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Message no. 1
From: Simon Nixon a_9365@*******.com
Subject: ED\SR - Denairastas Clan
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 11:20:57 BST
This is a question for anyone who knows about Earthdawn, particularly our
newly title ED Guru Josh. In the Dragons sourcebook it mentions the
Denairastas Clan of Iopos.

I've never played ED but I've been told some stuff by people over the web
and put a few things together myself. So, I've come to understand that the
leaders of the Denairastas clan are Immortal Humans, made by some Great
Dragon referred to as the Outcast. Apparently the Outcast went against the
Dragon Councils rulings in mating with other races, after the Elves/Blood
Wood debacle, so they tossed him outta the club so to speak. Can you tell me
if this is right so far and any other useful info you might have on the
subject.

Reason is is that I've decided to make the dragon head of the Black Lodge
with his chief Immortal Human as the Penultimate Master/Grand High Poohba
whatever the title is. Links in nicely with the immortal leaders idea and
the anti-elves stricture. See the Threats sourcebook.

Cheers.
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Message no. 2
From: NeoJudas neojudas@******************.com
Subject: ED\SR - Denairastas Clan
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 06:17:34 -0500
From: "Simon Nixon" <a_9365@*******.com>
Subject: ED\SR - Denairastas Clan


> This is a question for anyone who knows about Earthdawn, particularly our
> newly title ED Guru Josh. In the Dragons sourcebook it mentions the
> Denairastas Clan of Iopos.
>
> I've never played ED but I've been told some stuff by people over the web
> and put a few things together myself. So, I've come to understand that the
> leaders of the Denairastas clan are Immortal Humans, made by some Great
> Dragon referred to as the Outcast. Apparently the Outcast went against the
> Dragon Councils rulings in mating with other races, after the Elves/Blood
> Wood debacle, so they tossed him outta the club so to speak. Can you tell
me > if this is right so far and any other useful info you might have on the
> subject.
>
> Reason is is that I've decided to make the dragon head of the Black Lodge
> with his chief Immortal Human as the Penultimate Master/Grand High Poohba
> whatever the title is. Links in nicely with the immortal leaders idea and
> the anti-elves stricture. See the Threats sourcebook.


The only other person that really considered this concept was AE
(abortionengine@*******.com) who isn't around that often here anymore. I
didn't agree with the idea of making the head of the clan the head of the
Black Lodge, but given what to me seems like a limited focus group at the
time, this wouldn't surprise me much at all.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
NeoJudas ("K" to Friends)
"Children of the Kernel: Reborn"
(neojudas@******************.com)
Hoosier Hacker House (http://www.hoosierhackerhouse.com/)
Message no. 3
From: TalonMail@***.com TalonMail@***.com
Subject: ED\SR - Denairastas Clan
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:32:54 EDT
"Simon Nixon" <a_9365@*******.com> wrote:
>I've never played ED but I've been told some stuff by people over the web

>and put a few things together myself. So, I've come to understand that the

>leaders of the Denairastas clan are Immortal Humans, made by some Great

>Dragon referred to as the Outcast. Apparently the Outcast went against the

>Dragon Councils rulings in mating with other races, after the Elves/Blood

>Wood debacle, so they tossed him outta the club so to speak. Can you tell me

>if this is right so far and any other useful info you might have on the

>subject.

(Note that the following is in no way official, merely IMHO, particularly in
light of Living Room Games' acquisition of the Earthdawn license.)

The Denairastas are not immortal, although they are dragon-kin. They have a
greatly increased life-span (probably about four times that of a normal
human) but they do age and eventually die (although few of them ever die of
old age thanks to the intrigue within the family). I'm sure Uhl Denairastas
and more than a few of his kin would love to become immortal, however, and
they're probably working (in Earthdawn) on ways to do just that.
Interestingly enough, one of the things the great dragons of Barsaive did to
balance out the advantage of the Denairastas' long life-spans was to give the
kings of Throal potions to extend their lives (via Icewing), allowing them to
take advantage of the same "long view" as the Denairastas.

Unless they somehow succeeded in discovering a source of immortality, it's
unlikely any of the Denairastas survived the pass of the Fourth World. Of
course, if one or more of them DID discover a means of immortality, odds are
good that it involves a lot of nasty blood magic rituals, which would put
them in a great position to be involved with the Black Lodge (or similar
organization) if you so desired.

