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Message no. 1
From: Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject: Re: Egyptian mythology [was: Re: Wish you were there]
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 23:22:21 +0000
and thus did Jett speak on 17 Aug 98 at 16:16:

> Well, reading over this stuff, I can't help but think that the Egyptian
> gods are more like Voudoun Loa than totems...

Maybe the pharao could be a vessel for the Loa of Osiris, but the
whole Egyptian religion is typical based on totem worship. Very clear
from how most gods have heads of animals. You could rule that
Egyptian priests have an extreme case of totemic mask. They are also
heavy into using fetishes for magic and rituals, associating every
god with a certain fetish.

If enough people are interested I'll write up some more info next
week. My mom came over for a week, so I'm on low e-mail writing mode
right now :)

Karina & Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie
Message no. 2
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Egyptian mythology [was: Re: Wish you were there]
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 22:29:18 -0400
Once upon a time, Martin Steffens wrote;

>Maybe the pharao could be a vessel for the Loa of Osiris, but the
>whole Egyptian religion is typical based on totem worship. Very clear
>from how most gods have heads of animals. You could rule that
>Egyptian priests have an extreme case of totemic mask. They are also
>heavy into using fetishes for magic and rituals, associating every
>god with a certain fetish.

Cats were the only sacred animals I know of but there was nothing
like totem worship. There is more out there then just western hermeticism
and amerindian shamanism.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 3
From: XaOs <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Egyptian mythology [was: Re: Wish you were there]
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 05:04:54 -0500
> Cats were the only sacred animals I know of but there was nothing
> like totem worship. There is more out there then just western hermeticism
> and amerindian shamanism.

Cats, crocodiles, ibis, some kinda dog <grin>, hippo, uhm...can't think of
more at the moment, but there were a lot. But you're right, it's not totem
worship. (Maybe a bit of VERY specific totem worship?) I mean, they had
specific names, birth dates, clothing, favored colors, etc.

I almost think that something like Egyptian mythology is something entirely
too large for FASA to want to tackle. (Imagine all the people who would be
telling them they were wrong from a historical perspective!)

-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
Message no. 4
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Egyptian mythology [was: Re: Wish you were there]
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 12:52:38 +0100
And verily, did XaOs hastily scribble thusly...
|Cats, crocodiles, ibis, some kinda dog <grin>, hippo, uhm...can't think of
|more at the moment, but there were a lot. But you're right, it's not totem
|worship. (Maybe a bit of VERY specific totem worship?) I mean, they had
|specific names, birth dates, clothing, favored colors, etc.

They might have reverred the animals as sacred, but they worshipped Gods.

Ra, Apophis, Sett (Sutek), and all the other evil nasty alien Gouolds....
(OK, I've been watching too much Stargate SG1)

|I almost think that something like Egyptian mythology is something entirely
|too large for FASA to want to tackle. (Imagine all the people who would be
|telling them they were wrong from a historical perspective!)

All they'd have to do is define the gods in game terms.
A little bit of reading up on Egyptian mythology would clear up all the
niggly bits.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 5
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Egyptian mythology [was: Re: Wish you were there]
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 07:56:19 EDT
In a message dated 8/18/98 5:21:07 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
chimerae@***.IE writes:

> > Well, reading over this stuff, I can't help but think that the Egyptian
> > gods are more like Voudoun Loa than totems...
>
> Maybe the pharao could be a vessel for the Loa of Osiris, but the
> whole Egyptian religion is typical based on totem worship. Very clear
> from how most gods have heads of animals. You could rule that
> Egyptian priests have an extreme case of totemic mask. They are also
> heavy into using fetishes for magic and rituals, associating every
> god with a certain fetish.

I perceive them as being more Iconic than shamanic in nature.

As the Egyptians worshiped the gods of their pantheon through the statues
(icons) which represented them on Earth.

-Herc
------ The Best Mechanic you can ever have.
Message no. 6
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Egyptian mythology [was: Re: Wish you were there]
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 08:34:47 EDT
In a message dated 8/19/98 5:12:09 AM US Eastern Standard Time, xaos@*****.NET
writes:

> I almost think that something like Egyptian mythology is something entirely
> too large for FASA to want to tackle. (Imagine all the people who would be
> telling them they were wrong from a historical perspective!)

Does this mean that also applies to the Aztec religion and the Voudoun
religions too? But both of them are covered by FASA. The Aztec religion has
foundations in the Mayans and Incans. Voudoun has foundations in Christianity
and the shamanisms of Africa.

-Herc
----- The Best Mechanic you can ever have.
Message no. 7
From: Wiebke & Birger Timm <WiebkeT@********.DE>
Subject: Re: Egyptian mythology [was: Re: Wish you were there]
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 11:30:11 +0200
MC23 wrote:

> Cats were the only sacred animals I know of but there was nothing
> like totem worship. There is more out there then just western hermeticism
> and amerindian shamanism.

