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Message no. 1
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Education
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 12:15:17 +1100
Alright, I had an idea last night.

Stop laughing!

Anyway, it went like this: there is very little in the way of published
FASA material on the education system in the 2050s. I'd like to rectify
that.

However, I need input from all the listmembers about this. What I need
to know is:

How does the education systems (specifically secondary and tertiary)
work in your country/locality? Eg. What sort of courses do you have to
do to get a University degree?

And what's your take on what this would be like in 60 years time?

Replies can go to me personally, or be discussed on the list.

Come on, get talking. :)


Lady Jestyr

-----------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect in a world full of icebergs
-----------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503/
-----------------------------------------------
Remember, no matter what they say, you can
never have enough sugar. - Michael
-----------------------------------------------
Message no. 2
From: Tim Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Education
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 17:50:53 -0800
On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, Lady Jestyr wrote:

> Alright, I had an idea last night.
>
> Stop laughing!
>
> Anyway, it went like this: there is very little in the way of published
> FASA material on the education system in the 2050s. I'd like to rectify
> that.
>
> However, I need input from all the listmembers about this. What I need
> to know is:
>
> How does the education systems (specifically secondary and tertiary)
> work in your country/locality? Eg. What sort of courses do you have to
> do to get a University degree?

Well, I can only comment on the US's system...which at the university
level, varies quite dramatically in what you have to take to get a degree
once you leave the realm of the "general education" requirements that are
pretty much standard across the board. For my degree I'll end up taking
about 98 "units" (I'll get that later) of courses that directly relate to
my degree, about 20 "units" that support the previous courses, and about
80 units of pure miscellaneous "general education" that has no real impact
on my degree, but makes for a <quote> Well rounded Human being </quote>.
Each "unit" of course work is roughly equal to 10 hours of actual in-class
time.

In a standard Computer Science degree (the one that I'm most familiar
with..), the course work covers all aspects of basic programming, computer
logic, a bit of circuitry design, compiler and operating system
design/programming, machine language, algorithm design, networks,
graphics, simulation, AI, physics, a bit of chemistry and about
30 units of math (ranging from calculus to statistics)...plus the general
education junk.

But of course in order to GET INTO a university, one has to complete 4
years of "high school" (or secondary school?), during which you'd need to
take 4 years of literature classes, 2+ years of math, 3-4 years of science
(biology, chemistry, physics, etc..), 2 years of some sort of art-type
courses, and 2-3 years of history/government.

Although most of the high school course work can be taken at a "junior" or
"Community" college, from which you can transfer to a traditional 4-year
(in most cases a misnomer..as many people take 5+ years to finish)
university.

>
> And what's your take on what this would be like in 60 years time?

In 60+ years? I guess those who actually RECIEVE a higher education might
spend time in a corporate university/academy, while the rest would simply
learn enough simple language/literacy to function in their jobs (which
would be a whole lot less than is needed now).

Higher education might take on a more private approach, where only the
wealthy and/or corp sponsored would have access to it.

But I guess this all depends on your view of how the SR world works..

>
> Lady Jestyr
>


~Tim
Message no. 3
From: Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject: Re: Education
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 23:07:09 -0800
At 12:15 2/14/97 +1100, Lady Jestyr wrote:
>Anyway, it went like this: there is very little in the way of published
>FASA material on the education system in the 2050s. I'd like to rectify
>that.

One thing that's come up in the process of contemplating life for Orks
and Trolls is that they don't live long enough (and they mature early
enough) to make college a bad proposition. I expect that the goblin
types have a strong tendency to go directly into apprenticeships (a
system still valid in Germany, I believe, and probably very popular
in the Troll Kingdom of the Black Forest).

--
%%% Max Rible % slothman@*********.org % http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman %%%
%%% "Don't keep all your bats in one belfry." - me %%%
Message no. 4
From: Technomancer <arvanit@***.UCH.GR>
Subject: Re: Education
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 12:08:40 +0200
On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, Lady Jestyr wrote:

>
> How does the education systems (specifically secondary and tertiary)
> work in your country/locality? Eg. What sort of courses do you have to
> do to get a University degree?
>

[skip first 12 years of a life (half or more of them going to school :( )
Here in Greece you have 3 years of Gymnasium (basic maths,physics
chemistry, and language plus misc. such as Geography, History, Biology and
Ancient Greek).
Then you have 3 years of Lysium (advanced maths mostly, and a recite of
Ancient Greek, plus more detailed physics, chemistry and Biology, as well
as Modern History).
You then give nation wide exams and if you get high enough results you end
up in the university (though not always in the school you wanted).

I guess in 60 years the university would be more open, and private
universities would allow much a higher percentage of the population to get
higher education.

As for the university now:
You have to pass certain courses and also a number of optional ones.
However the optional ones are totaly up to the student to choose, with a
limitation on the kind of subject. (eg. I (Computer Science) must take 7
optional CS cources and 2 Non-CS)

PS: Since I am speaking for Greece, things won't change much here. (They
never do.)
PPS: I guess a lot of the education would be held via Matrix
representation, especialy in the final stages. So the student would just
stay home and download/upload the lectures/exercises.

