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Message no. 1
From: Michael Omillian <mcomilli@***.EDU>
Subject: Ed/Sr
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1993 23:07:37 -0500
Well Mark I think that shadowrn wouldn't exist if AD&D never became so
popular. After all they practicly started "role playing". Who incorporated all
the nasty little races and critters? Maybe TSR.(I Suppose So)
I have nothing wrong with Earthsdawn actually after writing my first
letter I went and bought the first novel. I like the Earthsdawn system, and
find it different, But this is Shadowrn! You don't see me talking about C'thulu
or Twight Light 2000, Dark Con., Any of the AD&D realms or vampire, werewolf, and
Mage. I like them all. BUT THIS IS SHADOWRN! Can we leave it that way
?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Message no. 2
From: Mark Imbriaco <mai@**.ODU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ed/Sr
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1993 23:12:56 -0500
On Wed, 3 Nov 1993, Michael Omillian wrote:

> Well Mark I think that shadowrn wouldn't exist if AD&D never became
> so popular. After all they practicly started "role playing". Who
> incorporated all the nasty little races and critters? Maybe TSR.(I
> Suppose So)

It looks like I misunderstood the gist of the original message..
I agree that TSRs D&D was pretty much the progenitor of most modern
Role playing, but I was just saying that they didn't come up with
the Races and such on their own..

Mark
Message no. 3
From: Role Playing Manager <moria@*****.EERIE.FR>
Subject: ED/SR
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1993 09:50:47 GMT
Hoi world chummers.

I follow the discussions on ED since the beginning ( I know that my
joke on links was too easy but I only own the 1st ED novel and I have not yet
finished it ), and I agree that some links between SR & ED seem to exist.
Moreover, it seems that ED can be the 4th world. But I was wondering if ED can
be the future of SR, that is to say, the 7th world ?


Ben - NightWolf

-=-=-

+-----------------------------+------------------------------------------------+
| Benjamin Legangneux | "How can you find your way in the shadows, |
| | If you have no light ?" |
| e-mail : moria@*****.fr | |
| legangne@*****.fr | Michael Styx - Tales of the Black Dove |
+-----------------------------+------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 4
From: Ioannis Fikouras <j07c@***.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Ed/Sr
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1993 15:31:48 +0100
No They most certainly DID NOT create the genre, they just
made RPG's a commercial product, a hit for the gaming industry.
As for the genre, that was created by people as Tolkien and Leiber
that is a fact.
--

Strong am I with the Force... but not that strong!
Twilight is upon me and soon night must fall.
That is the way of things ... the way of the Force.
Message no. 5
From: Mark Imbriaco <mai@**.ODU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ed/Sr
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1993 09:39:16 -0500
On Thu, 4 Nov 1993, Ioannis Fikouras wrote:

> No They most certainly DID NOT create the genre, they just
> made RPG's a commercial product, a hit for the gaming industry.
> As for the genre, that was created by people as Tolkien and Leiber
> that is a fact.

-THAT- is pretty much what I was getting at in my first response to this
thread..

Mark
Message no. 6
From: The Outsider <DHEIN@******.BITNET>
Subject: Re: ED/SR
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1993 22:00:23 EST
> Hoi world chummers.
>
> I follow the discussions on ED since the beginning ( I know that my
> joke on links was too easy but I only own the 1st ED novel and I have not yet
> finished it ), and I agree that some links between SR & ED seem to exist.
> Moreover, it seems that ED can be the 4th world. But I was wondering if ED can
> be the future of SR, that is to say, the 7th world ?
>
I would say not for the simple fact of the painting described in the
Tir Tairngire sourcebook. This was a painting of a beautiful eleven
woman with thorns protruding through her skin. This is obviously one of
the blood elves of Wyrm Wood. Probably Alachia since The Laughing Man
referred to her as "The Blood Queen", a name commonly used for Alachia.
The presence of this painting would mean that this woman existed in the
_past_. I doubt that the elves would do that to themselves twice.


The
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"Good...bad...I'm the guy with the gun." -- Ash, "Army of
Darkness"
Message no. 7
From: The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject: Re: ED/SR
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1993 23:46:01 GMT
>> Moreover, it seems that ED can be the 4th world. But I was wondering if ED can
>> be the future of SR, that is to say, the 7th world ?

Provided there are only two "modes", either high-mana or low-man, ED and SR
are both always even numbered, so a future ED would be more like the 8th world.

> I would say not for the simple fact of the painting described in the
>Tir Tairngire sourcebook. This was a painting of a beautiful elven. . .
>The presence of this painting would mean that this woman existed in the
>_past_. I doubt that the elves would do that to themselves twice.

Ah, but what if she exists in both the past AND the future, and simpl has not
come to power yet in SR? Then the painting could beof the past and ED could
be of the future. Or perhaps the Elves know things backwards through tme.