But just think of all those gods with animal shaped heads. Horus was a
falcon, Anubis was a dog. They had a god with a jackal's head and one with a
ram's head (don't know the names). And they even made sculptures and mummies
of animals.The symbolic animals for south and north were (are?) a cobra and
a vulture.
And there are more examples than that...
The sun was the origin of all life, water the origin of all things, symbol
of life and immortality, so they could have water or sun as a totem like
druids.
I think they are near to shamans allthough I agree that there is more than
just hermeticism and shamanism.
Maybe they had a kind of "universal" theorie of magic because there were no
single sciences but they knew only one big complex system of the "right
order" in nature and society (the "maat"). So magic could be fit in ...
everything else.

And now that's interesting: They thought of the soul as consisting of more
elements than other religions do. There are the body, the heart, the name,
and the shaddow. And there are the Ka and the Ba. All these parts make up a
person. The Ka is a second essence of the person and it exists beside him,
only in the mind and the Ba leaves the body and remains on earth when a
person dies.
I think that comes very near to astral projection. And this thing about the
Ka reminds me of dual creatures.
Hey, FASA could use this stuff very well to make a sourcebook!


> Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
> more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
> answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
> it could be used against them.

Yes, the name was one element of a being in the old egyptian culture...

Blix
Message no. 8
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Egyptian mythology [was: Re: Wish you were there]
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 09:11:01 -0500
<largish snip about Egyptian magic and the masks the priests wore>

>I perceive them as being more Iconic than shamanic in nature.
>
>As the Egyptians worshiped the gods of their pantheon through the
>statues (icons) which represented them on Earth.

Okay, Herc...can you explain to me the functional difference, within the
game system, between iconic magic (for instance, the idol magic in Germany
SB) and totemic magic (the basic Native American shamanic types)?

---
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 9
From: Sommers <sommers@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Egyptian mythology [was: Re: Wish you were there]
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 10:30:27 -0400
At 09:11 AM 8/19/98 -0500, you wrote:
><largish snip about Egyptian magic and the masks the priests wore>
>
>>I perceive them as being more Iconic than shamanic in nature.
>>
>>As the Egyptians worshiped the gods of their pantheon through the
>>statues (icons) which represented them on Earth.
>
>Okay, Herc...can you explain to me the functional difference, within the
>game system, between iconic magic (for instance, the idol magic in Germany
>SB) and totemic magic (the basic Native American shamanic types)?

As a very non-expert on these things I'll give it a shot.

Iconic magic is close to what you have in ADD with clerics. There is a
higher power that is involved with your religion that provides you with the
power to do the magic. There's a good chance that your worship involves
some kind of idol or icon, such as a crucifix or similar acoutrament. Its
possible to worship the god directly (Athena) or through some proxy
(Gabriel, an agent of God).

Totemic seems to be that you follow an advisor, some kind of power greater
than yourself. However, you do not worship it or believe that its a god.
Maybe think of it as a big brother that you'd like to imitate, and get
advice from. Of course, you don't have to listen to that advice, but then
maybe he won't help you out anymore when you ask.

That's what I try to explain to my players in my campaign.

Sommers, Confirmation #23263
"Hey, this is better than actually getting some work done."
Message no. 10
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Egyptian mythology [was: Re: Wish you were there]
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 10:26:59 -0500
>>Okay, Herc...can you explain to me the functional difference, within
>>the game system, between iconic magic (for instance, the idol magic
>>in Germany SB) and totemic magic (the basic Native American shamanic
>>types)?
>
>As a very non-expert on these things I'll give it a shot.

I'm also very non-expert, which is why I'm asking these silly
questions....

Thanks for the interpretations. Anyone else who wants to play is more
than welcome.

---
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 11
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Egyptian mythology [was: Re: Wish you were there]
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 09:26:03 -0700
>In a message dated 8/19/98 5:12:09 AM US Eastern Standard Time, xaos@*****.NET
>writes:
>Does this mean that also applies to the Aztec religion and the Voudoun
>religions too? But both of them are covered by FASA. The Aztec religion has
>foundations in the Mayans and Incans. Voudoun has foundations in Christianity

Aztec mythology has nothing to do with Incans. They were much farther
south, in the Andes. The Aztecs had the cultural inheritance of the Mayans
and the Olmecs, but the definitely made much of their own mythology.

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 12
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Egyptian mythology [was: Re: Wish you were there]
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 13:13:44 -0400
Once upon a time, Wiebke & Birger Timm wrote;

>MC23 wrote:
>
>> Cats were the only sacred animals I know of but there was nothing
>> like totem worship. There is more out there then just western hermeticism
>> and amerindian shamanism.
>
>But just think of all those gods with animal shaped heads. Horus was a
>falcon, Anubis was a dog. They had a god with a jackal's head and one with a
>ram's head (don't know the names). And they even made sculptures and mummies
>of animals.The symbolic animals for south and north were (are?) a cobra and
>a vulture.
>And there are more examples than that...

But It wasn't totem animals. They had their GodKing.

>Hey, FASA could use this stuff very well to make a sourcebook!

