Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Nightfox <DJWA@******.UCC.NAU.EDU>
Subject: Elves
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1993 15:35:49 -0700
Jenna Ni'Fairra - she is one of the ancient elves. and a Tir Prince.
But she is not the blood queen like people say - that is an ancestor
of hers.

The unknown Tir Prince is one Sosan Naerain.


Dan
Message no. 2
From: Threl McAllister <maxim@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Elves
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 1994 09:04:23 -0500
DO Harlequin elves look any different than regular elves?



--
Ahern T. Stephan
maxim@*******.mankato.msus.edu

***********************************************************
* Arthur: "But can we trust him?" *
* Ford: "Myself I'd trust him to the end of the Earth." *
* Arthur: "Oh yes, and how far is that?" *
* Ford: "About twelve minutes away." *
***********************************************************
Message no. 3
From: Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: Elves
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 1994 10:37:04 +1000
Threl McAllister wrote:

> DO Harlequin [...]

Please do not post questions to the list which may be spoilers,
without putting something in the subject line (`Possible spoiler').

luke
Message no. 4
From: "J.W.Thomas" <cm5323@***.AC.UK>
Subject: Elves
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 1994 15:17:37 +0100
Elves aint so smug when they got no guts left
GITTER, Dwarf samuri

Never call a Dwarf a 'Lawn Ornament'...this is a killing insult

The HI HO song is in the back pocket of every Dwarfs Genes

CHOPPER
With apologys to Terry Prachett
Message no. 5
From: "L.T.Bryant" <cs5025@***.AC.UK>
Subject: ELVES
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 1994 09:26:00 +0100
HI all

i dont want to tread on any toes but the elves getting the
goodies has produced some well fashist elves, after reading the
tir tange source book i closed it and said " Thats a fine bunch
of Nazi Elves" and most of the stuff ive found backs me up, If
you all dont beleve me try to find the documentrys on the
westbank/Isrel that ITV did a last year where members of the
isreali army said that there where nazi Jews growing up as they
had always been told that the palistiniens were inferior, Watch
out all or the bogi elves will come and get you ..




CRUSH ELVISH IMPERIALISM NOW


Where did i leave my turn to anti-matter spell fomulea ????!!

bye
--
oh rose thou art sick
the invisible worm that flys by night.....STEEL
Message no. 6
From: Paolo Marcucci <marcucci@***.TS.ASTRO.IT>
Subject: ELVES (fwd)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 1994 11:12:08 METDST
>
> CRUSH ELVISH IMPERIALISM NOW
^^^^^^

But wasn't Elvish supposed to be dead?

*duck*

--
______________________________________________________________________
Paolo Marcucci Osservatorio Astronomico di Trieste - Italy
marcucci@***.ts.astro.it http://www.oat.ts.astro.it/marcucci.html
(1.0.1) GCS/GMU d-- -p+ c++ l- u+ e* m+ s n-- h* f+? g- w+/++ t+ r+ x+
______________________________________________________________________
"Visual Basic: You'll shoot yourself in the foot, but you'll have so
much fun doing it that you won't care."
Message no. 7
From: Graeme Collin <graeme@****.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: ELVES (fwd)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 1994 10:42:44 BST
>> CRUSH ELVISH IMPERIALISM NOW
^^^^^^
> But wasn't Elvish supposed to be dead?

Elvish will live forever! The King will never die!

> *duck*

Quack! ;)