Maybe one day I'll get to write that sourcebook on the Denairastas and Iopos
that I discussed with FASA before Earthdawn was canceled.

Steve Kenson

Talon Studio
http://members.aol.com/talonmail
Message no. 4
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: ED\SR - Denairastas Clan
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 17:45:55 GMT
>From: "Simon Nixon" <a_9365@*******.com>
>This is a question for anyone who knows about Earthdawn, particularly our
>newly title ED Guru Josh. In the Dragons sourcebook it mentions the
>Denairastas Clan of Iopos.

Spiler space for Darren's benifit; do not read what follows














>I've never played ED but I've been told some stuff by people over the web
>and put a few things together myself. So, I've come to understand that the
>leaders of the Denairastas clan are Immortal Humans, made by some Great
>Dragon referred to as the Outcast. Apparently the Outcast went against the
>Dragon Councils rulings in mating with other races, after the Elves/Blood
>Wood debacle, so they tossed him outta the club so to speak. Can you tell
>me
>if this is right so far and any other useful info you might have on the
>subject.

The Outcast was the creator of the hydra and the first dragon to take human
form, he mated with a human female and was banished from dragon society.

Me and the other GM in my group have a kind of secretive GM's council where
we swap ideas for our respective campaigns and he is using The Outcast as
follows; The Outcast contracted the draconian version of HMHVV and is now
more than slightly crazy, he spent the fifth world (ours) trapped in human
form whilst the others were asleep. During this time he killed many
dragons, his greatest achievement being the slumbering Icewing. He is
insanely arrogant and destructive, he is wanted dead by all other dragons
and he has taken an interest in our group in Chicago ;)>

>Reason is is that I've decided to make the dragon head of the Black Lodge
>with his chief Immortal Human as the Penultimate Master/Grand High Poohba
>whatever the title is. Links in nicely with the immortal leaders idea and
>the anti-elves stricture. See the Threats sourcebook.

I haven't got the threats book as such but it sounds like it could work just
fine.

Phil

These are my principles; if you don't like them I have some others.
-Groucho Marx

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Message no. 5
From: Drew Curtis dcurtis@***.net
Subject: ED\SR - Denairastas Clan
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:23:01 -0400 (EDT)
On Mon, 26 Jun 2000 TalonMail@***.com wrote:

> Unless they somehow succeeded in discovering a source of immortality, it's
> unlikely any of the Denairastas survived the pass of the Fourth World. Of
> course, if one or more of them DID discover a means of immortality, odds are
> good that it involves a lot of nasty blood magic rituals, which would put
> them in a great position to be involved with the Black Lodge (or similar
> organization) if you so desired.
>
This would be an interesting way to explain how HMHVV originated...

Drew Curtis, President, DCR.NET (502) 226 3376
Local Internet access: Frankfort Lawrenceburg Shelbyville Owenton
Louisville Lexington Versailles Nicholasville Midway

http://www.fark.com: If it's not news, it's fark.
Message no. 6
From: Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject: ED\SR - Denairastas Clan
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:26:22 -0400
Around 02:23 PM 6/26/00, Drew Curtis was thinking about:
>On Mon, 26 Jun 2000 TalonMail@***.com wrote:
>
> > Unless they somehow succeeded in discovering a source of immortality, it's
> > unlikely any of the Denairastas survived the pass of the Fourth World. Of
> > course, if one or more of them DID discover a means of immortality,
> odds are
> > good that it involves a lot of nasty blood magic rituals, which would put
> > them in a great position to be involved with the Black Lodge (or similar
> > organization) if you so desired.
> >
>This would be an interesting way to explain how HMHVV originated...

That's just eeeevil. I love it. ;)

But don't they have vampires in ED?

Sommers
Aerospace engineers build weapon systems. Civil engineers build targets.
Message no. 7
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: ED\SR - Denairastas Clan
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:09:40 -0500
On Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:26:22 -0400 Sommers <sommers@*****.umich.edu>
writes:
> Around 02:23 PM 6/26/00, Drew Curtis was thinking about:
> >On Mon, 26 Jun 2000 TalonMail@***.com wrote:
<SNIP Denairastas clan discovering immortality being the source of HMHVV
...>
> That's just eeeevil. I love it. ;)
>
> But don't they have vampires in ED?

Nope. :)

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

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Message no. 8
From: NeoJudas neojudas@******************.com
Subject: ED\SR - Denairastas Clan
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:33:25 -0500
From: <TalonMail@***.com>
Subject: Re: ED\SR - Denairastas Clan


> (Note that the following is in no way official, merely IMHO, particularly
in
> light of Living Room Games' acquisition of the Earthdawn license.)
>
> The Denairastas are not immortal, although they are dragon-kin. They have
a
> greatly increased life-span (probably about four times that of a normal
> human) but they do age and eventually die (although few of them ever die
of
> old age thanks to the intrigue within the family). I'm sure Uhl
Denairastas

Uhl??? Oh geesh, I never really connected that as being part of his name.
Makes me rethink something from our games entirely.

> and more than a few of his kin would love to become immortal, however, and
> they're probably working (in Earthdawn) on ways to do just that.
> Interestingly enough, one of the things the great dragons of Barsaive did
to
> balance out the advantage of the Denairastas' long life-spans was to give
the
> kings of Throal potions to extend their lives (via Icewing), allowing them
to
> take advantage of the same "long view" as the Denairastas.

Which is an interesting twist on how to balance the scales of power (pun?).
Give the others potions of longevity (for lack of better terms) but probably
don't fill them in on all the strings that come attached to their usage.

> Unless they somehow succeeded in discovering a source of immortality, it's
> unlikely any of the Denairastas survived the pass of the Fourth World. Of
> course, if one or more of them DID discover a means of immortality, odds
are
> good that it involves a lot of nasty blood magic rituals, which would put
> them in a great position to be involved with the Black Lodge (or similar
> organization) if you so desired.
>
> Maybe one day I'll get to write that sourcebook on the Denairastas and
Iopos
> that I discussed with FASA before Earthdawn was canceled.

If you do Steve, *please* (begs aloud) don't make them mixed up with the
Black Lodge in a direct sense.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
NeoJudas ("K" to Friends)
"Children of the Kernel: Reborn"
(neojudas@******************.com)
Hoosier Hacker House (http://www.hoosierhackerhouse.com/)
Message no. 9
From: Josh Harrison mataxes@****.net
Subject: ED\SR - Denairastas Clan
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 22:00:45 -0400
----- Original Message -----
From: Simon Nixon <a_9365@*******.com>
> I've never played ED but I've been told some stuff by people over the web
> and put a few things together myself. So, I've come to understand that the
> leaders of the Denairastas clan are Immortal Humans, made by some Great
> Dragon referred to as the Outcast.

That is correct. However, it is never said the Denairastas are immortal (as
was pointed out). I don't think it *too* much of a stretch to say it is
theoretically possible they might be kicking around in 2060. Incidentally,
the Dragon is named Denairastas as well -- that's where the clan got its
name.

> Apparently the Outcast went against the
> Dragon Councils rulings in mating with other races, after the Elves/Blood
> Wood debacle, so they tossed him outta the club so to speak.

The Blood Wood incident had nothing to do with the Draconic Council's ban on
siring dragon-kin. The Blood Wood came about because Alachia refused to
accept the Theran Empire's help to protect Wyrm Wood -- the exact reason
behind the schism in the Elven Court has never been fully revealed. As the
saying goes, though, there is nothing more bitter than a family spat.

> Can you tell me
> if this is right so far and any other useful info you might have on the
> subject.

You're right about the Denairastas being sired by "The Outcast", and their
"family ties" with the IEs (indirectly).

> Reason is is that I've decided to make the dragon head of the Black Lodge
> with his chief Immortal Human as the Penultimate Master/Grand High Poohba
> whatever the title is. Links in nicely with the immortal leaders idea and
> the anti-elves stricture. See the Threats sourcebook.

Hmmm... interesting idea -- I have to say I kind of like it. The only
difficulty I see is that the Denairastas (in ED) aren't really anti-elf.
They want to conquer all of Barsiave, and the Blood Wood isn't really an
obstacle to that (as long as the Wood is left alone, Alachia will pretty
much let the rest of the planet go hang). In fact, there is a limited degree
of trade and interaction between the Denairastas and the certain families in
the Wood.