J Roberson
Message no. 8
From: The Outsider <DHEIN@******.BITNET>
Subject: Re: ED/SR
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1993 08:37:11 EST
> > I would say not for the simple fact of the painting described in the
> >Tir Tairngire sourcebook. This was a painting of a beautiful elven. . .
> >The presence of this painting would mean that this woman existed in the
> >_past_. I doubt that the elves would do that to themselves twice.
>
> Ah, but what if she exists in both the past AND the future, and simpl has not
> come to power yet in SR? Then the painting could beof the past and ED could
> be of the future. Or perhaps the Elves know things backwards through tme.

Come on! Do you seriously believe elves have that kind of power?
Do you believe the dwarves would let them live if they did?


The
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"Good...bad...I'm the guy with the gun." -- Ash, "Army of
Darkness"
Message no. 9
From: Ioannis Fikouras <j07c@****.ZFN.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: ED/SR
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1993 14:52:46 +0100
> > come to power yet in SR? Then the painting could beof the past and ED could
> > be of the future. Or perhaps the Elves know things backwards through tme.
>
> Come on! Do you seriously believe elves have that kind of power?
> Do you believe the dwarves would let them live if they did?

Why what do that dwarves have to do with it?
Dont tell me u believe that Elf/Dwarv hatred crap!!!

--

Strong am I with the Force... but not that strong!
Twilight is upon me and soon night must fall.
That is the way of things ... the way of the Force.
Message no. 10
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: ED/SR
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1993 03:20:19 +0930
>
>> > I would say not for the simple fact of the painting described in the
>> >Tir Tairngire sourcebook. This was a painting of a beautiful elven. . .
>> >The presence of this painting would mean that this woman existed in the
>> >_past_. I doubt that the elves would do that to themselves twice.
>>
>> Ah, but what if she exists in both the past AND the future, and simpl has not
>> come to power yet in SR? Then the painting could beof the past and ED could
>> be of the future. Or perhaps the Elves know things backwards through tme.
>
>Come on! Do you seriously believe elves have that kind of power?
>Do you believe the dwarves would let them live if they did?
>

Based on the impression I got from reading "Harlequin", and the (admittedly
patchwork) knowledge I've got from ED, I would refuse to rule out ANYTHING to
the elves. I firmly believe that FASA has Harlequin & Ehran & others being from
the last cycle of magic (wether this is ED or not, I don't know). I played them
as damn near omnipotent beings when I GM'd "Harlequin", with Initate levels
somewhere in the hundreds (at least). I also play the Greater Dragons in this
fashion.
As for what this kind of power means: well, the Great Ghost Dance was worked
out within a couple of years by humans. Even if they had a framework handed
down via cultural records, it would still need adjustment. (Unless they got
help from the elves, of course... :).
And if the elves had this kind of power, I'd like to know how the dwarves would
be able to stop them living...



--
Robert Watkins
bob@******.cs.ntu.edu.au
************ It wouldn't be luck if you could get out of life alive. ***********
Message no. 11
From: The Outsider <DHEIN@******.BITNET>
Subject: Re: ED/SR
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1993 15:24:00 EST
> > > come to power yet in SR? Then the painting could beof the past and ED coul
> > > be of the future. Or perhaps the Elves know things backwards through tme.
> >
> > Come on! Do you seriously believe elves have that kind of power?
> > Do you believe the dwarves would let them live if they did?
>
> Why what do that dwarves have to do with it?
> Dont tell me u believe that Elf/Dwarv hatred crap!!!

Sure! It's great for easy characterization:
Role Playing Notes: Hates Elves


The
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| | | | | |__ | | \ |_ |__| <DHEIN@******.BITNET>
|__| |__| | __| _|_ |__/ |__ | \
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Good...bad...I'm the guy with the gun." -- Ash, "Army of
Darkness"
Message no. 12
From: The Outsider <DHEIN@******.BITNET>
Subject: Re: ED/SR
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1993 15:19:36 EST
> Based on the impression I got from reading "Harlequin", and the (admittedly
> patchwork) knowledge I've got from ED, I would refuse to rule out ANYTHING to
> the elves. I firmly believe that FASA has Harlequin & Ehran & others being
fro
> the last cycle of magic (wether this is ED or not, I don't know). I played the
> as damn near omnipotent beings when I GM'd "Harlequin", with Initate levels
> somewhere in the hundreds (at least). I also play the Greater Dragons in this
> fashion.
> As for what this kind of power means: well, the Great Ghost Dance was worked
> out within a couple of years by humans. Even if they had a framework handed
> down via cultural records, it would still need adjustment. (Unless they got
> help from the elves, of course... :).

"Elves are anemic and weak. They are powerful only in their own
imaginations." -- Dragon Magazine

> And if the elves had this kind of power, I'd like to know how the dwarves woul
> be able to stop them living...

They'd kick the hell out of their shins.