*********************************************************************
* Technomancer * Modesty is one of my countless virtues *
* arvanit@***.uch.gr *
* http://www.csd.uch.gr/~arvanit/ *
*********************************************************************
Message no. 5
From: Droopy <droopy@*******.NB.NET>
Subject: Re: Education
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 08:35:30 +0000
> From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
> Subject: Education

> How does the education systems (specifically secondary and tertiary)
> work in your country/locality? Eg. What sort of courses do you have to
> do to get a University degree?
>
> And what's your take on what this would be like in 60 years time?

I would imagine that the classrooms of today will be almost
non-existant by 2050. With the advent of teleconferencing and
worldwide classrooms, not to mention the increase in technology, I'd
figure that virtual classrooms would be the ticket. Even today there
are some really in depth courses available by mail/cable/videotape
and the trend is on the rise now.

Just my .02


--Droopy
droopy@**.net
Message no. 6
From: Droopy <droopy@*******.NB.NET>
Subject: Re: Education
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 08:35:30 +0000
> From: Tim Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
> Subject: Re: Education

> In a standard Computer Science degree (the one that I'm most familiar
> with..), the course work covers all aspects of basic programming, computer
> logic, a bit of circuitry design, compiler and operating system
> design/programming, machine language, algorithm design, networks,
> graphics, simulation, AI, physics, a bit of chemistry and about
> 30 units of math (ranging from calculus to statistics)...plus the general
> education junk.

Which somehow makes one a more qualified tech than someone with
Electronics in tech school and 10 years practical experience...but I
digress.

It does bring me to another point, though. Many people out there
have a collection of skills and knowledge that are not quantified on
paper. Games are similar in general (imagine taking all of the
skills, etc you have and trying to squeeze them into a SR character)
and I find even open systems like SR to be somewhat limiting in that
aspect.

The skill web helps a lot, but doesn't really cover this. I've been
thinking about setting up a system that takes this into account
without creating a monster. Sort of like a general area of knowledge
that is broader and shallower than an actual skill.

Ideas anyone?


--Droopy
droopy@**.net
Message no. 7
From: Mark McLaughlin <mmclaugh@*******.EENG.DCU.IE>
Subject: Re: Education
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 14:22:49 -0800
Droopy wrote:
>
> > From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
> > Subject: Education

> I would imagine that the classrooms of today will be almost
> non-existant by 2050.
> --Droopy
> droopy@**.net

Yes and today we have the technology to destroy the planet but that
doesent mean we re going to do it.. And remember humans are social
animals they could never go through school on their own...

just my .02

Mark McL
Message no. 8
From: Mark McKenna <mmckenn@*****.BGSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Education
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 13:42:11 -0500
In regards to the classroom issue teleconferencing would be the key, but
as a Sociology major would humans stick with a failing forced education
system, I think not more than likey the future education is either forced,
by a corp, or at the discression of the parent or child, which means to
the guvmit one thing they either have to spend more money or they don't
and that's all that they care about.
McKenna

******************************************************************************


Mark W. McKenna Quote:
920 E. Wooster Apt. #4 "Oops I'll call you in a sec..."
Bowling Green, Ohio -the 7 second phone call
43402 <Mr. White>
(419)353-2405 Hobbies:Avid Shdowrun and Rifts RPG player

******************************************************************************
Message no. 9
From: "James Meiers (Specter)" <james@***.UNM.EDU>
Subject: Re: Education
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:58:54 -0700
On Thu, 13 Feb 1997, Tim Cooper wrote:

> But of course in order to GET INTO a university, one has to complete 4
> years of "high school" (or secondary school?), during which you'd need to
> take 4 years of literature classes, 2+ years of math, 3-4 years of science
> (biology, chemistry, physics, etc..), 2 years of some sort of art-type
> courses, and 2-3 years of history/government.
Well from personal experience, my high school education goes as
follows (A note: I am going to Catholic School)

3 years math, but 4 are recommended
3 years of history
2 years of science, 3 recommended
2 years of laguage, 3+ preferred
4 years of English/ Literature
4 years of Theology
madatory volunteering-type situations
Several electives

Sports are enocuraged as more thna half the school population plays
sports in a a year.


James Meiers (Specter) *****http://www.arc.unm.edu/~james*****
"It's all good fun until someone loses an eye. Then it's just fun."-Unknown
Message no. 10
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Education
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 13:16:18 +0000
|Well from personal experience, my high school education goes as
|follows (A note: I am going to Catholic School)
|
|3 years math, but 4 are recommended
|3 years of history
|2 years of science, 3 recommended
|2 years of laguage, 3+ preferred
|4 years of English/ Literature
|4 years of Theology
|madatory volunteering-type situations
|Several electives

Mine goes something like this (for comprehensive school)...

All these were set and could not be avoided.....

