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Message no. 1
From: LISETTE M THERIOT <psy_lmt@***.LAMAR.EDU>
Subject: Re: Elementals
Date: Sat, 11 Feb 1995 23:39:17 -0600
Sheesh! I didn't think it'd cause this much of a response... but to defend a
couple of things:

(1) The elementals wouldn't be from a cross plane. Lets say that the
origanal casting creates an empty mold of mana. You then go to the two meta-
planes to get some of the spirits form from each. But think of the contrasting
world veiws if one of these puppies got free... or trying to find its true name
("The true name is ALKJ- Continued in the elemental plane of water" Doh!)
(2) wouldn't fire in air be electricity... If you can think of a better
one... tell me.

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Message no. 2
From: pran r mukherjee <pran@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Elementals
Date: Sun, 12 Feb 1995 02:57:06 -0400
On Sat, 11 Feb 1995, LISETTE M THERIOT wrote:

> Sheesh! I didn't think it'd cause this much of a response... but to defend a
> couple of things:
>
> (1) The elementals wouldn't be from a cross plane. Lets say that the
> origanal casting creates an empty mold of mana. You then go to the two meta-
> planes to get some of the spirits form from each. But think of the contrasting
> world veiws if one of these puppies got free... or trying to find its true name
> ("The true name is ALKJ- Continued in the elemental plane of water" Doh!)
> (2) wouldn't fire in air be electricity... If you can think of a better
> one... tell me.
>

Fire in air would be elemental conflict. You get an elemental by a
summoning, not a creation. You aren't making anything, you are binding a
complete creature to your will with magic. And there simply aren't
cross-elementals. Unless you want to add para- and quasi-planes to your
shadowrun game (sorry for the A$&$ reference), you can't have the
appropriate elementals.
Message no. 3
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Elementals
Date: Sun, 12 Feb 1995 12:47:00 +0100
> (1) The elementals wouldn't be from a cross plane. Lets say that the
>origanal casting creates an empty mold of mana. You then go to the two meta-
>planes to get some of the spirits form from each. But think of the contrasting
>world veiws if one of these puppies got free... or trying to find its true name
>("The true name is ALKJ- Continued in the elemental plane of water" Doh!)

It is _suspected_ that there are more metaplanes than those listed in the
Grimthingy II, but I think your character would have to discover them before
he can go there...


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
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Message no. 4
From: Pete Hanson <kidkaos@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Elementals
Date: Sat, 11 Feb 1995 22:08:24 -0600
>> (1) The elementals wouldn't be from a cross plane. Lets say that the
>>origanal casting creates an empty mold of mana. You then go to the two meta-
>>planes to get some of the spirits form from each. But think of the contrasting
>>world veiws if one of these puppies got free... or trying to find its true
name
>>("The true name is ALKJ- Continued in the elemental plane of water"
Doh!)
>
>It is _suspected_ that there are more metaplanes than those listed in the
>Grimthingy II, but I think your character would have to discover them before
>he can go there...
>
>
>Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html

Just an idea, but look at the term, elementals (implying orginal, first,
building block of other forces, etc...) The orginal e elements are air,
fire, water, and earth. This comes from the orginal discovered forces of
nature and magick. Sure other places can exist. They come with
understanding and changes
in how we perceive things. An example is, we understand how electricity works.
We can define what it is. 500 years ago the average person could not.
Sure since you understand electricity you could theoritically find a plane
where this exist.
In our campaigns we have what we call bubble theory. It basically says...
There are several main planes of existance. Clustered around them are many
planes of possibilities. There are infinite changes and possibilities and
collapses, (kind of like bubbles in a bath tub )
In addition, some of the main 'bubbles' also include planes of Voodin,
Egyptian, Kabbalistic, etc. existance. Therefore in magic quests you can
travel into many possibilities, (an example would be a Greek 'mythos' water
plane, complete with dolphins, Aphrodite, water sprites, etc.) (or a Voodin
fire plane with appropriate trappings) Of course they exist, they are all
valid.
It works for our campaigns and sometimes even alows cross overs from other
'worlds' like when a favorite DnD character ends up in the wrong time, or a
Gurps character finds herself in a place similar to but not exactly like home.
Of course this is another intire discussion. Also to even up things I only
allow certain 'magicks to work when a character travels to this plane.
(To other planes travelers, we are only another plane of existance, part of
the bubbles!!!)
Anyway that's my thoughts,
K. Hanson
a.k.a Kid Kaos
Message no. 5
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Elementals
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 11:24:54 +0100
>The orginal e elements are air, fire, water, and earth.

