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Message no. 1
From: Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject: Egyptian Magic
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 23:49:45 +0000
Okay for those who are still interested (kudos for your long
attention span :) here's what I could find about Egyptian magic. My
source is Lewis Spence, an historian specialized in mythology from
the turn of the century. So do take this with some reservations,
since there has been some advancement in Egyptology. Alas none of my
more recent sources had any information about magic. But since this
writer has been fairly complete and correct in his analysis of the
gods (according to current knowledge) and more comprehensive than
most of the modern sources I have, I give him the benefit of the
doubt. Plus I just like the style those old writers used, but I'm
hopelessly archaic :).

Spellcasting:
There exists various scrolls with actual formulas of Egyptian spells.
To cast them the user either invoked the god who was most closely
associated with the type of spell, or temporary assumed the identity
of the god. So for SR purposes they use the shamanic way of
spellcasting, in which they get the power to cast a spell from their
totem. The assumption of the gods identity can be seen as either a
different way of implementing the shamanic mask, or you could use
the Voudoun loa's (more about that later).

Different from the shamanic ways is the way the spells were cast.
Once a magician found that a certain formula was effective, he was
careful to repeat it when next he desired to say it, in an exactly
similar tone and similar circumstances. This was called "Ma-a
kheru" or "right speaking".

This right speaking was practised by nearly every one in Egypt since
in the next world a correct knowledge of magic words and formulae was
absolutely essential. Each doorway to the underworld had it's own
title and wouldn't open to a new-comer unless invoked correctly. Same
principle for nearly everything, from getting food in the underworld
to receiving object. The number of formulae was great, and the
nobility and priesthood (often the same) would learn more formulae in
order to command more power in the after life.

Everyone knew these formulae, but not everyone could use magic in
daily life as well. The persons that come closest to the full
magicians in SR are the Kheri-heb priests caste, often filled by the
family of the ruling class (although upward mobility was far more
common than it seems from this). Common people or the less scholarly
inclined used just small cantrips, charms and amulets.

Spells were also used in the preparation of the mummy, together with
perfumes, amulets and oils. These were supposed to keep the Ka
(spirit) in the afterlife. In this world the Ka could visit the body
again in re-inhabit it (thus creating the myth of the walking
mummies)

Spirits:
The Egyptian mage used lesser gods when he wanted to summon a spirit
to do his bidding. Very close to the spellcasting he would ask the
god to act in his behalf. In principle is this very close to the
shamanic ways of summoning spirits, with the exception that while
a shaman sees a heart spirit as a spirit, the Egyptian would see
it as a local small deity who protects houses. Also capturing spirits
in inanimate objects was not unknown to them, although these were
usually wandering souls. Once tricked into the object, the spirit
would help the magician in any way he could.

Alchemy:
Egyptians believed that certain alloys and fluxes contained magical
powers, and were very advanced in metal working. According to Greek
writers they employed quicksilver to separate gold and silver from
their native ore. The detritus from these processes formed a black
powder (khemeia - the preparation of the black ore, is probably the
basis for the Arabic word al khemeia), which was supposed to contain
the the individualities of the metals and be the source of light and
power.

Names:
This came up recently in the "who is MC23" discussion. The Egyptians
held the same believe as many ancient cultures that a name is part of
your soul, or Ba as the Egyptians called it. So knowing someone's
name would give you power over him. Therefore every Egyptian received
two names at birth: a "true" or "great" name, which was the secret
name, and a "good" or "little" name, which was used in public. The
true name was carefully concealed and only known to the giver and the
bearer. the giver was usually the local priest, which gave the
priesthood an additional power over the people.
BTW, there was a distinction between spirit and soul (Ka and Ba). Your
soul would look like a version of yourself with wings and would
depart upon death to the afterworld, the Ka would be a ghostly image
of yourself which would starve if offers would stop for it, therefore
the food and drink in the tombs. The Ka would depart the body too,
but could return to the body and would remain on earth as a spirit.

Voudoun vs Egyptian magic:
I was suprised to discover many similarities between these two forms
of magic use. Egyptians knew of the use of wax dolls, had a form of
magic use that comes close to, or is Loa based plus they're heavy
into potions, amulets, charms, etc. Pity I do not have Awakenings
any more (and not yet, since I did order it), so anyone who want so go
more into that direction is on his own.

Vampires:
Egyptians had no tales of shape shifters, strangely enough, but do
have something similar to a vampire: a spiteful or wicked ghost who
slew the sleeping child by sucking it's breath (now this got into
almost every mythology and is probably an explanation of crib-death).
The charm against these ghosts were (suprise, suprise) garlic
wreaths.

