Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Elf/Dwarf Transforms, Part 2 (was RE: Breeder definition)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 09:13:12 -0600
>> >> ... Were there transformation into elves and dwarves to start
>> >> with?
>> >
>> >Nope..they are born that way..or existed prior to the awakening..
>>
>> Okay. Now give me chapter and verse, since your answer didn't help
>> me or the discussion I'm having a bit, and it's not very convincing
>> as stated.
>
>Nope... there were a few spike babies, but elves and dwarves are born, not
>goblinised.

They are now, but there's nothing explicitly stating there wasn't a wave of
(for lack of a better word) goblinizations at the beginning of the mana
cycle.

>Your figures are out because elves and dwarves started being born
>just after the turn of the century. 10 years later, UGE started.

Er, no. According to the history recorded in SR2 (borne out by Captain
Chaos in SR3), UGE births began in 2011, shortly after the VITAS plague and
shortly before Ryumyo appeared on December 24. Births before this are spike
babies, as the term is used by most of the characters in the source
material, and there apparently weren't enough of them to cause a panic.
*That* happened in the Year of Chaos, 2011.

It doesn't mention other transformations one way or another; I want
concrete, canon proof that my position is false. And I can't find any.

>The oldest non-spike elves would be hitting their mid/late-50s in SR time.

Okay....now explain the *old* elves. The ones who *look* like they're old.
Zessler in PRIME RUNNERS, for instance. An elf at 50, who was born an elf,
would appear in her early 30s at worst.

>You can find this in the "How it came to pass" section of SR2... should
>still be in SR3.

Looked there. Didn't provide answers, thus I asked yet another question and
take yet another unpopular stand in here.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 2
From: Brett Borger bxb121@***.edu
Subject: Elf/Dwarf Transforms, Part 2 (was RE: Breeder definition)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:51:18 -0500 (EST)
> >Nope... there were a few spike babies, but elves and dwarves are born, not
> >goblinised.
>
> They are now, but there's nothing explicitly stating there wasn't a wave of
> (for lack of a better word) goblinizations at the beginning of the mana
> cycle.

Um, you find the fact that they list Elves and dwarves as UGE births,
and Orks and Trolls as goblinization, but not that E's and D's WEREN'T
also goblinized a lack of proof? Seems like you are simply reaching
to try and prove your conclusion by saying no one has proven
otherwise, despite tons of circumstantial evidence...

I know there was a blip in SR2 about this near the race descriptions,
in the same place where half-breeds are denied...I don't have my book
at work...

> >Your figures are out because elves and dwarves started being born
> >just after the turn of the century. 10 years later, UGE started.
>
> Er, no. According to the history recorded in SR2 (borne out by Captain
> Chaos in SR3), UGE births began in 2011, shortly after the VITAS plague and
> shortly before Ryumyo appeared on December 24. Births before this are spike
> babies, as the term is used by most of the characters in the source
> material, and there apparently weren't enough of them to cause a panic.
> *That* happened in the Year of Chaos, 2011.
>
> It doesn't mention other transformations one way or another; I want
> concrete, canon proof that my position is false. And I can't find any.

Goblinizations happened some years after UGE births.

> >The oldest non-spike elves would be hitting their mid/late-50s in SR time.
>
> Okay....now explain the *old* elves. The ones who *look* like they're old.
> Zessler in PRIME RUNNERS, for instance. An elf at 50, who was born an elf,
> would appear in her early 30s at worst.

I know 50 year old humans who look 30, and 30 year olds that look 50.
Not everyone has to fit the perfect rule...

-=SwiftOne=-
Who doesn't fit many rules, perfect or otherwise
Message no. 3
From: Max Rible slothman@*********.org
Subject: Elf/Dwarf Transforms, Part 2 (was RE: Breeder definition)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 11:02:47 -0800
At 09:13 2/18/99 -0600, Patrick Goodman wrote:
>They are now, but there's nothing explicitly stating there wasn't a wave of
>(for lack of a better word) goblinizations at the beginning of the mana
>cycle.

...

>It doesn't mention other transformations one way or another; I want
>concrete, canon proof that my position is false. And I can't find any.