G.
Message no. 8
From: Boehme Christian <boehmec@******.UNI-MARBURG.DE>
Subject: Elves
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 1994 13:23:00 CST
Hmmm, I don't have the rulebook with me, but as far as I remember the
racial modifiers for every metahuman race add up to +3. So the elves
are the only ones who don't get negative modifications, but there
positive ones are smaller, too. Am I wrong ? If not, there is no
advantage for elves anyway.
Message no. 9
From: Christopher Higgins <as812@*******.CARLETON.CA>
Subject: Re: Elves
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 1994 11:16:28 -0400
>
>Hmmm, I don't have the rulebook with me, but as far as I remember the
>racial modifiers for every metahuman race add up to +3. So the elves
>are the only ones who don't get negative modifications, but there
>positive ones are smaller, too. Am I wrong ? If not, there is no
>advantage for elves anyway.
>
Exactly! Elves have a total of +3/-0, Dwarves have +4/-1, Orks get
+5/-2 and Trolls get +9!/-6!.
I think that's why Elves seem more powerful. They can match humans in
every Attribute except two, in which case they exceed them. On the other
hand, Trolls can only match humans in two Attributes but in those two,
they exceed humans by miles!
Humans need their sense of advantage. They can call Orks and Trolls
inferior because "they're stupid" and Dwarves are "short and slow".
Unfortunately, they can't attack Elves from the same direction because
Elves can match humans at any level. It's that same old moronic "If you
can't improve yourself, drag everyone else down to your level."
However, it's the same attitude that creates the arrogant demeanor of
the Elves of Tir Tairngire and Tir Na nOg. That's why my elven charcters,
if not born and raised, spend some time in Tarislar.
Christopher Higgins.
Message no. 10
From: Gian-Paolo Musumeci <musumeci@***.LIS.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Elves
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 1994 12:13:51 -0500
If you'll notice, all metahumans have a total of +3. Always. Therefore, at
least on a stat basis, they're all equal and humans are at a disadvantage. This
is made up for by freeing up an 'A' rating to put in, say, resources. =)
Message no. 11
From: Bryan Prince <WALAB@******.HH.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Elves
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 1994 12:57:38 -0600
After carefully reading all the posts of the last couple of days, and
remembering Ivy K's advice ... that the game PLAYED BY THE RULES is well
balanced...(my translation, not a direct quote), I must come to the
conclusion that FASA didn't overbalance the Elves or downgrade the rest of the
Metas, except in one point. All the elves listed, except for Dodger, are
'legendary' in that they have been around since WWII (the spike baby theory),
and are all incredibly rich, powerful ect. As long as all the PC's are at the
same level, there is no overbalance of power.
ey are also vampires, but that's a whole 'nother can o' worms..)
BTW: FASA still needs to do sourcebooks for the other metas...IMHO
:)
Shadowmaster
Message no. 12
From: Bryan Prince <WALAB@******.HH.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Elves...
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 1994 13:03:42 -0600
From: LHMRBA::WALAB 6-JUN-1994 13:02:01.90
To: WALAB
CC:
Subj:

After carefully reading all the posts of the last couple of days, and
remembering Ivy K's advice ... that the game PLAYED BY THE RULES is well
balanced...(my translation, not a direct quote), I must come to the
conclusion that FASA didn't overbalance the Elves or downgrade the rest of the
Metas, except in one point. All the elves listed, except for Dodger, are
'legendary' in that they have been around since WWII (the spike baby theory),
and are all incredibly rich, powerful ect. As long as all the PC's are at the
same level, there is no overbalance of power. So at least elves don't suck
anymore (unless they are also vampires, but that's a whole 'nother
can o' worms..)
BTW: FASA still needs to do sourcebooks for the other metas...IMHO
:)
Shadowmaster
Message no. 13
From: John Fox <johnf@*****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Elves
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 1994 13:05:56 -0500
> All the elves listed, except for Dodger, are
> 'legendary' in that they have been around since WWII (the spike baby
> theory),

Wrong. One of the novels shows that Dodger is also a spike baby.
I think it is Never Trust an Elf.

John Fox
johnf@*****.edu
Message no. 14
From: "L.T.Bryant" <cs5025@***.AC.UK>
Subject: ELVES
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 1994 09:39:13 +0100
Well after yesterday and the coments that came back ill stop
acting like a rabid humanis and be resonable,

The reson that i got so exited was that
A] its the end of my second year on a bsc chemistry corse and
the pressure of exams is getting to me.
B] im trying desperatly to get a good arument going to provoke
some thoughts over the summer and get some good ideas on the
group in the autum or when ever as i realy get a bit fead up (
like ro i suppose) of guns, spell locks and the repetative
topics, Yes sex/raceisam is important yes it may or maynot e
around in SR {thats a GM call} but when it comes up day in day
out and repeats just when you think yove got rid of it it can
drive you mad.

C] the elves are the obvoius target, have you read the tir na
nog book i did then i counted the iniates in there and tryed
working out the amount of karma that they would have to get, its
quite a lot .... ok ok its a awful lot of karma , the outher
things are small things like how a lot of the time the elven
nations run roughshod over must of the things that concern me as
a person and some of my carictors as themselves, but there you
go.


BTW the last section on the note on elves was the majority of
the joke, the section on the fanatics is from a badge that is
rather suttle and the meatheads line is from Nemisis the warlock
From 200AD the comic and was ment to e a little self derisive,
and showed ( I Hope That i wasent all that serious).

Any way me and my bad spelling will sign off for anouther wile
and aweight results.
BYE
--
oh rose thou art sick
the invisible worm that flys by night.....STEEL
Message no. 15
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: ELVES (fwd)
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 1994 14:49:44 -0700
On Mon, 6 Jun 1994, Paolo Marcucci wrote:

> >
> > CRUSH ELVISH IMPERIALISM NOW
> ^^^^^^
>
> But wasn't Elvish supposed to be dead?
>
> *duck*
> Paolo Marcucci

"OUTGOING"!!


BOOOOM!

He deserved it Kapitan.

Definitely.