Dreams:
Dreams were also greatly relied upon in the affairs of life. There
were professional interpreters, and people seeking the guidance of
the gods would sleep in the temple famous for an oracle.



That completes it from my side, if anyone wants more information
about this, mail me.


Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie
Message no. 2
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Egyptian Magic
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 09:07:58 -0400
On Tue, 1 Sep 1998, Martin Steffens wrote:

->Spellcasting:
->There exists various scrolls with actual formulas of Egyptian spells.
->To cast them the user either invoked the god who was most closely
->associated with the type of spell, or temporary assumed the identity
->of the god. So for SR purposes they use the shamanic way of
->spellcasting, in which they get the power to cast a spell from their
->totem. The assumption of the gods identity can be seen as either a
->different way of implementing the shamanic mask, or you could use
->the Voudoun loa's (more about that later).

It's not shamanic as in Native Amrican, though, given that a
'shaman' can assume the mask of different 'totems' as would suit their
needs. Kind of like summoning Bear if you needed healing then Wolf if you
needed combat.

->Different from the shamanic ways is the way the spells were cast.
->Once a magician found that a certain formula was effective, he was
->careful to repeat it when next he desired to say it, in an exactly
->similar tone and similar circumstances. This was called "Ma-a
->kheru" or "right speaking".

The use of formulas is primarily hermetic. Sounds more like
Egyptian magic is more like the 'missing link' of Shamanism and
Hermeticism. It has aspects of both but is neither.

->This right speaking was practised by nearly every one in Egypt since
->in the next world a correct knowledge of magic words and formulae was
->absolutely essential. Each doorway to the underworld had it's own
->title and wouldn't open to a new-comer unless invoked correctly. Same
->principle for nearly everything, from getting food in the underworld
->to receiving object. The number of formulae was great, and the
->nobility and priesthood (often the same) would learn more formulae in
->order to command more power in the after life.

Great, and we thought beuracracy (sp) was not going to be in the
'afterlife'. ]:-)

->Everyone knew these formulae, but not everyone could use magic in
->daily life as well. The persons that come closest to the full
->magicians in SR are the Kheri-heb priests caste, often filled by the
->family of the ruling class (although upward mobility was far more
->common than it seems from this). Common people or the less scholarly
->inclined used just small cantrips, charms and amulets.

Just because this brought it to my attention, has anyone invented
a 'cantrip' spell for Shadowrun? When I was playing T$R's AD&D cantrip
was my favorite spell.

->Spells were also used in the preparation of the mummy, together with
->perfumes, amulets and oils. These were supposed to keep the Ka
->(spirit) in the afterlife. In this world the Ka could visit the body
->again in re-inhabit it (thus creating the myth of the walking
->mummies)
->
->Spirits:
->The Egyptian mage used lesser gods when he wanted to summon a spirit
->to do his bidding. Very close to the spellcasting he would ask the
->god to act in his behalf. In principle is this very close to the
->shamanic ways of summoning spirits, with the exception that while
->a shaman sees a heart spirit as a spirit, the Egyptian would see
->it as a local small deity who protects houses. Also capturing spirits
->in inanimate objects was not unknown to them, although these were
->usually wandering souls. Once tricked into the object, the spirit
->would help the magician in any way he could.

Summoning shamanic spirits but being able to bind them
permanently... yep, wanna be an Egyptian Magician. (Sorry, got munchie
for a sec.)

->Alchemy:
->Egyptians believed that certain alloys and fluxes contained magical
->powers, and were very advanced in metal working. According to Greek
->writers they employed quicksilver to separate gold and silver from
->their native ore. The detritus from these processes formed a black
->powder (khemeia - the preparation of the black ore, is probably the
->basis for the Arabic word al khemeia), which was supposed to contain
->the the individualities of the metals and be the source of light and
->power.

Wait. Could this be flash powder or, maybe, gun powder?