Don't forget wood... Oops :)


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
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Message no. 6
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Elementals
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 10:09:39 -0500
>>>>> "Gurth" == Gurth <gurth@******.NL> writes:

>> The orginal e elements are air, fire, water, and earth.
Gurth> Don't forget wood... Oops :)

If you're going to bring in the 5 oriental elements, they are wood, water,
fire, rock, metal, if I remember correctly.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | accelerate to dangerous speeds.
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |
Message no. 7
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Elementals
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 00:01:40 -0800
On Mon, 13 Feb 1995, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

> If you're going to bring in the 5 oriental elements, they are wood, water,
> fire, rock, metal, if I remember correctly.

Correct. Rock dominates Water, Wood dominates Rock, Metal
dominates Wood, Fire dominates Metal, and Water dominates Fire.
Sometimes, as in Hsing-I or Five Elements boxing, there are the
four "classical" (i.e. Greek) elements plus Emptiness. And sometimes,
such as in Pa-Kua or Eight Trigrams boxing, there are somewhat more than
five elements subsumed in the Eight Postures and Eight movements.
And, of course, classical Chinese is rather difficult to
translate, as they leave out things like articles, nouns and adverbs. So
I'm sure someone could find a Chinese classic that says something different.

> Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly

========================================================================
Adam Getchell "Invincibility is in oneself,
acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu vulnerability in the opponent."
http://instruction.ucdavis.edu/html/Adam/getchell.html
Message no. 8
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Elementals
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 11:29:21 +0100
>Gurth> Don't forget wood... Oops :)
>
>If you're going to bring in the 5 oriental elements, they are wood, water,
>fire, rock, metal, if I remember correctly.

No, not the oriental ones. I was thinking of ED, where the five elements are
Air, Earth, Fire, Water, and Wood. To use it in SR you'd have to think about
what the Wood elemental effect would do for your spells... Wood is more
difficult to understand than the other four, however :)


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
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Message no. 9
From: Nightfox <DJWA@******.UCC.NAU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Elementals
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 08:20:40 -0700
>No, not the oriental ones. I was thinking of ED, where the five elements are
>Air, Earth, Fire, Water, and Wood. To use it in SR you'd have to think about
>what the Wood elemental effect would do for your spells... Wood is more
>difficult to understand than the other four, however :)

Actually, you shouldn't think so much about what elemental effect Wood will
have, since lightening and ice really aren't elementals.

Instead, you should wonder about which spell catagory it will assist

Wood --- Health!!!

Nightfox
Message no. 10
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Elementals
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 10:52:22 -0500
>>>>> "Gurth" == Gurth <gurth@******.NL> writes:

Gurth> Don't forget wood... Oops :)

>> If you're going to bring in the 5 oriental elements, they are wood,
>> water, fire, rock, metal, if I remember correctly.

Gurth> No, not the oriental ones. I was thinking of ED, where the five
Gurth> elements are Air, Earth, Fire, Water, and Wood.

Strange; according to western lore, wood is composed of all four elements:
Fire (it burns), and Earth (leaving charcoal and ash), and Water (the sap),
and Air (smoke). The fifth element, Quintessence, was impossible to
quantify and was either in everything or nothing, depending on the
philosopher or alchemist in question. I guess it's just FASA showing their
ignorance again :).