The
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--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Good...bad...I'm the guy with the gun." -- Ash, "Army of
Darkness"
Message no. 13
From: It is impossible to sneak up on monsters who have a patio
Subject: Re: ED/SR
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1993 13:55:46 -0500
All this talk of ED being the Eighth World, instead of the Fourth, has
got me wondering.
Not about ED, mind you. I haven't even seen the damn thing yet, much
less purchased it (Ah, the joys of an isolated college community). But
rather, about SR's future.
It seems pretty clear that FASA intended for ED to be the Fourth World,
at least, IMHO. With that in mind, what would the Eighth World be like?
Or better yet, what will the Sixth World be like, say, three or four hundred
years from now?
I've been kicking the idea around of running a variant game of Shadowrun
next summer, set farther in the future. And I'd like your input. What's the
world gonna be like a few hundred years after the Awakening?
Will there still be Megacorps?
Will there still be a UCAS?
How wil the NAN nations, and the Tirs, and Aztlan change?
Will these Horror things from ED make an appearence? (That's my read of the
Harlequin story, although I know almost nothing about Earthdawn)
Will poeple finally figure out that Elves are immortal, or will it still be
a secret?

If anyone's interested in exploring these notions with me, please reply
via private Email, as this doesn't really pertain to the list.
Or would people rather talk about it here?

Phelan
Message no. 14
From: Role Playing Manager <moria@*****.EERIE.FR>
Subject: Re: ED/SR
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1993 22:08:00 GMT
I must say that all this stuff is a good idea.

Let's have a try!! 8)

Moreover, what's this Harlequin story?


Ben - NightWolf

-=-=-

+-----------------------------+----------------------------------------------+
| Benjamin Legangneux | "How can you find your way in the shadows, |
| | If you have no light ?" |
| e-mail : moria@*****.fr | |
| legangne@*****.fr | Michael Styx - Tales of the Black Dove |
+-----------------------------+----------------------------------------------+
Message no. 15
From: The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject: Re: ED/SR
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1993 16:53:17 GMT
>>Come on! Do you seriously believe elves have that kind of power?
>>Do you believe the dwarves would let them live if they did?

I don't see any reason why Elves wouldn't have that kind of power, nor do
I see a reason dwarves would be aware of it, much less holding antipathy
toward them if they did.

J Roberson
Message no. 16
From: The Outsider <DHEIN@******.BITNET>
Subject: Re: ED/SR
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1993 18:06:15 EST
> I don't see any reason why Elves wouldn't have that kind of power, nor do
> I see a reason dwarves would be aware of it, much less holding antipathy
> toward them if they did.

IT WAS A JOKE!!! A JOKE! A JOKE! A JOKE! A JOKE!


The
__ ___ __ ___ ___ ___ ___
| | | | | |__ | | \ |_ |__| <DHEIN@******.BITNET>
|__| |__| | __| _|_ |__/ |__ | \
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Good...bad...I'm the guy with the gun." -- Ash, "Army of
Darkness"
Message no. 17
From: The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject: Re: ED/SR
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1993 18:22:19 GMT
I think the idea of extending Srun's history into the furture is neat. . though
you are indeed taking a chance on how compatible it'll be with future releases.

IMO, that's the way to go if you like introducing "borderline" technology that
isn't really appropriate for the world as described but certainly fits in with
hints regarding research and such.

One thing you'll have to work out is what happens in space. If mages really
can't go there, then extraterrestrial outposts are going to be like the
"good old" days of the fifth world; I imagine some runners and professional
law enforcement/spy/merc types who specialize in running in non-magical
arenas. This condition would exist until mages were born on colonies
sufficiently developed to support an adequate mana field, or a way around it
is found .
(OOPS. I guess mages can travel, they just can work magic in space).



J Roberson
Message no. 18
From: The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject: Re: ED/SR
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1993 22:02:31 GMT
I'm forwarding this to the list. If no one picks it up, I guess we
can go private again.

>Seattle will secede at some point-it has to. It too will have to change
>significantly. It can't expand it's territory, so it can never be self-
>sufficient. It may even be abandoned.

Why would Seattle have to secede? Consider West Berlin, or the area claimed
by prewar Germany that was surrounded by Poland? There is a lot of precedent
for these national "outposts", including Casablanca. Of course, there are
many "Free City" precedents as well, usually cities that were the largest or
singular source of law and order in a region, such as Krakow in the 1800s or
the fictional Greyhawk.

Also, to secede Seattle must be able to support itself somehow. Maybe not
complete self-sufficiency (I don't believe any nation or corp is self
sufficient, given the trade grid) but it would be competing on a different
level than before. If Seattle couldn't defend itself or hold its own against
the corporations and surrounding nations, it would become run by them and
life would probably be worse.

In short, Seattle could secede, but I think a lot of other changes would have
to come about. And the citizens may be too lazy to do so unless the UCAS
becomes a burden to the metroplex.


J Roberson

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about ED/SR, you may also be interested in:

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Thwap!