->Names:
->This came up recently in the "who is MC23" discussion. The Egyptians
->held the same believe as many ancient cultures that a name is part of
->your soul, or Ba as the Egyptians called it. So knowing someone's
->name would give you power over him. Therefore every Egyptian received
->two names at birth: a "true" or "great" name, which was the
secret
->name, and a "good" or "little" name, which was used in public.
The
->true name was carefully concealed and only known to the giver and the
->bearer. the giver was usually the local priest, which gave the
->priesthood an additional power over the people.
->BTW, there was a distinction between spirit and soul (Ka and Ba). Your
->soul would look like a version of yourself with wings and would
->depart upon death to the afterworld, the Ka would be a ghostly image
->of yourself which would starve if offers would stop for it, therefore
->the food and drink in the tombs. The Ka would depart the body too,
->but could return to the body and would remain on earth as a spirit.
->
->Voudoun vs Egyptian magic:
->I was suprised to discover many similarities between these two forms
->of magic use. Egyptians knew of the use of wax dolls, had a form of
->magic use that comes close to, or is Loa based plus they're heavy
->into potions, amulets, charms, etc. Pity I do not have Awakenings
->any more (and not yet, since I did order it), so anyone who want so go
->more into that direction is on his own.
->
->Vampires:
->Egyptians had no tales of shape shifters, strangely enough, but do
->have something similar to a vampire: a spiteful or wicked ghost who
->slew the sleeping child by sucking it's breath (now this got into
->almost every mythology and is probably an explanation of crib-death).
->The charm against these ghosts were (suprise, suprise) garlic
->wreaths.
->
->Dreams:
->Dreams were also greatly relied upon in the affairs of life. There
->were professional interpreters, and people seeking the guidance of
->the gods would sleep in the temple famous for an oracle.
->
->
->
->That completes it from my side, if anyone wants more information
->about this, mail me.

Well done. Should we try translating this into game terms for
general discussion?

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 3
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Egyptian Magic
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 14:15:32 -0400
At 09:07 AM 9/2/98 -0400, you wrote:

> Just because this brought it to my attention, has anyone invented
>a 'cantrip' spell for Shadowrun? When I was playing T$R's AD&D cantrip
>was my favorite spell.

Sort of. If someone want to light their cigar with a flame dancing upon
their hand, sure, why not. Has no real game affect. Instant chilling of a
drink, a brief gust of wind so that their hair dances or their long coat
billows as they are entering a room.

Little things that have no real game effect aside from a bit of RP and
drama, sure, why not? Just make it clear what they are and that they
aren't viable during combat or when their life is in jeopardy.

Not that it happens very often at all in my games, but hey, seems harmless
enough.

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 4
From: Lehlan Decker <DeckerL@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Egyptian Magic
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 14:35:39 -0400
<SNIP Cantrips>
>Sort of. If someone want to light their cigar with a flame dancing
>upon their hand, sure, why not. Has no real game affect.
>Instant chilling of a
>drink, a brief gust of wind so that their hair dances or their long
>coat billows as they are entering a room.
As a GM before, I've let players do something similiar. Usually
based on how well they roll on their sorcery skill.
(I think I also used (at least for a bit) the rules from one of
the plastic warrior books, concerning sponstanteously casting
spells).
As long as their color and fairly trivial, I just have the player
roll sorcery dice, as long as they acheive one or two successes
they have no problems. (T# based on how complex I think it is)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker, Unix Admin (704)331-1149
deckerl@******.com Fax 378-1939
Moore & Van Allen, PLLC Pager 1-888-608-9633
Message no. 5
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Egyptian Magic
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 22:23:02 +0100
And verily, did Erik Jameson hastily scribble thusly...
|Little things that have no real game effect aside from a bit of RP and
|drama, sure, why not? Just make it clear what they are and that they
|aren't viable during combat or when their life is in jeopardy.

Hmmmm....
I once used a cantrip in ADnD to escape capture.
2D-illusion over a doorway so that it depicted an empty doorway...

If someone's creative enough to pull it off, I can't see any reason why
cantrip type effects couldn be used for more than just theatrical and
atmospheric effects....

|Not that it happens very often at all in my games, but hey, seems harmless
|enough.

Yup.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 6
From: Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject: Re: Egyptian Magic
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 23:28:41 +0000
and thus did David Foster speak on 2 Sep 98 at 9:07:

> ->Spellcasting:
> ->There exists various scrolls with actual formulas of Egyptian spells.
> ->To cast them the user either invoked the god who was most closely
> ->associated with the type of spell, or temporary assumed the identity
> ->of the god. So for SR purposes they use the shamanic way of
> ->spellcasting, in which they get the power to cast a spell from their
> ->totem. The assumption of the gods identity can be seen as either a
> ->different way of implementing the shamanic mask, or you could use
> ->the Voudoun loa's (more about that later).
>
> It's not shamanic as in Native Amrican, though, given that a
> 'shaman' can assume the mask of different 'totems' as would suit their
> needs. Kind of like summoning Bear if you needed healing then Wolf if you
> needed combat.