Earthdawn's Theran Empire had an egyptian like land in it.

>> Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
>> more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
>> answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
>> it could be used against them.
>
>Yes, the name was one element of a being in the old egyptian culture...

Egyptians were indeed one of my inspirations for my .sig.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 13
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Egyptian mythology [was: Re: Wish you were there]
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 12:43:35 -0700
>>Maybe the pharao could be a vessel for the Loa of Osiris, but the
>>whole Egyptian religion is typical based on totem worship. Very clear
>>from how most gods have heads of animals. You could rule that
>>Egyptian priests have an extreme case of totemic mask. They are also
>>heavy into using fetishes for magic and rituals, associating every
>>god with a certain fetish.
>
> Cats were the only sacred animals I know of but there was nothing
>like totem worship. There is more out there then just western hermeticism
>and amerindian shamanism.


Actually, much western hermeticism harkens back to pharonic sources, at
least allegedly; the order of the golden dawn, the masons, alyster crowley,
all practiced "egyptian" magic, whatever that means. IRL, I know a person who
is a practicing Egyptian priest, and his form is what I would consider
hermetic; its not a religion or a relationship to him, its a mystic tool.
Whether that applies to SR is moot; it applies to this discussion. If
somebody wanted to actually revive the Egyptian priesthood, that might be
another thing altogether, but I suspect they were pretty hermetic also; they
didn't let their gods call all the shots, yah know.

Certainly, there are more types of mysticism, but hermticism and
shamanism are though overarching mystic schools throughout history; religions
are not always related to either, or can relate to both. In the case of
Egyptian magic, there is a historic connection to hermetic practice.

Mongoose
Message no. 14
From: Jett <zmjett@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Egyptian mythology [was: Re: Wish you were there]
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 15:05:30 -0400
Wiebke & Birger Timm wrote:

> But just think of all those gods with animal shaped heads. Horus was a
> falcon, Anubis was a dog. They had a god with a jackal's head and one with a
> ram's head (don't know the names).

Anubis wasn't a dog, he was the jackal, IIRC (Willy, don't fail me now!
Willy being my high school history teacher...)


--Jett

<*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*>


"I'll make this clear, that I'm just here for backup. And to offer the
occasional advice or insult."
--Jett, on being an NPC

Behold the mighty sonic scream of the Jett!

http://www.scifi-fantasy.com/~zmjett/shadow.htm
Message no. 15
From: Marizhavashti Kali <xenya@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Egyptian mythology [was: Re: Wish you were there]
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 15:02:53 -0700
Adam Getchell wrote:
>
> >In a message dated 8/19/98 5:12:09 AM US Eastern Standard Time, xaos@*****.NET
> >writes:
> >Does this mean that also applies to the Aztec religion and the Voudoun
> >religions too? But both of them are covered by FASA. The Aztec religion has
> >foundations in the Mayans and Incans. Voudoun has foundations in Christianity
>
> Aztec mythology has nothing to do with Incans. They were much farther
> south, in the Andes. The Aztecs had the cultural inheritance of the Mayans
> and the Olmecs, but the definitely made much of their own mythology.

Also, Voudoun has foundations in a few African religions. It's also a
sibling to Santeria and Candomble.

> --Adam
>
> acgetchell@*******.edu
> "Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks |xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Lydia Morales (Brujah)|"But Brain, where are we going to find a four
Madelynne (Malkavian) | armed goddess of destruction at THIS hour?"
Sif Stormbringer (Get)|"Shut up, Pinky, or I'll kill you."
Message no. 16
From: Wiebke & Birger Timm <WiebkeT@********.DE>
Subject: Re: Egyptian mythology [was: Re: Wish you were there]
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 21:36:24 +0200
MC23 wrote:

> >But just think of all those gods with animal shaped heads. Horus was a
> >falcon, Anubis was a dog. They had a god with a jackal's head and one with a
> >ram's head (don't know the names). And they even made sculptures and mummies
> >of animals.The symbolic animals for south and north were (are?) a cobra and
> >a vulture.
> >And there are more examples than that...
>
> But It wasn't totem animals. They had their GodKing.

But then when are sacred animals totem animals? Does anybody have a definition
for a totem vs. a non-totem animal that is only worshiped? I don't see a
difference.For example Dog, the totem, could look like a human with a dog's
head... depending on what the shaman believes, right?

Blix
Message no. 17
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Egyptian mythology [was: Re: Wish you were there]
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 08:44:34 EDT
In a message dated 8/19/98 9:16:26 AM US Eastern Standard Time, remo@***.NET
writes:

> <largish snip about Egyptian magic and the masks the priests wore>
>
> >I perceive them as being more Iconic than shamanic in nature.
> >
> >As the Egyptians worshiped the gods of their pantheon through the
> >statues (icons) which represented them on Earth.
>
> Okay, Herc...can you explain to me the functional difference, within the
> game system, between iconic magic (for instance, the idol magic in Germany
> SB) and totemic magic (the basic Native American shamanic types)?