Most of the animosity is directed at the Kingdom of Throal, which is being
manipulated by the Draconic Council. Throal and Iopos are pieces in a game
being played by Icewing, Mountainshadow and the other Barsaivian Greats
against the Outcast. The Wood has no active link with any Dragon, and
therefore isn't really a piece in that game.

It is possible though, that the diplomatic ties between Blood Wood and Iopos
is an attempt by Denairastas to subvert the Wood for his own purposes. I
doubt Alamaise would be happpy about that, he has a personal interest in
regaining control of the Wood -- it used to be his domain (at least
according to the Blood Wood SB).

Hope this extra info helps.

-- Josh Harrison -- mataxes@****.net
"When Fate taps you on the shoulder, you'd best pay attention.
Unfortunately, she has the blasted habit of tapping you on the
opposite shoulder, so that when you turn around she's actually
on your other side, giggling like a schoolgirl. I hate that."
Message no. 10
From: TalonMail@***.com TalonMail@***.com
Subject: ED\SR - Denairastas Clan
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 16:03:45 EDT
In a message dated 6/27/00 3:00:50 PM, "NeoJudas"
<neojudas@******************.com> writes:
>> Maybe one day I'll get to write that sourcebook on the Denairastas and
Iopos
>> that I discussed with FASA before Earthdawn was canceled.
>
>If you do Steve, *please* (begs aloud) don't make them mixed up with the
>Black Lodge in a direct sense.

I have no plans along those lines. In fact, I have a pretty complete outline
for a Denairastas/Iopos sourcebook already written and it's completely
Earthdawn-based. While the SR/ED "easter eggs" are fun when they're relevant,
I see no need to put them in a product just for the sake of putting them in.

I should also mention that there are no plans at the moment for me to write
anything more for Earthdawn. It depends entirely on Living Room Games and
their plans for the future of the line. They may come out with an Iopos
sourcebook that's completely different from what I have in mind, or take
things in a different direction altogether.

Steve Kenson

Talon Studio
http://members.aol.com/talonmail
Message no. 11
From: MC23 mc23@**********.com
Subject: ED\SR - Denairastas Clan
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 12:20:20 -0400
Once upon a time, Steve Kenson wrote;

>I should also mention that there are no plans at the moment for me to write
>anything more for Earthdawn. It depends entirely on Living Room Games and
>their plans for the future of the line. They may come out with an Iopos
>sourcebook that's completely different from what I have in mind, or take
>things in a different direction altogether.

Should we start a write in campaign to see yours gets used?

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"I know
I GOTTA BELIEVE !"
-Parappa the Rapper
I am MC23
Message no. 12
From: vocenoctum@****.com vocenoctum@****.com
Subject: ED\SR - Denairastas Clan
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 20:46:05 -0400
On Mon, 26 Jun 2000 22:00:45 -0400 "Josh Harrison" <mataxes@****.net>
writes:
> The Blood Wood incident had nothing to do with the Draconic
> Council's ban on
> siring dragon-kin. The Blood Wood came about because Alachia refused
> to
> accept the Theran Empire's help to protect Wyrm Wood -- the exact
> reason
> behind the schism in the Elven Court has never been fully revealed.
> As the
> saying goes, though, there is nothing more bitter than a family
> spat.
>

I seem to recall it also having to do with the Immortal Elves rebelling
against teh dragons when they awoke at the start of the 4th world, or
something like that.

Just remember, Lofwyr is Alamaise's brother, and Alamaise sired the IE's,
so...Lofwyr is sorta Harlequins great uncle? :-)

Vocenoctum
<http://members.xoom.com/vocenoctum>;

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Message no. 13
From: NeoJudas neojudas@******************.com
Subject: ED\SR - Denairastas Clan
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 20:39:48 -0500
From: <vocenoctum@****.com>
Subject: Re: ED\SR - Denairastas Clan


> I seem to recall it also having to do with the Immortal Elves rebelling
> against teh dragons when they awoke at the start of the 4th world, or
> something like that.
>
> Just remember, Lofwyr is Alamaise's brother, and Alamaise sired the IE's,
> so...Lofwyr is sorta Harlequins great uncle? :-)

Well, at least he's a RICH UNCLE!!! ;-)

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
NeoJudas ("K" to Friends)
"Children of the Kernel: Reborn"
(neojudas@******************.com)
Hoosier Hacker House (http://www.hoosierhackerhouse.com/)
Message no. 14
From: Josh Harrison mataxes@****.net
Subject: ED\SR - Denairastas Clan
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 22:38:10 -0400
----- Original Message -----
From: <vocenoctum@****.com>
> I seem to recall it also having to do with the Immortal Elves rebelling
> against teh dragons when they awoke at the start of the 4th world, or
> something like that.

