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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (LeBlanc, Lange)
Subject: Elementals power
Date: Mon Dec 17 13:45:01 2001
Finished a game last night and my players, as players always do, decided
to do something completely unplanned for. So using my incredible GM'ing
skills (read sarcasm here ;-]) most of the game was improvised. And
because of this, I ended up needing to use Manifested Elementals for the
first time. Because I'm still familiarizing myself with the more obscure
rules (and those damn chaotic rulebooks don't help) I ended up winging
it a lot. Here's the question I'm asking.

Air elemental, manifested ...

I like the idea of not being able to physically injure anyone or
anything while manifested (how much damage can a living cloud do?), but
powers like Noxious Breath are automatic, right? If the Touch
requirement is made, is the target's only defence the resistance roll?
And the power can't be staged, since there's no attack rolls made?

And since I didn't find rules to the contrary, I ended up letting the
PhysAd (WITHOUT killing hands) pummel the little bugger 'till it was
dissipated (using Force as Unarmed Combat skill + Combat Pool). The
characters barely survived, with 2 being choked into unconciousness. As
per the rules, can these types of attacks be done to Manifested Air
Elementals?

Forgive me if these questions seem to have obvious answers I've missed,
but I'm only 3 months GM'ing SR and can barely find time to get used to
the common rules, let alone the hidden, less used ones.
Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan)
Subject: Elementals power
Date: Mon Dec 17 14:15:01 2001
> I like the idea of not being able to physically injure anyone or
> anything while manifested (how much damage can a living cloud do?)

Expand into a bigger mist/smoke blob and engulf the parties
vehicle...driving blind is a good way to injure someone indirectly :)

Now as for was it possible for the physad without killing hands to do
anything to the air elemental...No. And for an obvious reason. Consider what
happens when you punch smoke/mist/cloud...you can break it apart but it
still exists. Now give that cloud intelligence and a desire to continue as a
whole. You break off a section, it reforms. You break off another section it
reforms.

The only way you're hurting an air elemental is with magical based attacks
or sticking that sucker into a really big damn fan.
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bira)
Subject: Elementals power
Date: Mon Dec 17 14:45:02 2001
On Mon, 17 Dec 2001 15:47:45 -0330
"Jonathan" <jhogan@**********.nf.net> wrote:

> The only way you're hurting an air elemental is with magical based attacks
> or sticking that sucker into a really big damn fan.
>

The fan wouldn't do much, just move the elemental around. But
remember that it's a spirit, so it doesn't follow strict physical rules
even in manifest form: no matter what kind of spirit it is, you can
still fight it using your Willpower and Charisma.


--
Bira <ra002585@**.unicamp.br>
Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan)
Subject: Elementals power
Date: Mon Dec 17 15:00:01 2001
manifest form: no matter what kind of spirit it is, you can
> still fight it using your Willpower and Charisma.
>

LOL I forgot about that way of fighting spirits...of course while you're
attempting to willpower the spirit away I'll opt for whacking it with a
weapon foci, call me old fashioned... ;)
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (LeBlanc, Lange)
Subject: Elementals power
Date: Mon Dec 17 15:10:01 2001
>
> manifest form: no matter what kind of spirit it is, you can
> > still fight it using your Willpower and Charisma.
> >
>
> LOL I forgot about that way of fighting spirits...of course
> while you're
> attempting to willpower the spirit away I'll opt for whacking
> it with a
> weapon foci, call me old fashioned... ;)


Strange, for some reason I thought that the Willpower/Charisma combat
options against spirits didn't apply to manifested. Don't really hurt my
game results any, since the PhysAd had a high enough Charisma to
approximate what I allowed with Unarmed Combat (although my female
players now refuse to seperate from the group anymore *L*)

I'll make sure to give the rules a few more reads over the holidays. But
thanks for giving me a starting point and some interpretations, guys 'N
gals.
Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bira)
Subject: Elementals power
Date: Mon Dec 17 16:40:01 2001
On Mon, 17 Dec 2001 16:30:40 -0330
"Jonathan" <jhogan@**********.nf.net> wrote:

> manifest form: no matter what kind of spirit it is, you can
> > still fight it using your Willpower and Charisma.
> >
>
> LOL I forgot about that way of fighting spirits...of course while you're
> attempting to willpower the spirit away I'll opt for whacking it with a
> weapon foci, call me old fashioned... ;)

I'd take the focus any day, too; IIRC, it allows you to use
normal combat rules. But if your team's best fighter is a mundane
samurai and his best melee weapon is a mop...


--
Bira <ra002585@**.unicamp.br>
Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Elementals power
Date: Tue Dec 18 02:40:01 2001
Jonathan writes:

> LOL I forgot about that way of fighting spirits...of course while you're
> attempting to willpower the spirit away I'll opt for whacking it with a
> weapon foci, call me old fashioned... ;)

Or you could just throw rocks at it - it has a vulnerability to Earth... ;-)
What's the damage for a rock from CC?