Alright, in reality there is none, except that Egyptian religious practices
and Shamanic practices do not share the same practices, sure there may be
cross-overs (as there always are) but the view of the two pantheons is
different.

Iconic was almost, IMHO, FASAs first attempt at introducing gods into the
game, until Aztlan and Awakenings came along.

Totemics has the basis in that the magic is based upon an ideal animal which
is the embodiment of the magic that best matches or compliments the shaman's
personality.

-Herc
------- The Best Mechanic you can ever have.
Message no. 18
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: Egyptian mythology [was: Re: Wish you were there]
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 23:14:46 -0300
Adam Getchell wrote:
>
> >In a message dated 8/19/98 5:12:09 AM US Eastern Standard Time, xaos@*****.NET
> >writes:
> >Does this mean that also applies to the Aztec religion and the Voudoun
> >religions too? But both of them are covered by FASA. The Aztec religion has
> >foundations in the Mayans and Incans. Voudoun has foundations in Christianity
>
> Aztec mythology has nothing to do with Incans. They were much farther
> south, in the Andes. The Aztecs had the cultural inheritance of the Mayans
> and the Olmecs, but the definitely made much of their own mythology.
>
> --Adam

Yup. One of the main differences is that Incans had no sacrifice in
their
religion. Or at least it wasn't so important. Aztecs killed someone
everyday,
in each city they had.

Bira
Message no. 19
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: Egyptian mythology [was: Re: Wish you were there]
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 22:30:44 -0300
MC23 wrote:
>
> Cats were the only sacred animals I know of but there was nothing
> like totem worship. There is more out there then just western hermeticism
> and amerindian shamanism.
>

The Scarab was also an important animal to them, IIRC.

Bira
Message no. 20
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: Egyptian mythology [was: Re: Wish you were there]
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 22:44:44 -0300
Wiebke & Birger Timm wrote:
>
> MC23 wrote:
>
> > Cats were the only sacred animals I know of but there was nothing
> > like totem worship. There is more out there then just western hermeticism
> > and amerindian shamanism.
>
> But just think of all those gods with animal shaped heads. Horus was a
> falcon, Anubis was a dog. They had a god with a jackal's head and one with a
> ram's head (don't know the names).

A little mistake here. Anubis is the god with the Jackal's head. I
don't
think there's a dog-headed one, but I may be wrong.

Bira
Message no. 21
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Egyptian mythology [was: Re: Wish you were there]
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 13:00:34 EDT
> In a message dated 8/19/98 9:16:26 AM US Eastern Standard Time, remo@***.NET
> writes:
>
> > Okay, Herc...can you explain to me the functional difference, within the
> > game system, between iconic magic (for instance, the idol magic in
> Germany
> > SB) and totemic magic (the basic Native American shamanic types)?

I made certain to snip this particularly...

Quenetic Placement (Egyptian Iconics if you will) deals with many varieties of
aspects. Within the "game mechanics", it might work best as a Shamanic
Orientation, and just retain variations of the already given totems (which is
what we did here for simplistics). However, given Awakenings and the Loa, the
Egyptian "Gods" could readily have more investment into this than mere
"totem-
like beings" that give particular orientations to power.

And, as Mike said, there are obviously no real rules/guidelines for magical
practices beyond SR's given system. Remember, game mechanics deal in
simplistics for the ease of use by the player, new or old.

-K
Message no. 22
From: Wiebke & Birger Timm <WiebkeT@********.DE>
Subject: Re: Egyptian mythology [was: Re: Wish you were there]
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 12:16:34 +0200
Jett wrote:

> Anubis wasn't a dog, he was the jackal, IIRC (Willy, don't fail me now!
> Willy being my high school history teacher...)
>
> --Jett

Oh, you're right...I looked it up and it was really a jackal but the old greek
mistook it as a dog...so did I ;-)

Blix
Message no. 23
From: Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject: Re: Egyptian mythology [was: Re: Wish you were there]
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 22:03:56 +0000
and thus did Mike Bobroff speak on 19 Aug 98 at 7:56:

> > Maybe the pharao could be a vessel for the Loa of Osiris, but the
> > whole Egyptian religion is typical based on totem worship. Very clear
> > from how most gods have heads of animals. You could rule that
> > Egyptian priests have an extreme case of totemic mask. They are also
> > heavy into using fetishes for magic and rituals, associating every
> > god with a certain fetish.
>
> I perceive them as being more Iconic than shamanic in nature.
>
> As the Egyptians worshipped the gods of their pantheon through the statues
> (icons) which represented them on Earth.

Herc, I didn't say shamanic, I said totemic. And the Egyptian
religious system certainly started out as an animal type worship
close to amer-indian shaman type. It later evolved into a more
formalized religion in which the animals got more and more human
traits and it became more Iconic as explained in the Germany
sourcebook (basically the totem is not a guide, more a god and the
whole experience is more ritualized and formalized).
Later still a few became the state religions (AmonRe, Osiris) and
overshadowed the worship, but never replaced, the worship of the
other gods.