5 Years Maths
5 Years English
5 Years PE
3 Years Science
3 Years French
3 Years Music
3 Years Craft (woodwork, metalwork, plastics, pottery, art) [In rotation]
3 Years Home Economics [cooking and stuff]

After that you took options for the final 2 years....
I took.
2 Years Chemistry
2 Years Biology
2 Years Metalwork (One HAD to be a craft... Hated it....)
2 Years Motor Vehicle Studies...

After that, it's possible to stay on, do resits or go for A-Level exams....
(Resits = 1 Year in sixth-form. A-Levels = 2 Years)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 11
From: Andrew Norman <A.J.Norman@******.AC.NZ>
Subject: Re: Education
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 10:19:24 GMT00
In New Zealand:

Kindygarten (sp?) 3-5 year olds
Primary 5
Intermediate 11-12
College 13-17

University 17+ (for all you life time students)

Any way to get into university, you need to get a C (46% or better)
in at least 3 subjects at the seventh form level (thats end of
college). If you get that its called UE (university enterance). From
then on you can apply to go to university and unless the course is
restricted, you are accepted on having UE. This means that the
unrestricted courses tend to have a lot of people unable to handle
university in them.

To get a BSc in computer science (at Massey University, New
Zealand) you need to have 300 points worth of papers spread over at
least 3 years. (The other universities in NZ use different words but
the meaning is the same).

1st year
2 x CS papers
Maths Paper
5 additional papers (at least 3 from Bsc schedule)
2nd year
4 x CS papers
2 x Maths papers
40 points additional papers(at least 30 points from 2nd year Bsc
schedule)************************************************
Email: a.j.norman@******.ac.nz (Preferred)
or: andrew@*********.massey.ac.nz
"Everything I said could be a lie, but then again
I could be lying"
Unsolicited Commercial E-Mail will incur a
$US500 archiving fee
************************************************
Message no. 12
From: dhinkley@***.ORG
Subject: Re: Education
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 00:59:34 +0000
> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 12:15:17 +1100
> From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
> Subject: Education

> Alright, I had an idea last night.
[SNIP]
> How does the education systems (specifically secondary and tertiary)
> work in your country/locality? Eg. What sort of courses do you have to
> do to get a University degree?

> And what's your take on what this would be like in 60 years time?

In the United States the basic education system IMHO would be as it
is now. The two factors that see as permitting this failing system
to remain are the Teacher's Unions and the Bureaucrats with advanced
degrees in Education that work for the U.S. Department of Education,
State departments of education and the local school districts. Since
they are the recognized "experts", they provide "expert" testomony as
to why any given sugesetion for improvement is unfair, would not
work, or has "failed" some where else.

For example, the voters of Oregon just voted a property tax cut
(property taxes pay for about 3/4 of the loacal school system). The
district just anounced the their proposal, cut the length of the
school year, charge tution for units in excess of state minum, cut
busing and all non-academic programs. There is also talk of
increasing class size and laying off teachers. What is conspicous in
its absence is any reduction in the district staff ("educators" in
non-direct education position). The "experts" protect thier jobs
first, then the teachers, educating students is a distant third.
What is completey missing is the main resposiblity of an education
system, to provide a set of basic skills (reading writing,
arithmetic, and computers), basic knowledge (history, philosophy,
literature, and science) and most important the ability to think and
gain further knowledge on thier own. .......(a brief pause,
relization that one of his buttons had been pushed and then he
quietly climbs off his soap box )




David Hinkley
dhinkley@***.org

====================================================
Those who are too intelligent to engage in politics
are punished by being governed by those who are not
--Plato
Message no. 13
From: "Arno R. Lehmann" <arlehma@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Education
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 02:57:34 +0100
On Fri, 14 Feb 1997 12:15:17 +1100, Lady Jestyr asked for education
systems.
Here's my answer. (A little late, but my computer broke to pieces and I
had to reassemble it)

In Germany, what is were I live, it generally works this way:

Four years primary school
sometimes, depending on school and state Two years indermediate,
than four years secondary school
OR
six years sec.

Secondary is generally divided in three "parallel" types of school,
"Hauptschule", "Realschule", "Gymnasium". You can change
from the one
to the other, but going towarsd Gymnasium is not simple.
After Gymnasium, that is ten years at school, you can continue going to
the Gymnasium for three years. If you're not too bad you earn the right
to go to university.
There are other ways to go to uni, e.g. you can get an education for a
profession in three years, and after that you may go to uni, but only
to study a science that is about your profession (NOTE: this is very
symplified, in fact I couldn't correctly and detailed explain it in
german, much less in english:)
University is expected to finish after 9 to 11 semesters with a MA or
"Diplom", then you can earn a Dr., this takes between two and four
years, but it depends on what you're doing. After that you can do
another major scientific work to earn the title of a "Professor", which
qualifies you for high-level work in university education. This grade
is usually achieved between 40 and 50 years of life.


What all this might look like in the 2050ies I will think about later.

--
Arno
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Thwap!