Ivy <giggle>
Message no. 16
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: Elves
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 1994 15:30:31 -0700
On Mon, 6 Jun 1994, Bryan Prince wrote:

> After carefully reading all the posts of the last couple of days, and
> remembering Ivy K's advice ... that the game PLAYED BY THE RULES is well
> balanced...(my translation, not a direct quote), I must come to the

Wow! Thanks for the listen! Really!

> conclusion that FASA didn't overbalance the Elves or downgrade the rest of the
> Metas, except in one point. All the elves listed, except for Dodger, are
> 'legendary' in that they have been around since WWII (the spike baby theory),
> and are all incredibly rich, powerful ect. As long as all the PC's are at the
> same level, there is no overbalance of power.
> ey are also vampires, but that's a whole 'nother can o' worms..)

I lost most of a line or two here. What were you saying about Vampires?
I'm curious, as I have a player who wants to play one. I'm thinking of
charging the A pick for it (I use the "More Metahumans" rule). She wants
an old one, so my thoughts are; NO Cyber! (She'll probably want a V;tM
vampire, game crossovers are a speciality of mine, but. . .)

> BTW: FASA still needs to do sourcebooks for the other metas...IMHO
> :)
> Shadowmaster
>
Oh, yeah, what I was gonna say about those rich old elves. Those are
supposed to so far out there that the characters can never bother them in
any way. The NPC elves they have, like Dark Angel, are normal SRII elves.
Those slots running the Tir, on the other hand, are bad news.
According to what I have on hand, which is everything but the novels (I
do have "Into the Shadows") Ehran, Harlequin, Lugh, Jenna, and Aethne are
left over from the last age of magic. The 4th world! Therefore, they
'have' to be bad news, they've had over 6,000 years to practice!

Heck, I have two Players, with Characters with 350+ Karma Pools who keep
out of those old elves ways. They're useful, to me anyway.

Thanks again for the egoboo

Ivy
Message no. 17
From: carmen sbordone <sbordo16@******.NEWPALTZ.EDU>
Subject: elves
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 1995 14:11:09 -0400
hello,
sorry to be a bother, but I'd like to know more about these here
pain in the....(elves). What references should I look into, other than both
Tir books?

carmen

>
> >
> > *wipes a tear from his eye*
> >
> > I am so incredibly... moved... by this outpouring of hatred against the
> > elves of Shadowrun. I despise their kind and their machinations. Even
> > though my best character ever (the one I use as address and nickname) was an
> > elf, I never liked the NPC main-player elves one bit. Runners as elves are
> > no problem whatsoever, but do I ever hate the Ehran's and Harle(can't say
> > the rest cause I'll gag) and Laverty and the rest of their ilk.
> > ________________________________________
> >
> I have to go with the Cat on this one, folks. *Prepares his Flame-resistant
> armor* Elves have becme the biggest pain in the arse for all SR players. With
> their extended politcl scheme and belief that they are God's gift to the
> world, (Whoever ther god is) elves are becoming more of a nuisence (sp? I
> know it's wrong) than a help to the game.
>
> NightStorm
>
> "We have to rid the world of all the Pointy-Eared Freaks,
> Warty-Knuckle-Draggers, and most of all, thse Short, Balding Faggots!!!!!!" -
> Humanis Policlub Member (All of them)
>
Message no. 18
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: elves
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 11:15:44 +0100
carmen sbordone wrote:
>
> hello,
> sorry to be a bother, but I'd like to know more about these here
> pain in the....(elves). What references should I look into, other than both
> Tir books?

Both Harlequin modules, the Dark Angel module, Aztlan sourcebook, Never
trust an elf, Nosferatu, House of the sun, Earthdawn main rulebook and
other sourcebooks. Basically reading everything helps quite a bit :)

BTW did anyone notice that Harlequin is horror-tainted ?

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 19
From: Mark Steedman <RSMS@******.EEE.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: elves
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 11:23:12 GMT
Jani Fikouras writes


> BTW did anyone notice that Harlequin is horror-tainted ?
>
I assume you mean from the actions of certain beings in 'House of the
Sun'. I saw that but it probably means hes been 'Horror Marked'
rather than tainted as in ED folks practice artisan skilld to show
they are free of horror taint but this trick does not detect 'Horror
Mark'.
for those that don't know.
A horror mark is a the result of a horror power that lets a particular
horror do things to you at considerably less than your full defense
potential
Corruption is i think a worse stage where you have been actually
twisted by a horror.
I have seen corrupted NPC's they work for a horrors ends, the whole
ED party nearly is horror marked and it does not stop us trying to
outright kill the horror that did that. [ that thing has got to go :(
]

Mark
Message no. 20
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: elves
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 21:17:47 +0100
Jani Fikouras said on 17 Oct 95...