Plus the Egyptians had a very flexible attitude when it came to
accepting other gods from other cultures they came into contact with.
When the Egyptians went to war and met a particular brave, ferocious
or difficult enemy, they would adapt that god into their own
pantheon. The whole religion had over 2000 years to evolve, and it
went through various phases just like any other religion would (just
look how christianity evolved).

Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie
Message no. 24
From: Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject: Re: Egyptian mythology [was: Re: Wish you were there]
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 22:03:56 +0000
and thus did XaOs speak on 19 Aug 98 at 5:04:

> I almost think that something like Egyptian mythology is something entirely
> too large for FASA to want to tackle. (Imagine all the people who would be
> telling them they were wrong from a historical perspective!)

Well if that would happen, you can say goodbye to any location,
magic, group, whatever sourcebook since there are always loads of
people complaining at FASA about not doing it right. Luckily it
didn't stop them so far (I dislike the Tir na n'Og sourcebook, but
I'm still glad there is one), and I'll doubt it will bother them much
in the future.

Karina & Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie
Message no. 25
From: Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject: Re: Egyptian mythology [was: Re: Wish you were there]
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 22:03:56 +0000
and thus did XaOs speak on 19 Aug 98 at 5:04:

[MC23]
> > Cats were the only sacred animals I know of but there was nothing
> > like totem worship. There is more out there then just western hermeticism
> > and amerindian shamanism.
>
> Cats, crocodiles, ibis, some kinda dog <grin>, hippo, uhm...can't think of
> more at the moment, but there were a lot. But you're right, it's not totem
> worship. (Maybe a bit of VERY specific totem worship?) I mean, they had
> specific names, birth dates, clothing, favored colors, etc.

The worship of animals probably started before the Egyptians became
known as a people. It started out as fear with an admixture of
admiration of the creature's excelling power and strength. Later
there developed the idea of animals as typifying gods, the actual
embodiments of divine and superhuman attributes. this form of
veneration was practised mostly the commoners in the later
dynasties with the exception of Bast for cats, and a special bull
(called Apis and needed to have very specific attributes). To my
knowledge the bull's birthday (celebrated by a seven day festival)
was the only animal's birthday that was celebrated. It was used as an
oracle and embalmed after dead. After dead it was supposed to become
even more powerful and join Osiris's soul, creating the dual-god
Osiris-Apis (known better under it's Grecian name Serapis).

Cats seemed to have a very strong position; Herodotus mentioned that
"All cats that die are carried to certain sacred houses, where, being
first embalmed, they are buried in the city of Bubastis". A Roman was
once killed by an angry mob for killing a cat. Cats were seen as the
incarnation of Bast and therefore sacred to her, and a
personification of the sun.

Ibis, naturally associated with Thoth, was held in great reverence
and considered very holy. According to myth it protected Egypt every
year from an invasion by winged snakes.

Bennu (a heron type), which gave start to the phoenix myth, was
associated with the sun, as a symbol of the setting and rising sun.
The falcon also was a sun-bird, scared to Horus, Ra and Osiris.

The others are:
Crocodile; associated with the god Sebek. Strange thing is that some
Egyptians worshipped these animals and bedecked them with jewels and
bracelets, while on the other hand many of the nobility hunted them,
and the people killed them whenever they could.

Lion (lion-god Aker and a whole group of other lion-gods); these
animals were usually closely linked to the worship of the sun-god
Horus or Ra. It was not allowed to kill and Egyptian lion, but
killing them in another country seemed to be no problem. Lions were
seen as guardians and often used in statue-shape to guard temples and
tombs.

Dog, not associated with any god, unless in a proto-form of Anubis
the Jackal headed god.

Hippopotamus, feared and therefore worshipped to avert it's anger.
The hippopotamus-headed goddess Tar-Urt became associated
throughout time with almost every goddess and had a dual nature that
was both benevolent and fearsome.

Ape, these animals were kept in many temples, mostly lunar ones, and
was very revered by the Egyptians, since a dog-headed ape reported
the results of the scales that weighted a human's soul after dead to
Thoth.

Vultures were linked to the goddesses Nekhebet and Mut.

Pig and ass had a pretty bad reputation. Hare, shrewmouse, bat,
tortoise, serpent (it also had a bad side in Apep who led his
serpents to the gods and men in the underworld), scorpion (same dual
good-evil nature) and frog (fairly ancient cult linked to Hathor by
the frog headed fertility goddess Heqt). Sacred to Isis were
swallows and geese.

Etc. etc. In other words most animals had a function and if
historical records are complete it wouldn't suprise me if it possible
to link a god to every animal in Egypt.

Karina & Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie
Message no. 26
From: Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject: Re: Egyptian mythology [was: Re: Wish you were there]
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 22:03:56 +0000
and thus did Jett speak on 19 Aug 98 at 15:05:

> > But just think of all those gods with animal shaped heads. Horus was a
> > falcon, Anubis was a dog. They had a god with a jackal's head and one with a
> > ram's head (don't know the names).
>
> Anubis wasn't a dog, he was the jackal, IIRC (Willy, don't fail me now!
> Willy being my high school history teacher...)