--
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Message no. 11
From: "J.D. Falk" <jdfalk@****.CAIS.COM>
Subject: Re: Elementals
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 18:45:49 -0500
On Tue, 14 Feb 1995, Adam Getchell wrote:

> Correct. Rock dominates Water, Wood dominates Rock, Metal
> dominates Wood, Fire dominates Metal, and Water dominates Fire.

This sounds like a more complicated version of "Paper covers
rock. Rock breaks scissors. Scissors cut paper." *grin*
ObSR: Wouldn't it make sense that simple implements like scissors,
knives, etc. and even more useful things like hypodermic needles and
circuit testers would be built into people's fingers? Sure, the average
'runner wouldn't need it, but I could quite clearly see the higher classes
of office workers getting that type of thing.

-------------========== J.D. Falk <jdfalk@****.com> =========-------------
| "The problem was that there was a Stonehenge monument on the stage |
| that was in danger of being crushed by a dwarf. That tends to |
| understate the hugeness of the object." --This Is Spinal Tap |
--------========== http://www.cais.com/jdfalk/home.html ==========--------
Message no. 12
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Elementals
Date: Fri, 19 May 1995 09:53:34 +0200
>>, were it not for the fact that a watcher manifests in the same
>>way a mage does: by making a visual and aural appearance on the physical
>>plane, without being able to touch affect it in other ways. That means they
>>don't form a bridge between the two planes, so you can't ground through
>>them. (Bummer, isn't it?)

>Careful with the snide comments, our accuracy score is tied
>1 to 1 (you have verified a shamans ability to purchase

>elementals by now?){bummer wasn't it?}

Do you actually keep track of your "score" in a discussion with other
people? Jeez... :)

>SRII page 141 column 1 bottom paragraph
>"The magician who summoned the elemental can order the spirit
>to obey another character, whether magician or mundane."
>There is more but this covers the gist.

Ah yes, that's what you mean. I must confess that that is not exactly the
first thing I think about, and I also sincerely doubt a mage would sell an
elemental to a shaman -- if I'm correct, the elemental keeps linked in some
way to the mage, much like a spell lock... At the very least it counts
against the maximum the mage can bind to himself, whether he assigns it to
someone else or not.

>Does this make me a guru now?

That's not up to me to decide :) Damion and I were only nominated for that
by someone else, and though I can't speak for Dmaion, I accepted it just for
fun...
One more thing, just because someone forgets something doesn't mean, IMO,
that you should go question their abilities (at least not if we can't tell
whether you're serious or not -- try using a smiley if you're not).


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
What do I do next?
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Message no. 13
From: Terry Amburgey <xanth@****.UKY.EDU>
Subject: elementals
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 11:53:17 -0400
>Funny, but sad. This poor fellow is under utilising his elementals. Unless
>seriously low force, they are intellegent. Since the mage knows the parties
>aura, the elemental knows the parties aura. Also, bieng dual natured, they
>can read moods and intentions. Just tell them to go after anyone with violent
>intentions towards you. Or at the very least, anyone with light machine guns
>folowing the party. Watchers are to Dumb for this, but High force elementals
>are perceptive if not creative. Putting them on allert can use up a service
>if uneeded for 24 hours, but can save time in the middle of combat/ evasion.
>Sebastian

Mea culpa. The fire elemental tussling with the troll in the kitchen is a
force 5 and the earth elemental that I fragged up with is a force 4; both
are plenty smart [smarter than the summoner now that I think about it]. I
still wouldn't have them 'on alert' even if I could do it over again; I
don't think that having elementals tagging along at your astral 'heels' is a
good idea in general and the forces are high enough to ensure that the
'shimmer' will be noticed by onlookers. Terry
Terry L. Amburgey Office: 606-257-7726
Associate Professor Home: 606-224-0636
College of Business & Economics Fax: 606-257-3577
University of Kentucky
Lexington, KY 40506
Message no. 14
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Elementals
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 19:59:18 +0000
Hmmm...

Can somebody give me a plausible explanation why in hell a Fire
elemental (no pun intended ;P ) has Guard power, while other
elementals don't?