> BTW did anyone notice that Harlequin is horror-tainted ?

Yes. From the opening story in HB it's clear... Vestrial (it's him/her,
right? I keep forgetting those Passion names) says "Have you forgotten the
horror?" to which Harlequin says "I can't..." Then of course there's House
of the Sun where the creatures attack him because they see him as having
associated with Horrors in the past.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It's real and it's fake and it's bleeding like a steak
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(--) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 21
From: Tim Kerby <tkerby@***.NET>
Subject: Re: elves
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 21:50:36 EDT
On Sun, 17 Sep 1995 21:17:47 +0100 Gurth wrote:

>Jani Fikouras said on 17 Oct 95...
>
>> BTW did anyone notice that Harlequin is horror-tainted ?
>
>Yes. From the opening story in HB it's clear... Vestrial (it's him/her,
>right? I keep forgetting those Passion names) says "Have you forgotten the
>horror?" to which Harlequin says "I can't..." Then of course there's
House
>of the Sun where the creatures attack him because they see him as having
>associated with Horrors in the past.

I just read that book. How in the hell did I miss Harlequin in it? Please
refresh my memory...


____TIM KERBY____ |===================================================
tkerby@***.net |"Never relax. Your run may be over, but someone, somewhere,
drekhead@***.com | is just starting his and the target could be you."
_________________ |===================================================
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1
GCA d-(+)@ s: a- C+(++)>+++$ U--- P? L+ E? W N o? K- w--- O++>+++$ M-- V? PS+ PE++
Y PGP- t+(++) 5 X+ R(+) tv@ b++ DI(+) D++ G e h--- r+++ y+++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 22
From: HALOWEEN JACK <SBC3KCB@*******.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: elves
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 10:24:45 GMT
if any one has read the latest shadowrun novel at world's end?????? i
think that possibly most of the immortal elves are marked in some way.
alichia smirks when ysgrathe drops the body of aithne son.harlequin
is aina was.what about the others
Message no. 23
From: Mark Steedman <RSMS@******.EEE.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: elves
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 16:25:04 GMT
Tim Kerby writes

> >Jani Fikouras said on 17 Oct 95...
> >
> >> BTW did anyone notice that Harlequin is horror-tainted ?
> >
tainted? , certainly horror marked, but is there really a
difference?, thats an annoying question that i cannot get at the
answer to, for some reason the ED GM doesn't seem to let that one go
:(.

> >Then of course there's House
> >of the Sun where the creatures attack him because they see him as having
> >associated with Horrors in the past.
>
> I just read that book. How in the hell did I miss Harlequin in it? Please
> refresh my memory...
>
Quintin Harletch [spelling may be wrong]

reverse word order as the Telestrian Industries Corporation lady does
and repeat at speed a few times, your brain should soon substitute
something familiar :)

Mark
Message no. 24
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Elves
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 12:02:13 +0100
Droopy said on 7:18/10 Apr 97...

> We still don't know if Frosty is immortal yet.

Harlequin's Back page 148 says "She carries her father's immortality
trait, though Harlequin has not told her this yet."

It also looks like she's had plastic surgery in the time between H and HB,
going by the picture :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Creativiteit in de handen van ambtenaren is zoiets
als een staaf dynamiet in een kinderknuistje.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 25
From: Droopy <droopy@*******.NB.NET>
Subject: Re: Elves
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 10:13:09 +0000
> From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
> Organization: Plastic Warriors
> Subject: Re: Elves

> > We still don't know if Frosty is immortal yet.
> Harlequin's Back page 148 says "She carries her father's immortality
> trait, though Harlequin has not told her this yet."

That doesn't mean that she IS immortal, just that she COULD BE
immortal. I asked Mike this question a year or so ago and his answer
was that she hasn't lived long enough to know if she's immortal.


--Droopy
droopy@**.net
Message no. 26
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Elves
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 11:36:34 +0100
Droopy said on 10:13/12 Apr 97...

> > Harlequin's Back page 148 says "She carries her father's immortality
> > trait, though Harlequin has not told her this yet."
>
> That doesn't mean that she IS immortal, just that she COULD BE
> immortal. I asked Mike this question a year or so ago and his answer
> was that she hasn't lived long enough to know if she's immortal.

Okay, okay... Let's just say she's got a good chance of being immortal
then...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I will hold my breath until all these shivers subside.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 27
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Elves
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 10:20:23 -0600
Rune Fostervoll wrote:
|
| >Me, I don't like the way elves are portrayed in the Shadowrun. And, I'm
| >not to keen on players that play sterotypical elves.
|
| Heh... one of my players recently wanted to play a totally stereotypical
| Tolkienish elf. Not because he's an elfophile, but for comic relief.
| He would be totally disgusting; a cross between Dame Edna and
| