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Message no. 1
From: westln@***.EDU
Subject: effects of multiple power Foci
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 22:48:57 -0500
I am looking for some feedback on the idea of a mage using multiple power
foci.

Lets say a mage owns and is bonded to two +1 power foci. When he activates
both of them does he get a net bonus of +2 or only a +1. I am inclined to
rule that only the higher bonus apply. I cannot find anything in the rules
that touch on this topic.

A related question:
A mage has a power focus, and a familiar with aid power(Gr pg 69). The aid
power means the ally acts as a power focus. Should one add the bonus for
each or just take the better of the two?

For game balance i prefere the take the higher of the two, but I'm having a
hard time convincing others in my gaming group. What's your opinion on
multiple power foci?
Message no. 2
From: Jeremiah Stevens <jeremiah@********.EDU>
Subject: Re: effects of multiple power Foci
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 05:38:22 -0500
> I am looking for some feedback on the idea of a mage using multiple power
> foci.
>
> Lets say a mage owns and is bonded to two +1 power foci. When he activates
> both of them does he get a net bonus of +2 or only a +1. I am inclined to
> rule that only the higher bonus apply. I cannot find anything in the rules
> that touch on this topic.
>
> A related question:
> A mage has a power focus, and a familiar with aid power(Gr pg 69). The aid
> power means the ally acts as a power focus. Should one add the bonus for
> each or just take the better of the two?
>
> For game balance i prefere the take the higher of the two, but I'm having a
> hard time convincing others in my gaming group. What's your opinion on
> multiple power foci?
>
Since the karma costs for 2 level 1 power foci and 1 level 2 focus, game
balance is not a problem. Actually, the mage with 2 level 1 foci would be
worse off, since both of those foci are easier to ground through and
easier to destroy than a single level 2.

Further, as allies require such a large amount of karma, a mage who has
both an ally and a bonded focus has sacrificed quite a bit else, like
spells, skills and initiations to save the necessary karma. Therefore,
unless mages get up into the hundreds of karma points, bonded focuses and
allies should not present a major game balance problem, and a 200+ karma
point mage is pretty damn powerful regardless of foci and allies.

Finally, if players become too dependent upon foci, just have enemy mages
ground through them, and if that does not work, hit them with a case of
fucus addiction.
Message no. 3
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: effects of multiple power Foci
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:45:37 +0100
westln@***.EDU said on 22:48/15 Dec 97...

> Lets say a mage owns and is bonded to two +1 power foci. When he activates
> both of them does he get a net bonus of +2 or only a +1. I am inclined to
> rule that only the higher bonus apply. I cannot find anything in the rules
> that touch on this topic.

As with most such situations, I think it's best to say only the higher one
applies.

> A related question:
> A mage has a power focus, and a familiar with aid power(Gr pg 69). The aid
> power means the ally acts as a power focus. Should one add the bonus for
> each or just take the better of the two?

Here, I'd say both work, because they're different things and from
different sources. The spirit isn't really a power focus, it just works
like one in game terms; for that reason, IMO it can be stacked with a true
power focus.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
My mind is numb but my mouth's okay.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Version 3.1:
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Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 4
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: effects of multiple power Foci
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:15:32 -0500
> From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
> Date: Tuesday, December 16, 1997 6:45 AM

> westln@***.EDU said on 22:48/15 Dec 97...

> > Lets say a mage owns and is bonded to two +1 power foci. When he
activates
> > both of them does he get a net bonus of +2 or only a +1. I am inclined
to
> > rule that only the higher bonus apply. I cannot find anything in the
rules
> > that touch on this topic.

> As with most such situations, I think it's best to say only the higher
one
> applies.

I disagree. With the high karma and nuyen costs, as well as the cumulative
effects of focus addiction, and the limitation as to how many foci a mage
can have active at one time, I see no reason not to allow multiple foci of
the same type to be used by a magician at one time. After all, they are
also easier to ground spells through (being 2 rating 1 foci instead of a
single rating 2 focus).

Besides, if FASA had wanted this limitation, they have had plenty of time
to make it known. I have never seen a reference to such a limitation
anywhere, and don't see the need for one. The drawbacks of multiple foci
are pretty severe and give the gm plenty of rope with which to hang the
offending pc if so desired.

> > A related question:
> > A mage has a power focus, and a familiar with aid power(Gr pg 69). The
aid
> > power means the ally acts as a power focus. Should one add the bonus
for
> > each or just take the better of the two?