I don't get your point here. Just to make sure we're using the same
point of reference here: For SR purposes there are two ways of
casting spells, albeit with the same end results they are completely
different in execution. Egyptian magic users would use the shamanic
SR way of spellcasting which is relying on an external force for your
powers. And since in SR you have to stick to one totem, what you
suggest is true in real, but doesn't have any bearing on the game.

> The use of formulas is primarily hermetic. Sounds more like
> Egyptian magic is more like the 'missing link' of Shamanism and
> Hermeticism. It has aspects of both but is neither.

I always saw Hermetic and Shamanic as two extremes, and there must be
dozens of in betweens, and those shades of grey will be hopefully
covered in MitS. Any magic system based on god worship will be
between shamanic and hermetic. It depends on the level of
ritualization where the balance lies (game technical speaking, I
doubt that an hermetic mage would agree from an ideological view
point :).

> Great, and we thought beuracracy (sp) was not going to be in the
> 'afterlife'. ]:-)

Heheh, same thing I thought. "Oh mighty Isis grant me the blessing of
thine wonderful palace, may it rise from the ground in... in ...
in... damn... forgot it... Ah heck, just give me a hut. Anyone
remembers the one to get a beer here?"

> Just because this brought it to my attention, has anyone invented
> a 'cantrip' spell for Shadowrun? When I was playing T$R's AD&D cantrip
> was my favorite spell.

What's that again?

> ->Once tricked into the object, the spirit would help the magician
> -> in any way he could.

> Summoning shamanic spirits but being able to bind them
> permanently... yep, wanna be an Egyptian Magician. (Sorry, got munchie
> for a sec.)

Buzz, wrongo. See it as a way of creating foci, the actual summoning
of spirits for doing your bidding for a short time is done by
coercing a lesser god for a short time, just like a spirit basically.
I know this is a tricky area, but I always viewed the spirits as the
source of many gods in any pantheon.

> ->their native ore. The detritus from these processes formed a black
> ->powder (khemeia - the preparation of the black ore, is probably the
> ->basis for the Arabic word al khemeia), which was supposed to contain
> ->the the individualities of the metals and be the source of light and
> ->power.
>
> Wait. Could this be flash powder or, maybe, gun powder?

Haven't got the faintest clue. I hoped one of the science gods could
answer that one.

> ->That completes it from my side, if anyone wants more information
> ->about this, mail me.
>
> Well done. Should we try translating this into game terms for
> general discussion?

Erhm, I thought I did just that... I hope... please?! :)

Well seriously I do think there is enough of a basic layout here to
use ancient Egyptian magic in SR. Lesse, totems, check; casting
spells, check; spirits, check; ways of magic, check; perception of
magic, check. That should do it in my opinion, but I tend to work
with just a frame work of rules most of the time. Please point out
any deficiencies you see and I dive in the books again.


Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie
Message no. 7
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: Egyptian Magic
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 21:45:12 -0300
> > It's not shamanic as in Native Amrican, though, given that a
> > 'shaman' can assume the mask of different 'totems' as would suit their
> > needs. Kind of like summoning Bear if you needed healing then Wolf if you
> > needed combat.
>
> I don't get your point here. Just to make sure we're using the same
> point of reference here: For SR purposes there are two ways of
> casting spells, albeit with the same end results they are completely
> different in execution. Egyptian magic users would use the shamanic
> SR way of spellcasting which is relying on an external force for your
> powers. And since in SR you have to stick to one totem, what you
> suggest is true in real, but doesn't have any bearing on the game.

If I recall seeing somewhere, Egyptian Magic was the origin for
Hermetism... Their using of all gods, instead of sticking to only one,
and the condition of having to repeat the exact same formula every time
would suggest a hermetic way of casting spells (the gods' names would
just be part of the formulae...). But they could maybe use a shamanic
way of summoning spirits.

Bira
Message no. 8
From: Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject: Re: Egyptian Magic
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 12:42:47 +0000
and thus did Ubiratan P. Alberton speak on 2 Sep 98 at 21:45:

> If I recall seeing somewhere, Egyptian Magic was the origin for
> Hermetism... Their using of all gods, instead of sticking to only one,
> and the condition of having to repeat the exact same formula every time
> would suggest a hermetic way of casting spells (the gods' names would
> just be part of the formulae...). But they could maybe use a shamanic
> way of summoning spirits.

