hastily scribble thusly...
|Let's look at it this way. If a barghest is derived from a certain breed
|of dog, then that breed of dog would go extinct and the only thing left
|would be barghests.

That's sloppy thinking I'm afraid.
Why wouldn't the dogs react to magic in the same way as the people?
Only a small percentage of the population gave birth to or goblinised into
metaraces, and the same could be said for the dogs.

Also, there is word that the magic dropped suddenly, NOT gradually.
If it was a gradual drop, it might have been the buffer zone needed for
their unborns to revert to the lower, non-magical race.

Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing the 3 missing races appear,
It'd bring on a whole new night of rage if they suddenly appeared in force
at another magic threshold....

<EGMG>
--
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