Well, in all honesty the history behind this relationship is a bit fuzzy.
Here's what is revealed in the Blood Wood SB for Earthdawn.

Back in the ancient, legendary days of ED, the Elven Nation of Shosara began
to stray from the ways of the Court. The Queen at the time, Dallia, did not
punish them right away, but instead chose to travel to the distant land and
see with her own eyes before judging their fate. They were two days from the
Wood when they encountered the Great Dragon Alamaise. The Queen bowed
politely to the Wyrm, and bid him a good day.

Alamaise claimed sovereignty over Wyrm Wood and its inhabitants, claiming he
had given the people of the Wood life. Dallia resonded that the Passions
(ED's "gods") had created the elves. Alamaise claimed he had prompted the
Passions to do that, but Dallia "heard the lie in his words." She refused to
bow to the Dragon, and so Alamaise destroyed the Queen and half her
entourage. Only the intervention of Jaspree and Astendar (two Passions)
saved the lives of the others.

Keep in mind this is the tale as told by the elves -- it is this reason the
Dragons are their enemies. Here's my theory on what actually happened:

At the end of the Age of Dragons (aka the Second World) the Wyrms went into
hibernation. Their servants (the dragon-kin) continued to thrive, and in the
intervening millennia came to rule. When the dragons woke up at the start of
the Age of Legend (the Fourth World, aka Earthdawn) the dragon-kin didn't
want to give up their cushy jobs.

The story of Alamaise and Dallia provides some interesting insight if looked
at from both sides of the issue. It seems that Alamaise sired the Immortal
Elves of Wyrm Wood (Alachia and others). When he returned to his domain,
Dallia refused. I imagine that only the immortals knew the truth of the
matter -- according to the Elven Court, Alamaise committed an unprovoked
atrocity, and caused the rivalry between the elves and the dragons. The
dragons were trying to reassert their dominance, and their children wouldn't
allow it. It was this rebellion that caused the ban on dragon-kin, as you
say.

> Just remember, Lofwyr is Alamaise's brother, and Alamaise sired the IE's,
> so...Lofwyr is sorta Harlequins great uncle? :-)

Well... Alamaise wasn't the only Wyrm that sired dragon-kin (at least, this
is implied in the Dragons SB). It may be that only the elves were granted
immortality from their draconic heritage, and the other kin died out. It may
also be that it isn't dragon blood that causes IEs, but something else
entirely. The cause has never been openly stated, merely implied.

I would imagine that if the IEs are in fact the first generation of
dragon-kin, more than one line exists; not all of them are descended from
Alamaise. So it is *possible* that Lofwyr is Harlequin's uncle (after a
fashion) but I wouldn't bet hard money on that. Harlequin is from Sereatha,
and so could very well be descended from another draconic line entirely.
Indeed, given Sereatha's geographic location, he could be descended from
Lofwyr.

Just some thoughts.

-- Josh
Message no. 15
From: vocenoctum@****.com vocenoctum@****.com
Subject: ED\SR - Denairastas Clan
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 17:11:52 -0400
On Fri, 30 Jun 2000 22:38:10 -0400 "Josh Harrison" <mataxes@****.net>
writes:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <vocenoctum@****.com>
> > I seem to recall it also having to do with the Immortal Elves
> rebelling
> > against teh dragons when they awoke at the start of the 4th world,
> or
> > something like that.
>
> Well, in all honesty the history behind this relationship is a bit
> fuzzy.

I'm mainly going by Alamaise's entry in Dragon's. It paints him as the
main progeninator of the IE's. (not all dragon-kin, but the group of IE's
that is central to the story)

I think there have been other dragon-kin (perhaps the T'Skrang of
Syrtis..) but that the only ones that have the "immortality gene" are the
lines descended from Alamamaise.
Taking the Dragon's side of things is not exactly a sure thing of course,
but their "side" seems to tie in better IMO.
:-)

Vocenoctum
<http://members.xoom.com/vocenoctum>;

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