Ah yes, the famous elusive Hermetica documents supposedly written by
Hermes, or Ptah. I've wasted three days searching for some solid
references in three of the biggest libraries in the Netherlands and
the result was a load of ghost links (as we called them, but I did
see some great manuscripts :). This document, if it ever existed to
begin with, is lost, and there's no proof that the text that is
presented by some people as the Hermetica nowadays is of Egyptian
origin (if it did exist it was probably written by a Greek anyway).

IMHO, it's nothing more than an elaborate way of lending credibility
by using supposedly old formulas and gods to a more modern society or
magical group. But I tend to be sceptic anyway.

I do have another problem with the Egyptian - Hermetic link. I think
hermetic formulas are exact because of scientific reasons, Newton's
laws are absolute, and in the same vein Grotham's first law of
casting fireballs should be too. I don't see any place for gods in
this (which doesn't mean that an hermetic mage can't be religious).

And I don't recall mentioning anywhere that Egyptian priests
worshipped all gods. They acknowledged the others, like in any other
polytheistic religion, but were priests of just one. The common
worshipper did go to multiple gods for help, but they were asking the
priests to commune with the god in their behalf.
The spirit summoning is shamanic in the SR sense. The spirits were
not seen as mindless forces who you can command at will, but either
as lesser gods or as spirits of the deceased.


Karina & Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie
Message no. 9
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: Egyptian Magic
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 14:18:46 -0300
Martin Steffens wrote:
>
> I do have another problem with the Egyptian - Hermetic link. I think
> hermetic formulas are exact because of scientific reasons, Newton's
> laws are absolute, and in the same vein Grotham's first law of
> casting fireballs should be too. I don't see any place for gods in
> this (which doesn't mean that an hermetic mage can't be religious).

Just as a mage calls the magical energies around him (and maybe the
elements, in his formulae), a Egyptian hermetic would call the Egyptian
gods...


> The spirit summoning is shamanic in the SR sense. The spirits were
> not seen as mindless forces who you can command at will, but either
> as lesser gods or as spirits of the deceased.
>

That's why I said their summoning was shamanic.

Bira
Message no. 10
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Egyptian Magic
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 15:55:25 -0400
On Wed, 2 Sep 1998, Spike wrote:

->Hmmmm....
->I once used a cantrip in ADnD to escape capture.
->2D-illusion over a doorway so that it depicted an empty doorway...
->
->If someone's creative enough to pull it off, I can't see any reason why
->cantrip type effects couldn be used for more than just theatrical and
->atmospheric effects....

I've used them for similar effects: wooden floor 2d illusions
covering big holes, groans coming from around the corner to make heroes or
malicious villians look around the corner (at a basilisk), curdling
someone's milk always tends to make them upset at the cook, etc. Simple
tricks like these are what cantrips are really useful for. I'll see if I
can throw together a neat spell for it.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 11
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Egyptian Magic
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 16:38:22 EDT
In a message dated 9/2/98 7:41:57 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR writes:

> > I don't get your point here. Just to make sure we're using the same
> > point of reference here: For SR purposes there are two ways of
> > casting spells, albeit with the same end results they are completely
> > different in execution. Egyptian magic users would use the shamanic
> > SR way of spellcasting which is relying on an external force for your
> > powers. And since in SR you have to stick to one totem, what you
> > suggest is true in real, but doesn't have any bearing on the game.
>
> If I recall seeing somewhere, Egyptian Magic was the origin for
> Hermetism... Their using of all gods, instead of sticking to only one,
> and the condition of having to repeat the exact same formula every time
> would suggest a hermetic way of casting spells (the gods' names would
> just be part of the formulae...). But they could maybe use a shamanic
> way of summoning spirits.

There could be another reasoning behind the invocation of a deity (minor or
greater) ... the use of a verbal prayer when casting the spell could be
inferred as a variation on making the spell a "Exclusive Spell" when it comes
to drain purposes. How does that sound? The invocation is a way of
explaining the "Exclusive Action" requirement.

-Herc
------ The Best Mechanic you can ever have.
Message no. 12
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Egyptian Magic
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 16:58:11 -0400
On Wed, 2 Sep 1998, Martin Steffens wrote:

->and thus did David Foster speak on 2 Sep 98 at 9:07:
->
->> ->Spellcasting:
<snippity snip>
->>
->> It's not shamanic as in Native Amrican, though, given that a
->> 'shaman' can assume the mask of different 'totems' as would suit their
->> needs. Kind of like summoning Bear if you needed healing then Wolf if you
->> needed combat.
->
->I don't get your point here. Just to make sure we're using the same
->point of reference here: For SR purposes there are two ways of
->casting spells, albeit with the same end results they are completely
->different in execution. Egyptian magic users would use the shamanic
->SR way of spellcasting which is relying on an external force for your
->powers. And since in SR you have to stick to one totem, what you
->suggest is true in real, but doesn't have any bearing on the game.

My apologies for being unclear, I was speaking of Game Mechanics.
I was saying that if a munchie (or most players for that matter) was
playing a shaman who could change totems, they'd change to the most
beneficial one. Now, in order to prevent this case of the munchies, we
could say that there are no magic pool bonuses (as you would get from
being a shaman) but it still operates in a shamanic fashion.

<snippity snip some more>
->> Great, and we thought beuracracy (sp) was not going to be in the
->> 'afterlife'. ]:-)
->
->Heheh, same thing I thought. "Oh mighty Isis grant me the blessing of
->thine wonderful palace, may it rise from the ground in... in ...
->in... damn... forgot it... Ah heck, just give me a hut. Anyone
->remembers the one to get a beer here?"
->
->> Just because this brought it to my attention, has anyone invented
->> a 'cantrip' spell for Shadowrun? When I was playing T$R's AD&D cantrip
->> was my favorite spell.
->
->What's that again?

Sorry, fallback to AD&D, I think this part threaded, though.

<snippity snip more and more>

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 13
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Egyptian Magic
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 22:10:54 +0100
And verily, did David Foster hastily scribble thusly...
| I've used them for similar effects: wooden floor 2d illusions
|covering big holes, groans coming from around the corner to make heroes or
|malicious villians look around the corner (at a basilisk), curdling
|someone's milk always tends to make them upset at the cook, etc. Simple
|tricks like these are what cantrips are really useful for. I'll see if I
|can throw together a neat spell for it.

There'd have to be more than one spell.
Categories tend not to overlap in shadowrun the way they do in ADnD.

There'd have to be at least one per category.
Illusion cantrip,
Combat cantrip. (May cause pain, but no damage????)
Manipulation cantrip might have to be split even further.

Well... You get the idea...
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 14
From: Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject: Re: Egyptian Magic
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 12:12:37 +0000
and thus did Mike Bobroff speak on 3 Sep 98 at 16:38:

> There could be another reasoning behind the invocation of a deity (minor or
> greater) ... the use of a verbal prayer when casting the spell could be
> inferred as a variation on making the spell a "Exclusive Spell" when it
comes
> to drain purposes. How does that sound? The invocation is a way of
> explaining the "Exclusive Action" requirement.

What about: "Oh mighty Amon, grant me the power to cast mine enemies
into flames, and while you're at it ask Thoth to protect me from
bullets." :)
I see it sooner take up more actions than be exclusive only. But then
again, anything that penalizes the Egyptian mages unnecessarily is
not such a good idea IMHO.


Karina & Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie
Message no. 15
From: Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject: Re: Egyptian Magic
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 12:12:37 +0000
and thus did David Foster speak on 3 Sep 98 at 16:58:

> My apologies for being unclear, I was speaking of Game Mechanics.
> I was saying that if a munchie (or most players for that matter) was
> playing a shaman who could change totems, they'd change to the most
> beneficial one. Now, in order to prevent this case of the munchies, we
> could say that there are no magic pool bonuses (as you would get from
> being a shaman) but it still operates in a shamanic fashion.

Oh that way, now I see. I tend to be rather dense these days (must be
old age), so I think apologies weren't necessary :).
I never meant the Egyptian priests to be able to change totems at
will. People worship whoever they want, but the priests are trained
in just one temple and therefore stick to one totem.

> ->> Just because this brought it to my attention, has anyone invented
> ->> a 'cantrip' spell for Shadowrun? When I was playing T$R's AD&D cantrip
> ->> was my favorite spell.
> ->
> ->What's that again?
>
> Sorry, fallback to AD&D, I think this part threaded, though.

I like the general idea of those cantrips, very good idea to bring it
up, it set off a very interesting discussion.

My ideas for little cantrip spells:
Clean room
Do dishes
Do laundry
Slay little critters like dust mites, etc.
Warm room
Cool room
Etc.

And finally:
Summon a spirit to do the shopping

:)

Karina & Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie
Message no. 16
From: Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject: Re: Egyptian Magic
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 12:12:37 +0000
and thus did Ubiratan P. Alberton speak on 3 Sep 98 at 14:18:

> > I do have another problem with the Egyptian - Hermetic link. I think
> > hermetic formulas are exact because of scientific reasons, Newton's
> > laws are absolute, and in the same vein Grotham's first law of
> > casting fireballs should be too. I don't see any place for gods in
> > this (which doesn't mean that an hermetic mage can't be religious).
>
> Just as a mage calls the magical energies around him (and maybe the
> elements, in his formulae), a Egyptian hermetic would call the Egyptian
> gods...

