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Message no. 1
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Elf/Dwarf Transforms, Part 1 (was RE: Breeder definition)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 09:03:01 -0600
>> Okay. Now give me chapter and verse, since your answer didn't
>> help me or the discussion I'm having a bit, and it's not very
>> convincing as stated.
>
>Do your own research.

What gives you the notion that I didn't? I did a bit of looking around
before I asked, and I wouldn't have bothered asking if I'd come up with a
conclusive answer.

>look in SR2 It came to pass where it is talking
>about how the races came to be.

As I said, it's inconclusive. There were a lot of UGE babies born starting
mid-to-late 2011, after the first wave of VITAS hit, but it doesn't say
*anywhere* that I can find that there weren't also transformations. And the
numbers just don't add up without them.

>As for when I referred to the races existing prior
>to the Awakening..I meant Centuries ever Thousands of years prior.

Now show me some game canon to support *that*. There isn't any.

>> As I said (or at least implied) before: There's *no* way that
>> there are as many elves and dwarves in the world as there are
>> without *some* of them transforming as the mana threshold crested
>
>Problem is you will not be able to find -any- documentation to float
>that argument..I've tried..Or do you want me to list everywhere I
>didn't find it.

What the hell do you think I'm trying to do here, for crying out loud?
Jesus, how stupid do you really think I am?

>> There aren't *that* many IEs running about, nor can you convince me
>> that there were that many spike babies.
>
>Then why did you ask the question in the first place if you are not
>open to the possibility that your position may not be the correct
>one.

I'm quite open to the possibility. I just happen to want *proof*, which you
have to this point not provided. You've provided a hypothesis with perhaps
two lines of text to back it up.

I never said I had even that much, for the record, which is why I'm on this
particular trail right now. My gut and common sense tell me that there had
to be a wave of such transformations.

>> There are too many old elves running around for all (or any,
>> for that matter) of them to have been born since 2011.
>
>IN the beginning I agreed..but without being able to prove it..ya just
>have to make it up for yourself..And chalk it up to one of those
>little details that got overlooked when they were creating the SR
>universe..

Well, until someone can offer solid proof that I'm wrong, I'm continuing to
run my world as if there were a wave of elf/dwarf transformations since
that's the only way FASA's numbers can make any damn sense.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 2
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Elf/Dwarf Transforms, Part 1 (was RE: Breeder definition)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 11:32:02 EST
In a message dated 2/18/1999 10:06:11 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
remo@***.net writes:

>
> Well, until someone can offer solid proof that I'm wrong, I'm continuing to
> run my world as if there were a wave of elf/dwarf transformations since
> that's the only way FASA's numbers can make any damn sense.

Gosh Patrick, you and I must be in similar boats, with just different oars to
row by...

-K
Message no. 3
From: GRANITE granite@**.net
Subject: Elf/Dwarf Transforms, Part 1 (was RE: Breeder definition)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 12:21:55 -0700
> >> Okay. Now give me chapter and verse, since your answer didn't
> >Do your own research.
> What gives you the notion that I didn't?

Hey.. I pointed you in the correct direction..I simply was not going
to go look it all up for you..afterall..If it is done for you..how
will you ever learn ;)

> >look in SR2 It came to pass where it is talking
> >about how the races came to be.
> As I said, it's inconclusive. There were a lot of UGE babies born starting
> mid-to-late 2011, after the first wave of VITAS hit, but it doesn't say
> *anywhere* that I can find that there weren't also transformations. And the
> numbers just don't add up without them.

I cannot find the referance right now..but Somewhere it has been said
that as a general rule..If it is not stated as fact then it did not
happen...as an example in the statements that follow:

-Elves are born to either humans or other Elves.
-Trolls transform from humans or are born to Trolls.

Using these statements the folowing would be true:

Elves are born
Trolls are either born or transform

That was simply an example..make of it what you will..I cannot recall
where ther referance to this manner of interpreting things is..and I
do not feel inclined to spend a couple of hours looking for it..but I
can say that as a GM I have found that using this ruling makes life
easier..and helps prevent weird interpretations of obscure rules..

> >As for when I referred to the races existing prior
> >to the Awakening..I meant Centuries ever Thousands of years prior.
> Now show me some game canon to support *that*. There isn't any.

Actually you are incorrect..Fact #1 Earthdawn is the past of
Shadowrun..Fact #2 There are numerous examples of characters
surviving from one game universe until the next..these universes are
approx 13,000 years apart..thus characters in both would have to be
thousands of years old..To name a two Lofwyr, Harlequin, And a
number of other elves of the subgroup IE..

> >Problem is you will not be able to find -any- documentation to float
> >that argument..I've tried..Or do you want me to list everywhere I
> >didn't find it.
> What the hell do you think I'm trying to do here, for crying out loud?
> Jesus, how stupid do you really think I am?

Calm down fella.. this is a friendly conversation..I never commented
on your intellegence level..and I will not..as for what you are
trying to accomplish..I have absolutely no idea..I have been in this
particular discussion a number of times..I as much as said so
originally and that was not good enough..I -have- done the
research..There simply is absolutely -no- support for the
transformation of any meta/human into an elf..However, there is
support for elves are born they don't transform..

> I never said I had even that much, for the record, which is why I'm on this
> particular trail right now. My gut and common sense tell me that there had
> to be a wave of such transformations.

It seems as though this would have had to happen..And it also seems
that it would make sense for it to have happened..but there is no
mention of it having happened..

> >IN the beginning I agreed..but without being able to prove it..ya just
> >have to make it up for yourself..And chalk it up to one of those
> >little details that got overlooked when they were creating the SR
> >universe..
>
> Well, until someone can offer solid proof that I'm wrong, I'm continuing to
> run my world as if there were a wave of elf/dwarf transformations since
> that's the only way FASA's numbers can make any damn sense.

LOL..Now we get down to the crux of it..Dude..the Gaming Police are
not going to bust down your door and put a gun to your head..Run
things your way in your game..shoot..it says that practically on the
first page of almost all of the FASA gaming material..

[Sounds of a door being broken into splinters..then of boots of
concrete..the distinctive clack, clack of charging handles on
automatic weapons]
Ermm...Perhaps you should follow the rules as written..........
--------------------------------GRANITE
"Rock Steady"
==============================================Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The
Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer
==============================================Understanding is a three edged sword. - Kosh
What is best in life?
To Crush Your Enemies,
See Them Driven Before You,
And To Hear The Lamentation Of Their Women. -Conan
I Am The LAW! -JD
Jamais Arriere
Message no. 4
From: Joshua Mumme Grimlakin@**********.com
Subject: Elf/Dwarf Transforms, Part 1 (was RE: Breeder definition)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 16:29:00 -0600
Sight this just has to be said for everyone invlolved in this heated debate.

Patrick Goodman wrote:

<A whole lotta snippin goin on.>

> I'm quite open to the possibility. I just happen to want *proof*, which you
> have to this point not provided. You've provided a hypothesis with perhaps
> two lines of text to back it up.
>
> I never said I had even that much, for the record, which is why I'm on this
> particular trail right now. My gut and common sense tell me that there had
> to be a wave of such transformations.
>
>
> Well, until someone can offer solid proof that I'm wrong, I'm continuing to
> run my world as if there were a wave of elf/dwarf transformations since
> that's the only way FASA's numbers can make any damn sense.

This is not directed at any one individual just the ones whom are haveing a
bloodpressure problem. IT IS JUST A GAME. Life will go on. <sorry saw Deep
impact again last night.>


Grimlakin
Message no. 5
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Elf/Dwarf Transforms, Part 1 (was RE: Breeder definition)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 17:04:37 -0600
:Well, until someone can offer solid proof that I'm wrong, I'm continuing
to
:run my world as if there were a wave of elf/dwarf transformations since
:that's the only way FASA's numbers can make any damn sense.


I'd be interested to see the math that lead you to that
conclusion. My own best guess is that the percentage of UGE children from
2011 - 203x must have been pretty high, but that once a decent sized
generation of elves was born, it could be self supporting.
Say that UGE rates apoached 30% (25% elf, 5% dwarf - that seems to fit
current ratios), for 25 years (2011-2036). That replaces almost the
entire reproductive population. In the next 30 years, the non-aged
population would come to reflect those ratios, as the UGE percentage breed
true. By 2060, we would have a older population of ONLY humans (people
over 50), and a mixed population of people under 50 (given my above
figures, almost 25% elf, and 5% dwarf). If people over 50 were 1/2 the
population at that point (unlikely) elves would be about 12.5% of the
population, and dwarves 2.5%. 85% of the population would be human, and
that portion would decrease as the elderly "pre awakened" portion died
off.
Since this is a greater number of dwarves and elves than SR claims,
the UGE rate could have been lower. Also, in certain localized areas or
ethnic groups, it could have been higher.

This also completely ignores Goblinization. Goblinization (and
subsiquent breeding by goblinized persons) was the primary source of Orc
and Troll populations, although there were also human born Goblin
children. For my purposes, what is interesting is that Goblinization
occurred *after* UGE, and affected maybe 1 in 10 *humans*. As such, it
decreses the portion of the pupolation that is human by 10%, without
requiring UGE to do the work. Also, due to the shorter lifespans of
trolls and orcs (due to early anti-meta oppresion, if nothing else), it
cuts the number of aged humans somewhat (10 percent of the humans born
before 2011 goblinized, but they probably are not still around).
Using the above methods of guestimation, and acounting for
Goblinization, its my guess that UGE ran at about 20% for maybe 20 years,
tapering off towards the end of that time.

When you consider how recently introduced metahumans are, compared to
the Humans who through most of thier youth would have wielded almost all
of the worlds political and financial power, you get a better picture of
the great upheval and social issues involved in the SR world. It makes
the "baby boomer effect" in the 1960's (and again in the 1980's...) look
downright pusilanimous.

Mongoose
Message no. 6
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Elf/Dwarf Transforms, Part 1 (was RE: Breeder definition)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 18:01:11 -0600
From: Ereskanti@***.com
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 1999 10:32 AM

>> Well, until someone can offer solid proof that I'm wrong, I'm
>> continuing to run my world as if there were a wave of elf/dwarf
>> transformations since that's the only way FASA's numbers can
>> make any damn sense.
>
>Gosh Patrick, you and I must be in similar boats, with just
>different oars to row by...