> Here, I'd say both work, because they're different things and from
> different sources. The spirit isn't really a power focus, it just works
> like one in game terms; for that reason, IMO it can be stacked with a
true
> power focus.

Sure you can use both. :)

> --
> Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
> My mind is numb but my mouth's okay.
> -> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
> -> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
> -> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-
>
> -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
> Version 3.1:
> GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
> Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
> ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 5
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: effects of multiple power Foci
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 07:43:11 -0700
westln@***.EDU wrote:
/
/ I am looking for some feedback on the idea of a mage using multiple power
/ foci.
/
/ Lets say a mage owns and is bonded to two +1 power foci. When he activates
/ both of them does he get a net bonus of +2 or only a +1. I am inclined to
/ rule that only the higher bonus apply. I cannot find anything in the rules
/ that touch on this topic.

I would say no, because I don't want mage's in my game running around
with a total Power Foci bonus of 10+. Nothing more than GM judgement
on that one.

-David
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes.
Art is knowing which ones to keep."
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 6
From: James Paul Morgan <jpmorgan@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: effects of multiple power Foci
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:53:06 -0700
On Mon, 15 Dec 1997 westln@***.EDU wrote:

> Lets say a mage owns and is bonded to two +1 power foci. When he activates
> both of them does he get a net bonus of +2 or only a +1. I am inclined to
> rule that only the higher bonus apply. I cannot find anything in the rules
> that touch on this topic.
>

First off, how did he get two? How long is he going to hang onto them?
Aren't those force one's just GREAT for casting spells down? You know,
that mage down the street, he would just love to have that "extra" power
focus to use, even if he has to geek the PC to get it.

Sorry about that. Evil GM thoughts. It's finals.


I'd agree that the higher one only applies. If you let them stack these
foci, you'll end up with some very unbalanced things going on. You also
might want to consider a penalty for both being active, as they
"interfear" with each other."

If a mage has the karma, they can BOND multiple foci of the same type.
This allows for a backup foci if the first one gets toasted. (Kept in a
safe place perhaps.)

Also, don't forget the addiction rule from Grimoire II (I think) that
does things like start draining off your magic rating if you have more
active magic foci then you have magic rating.


> A mage has a power focus, and a familiar with aid power(Gr pg 69). The aid
> power means the ally acts as a power focus. Should one add the bonus for
> each or just take the better of the two?
>

I would say that the power is not a foci, it just acts similarly, and so
would allow both. Yes, this makes for some munchkin possiblities, but the
mage already paid karma for the familiar and now has to worry about people
casting down the power focus and/or killing the familiar. *evil grin*



See ya around the Mulberry bush.

--James

:)
Message no. 7
From: Jeremiah Stevens <jeremiah@********.EDU>
Subject: Re: effects of multiple power Foci
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 16:25:46 -0500
On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, James Paul Morgan wrote:

>
> I'd agree that the higher one only applies. If you let them stack these
> foci, you'll end up with some very unbalanced things going on. You also
> might want to consider a penalty for both being active, as they
> "interfear" with each other."

I fail to see how having two force 1 foci is any worse than having one
force 2 focus. Same karma cost, same bonuses. Yes, it might be easier to
bond a number of force 1 foci seperately, but the disadvantages of
having a number of easy targets for grounding far outweighs the benefits,
especially since a mage can only have a number of active foci equal to his
intelligence and runs the risk of focus addiction.

>
> I would say that the power is not a foci, it just acts similarly, and so
> would allow both. Yes, this makes for some munchkin possiblities, but the
> mage already paid karma for the familiar and now has to worry about people
> casting down the power focus and/or killing the familiar. *evil grin*

Allies and power foci only make for munchkins if 1) the GM gives out
enough karma to allow mages to conjure high level allies and bond poweful
foci. Really, only the Harlequin's Back module offers a karma award large
enough to allow mages to do this, and even then, only if they ignore
spells, skills, and initiation. 2) The GM sets up the campaign in such a
way that a mage does not need to spend karma on spells, skills and
re-bonding locks and re-quickening spells blown in the last adventure.