Basic logic: the lack of an explicit statement does not imply the truth
of that statement. In particular, you can't prove a negative; all you
can do is evaluate all available data to show that in an excellent sample
set you have no positives. In a game, as opposed to the real world, you
can occasionally get blanket statements about the universe that are
helpful for figuring it out, such as "no one ever transforms from a
human into an Elf or Dwarf", but the writers are not obligated to
state every negative about the universe they're building.

<facetious>
There is no proof that every citizen of the UCAS is required to keep a
1000 year old carp in a Ziplock bag tucked into their pocket, purse, or
body cavity at all times, but there's no concrete, canon proof that
that proposition is false, either. Sure, there aren't any mentions in
any of the source material, but they haven't even given us numbers on
the carp industry; the shadowrunners who break that law are too embarrassed
about it to talk about it in their posts on Shadowland! I'm sure the
Dunkelzahn cult would pay big money to the runners who track down the
carp that Dunky kept with *him*! It's probably carefully locked up
in a vault at the Draco Foundation awaiting magical analysis. "That's
ridiculous!" you may say; prove me wrong! Find a statement in the
canon material that mentions that the Carry a Carp law of 2019
exists solely in my fevered imagination!
</facetious>

The only mentions of transformation from human to another
metatype are goblinization to Ork or Troll and the transformation to
ghouls (which is later retconned into being an HMHVV variant). Orks
and Trolls can be born or goblinized; Elves and Dwarfs are born.
My collection of Shadowrun material is fairly extensive and I have
yet to encounter any statement that suggests humans can transform
into Elves or Dwarfs.

I think Mark Renouf's point about the staggering number of births is
correct: you start out with lots of genes expressing themselves because
the parents would have been born as that metatype, and metahuman births
to humans start to settle down after a generation. Just assume that
the demographics of the Shadowrun world were basically the same in 2010
as they are in 2050, only that the percentages of metatypes were unknown
at the time, as they were unexpressed. Forty years lets you churn a
lot of population. (To get really detailed, we have to acknowledge
that there hasn't been a complete replacement of the 2010 population; the
percentages of latent Elves and Dwarfs were probably higher than the 2050
demographic, since there are still people left from before the Awakening;
the percentages of Orks and Trolls could be lower because they have
a shorter generational time and Orks in particular have lots of kids.)

--
%% Max Rible %%% max@********.com %%% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "Ham is good... Glowing *tattooed* ham is *bad*!" - the Tick %%
Message no. 4
From: GRANITE granite@**.net
Subject: Elf/Dwarf Transforms, Part 2 (was RE: Breeder definition)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 12:32:00 -0700
> Basic logic: the lack of an explicit statement does not imply the truth
> of that statement. In particular, you can't prove a negative;
[Lots and lots chopped out in the interest in efficiency]

Very well stated Max...
--------------------------------GRANITE
"Rock Steady"
==============================================Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The
Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer
==============================================Understanding is a three edged sword. - Kosh
What is best in life?
To Crush Your Enemies,
See Them Driven Before You,
And To Hear The Lamentation Of Their Women. -Conan
I Am The LAW! -JD
Jamais Arriere
Message no. 5
From: Shaun E. Gilroy shaung@**********.net
Subject: Elf/Dwarf Transforms, Part 2 (was RE: Breeder definition)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 14:39:56 -0500
At 11:02 AM 2/18/99 -0800, you wrote:
>I think Mark Renouf's point about the staggering number of births is
>correct: you start out with lots of genes expressing themselves because
>the parents would have been born as that metatype, and metahuman births
>to humans start to settle down after a generation. Just assume that
>the demographics of the Shadowrun world were basically the same in 2010
>as they are in 2050, only that the percentages of metatypes were unknown
>at the time, as they were unexpressed. Forty years lets you churn a
>lot of population. (To get really detailed, we have to acknowledge
>that there hasn't been a complete replacement of the 2010 population; the
>percentages of latent Elves and Dwarfs were probably higher than the 2050
>demographic, since there are still people left from before the Awakening;
>the percentages of Orks and Trolls could be lower because they have
>a shorter generational time and Orks in particular have lots of kids.)