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Elementals power
Date: Tue Dec 18 06:05:04 2001
According to LeBlanc, Lange, on Mon, 17 Dec 2001 the word on the street was...

> Air elemental, manifested ...
>
> I like the idea of not being able to physically injure anyone or
> anything while manifested (how much damage can a living cloud do?) but
> powers like Noxious Breath are automatic, right?

As long as they can automatically touch the target, yes. Against an unwilling
(and aware) target, a melee attack test would be necessary.

> If the Touch
> requirement is made, is the target's only defence the resistance roll?
> And the power can't be staged, since there's no attack rolls made?

That's pretty much the conclusion we reached last week, yep.

> And since I didn't find rules to the contrary, I ended up letting the
> PhysAd (WITHOUT killing hands) pummel the little bugger 'till it was
> dissipated (using Force as Unarmed Combat skill + Combat Pool). The
> characters barely survived, with 2 being choked into unconciousness. As
> per the rules, can these types of attacks be done to Manifested Air
> Elementals?

Like you said, it doesn't say otherwise; a materialized spirit is present on
the physical plane and so can be touched. Since attacking a spirit is best
done with Willpower, it doesn't really matter how hard you hit it, just how
hard you _want_ to hit it.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"I know you're expecting me to take that as good news," Randy says.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (LeBlanc, Lange)
Subject: Elementals power
Date: Tue Dec 18 07:15:00 2001
> Or you could just throw rocks at it - it has a vulnerability
> to Earth... ;-)
> What's the damage for a rock from CC?
>

Didn't mention it, but the group was in Portland when the Air Elemental
manifested, and when they radio'd the mage for advice, he literally said
"throw dirt!" ... So being in Tir, one of the 2 characters ran to a
nearby sidewalk tree, she picked up some earth, and threw it ;-) I was
caught a little off guard, but decided to make some resistance rolls on
what I saw as a nice improvised 4L thrown weapon. Throwing didn't help
any (Force 6 elemental), but it got me to wondering how big a rock would
a person need to do some serious damage to the elemental?
Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Elementals power
Date: Tue Dec 18 08:25:01 2001
LeBlanc, Lange writes:

> Didn't mention it, but the group was in Portland when the Air Elemental
> manifested, and when they radio'd the mage for advice, he literally said
> "throw dirt!" ... So being in Tir, one of the 2 characters ran to a
> nearby sidewalk tree, she picked up some earth, and threw it ;-) I was
> caught a little off guard, but decided to make some resistance rolls on
> what I saw as a nice improvised 4L thrown weapon. Throwing didn't help
> any (Force 6 elemental), but it got me to wondering how big a rock would
> a person need to do some serious damage to the elemental?

Heheheh. Cool story. With a vulnerabilty to earth, "throwing dirt" may not
be such a bad idea. It'd increase the Damage Level by 1. A fist sized rock
would do about (Str)L Stun, I'd think (if shuriken do (Str)L, then a rock
ought to be comparable), so against an air spirit it would be (Str)M Stun.

Doing extra damage for size would be a bit tricky, but is probably OK,
because it can be assumed that a stronger character can throw bigger rocks,
which do more damage, which is represented by the (Str) Power. OTOH, this
doesn't cope with doing things like dropping big rocks from above and such.
I guess the falling damage codes could be used to approximate damage from
large (human sized or so) rocks.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan)
Subject: Elementals power
Date: Tue Dec 18 09:35:01 2001
> Doing extra damage for size would be a bit tricky, but is probably OK,
> because it can be assumed that a stronger character can throw bigger
rocks,
> which do more damage, which is represented by the (Str) Power. OTOH, this
> doesn't cope with doing things like dropping big rocks from above and
such.
> I guess the falling damage codes could be used to approximate damage from
> large (human sized or so) rocks.
>

Make a tribal axe or dagger from stone and beat the spirit with them :) Even
better empower them as foci and do double the damage! :)

That's something to consider though....Metals are technically of the earth
so what if you enchanted some pure metal bullets to hold an activatable
spell. ie enchanting a detect air elemental spirit spell to trigger say a
manaball-6 spell when the bullet hit the spirit...the bullet itself might do
no dmg but the triggered spell would make that strange street sam with the
old fashion six shooter a bit more imposing :)
Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (LeBlanc, Lange)
Subject: Elementals power
Date: Tue Dec 18 09:40:01 2001
> Make a tribal axe or dagger from stone and beat the spirit
> with them :) Even
> better empower them as foci and do double the damage! :)
>
> That's something to consider though....Metals are technically
> of the earth
> so what if you enchanted some pure metal bullets to hold an
> activatable
> spell. ie enchanting a detect air elemental spirit spell to
> trigger say a
> manaball-6 spell when the bullet hit the spirit...the bullet
> itself might do
> no dmg but the triggered spell would make that strange street
> sam with the
> old fashion six shooter a bit more imposing :)
>
Ummmmmm ... ouch? ;-)
Message no. 13
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan)
Subject: Elementals power
Date: Tue Dec 18 10:00:01 2001
> Ummmmmm ... ouch? ;-)
>