Or is it just an error in Polish version of the BBB? I don't
have the English one here... (BTW: The Polish translation of BBB is
better than the Polish Warhammer, but it's still goddamn awful. I
mean, couldn't they hire a decent translator that happens to actually
PLAY the game (like me ;P )? Uhhh...)

Also, I'd assume the Movement power of an elemental applies only to
somebody moving in the "right" element, right? Well, in that case,
why would Fire elemental need Movement power? It's not like moving on
fire is pretty common. (And if moving IN fire qualifies, then an Air
elemental can speed/slow anyone...)


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike; FIAWOL
FL/GN Leszek/Raptor II/ISD Vanguard, (SS) (PC) (ISM) {IWATS-IIC} JH(Sith)/House Scholae
Palatinae
More deviation, less population.
Message no. 15
From: "Logan Graves <Fenris>" <logan1@*****.INTERCOM.NET>
Subject: Re: Elementals
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 18:22:44 -0500
In our last episode, Leszek Karlik, aka Mike wrote:
>
> Can somebody give me a plausible explanation why in hell a Fire
> elemental (no pun intended ;P ) has Guard power, while other
> elementals don't?

> Or is it just an error in Polish version of the BBB? I don't
> have the English one here...

Nope your translation is correct. No idea why just the Fire E has
"Guard." Perhaps they needed one more ability to 'round out' the Fire
Elementals, or to keep them on par with the rest.

As for Movement:
Think of it as "mobility" & "counter-mobility." (The combat
engineers'
bailiwick!!) It allows the Spirit to aid or hamper another's ability to
travel.

However, the Fire Elemental doesn't have "movement" (at least not in the
earlier printings of the BBB softcover).

--Fenris
_______________________________________________logan1@*****.intercom.net
(>) [Meta-]physics isn't a religion.
If it were, we'd have a much
easier time raising money.
(>) --Leon Lederman, [hermetic mage]
Message no. 16
From: Fredrik Lindblom <fredrik.lindblom@******.KALMAR.SE>
Subject: Re: Elementals
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:35:02 +0100
At 19:59 1997-11-18 +0000, you wrote:
>Also, I'd assume the Movement power of an elemental applies only to
>somebody moving in the "right" element, right? Well, in that case,
>why would Fire elemental need Movement power? It's not like moving on
>fire is pretty common. (And if moving IN fire qualifies, then an Air
>elemental can speed/slow anyone...)

Hmmm... With a little tweaking it could allow a fire elemental to transport
a not-so-fire-resistant item (i.e. a character) through fire unharmed. I'm
a GM and I just might allow it... under the right circumstances, of course...

Just a thought.

/FL
Message no. 17
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Elementals
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:52:37 +0100
Leszek Karlik, aka Mike said on 19:59/18 Nov 97...

> Can somebody give me a plausible explanation why in hell a Fire
> elemental (no pun intended ;P ) has Guard power, while other
> elementals don't?

In my SRII hardback, first printing, in the critter table on page 235 a
fire elemental has Guard; it's also in the description on page 224 and the
spirits table on page 144, so I guess the translator at least didn't do
that wrong.

> Or is it just an error in Polish version of the BBB? I don't
> have the English one here... (BTW: The Polish translation of BBB is
> better than the Polish Warhammer, but it's still goddamn awful. I
> mean, couldn't they hire a decent translator that happens to actually
> PLAY the game (like me ;P )? Uhhh...)

I think the first thing you do when looking for a translator is NOT hire
anyone who has any obvious experience with the thing they're going to be
translating...

> Also, I'd assume the Movement power of an elemental applies only to
> somebody moving in the "right" element, right? Well, in that case,
> why would Fire elemental need Movement power? It's not like moving on
> fire is pretty common.

Well... maybe when walking across hot coals? :)

> (And if moving IN fire qualifies, then an Air elemental can speed/slow
> anyone...)