Is that good, or bad...?

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 7
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Elf/Dwarf Transforms, Part 1 (was RE: Breeder definition)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 21:18:08 EST
In a message dated 2/18/1999 7:04:41 PM US Eastern Standard Time, remo@***.net
writes:

>
> >Gosh Patrick, you and I must be in similar boats, with just
> >different oars to row by...
>
> Is that good, or bad...?

Honestly, neither one of us probably wants to know..........

-K
Message no. 8
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Elf/Dwarf Transforms, Part 1 (was RE: Breeder definition)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 21:59:50 -0600
From: GRANITE
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 1999 1:22 PM

>> >Do your own research.
>> What gives you the notion that I didn't?
>
>Hey.. I pointed you in the correct direction..I simply was not going
>to go look it all up for you.

As I said before, what gave you the notion that I didn't already look all of
this up?

>afterall..If it is done for you..how will you ever learn ;)

This has what to do with my question, exactly?

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 9
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Elf/Dwarf Transforms, Part 1 (was RE: Breeder definition)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 22:09:02 -0600
From: Ereskanti@***.com
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 1999 8:18 PM

>> >Gosh Patrick, you and I must be in similar boats, with just
>> >different oars to row by...
>>
>> Is that good, or bad...?
>
>Honestly, neither one of us probably wants to know..........

I was terrified that you might say something to that effect....

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 10
From: GRANITE granite@**.net
Subject: Elf/Dwarf Transforms, Part 1 (was RE: Breeder definition)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 00:13:57 -0700
> >Hey.. I pointed you in the correct direction..I simply was not going
> >to go look it all up for you.
> As I said before, what gave you the notion that I didn't already look all of
> this up?

Your concusions..I too had looked at the material before I threw
myself upon the very same boulders you are thrashing around
on..Until..I really read it with a slightly different perspective and
saw the difference between what it say and what I deduced..

> >afterall..If it is done for you..how will you ever learn ;)
>
> This has what to do with my question, exactly?

A perfect example of looking but not seeing.. At the end of the
sentence is a wink " ;) "
Have you never heard that phrase before?? From a teacher or parent..I
know my teachers used that one on me a few times..Of course that was
in the olden days..
It was meant more as a joke than anything..But since you only looked
at what I said instead of actually understanding it..you seem to have
taken it as some form of slight..

But in the end it seems that this one is solved by an answer from on
high.....
--------------------------------GRANITE
"Rock Steady"
==============================================Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The
Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer
==============================================Understanding is a three edged sword. - Kosh
What is best in life?
To Crush Your Enemies,
See Them Driven Before You,
And To Hear The Lamentation Of Their Women. -Conan
I Am The LAW! -JD
Jamais Arriere
Message no. 11
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Elf/Dwarf Transforms, Part 1 (was RE: Breeder definition)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 08:52:48 -0600
From: GRANITE
Sent: Friday, February 19, 1999 1:14 AM

>> >afterall..If it is done for you..how will you ever learn ;)
>>
>> This has what to do with my question, exactly?
>
>A perfect example of looking but not seeing.. At the end of the
>sentence is a wink " ;) "

I saw it. Your point? Let's say I failed to see the humor in the remark,
since the whole thing implied I'm either lazy or stupid.

>Have you never heard that phrase before?? From a teacher or parent..I
>know my teachers used that one on me a few times..Of course that was
>in the olden days..

I heard it all the time. Often from teachers who didn't know as much about
a subject as I did; I was a bright kid back in my school days.

>It was meant more as a joke than anything..But since you only looked
>at what I said instead of actually understanding it..you seem to have
>taken it as some form of slight..

Since that's how it seemed to be intended, yep. Not your fault that it's
how I interpret things, but that is how I saw it. If you intended no
slight, then I'll drop it.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 12
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Elf/Dwarf Transforms, Part 1 (was RE: Breeder definition)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 20:01:09 -0600
Why is all this old mail suddenly turning up all of a sudden? I'm going to
chalk it up to the vagaries of new list software. Interesting, though,
since I never saw this echo back the first time.

>-----Original Message-----
>From: shadowrn-admin@*********.org
>[mailto:shadowrn-admin@*********.org]On Behalf Of Patrick Goodman
>Sent: Thursday, February 18, 1999 10:00 PM
>To: shadowrn@*********.org
>Subject: RE: Elf/Dwarf Transforms, Part 1 (was RE: Breeder definition)
>
>
>From: GRANITE
>Sent: Thursday, February 18, 1999 1:22 PM
>
>>> >Do your own research.
>>> What gives you the notion that I didn't?
>>
>>Hey.. I pointed you in the correct direction..I simply was not going
>>to go look it all up for you.
>
>As I said before, what gave you the notion that I didn't already
>look all of
>this up?
>
>>afterall..If it is done for you..how will you ever learn ;)
>
>This has what to do with my question, exactly?
>
>--
>(>) Texas 2-Step
> El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
>
>
>
>

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