Your teacher was right :). The general idea was however that the
early Egyptians had dogs which resembled jackals. Since we're talking
about the time when people started domesticating animals it makes
sense that they would look more like the jackals.


Karina & Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie
Message no. 27
From: Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject: Re: Egyptian mythology [was: Re: Wish you were there]
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 22:03:56 +0000
and thus did Spike speak on 19 Aug 98 at 12:52:

> All they'd have to do is define the gods in game terms.
> A little bit of reading up on Egyptian mythology would clear up all the
> niggly bits.

Considering that the Egyptians couldn't even do that themselves
(keeping track of their pantheon and the chances was a major hassle
for the clergy), that should be fun :). I guess they have to take a
moment in time (rule of Ramses II would be a good point) and use that
as a starting point and then just simplify it by getting rid of the
smaller gods.

Karina & Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie
Message no. 28
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Egyptian mythology [was: Re: Wish you were there]
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 02:00:35 EDT
In a message dated 8/20/1998 4:05:39 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
chimerae@***.IE writes:

<snip longer, detailed, workings>

> Etc. etc. In other words most animals had a function and if
> historical records are complete it wouldn't suprise me if it possible
> to link a god to every animal in Egypt.
>
> Karina & Martin Steffens

Karina & Martin, I must applaud you on this rundown of the various
"Divinities" that were present throughout the kingdoms of Egypt in it's many
stages. Something I thought was interesting was your mentioning of Aker and
yet you didn't mention the connection to Bast(is), as was done in the female
lion (not the masculine).

But Overall, I am very impressed, that one was a keeper :)

-K
Message no. 29
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Egyptian mythology [was: Re: Wish you were there]
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 02:03:30 EDT
In a message dated 8/20/1998 4:07:45 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
chimerae@***.IE writes:

>
> Considering that the Egyptians couldn't even do that themselves
> (keeping track of their pantheon and the chances was a major hassle
> for the clergy), that should be fun :). I guess they have to take a
> moment in time (rule of Ramses II would be a good point) and use that
> as a starting point and then just simplify it by getting rid of the
> smaller gods.

Okay, now I'm going to flub up something, but what about "Akenatten" (sp???),
who did just exactly what you are describing. His era did more "damage" to
the religious and social infrastructure of the kingdoms than any of the
others, at least IMO.

-K (and yes, I am remembering this because of that goofy special on PBS
covering the guy a while ago)
Message no. 30
From: Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject: Re: Egyptian mythology [was: Re: Wish you were there]
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 11:11:16 +0000
and thus did K is the Symbol speak on 21 Aug 98 at 2:00:

> Karina & Martin, I must applaud you on this rundown of the various
> "Divinities" that were present throughout the kingdoms of Egypt in it's
many
> stages. Something I thought was interesting was your mentioning of Aker and
> yet you didn't mention the connection to Bast(is), as was done in the female
> lion (not the masculine).

Thanks for the compliment. The omission was purely due to time
restraints. I was writing the post, saw the length it was and decided
to simplify some parts. Heck, unlike some people (points upwards at
K's time of writing :), I do have to sleep :). So the answer is, for
the sake of sleep, and good family relations (I am writing these
things while my mother is visiting me so I can't take too long).

Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie
Message no. 31
From: Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject: Re: Egyptian mythology [was: Re: Wish you were there]
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 11:11:16 +0000
and thus did K is the Symbol speak on 21 Aug 98 at 2:03:

> Okay, now I'm going to flub up something, but what about "Akenatten"
(sp???),
> who did just exactly what you are describing. His era did more "damage" to
> the religious and social infrastructure of the kingdoms than any of the
> others, at least IMO.

Akh-en-Aten, or as he started out Amonhotep IV, was the equivalent of
Luther, except that he didn't succeeded and got his name cursed and
wiped of most records and statues in the process. The god he tried
to create was Aten (which already existed in a very obscure form),
basically a sun god, but without the mythological stories and rituals
that linked Ra or Horus into the Egyptian culture. Generally it is
seen that Akhenaten was a bit too enlightened for his time, trying to
create a monotheistic religion, becoming more of a "people's"
Pharaoh, and generally creating a sort of renaissance in Egyptian
culture and social life.

He might have succeeded, was it not for his religious reforms. Many
of the priest of the Amon / Amen-Ra religion, which was the state
religion before, were recruited from the country's nobility and
created a powerful block against him, plus the majority of the
population did not abandon their old gods. He was eventually forced
to move his capital to the new city of Akhet-Aten. In all he ruled
for an unknown time (maybe 12 years or so), but there are no signs of
him being deposed or killed. However, shortly after his rule the
worship of Aten declined and all monuments and temples in honour of
Aten were effaced and only a few remain to bear witness to this
interesting pharaoh and time.


Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie
Message no. 32
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: Egyptian mythology [was: Re: Wish you were there]
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 12:56:41 -0300
K is the Symbol wrote:
> Karina & Martin, I must applaud you on this rundown of the various
> "Divinities" that were present throughout the kingdoms of Egypt in it's
many
> stages. Something I thought was interesting was your mentioning of Aker and
> yet you didn't mention the connection to Bast(is), as was done in the female
> lion (not the masculine).
>
> But Overall, I am very impressed, that one was a keeper :)
>
> -K


Bast was the cat. The female lion was Sekhmet, IIRC.

Bira
Message no. 33
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Egyptian mythology [was: Re: Wish you were there]
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 01:28:17 EDT
In a message dated 8/22/1998 4:38:39 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR writes:

>
> Bast was the cat. The female lion was Sekhmet, IIRC.
>
Yes Bira, you are correct, but Sekhmet was more than that as well. Bast had
variant forms, one of which was Sekhmet as well.

-K
Message no. 34
From: XaOs <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Egyptian mythology [was: Re: Wish you were there]
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 01:40:25 -0500
> Yes Bira, you are correct, but Sekhmet was more than that as
> well. Bast had
> variant forms, one of which was Sekhmet as well.

For example (if I'm not mistaken), Sekhmet was more closely associated with
the sun (Ra), and Bast was more closely associated with the moon.

Sekhmet was associated with strength. I don't recall the reciprocal
association with Bast.

-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
Message no. 35
From: Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject: Re: Egyptian mythology [was: Re: Wish you were there]
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 12:39:34 +0000
and thus did Ubiratan P. Alberton speak on 22 Aug 98 at 12:56:

> Bast was the cat. The female lion was Sekhmet, IIRC.

No-one said that Bast wasn't a cat-goddess. Aker was a male
lion god who was guardian of the gate of the dawn. Two other Lion
guardians were Sef and Dua, Yesterday and Tomorrow. Apart from those
there were lots of other lion gods functioning in a guardian role.
Sekhmet was a lion goddess who personificated the destructiveness of
the sun's heat or the destroying fire. She was later identified with
forms of Hathor. Bast was more a personification of the mild warmth
of the sun, fertilizing the ground, and possibly started out as a
lion goddess too.

One rather important god in Memphis who I forgot in my first list of
gods is Ptah.
Ptah looks like a bearded man with a bald head (or a close fitting
skull-cap) and dressed in clothes who fit closely like a shroud. from
the back of his neck hangs a Menat, the symbol of happiness, and
along with the usual symbols of royalty and godhead he holds the
symbol of stability. Ptah is a creator, god of all handicrafts,
architecture, metalworking and creative arts. Together with Khnemu he
carried out the command of Thoth concerning the creation of the
universe. Khnemu made the animals, while Ptah made the great metal
plate which was supposed to form the floor of heaven and the roof of
the sky and framed the supports that hold it up.

Next week in Ancient-Egypt 101, Egyptian magic (or a historian's view
on Egyptian's perception of magic).

Gods, I should write a book... :)



Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie
Message no. 36
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Egyptian mythology [was: Re: Wish you were there]
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 08:58:10 EDT
In a message dated 8/23/1998 6:39:06 AM US Eastern Standard Time, chime=
rae@***.IE writes:

>
> > Bast was the cat. The female lion was Sekhmet, IIRC.
>
> No-one said that Bast wasn't a cat-goddess. Aker was a male
> lion god who was guardian of the gate of the dawn. Two other Lion
> guardians were Sef and Dua, Yesterday and Tomorrow. Apart from those
> there were lots of other lion gods functioning in a guardian role.
> Sekhmet was a lion goddess who personificated the destructiveness of
> the sun's heat or the destroying fire. She was later identified with
> forms of Hathor. Bast was more a personification of the mild warmth
> of the sun, fertilizing the ground, and possibly started out as a
> lion goddess too.

I had read that Sekhmet (found the other reference I was trying to recall=
) is the "Manifestation of Bast when in Combat and War". And believe i=
t or not, those were the text's choice of words, not mine, as seen at t=
he "International Museum" in St. Petersburg FL, back in '96 during the =
mid summer "Treasures of the Nile" tour (which had a HUGE scroll from t=
he books of the dead, which I had a blast reading parts I could readily=
recall).

> One rather important god in Memphis who I forgot in my first list of
> gods is Ptah.

Ah yes, one of my favorites.

> Ptah looks like a bearded man with a bald head (or a close fitting
> skull-cap) and dressed in clothes who fit closely like a shroud. from
> the back of his neck hangs a Menat, the symbol of happiness, and
> along with the usual symbols of royalty and godhead he holds the
> symbol of stability. Ptah is a creator, god of all handicrafts,
> architecture, metalworking and creative arts. Together with Khnemu he
> carried out the command of Thoth concerning the creation of the
> universe. Khnemu made the animals, while Ptah made the great metal
> plate which was supposed to form the floor of heaven and the roof of
> the sky and framed the supports that hold it up.