This is probably the same sort of deal as with nature spirits -- you're
always in the domain of only one nature spirit, never in two different
ones. Perhaps an air elemental can only use Movement on you if you're not
in contact with the "domain" of another elemenal -- IOW not touching the
earth, water, or fire.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The future. Available tomorrow.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 18
From: Sean Thurston <steiner@****.SPYDERNET.COM>
Subject: Re: Elementals
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 06:08:44 -0800
<unlurk>

On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, Gurth wrote:

> Leszek Karlik, aka Mike said on 19:59/18 Nov 97...
> > [why should Fire Elementals have Guard?]

<snip>

I had thought it was pretty clear: Each elemental can control movement
in its own element. A fire Elemental can help you stay safe when running
from that building you happened to be burning down.

Ask my players, if you dare, and you may hear of some attrocious magical
tinkering on my part.

An NPC rigger-mage (enjoy) decided to bond an Earth Elemental to his
motorcycle so he could go faster. Thank spirits for Increased
Initiative. His next project was to bond an Air Elemental to his
helecopter.

sean. "I am in touch with my inner pig."
Splat!GNU "Damn you, Andrew."
Blue.ELF "Blue.ELF, do not shoot your friends."
Message no. 19
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Elementals
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 19:05:13 -0500
In a message dated 97-11-18 14:08:32 EST, trrkt@*****.ONET.PL writes:

> Hmmm...
>
> Can somebody give me a plausible explanation why in hell a Fire
> elemental (no pun intended ;P ) has Guard power, while other
> elementals don't?
>
Remember that the "Guard" power works against things occurring within it's
given "influence" or "domain" (better for shamanically oriented
beings).
Fire Elemental Guard is good against Fire, magical or otherwise....think of
it as armor. Once you get to that, it isn't hard how to think up the spell
that protected Samuel V. against the dragon way back when....

-K
Message no. 20
From: Wyrmy <elfman@*****.NET>
Subject: Elementals
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 05:58:23 -0600
I don't know,maybe I'm going soft or something, but I think elementals
are just to dang easy to banish.I could believe banishing a watcher or
a nature spirit(quick,easy,and cheap to summon),But elementals take a
lot longer to conjure,And cost more.So I think elementals should have at
least 1/3 of their force added to their real force When their being
banished,Because of all the will and effort put into them.

Thats my $2.95(without tax :^)
Message no. 21
From: Johan FÀlt <is97jfa@*******.HK-R.SE>
Subject: Re: Elementals
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 03:07:35 +0100
> I don't know,maybe I'm going soft or something, but I think elementals
> are just to dang easy to banish.I could believe banishing a watcher or
> a nature spirit(quick,easy,and cheap to summon),But elementals take a
> lot longer to conjure,And cost more.So I think elementals should have at
> least 1/3 of their force added to their real force When their being
> banished,Because of all the will and effort put into them.
>
> Thats my $2.95(without tax :^)

I don't agree. Here's one reson. Nature Spirit are "easy" to conjure, ok.
Elemental Spirits takes time and money, ok. Now, a Nature Spirit can't leave
its domain, a Elemental Spirit can.

--
Johan Fält
E-mail: is97jfa@*******.hk-r.se
Homepage: http://hem.passagen.se/johanfk/index.html
Message no. 22
From: losthalo <losthalo@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Elementals
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 11:50:53 -0500
At 05:58 AM 2/18/98 -0600, you wrote:
>I don't know,maybe I'm going soft or something, but I think elementals
>are just to dang easy to banish.I could believe banishing a watcher or
>a nature spirit(quick,easy,and cheap to summon),But elementals take a
>lot longer to conjure,And cost more.So I think elementals should have at
>least 1/3 of their force added to their real force When their being
>banished,Because of all the will and effort put into them.

No, and there's a reason. Mages get all kinds of nifty special benefits
from elementals in the first place. Making them harder to banish, you've
now got both greater endurance and numbers on your side when going up
against a shaman's spirits. Elementals are already powerful enough, they
do not need a boost. The extra effort is for getting a spirit that can aid
sorcery, sustain spells, aid learning spells, all that wonderful stuff.

losthalo

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Elementals, you may also be interested in:

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