Consider, bonding a level 4 power focus and conjuring a level 4 ally, to
give a cumulative magic pool/magic rating bonus of +8: Ally- 30 points of
karma and 1 magic point, focus- 20 points of karma, total cost: 50 points
of karma and 1 magic point. For a starting character, that's a very
inefficeint way to spend that much karma. Yes, the bonuses are nice, but
if the player does not have the spells and skills to back up that sort of
power, he would be eaten alive by the more vicious NPC mages out there. It
would be far better to invest in spells, initiation and quickening, and a
few skills than in boosts to magic pool/magic rating.
Message no. 8
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: effects of multiple power Foci
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:52:38 PST
>> Lets say a mage owns and is bonded to two +1 power foci. When he
activates both of them does he get a net bonus of +2 or only a +1. I am
inclined to rule that only the higher bonus apply. I cannot find
anything in the rules that touch on this topic.
>>

If you can't find any aplicable rule, why make one up? an active power
focus adds to magic rating and magic pool. No reason each active focus
would not do its job as normal is given, so why not allow them to?

Multiple low power foci have few advantages. Usually, one big focus
easier to use - less time to activate, limit on active foci=
intellegence, saffer from grounding.

However, ThereMIGHT be a reason toget a few lo rating power foci-
availability, ease of enchanting, and focus adiction. Focus adiction
would be key to somemages- a mage with a magic rating of 3 might have 3
spellocks and 3 rating 1 power foci, so he could use any combination as
needed. Multiple spellocksis OK- those are foci. Why notmultiple power
foci.

The "munchkin" potential is not, IMO, a problem, A bigger problem is
some enchanter PC getting a really bitchen power / weapoin focus for
next to no karma. Bonding multiple low rating power foci is normally
just askarma costly as a singl bigger one.

>If a mage has the karma, they can BOND multiple foci of the same type.
This allows for a backup foci if the first one gets toasted. (Kept in a
safe place perhaps.)
>

Since no time requirement is given for bonding, he'd be MUCH smarter to
keep the spare unbonded and the karma unspent.

>Also, don't forget the addiction rule from Grimoire II (I think) that
>does things like start draining off your magic rating if you have >more
active magic foci then you have magic rating.

See abovef or "active foci" vs focus adiction limits.

>
>> A mage has a power focus, and a familiar with aid power(Gr pg 69).
The aid power means the ally acts as a power focus. Should one add the
bonus for each or just take the better of the two?
>>

Well, AFAIK, ALL sorces of magical power are comptableif not explicitely
stated otherwise. Magic rating limits magic pool use on spellcasting,
but theres no limit on magic rating, AFAIK. Where do you think REALLY
big mojo comes from?

Mongoose / Technological progress is like an ax in the hands
of a psychotic - Einstein

get sucked into -The Vortex- Chicago's shadowland BBS
http://www.concentric.net/~evamarie/srmain.htm


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Message no. 9
From: Brian Moore <mooreb@*****.FAC.COM>
Subject: Re: effects of multiple power Foci
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 19:02:27 -0500
FYI: I'm the mage that prompted the second question about Power Focus
and Familiar being used together. But I've never (yet) considered
using multiple Power focuses. We don't use Focus Addiction in the
game, but my character has rarely (if ever) exceeded the limit.

> westln@***.EDU said:
>
> I am looking for some feedback on the idea of a mage using multiple power
> foci.
>
> Lets say a mage owns and is bonded to two +1 power foci. When he activates
> both of them does he get a net bonus of +2 or only a +1. I am inclined to
> rule that only the higher bonus apply. I cannot find anything in the rules
> that touch on this topic.

I've looked through the rules myself, and can't find anything that
would prevent this. There are rules for max number of focuses active,
but no reference to multiples of the same type. It does take more time
to activate (and deactivate) multiple small focuses than it does to
activate a single large focus. Given that the karma and nuyen cost is
equal either way, I'd be inclined to allow multiples. But I would make
sure the total Force was reasonable. I probably wouldn't allow a Force
10 Power Focus, and I wouldn't allow 10 separate Force 1 Power Focuses.

> A related question:
> A mage has a power focus, and a familiar with aid power(Gr pg 69). The aid
> power means the ally acts as a power focus. Should one add the bonus for
> each or just take the better of the two?
>
> For game balance i prefere the take the higher of the two, but I'm having a
> hard time convincing others in my gaming group. What's your opinion on
> multiple power foci?

I'd allow the Familiar and the Power Focus together. Yes it may mean
a mage with a rather high Magic Rating and Magic Pool, but it was
probably paid for with lots of Karma.

If you're worried about game balance, you have a few options.

1) You can keep the game static (no karma, no money, no advancement),
but that gets real boring.
2) You can put arbitrary limits on advancement to keep the power
level fixed (your current preference), but that makes the game feel
artificial. And it can demoralize the players (or at least me) to
know that my characters can't advance AT ALL in certain areas because
they would exceed those arbitrary limits.
3) You can allow normal character advancement, but take it into
account when GMing. Let the PC mages have familiars and Power
Focuses, but give them to the bad guys as well. (Actually, almost
all of the bad guy mages in the modules have had Power Focuses, even
when we were just starting.) All the PCs have 100 to 150 reputation
and a lot of money, they SHOULD be able to get more than Wired
Reflexes I, or a Force 3 Power Focus.

P.S. If any of you use Focus Addiction, I'd recommend ignoring the
rules and rolling your own. Focus Addiction is caused by using more
Force Ratings worth of focuses than you have Magic Rating. Familiars
and Power Focuses can increase Magic Rating, but they probably
shouldn't help against Focus Addiction. (Maybe we need Familiar
Addiction too!) If you get addicted to focuses, you have to use them
when casting spells. That means a mage with a decent weapon focus
and a few spell locks has to activate them to cast spells! Focus
Addiction may be a good way to prevent Focus Abuse (unless you're a
Phys Ad, or Conjuring Adept, or ...), but it has some huge logical
flaws.

--
Brian Moore, mooreb@***.com | I wrote up a nice script to truncate all News&
First Albany Corp. Sysadmin | Mail sigs that are greater than 4 lines long.
standard disclaimers apply | It is still in beta testing due to an off-by-
Message no. 10
From: westln@***.EDU
Subject: Re: effects of multiple power Foci
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 01:01:52 -0500
Well it seems the opinions so far are split fairly evenly between it
doesn't matter, take the higher, or that focus addiction can limit it. It
also seems that no one has this particular situation in their games. Guess
I'm blessed with creative players

Thanks for the feed back.
Message no. 11
From: Brian Moore <mooreb@*****.FAC.COM>
Subject: Re: effects of multiple power Foci
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:04:49 -0500
David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG> said:
> westln@***.EDU wrote:
> /
> / I am looking for some feedback on the idea of a mage using multiple power
> / foci.
> /
> / Lets say a mage owns and is bonded to two +1 power foci. When he activates
> / both of them does he get a net bonus of +2 or only a +1. I am inclined to
> / rule that only the higher bonus apply. I cannot find anything in the rules
> / that touch on this topic.
>
> I would say no, because I don't want mage's in my game running around
> with a total Power Foci bonus of 10+. Nothing more than GM judgement
> on that one.

If you're looking to limit the total Power Focus bonus, that is
different than disallowing multiple Power Focuses. I can accept
that most GMs would not want mages with huge Magic Pools except
in high Reputation games. Disallowing multiple Power Focuses is
only one way to prevent that. You also have to take into account
Elementals, Spell Focuses, and Familiars. If you disallow
multiple Power Focuses, you'll soon have to disallow combinations
or multiples of all of the above things. Eventually your players
will discover that "He with the Biggest Power Focus WINS," and
your game will spiral out of control with players fighting for
bigger and bigger Power Focuses till they start using Blood Magic
to create Huge Power Focuses, then the Horrors show up and kill
everyone. :-(

OK, maybe not, but you lose something if you set up arbitrary
rules to limit power.

A better solution, IMHO, is to let your mages build up gradually
using multiple or combination Magic Pool enhancements. Start out
using elementals for temporary increases, or small Spell Focuses.
Add in a small Power Focus or Spell Category Focus. When the
little focuses get toasted, let the PCs upgrade to bigger ones.
Add in a familiar after a while. Keep an eye on the total Magic
Pool enhancements your mages regularly use, and try to keep them
at a level you're comfortable with. DEFINITELY let the total
increase as reputation increases.

I can think of one reason to disallow multiple focuses (of any
type) in certain campaigns... An Enchanter can use Enchanting to
reduce the bonding cost of very low Force focuses down to Karma=
1*Force (as per the Grimoire). In that case, a PC can get many
small focuses at a low Karma cost, where bonding a single high
Force focus would be much more expensive. If you as a GM think
that this is "cheating", you might want to figure out some way to
discourage it.

--
Brian Moore, mooreb@***.com | I wrote up a nice script to truncate all News&
First Albany Corp. Sysadmin | Mail sigs that are greater than 4 lines long.
standard disclaimers apply | It is still in beta testing due to an off-by-

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