Oh yes, I do agree that the process might be very similar, but
calling the gods would be closer to asking a totem for power than the
hermetic ways. There is just one accepted way to ask the totem/god
for power.
Instead of "Hey dog, I need some moyo here." or "Fireball would be
handy right now." It would be along the lines of:

"Oh mighty Ra grant me the power to smythe thine enemies with thy
might flames."

"grant me the power, what, mage?"

"Oh sh%t. Grant me the power, /please/, Ra."

"okay and now from the start again, if you don't mind."

"arlgh...."

"Mage-boy? Hey? Still there?.... oups..."

:)

> > The spirit summoning is shamanic in the SR sense. The spirits were
> > not seen as mindless forces who you can command at will, but either
> > as lesser gods or as spirits of the deceased.

> That's why I said their summoning was shamanic.

And I agree (for a change :), just explaining.


Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie
Message no. 17
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Egyptian Magic
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 08:50:08 -0400
On Thu, 3 Sep 1998, Spike wrote:

->And verily, did David Foster hastily scribble thusly...
->| I've used them for similar effects: wooden floor 2d illusions
->|covering big holes, groans coming from around the corner to make heroes or
->|malicious villians look around the corner (at a basilisk), curdling
->|someone's milk always tends to make them upset at the cook, etc. Simple
->|tricks like these are what cantrips are really useful for. I'll see if I
->|can throw together a neat spell for it.
->
->There'd have to be more than one spell.
->Categories tend not to overlap in shadowrun the way they do in ADnD.
->
->There'd have to be at least one per category.
->Illusion cantrip,
->Combat cantrip. (May cause pain, but no damage????)
->Manipulation cantrip might have to be split even further.
->
->Well... You get the idea...

Actually, I was going to make all my old AD&D cantrips (I actually
made a DOC file of all the cantrips I ever thought up plus the T$R ones)
into individual spells but the drains would be like (F/2)-3[Nothing].
This is due to the absolutely minor magics involved.
What would a spell that has it's Drain Code (L,M,S,D) reduced to
below 'L' be, anyways? Besides very dangerous, of course.

"Hmmm.... I'll attack the Insect Spirit Queen with my Force 30
Insect Dart and casting it at a light damage level. Drain is.... (I
dunno) 15[Nothing]..... cool, I take no damage. I rolled up (using
SR2) 8 successes against her Force Rating 12. What happened to the
queen?"

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 18
From: rabiola <rabiola@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Egyptian Magic
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 12:42:23 -0500
> I've used them for similar effects: wooden floor 2d illusions
>covering big holes, groans coming from around the corner to make heroes
or
>malicious villians look around the corner (at a basilisk), curdling
>someone's milk always tends to make them upset at the cook, etc.
Simple
>tricks like these are what cantrips are really useful for. I'll see if
I
>can throw together a neat spell for it.


OK, for those that have forgotten and sold off their old AD&D stuff, got
a list of Cantrips that were used in the game? Or the book that has the
majority of them?

Tony Rabiola rabiola@**.netcom.com
Fourth and Sixth World Adept
Still working on the Fifth...
Proud owner of #972
Message no. 19
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Egyptian Magic
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 13:32:47 -0500
----------
> From: rabiola <rabiola@**.NETCOM.COM>

> > I've used them for similar effects: wooden floor 2d illusions
> >covering big holes, groans coming from around the corner to make heroes
> or
> >malicious villians look around the corner (at a basilisk), curdling
> >someone's milk always tends to make them upset at the cook, etc.
> Simple
> >tricks like these are what cantrips are really useful for. I'll see if
> I
> >can throw together a neat spell for it.
>
> OK, for those that have forgotten and sold off their old AD&D stuff, got
> a list of Cantrips that were used in the game? Or the book that has the
> majority of them?

Let me get my Unearthed Arcana...

There are a lot of them. 6 different categories of magic-user cantrips,
one of illusionist, and that doesn't include the orisons (priestly
cantrips) that were added just a couple years ago. 74 in Unearthed
arcana, and several pages of text of them (not on each, but on them).
IOTW, I ain't copying them all down. The general guidelines (out of
Second Edition). Completely unable to cause a loss of Hit points, cannot
affect the concentration of spellcasters, and can only create small,
obviously magical materials that are very fragile and cannot be used as
tools of any sort. Last, it cannot duplicate any spell effect.
Basically, they can be used to make life easier for the caster in small
ways, maybe fetch an item from across the room, but don't expect them to
do any affect than what a force 1 spell could pull off, and they won't do
it as well.