I admit though the enchanting and binding of such spells to a series of
bullets would be costly (hence the reference to a six shooter) but I can
just picture it. Western styled street sam gunning down his first
spirit....I'd love to see a GMs face when it happened...I shoot the spirit
with a pure silver bullet that has a detect air elemental spirit spell
force - 3 that triggers a manabolt/ball spell force 6 or 7....

GM rolls...Looks at the street sam with disgust and tells the player he's
just massacred the poor spirit... ;)

Be even worse if the bullets were re-usable and recoverable..... :)
Message no. 14
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: Elementals power
Date: Tue Dec 18 10:45:01 2001
Didn't mention it, but the group was in Portland when the Air Elemental
manifested, and when they radio'd the mage for advice, he literally said
"throw dirt!" ... So being in Tir, one of the 2 characters ran to a
nearby sidewalk tree, she picked up some earth, and threw it ;-) I was
caught a little off guard, but decided to make some resistance rolls on
what I saw as a nice improvised 4L thrown weapon.

Because the elemental is vulnerable to earth, then that improvised 4L weapon becomes a 6M
weapon. If they person had any skill with improvised weapons he could stage up. The
elemental does not get ihs immune to normal weapons since it is his vulnerability so all
of a sudden this 4L weapon can cause some damage.

John
Message no. 15
From: shadowrn@*********.com (LeBlanc, Lange)
Subject: Elementals power
Date: Tue Dec 18 10:55:01 2001
> Didn't mention it, but the group was in Portland when the Air
> Elemental
> manifested, and when they radio'd the mage for advice, he
> literally said
> "throw dirt!" ... So being in Tir, one of the 2 characters ran to a
> nearby sidewalk tree, she picked up some earth, and threw it ;-) I was
> caught a little off guard, but decided to make some
> resistance rolls on
> what I saw as a nice improvised 4L thrown weapon.
>
> Because the elemental is vulnerable to earth, then that
> improvised 4L weapon becomes a 6M weapon. If they person had
> any skill with improvised weapons he could stage up. The
> elemental does not get ihs immune to normal weapons since it
> is his vulnerability so all of a sudden this 4L weapon can
> cause some damage.
>
> John


I had decided to only make the damage 4L because a fistfull of soil
doesn't have a damage code normally. At least not for my game (maybe
skilled use of dirt in the eyes, but that's still not damage code
material ... it's a case-by-case judging of the effects). So taking
Vulnerability into account, I gave it the 4L.
Message no. 16
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Elementals power
Date: Tue Dec 18 19:50:01 2001
<snipt!(TM)>
> I admit though the enchanting and binding of such
spells to a series of bullets would be costly (hence
the reference to a six shooter) but I can just picture
it. Western styled street sam gunning down his first
spirit....I'd love to see a GMs face when it
happened...I shoot the spirit with a pure silver
bullet that has a detect air elemental spirit spell
force - 3 that triggers a manabolt/ball spell force 6
or 7....
>
> GM rolls...Looks at the street sam with disgust and
tells the player he's just massacred the poor
spirit... ;)
>
> Be even worse if the bullets were re-usable and
recoverable..... :)

Manaball?

The GM then gets the callous mage to call up another
air elemental and tells it to manifest right in front
of Cowboy Sammie's face.

Boom.

Boom.

Boom.

Boom.

Boom.

Now he has five normal bullets left...presuming he
survived the five Force 6 or 7 manaball spells he had
anchored to those bullets.

Ouch.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what the DOC' is COOKING!!!

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Message no. 17
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan)
Subject: Elementals power
Date: Tue Dec 18 20:35:01 2001
> The GM then gets the callous mage to call up another
> air elemental and tells it to manifest right in front
> of Cowboy Sammie's face.
>

Yeah there is that which could be a pain...I suppose you could have a
dampening "holster" that would negate the detection spells effects within
it's confines, in such caseunless you "draw" the gun you wouldn't mana ball
yourself, but I only used that as an example you could just as well use a
spirit ball/spirit bolt...

Another application is using weaker ammunition to do more dmg to structures.
Picture a sniper bullet, detect Armored glass/bullet proof glass or
whatever, and casts Wreck "glass" on the surface...glass smashes...bullet
continues unhindered. Sniper makes a rep for killing things through hard to
kill trhough substances :)

/me has been bored and been thinking about enchanted items too much...

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