In the games here, we've associated him with Ometeotl (Central America),=
Creator (German Icon) and Papa Legba (the Voudon Loa, "Old Man at the=
Crossroads") sort of thing. Khemmu, I'd forgotten that one. Works ou=
t even more interesting in the FASA created Aztlan Religions concerning=
the aspects of Ometeotl known as "Omechihuatl (Female) •Ometecutli =
(Male) " <as snipped from me own website, as the Aztlan sourcebook must=
be in Mike's room>.

> Next week in Ancient-Egypt 101, Egyptian magic (or a historian's view
> on Egyptian's perception of magic).

I'm ready, let's go. Don't forget the concept of Ritual Sacrifice as see=
n by the Middle Kingdomers as compared to the Lower Kingdoms.... ;p

> Gods, I should write a book... :)
>
If you do, and you keep it this interesting...I'll buy a copy :)

-K
Message no. 37
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: Egyptian mythology [was: Re: Wish you were there]
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 18:03:32 -0300
K is the Symbol wrote:
>
> In a message dated 8/22/1998 4:38:39 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
> ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR writes:
>
> >
> > Bast was the cat. The female lion was Sekhmet, IIRC.
> >
> Yes Bira, you are correct, but Sekhmet was more than that as well. Bast had
> variant forms, one of which was Sekhmet as well.
>
> -K


I read about that too, but I didn't know if it was true...

Bira
Message no. 38
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Egyptian mythology [was: Re: Wish you were there]
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 14:12:55 -0700
>One rather important god in Memphis who I forgot in my first list of
>gods is Ptah.

Apparently, and I only say apparently because A.E. Van Vogt wrote a book
called something like "Three million A.D.", Ptah was the most "human"
of
the gods and wanted to be like humans. Therefore, he set aside his godhood
and lived amongst us for a time. Of course, that gave people like Set a
chance to grab his power, but clever Ptah uses the wisdom he has gained as
a mortal to become more powerful than the gods.

Again, this is something that Van Vogt written, but I imagine that at least
some of it was swiped from mythology.

>Gods, I should write a book... :)

You should. ;-)

>Martin Steffens
>chimerae@***.ie

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 39
From: Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject: Re: Egyptian mythology [was: Re: Wish you were there]
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 23:24:09 +0000
and thus did K is the Symbol speak on 23 Aug 98 at 8:58:

> I had read that Sekhmet (found the other reference I was trying to recall) is
> the "Manifestation of Bast when in Combat and War". And believe it or
not,
> those were the text's choice of words, not mine, as seen at the "International
> Museum" in St. Petersburg FL, back in '96 during the mid summer "Treasures
of
> the Nile" tour (which had a HUGE scroll from the books of the dead, which I
> had a blast reading parts I could readily recall).

Well frankly after trying to make a chronological list of gods and
goddesses merging, diverging once as part of a project (which my
erstwhile prof called very ambitious when he heard of it, little did
I know his sense of euphemisms :), nothing surprises me any more. The
four of us gave up tracking down or trying to make sense of it after
the first week. There are gods for every little village, and they all
worship them either under a different name or a different god with
the same aspects (try to find that out now...). In our little search
we found, if I recall correctly, over 25 lion gods and half a dozen
or so other gods who put on a lion's head when they felt like it (or
just to piss us off :). It's hard to say now whether they were all
different gods or aspects of the same. Compare it to the holy ghost
in christianity, for a while there was a (considered heretic) branch
who considered all parts different gods instead of the now accepted
idea of them being aspects of one god. Who is right was determined by
political force, and since the Egyptian's accepted almost anything in
their pantheon, there was hardly any effort to "clean up" their
number of gods.

> In the games here, we've associated him with Ometeotl (Central America),
> Creator (German Icon) and Papa Legba (the Voudon Loa, "Old Man at the
> Crossroads") sort of thing. Khemmu, I'd forgotten that one. Works out even
> more interesting in the FASA created Aztlan Religions concerning the aspects
> of Ometeotl known as "Omechihuatl (Female) Ometecutli (Male) " <as
snipped
> from me own website, as the Aztlan sourcebook must be in Mike's room>.

If you don't mind I'll skip the part where the Egyptian gods are
linked to other religions, just rehashing this list gave me a
headache :). Just that the Greeks and Romans adopted quite a few into
their pantheon, after renaming them. And the Egyptians took over a
bunch from the Syrians, Baal being the most interesting example.

> > Next week in Ancient-Egypt 101, Egyptian magic (or a historian's view
> > on Egyptian's perception of magic).
> I'm ready, let's go. Don't forget the concept of Ritual Sacrifice as seen by
> the Middle Kingdomers as compared to the Lower Kingdoms.... ;p

Seems like you're far more qualified to write it :P :). I intend to
keep it fairly generalistic, since it's not based on books like
"Egyptian Magick", but what historical stuff I did find at the time,
but feel free to add items.

> > Gods, I should write a book... :)
> >
> If you do, and you keep it this interesting...I'll buy a copy :)

don't stay up for it :)

Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie

Further Reading

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