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bard to the Lady Mari
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
*
"One thing's for sure: It'll be years before Chelsea is willing to give a
guy a blow job."
Rick Leahy, Carpenter
Message no. 20
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Egyptian Magic
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 21:44:11 -0400
On Sat, 5 Sep 1998, rabiola wrote:

->OK, for those that have forgotten and sold off their old AD&D stuff, got
->a list of Cantrips that were used in the game? Or the book that has the
->majority of them?

I still manage to keep a near-perfect-condition Unearthed Arcana
(the book I believe you are referring to) as well as my copies of
web-brewed and home-brewed cantrips. I'm still working on the cantrip
lists... interesting side-project.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 21
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Egyptian Magic
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 22:32:30 +0100
And verily, did rabiola hastily scribble thusly...
|OK, for those that have forgotten and sold off their old AD&D stuff, got
|a list of Cantrips that were used in the game? Or the book that has the
|majority of them?

Depends. In 1st ED (Yes, you guessed it, I prefer 1st Ed ADnD as well), the
cantrip was introduces in the Dug-up shite...Errr... Unearthed Arcana...
(It was for negative level characters and was equivalent to 1/3rd of a
spell. 3 Cantrips filled 1 spell slot.)

I don't have the books, but such things as "freshen", "spoil",
"2D-Illusion", "Dust", "Ronson" (Yes, you did have to flick
up your thumb
and say "Ronson" for the lighter effect..), "polish",
"dirty", "puff of
wind"...

BAsically, inconsequencial magical effects that were MUCH less powerfull
than any 1st level spell....

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 22
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Egyptian Magic
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 18:25:49 -0500
----------
> From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
>
> And verily, did rabiola hastily scribble thusly...
> |OK, for those that have forgotten and sold off their old AD&D stuff,
got
> |a list of Cantrips that were used in the game? Or the book that has
the
> |majority of them?
>
> Depends. In 1st ED (Yes, you guessed it, I prefer 1st Ed ADnD as well),
the
> cantrip was introduces in the Dug-up shite...Errr... Unearthed Arcana...

LOL!!! Incidentally, I prefer second edition, modified quite a bit with
house rules and stuff from the first edition... I'm starting to see a
pattern...

> (It was for negative level characters and was equivalent to 1/3rd of a
> spell. 3 Cantrips filled 1 spell slot.)

4 cantrips, Spiky.

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bard to the Lady Mari
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
*
"You fail, Death-Lord! You destroy the instrument, but not its music.
With all your power you have gained only a broken shell."
In that moment, when the harp had been silenced, arose the songs of
birds, the chiming of brooks, the humming of wind through grass and
leaves; and all these voices took up the strands of melody, more beautiful
than before.
-Lloyd Alexander, "The Smith, The Weaver, and the Harper"
Message no. 23
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Egyptian Magic
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 13:37:43 +0100
And verily, did Nexx hastily scribble thusly...
|> (It was for negative level characters and was equivalent to 1/3rd of a
|> spell. 3 Cantrips filled 1 spell slot.)
|
|4 cantrips, Spiky.

4? Oh well.... Memory not what it used to be. It's a longer length of time
since I played 1St Ed ADnD than it is since I played Any-level Shadowrun.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 24
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Egyptian Magic
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 08:13:58 -0400
On Sun, 6 Sep 1998, Spike wrote:

->
->I don't have the books, but such things as "freshen", "spoil",
->"2D-Illusion", "Dust", "Ronson" (Yes, you did have to
flick up your thumb
->and say "Ronson" for the lighter effect..), "polish",
"dirty", "puff of
->wind"...

Waidaminit... <scrolling through UA> Where's the Ronson cantrip?

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 25
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Egyptian Magic
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 14:23:44 +0100
And verily, did David Foster hastily scribble thusly...
|
|On Sun, 6 Sep 1998, Spike wrote:
|
|->
|->I don't have the books, but such things as "freshen", "spoil",
|->"2D-Illusion", "Dust", "Ronson" (Yes, you did have to
flick up your thumb
|->and say "Ronson" for the lighter effect..), "polish",
"dirty", "puff of
|->wind"...
|
| Waidaminit... <scrolling through UA> Where's the Ronson cantrip?

I don't think it's called Ronson. Probably "lighter" or something.
(As I said, I don't have the book)
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |

Further Reading

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