This raises only one question in my mind: "What about the IE?"

Were the Immortal elves in hiding/hibernating like the Dragons or did they
goblinize? with the return of Magic?


>%% Max Rible %%%

Shaun Gilroy [shaung@**********.net]
Online Technologies Corp.
Message no. 6
From: Jordan findlerman@*****.com
Subject: Elf/Dwarf Transforms, Part 2 (was RE: Breeder definition)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 11:51:52 -0800 (PST)
> This raises only one question in my mind: "What about the IE?"
>
> Were the Immortal elves in hiding/hibernating like the Dragons or
did they
> goblinize? with the return of Magic?


Nope. Read "Worlds Without End" by Caroline Specter. I am not sure
what they did about their ears...maybe some sort of permenant Mask
Spell Lock while the mana was low, but they lived through it
all....fully concious. Some even interacted with society on a large
scale. One became a Queen of France or England....my memory fails me.
I need to reread it.

But WWE is where to go for those answers.

--Fin
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message no. 7
From: hivemind hivemind@********.rr.com
Subject: Elf/Dwarf Transforms, Part 2 (was RE: Breeder definition)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 13:58:37 -0600
Shaun Gilroy [shaung@**********.net]wrote:

>This raises only one question in my mind: "What about the IE?"
>Were the Immortal elves in hiding/hibernating like the Dragons or did >they
goblinize? with the return of Magic?

No, they just lived through the intervening millennia. During the Fifth
World, they looked like humans, but were still immune to age & disease. For
more info on this, see Worlds Without End [novel] which has some flashback
scenes, as well as Harlequin [the first one].

hivemind
Message no. 8
From: Robert Watkins robert.watkins@******.com
Subject: Elf/Dwarf Transforms, Part 2 (was RE: Breeder definition)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 09:21:42 +1000
> >The oldest non-spike elves would be hitting their mid/late-50s
> in SR time.
>
> Okay....now explain the *old* elves. The ones who *look* like
> they're old.
> Zessler in PRIME RUNNERS, for instance. An elf at 50, who was
> born an elf,
> would appear in her early 30s at worst.

No worries... stress, bad lifestyle, lack of exercise, or excess sun.

The same things that make a lot of 30 year olds look in their late 40's and
50's. I mean, think about it... what do we consider as "looking" old.

A) Gray hair, wrinkles. Both acquired over time. Gray hair can come at any
age (heck, I knew a guy who went prematurely gray at 15!). Wrinkles come
from not looking after your skin, and exposure to sun.

Maybe some elves have better skin than others. The ones with the "bad" skin,
whilst still being as vigorous as a human in his/her prime, would look old.
They just would be rare.

--
Duct tape is like the Force: There's a Light side, a Dark side, and it
binds the Universe together.
Robert Watkins -- robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 9
From: Schizi@***.com Schizi@***.com
Subject: Elf/Dwarf Transforms, Part 2 (was RE: Breeder definition)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 20:04:57 EST
In a message dated 2/18/99 7:50:57 AM Pacific Standard Time, bxb121@***.edu
writes:

>
> Um, you find the fact that they list Elves and dwarves as UGE births,
> and Orks and Trolls as goblinization, but not that E's and D's WEREN'T
> also goblinized a lack of proof? Seems like you are simply reaching
> to try and prove your conclusion by saying no one has proven
> otherwise, despite tons of circumstantial evidence...

There might not be anywhere that says Elves and Dwarves didn't goblinize,
there is also no part that says Gargoyles didn't goblinize from hamsters.

OTOH, in teh novel (is it called IronHell or is that just the plotline?) the
lead dwarf is mentioned as goblinizing, when asked, everyone at FASA has said
(by everyone I mean Randall and DLOH) that this was a huge error, since
Dwarves do not goblinize. Just another error that slipped in because
shadowrunners don't proof the books for them. So it may not be in a rulebook,
but FASA has said it plenty of times.
(And of course novels are not canon, so the dwarf in there is no proof,
though you may not agree)

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Elf/Dwarf Transforms, Part 2 (was RE: Breeder definition), you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!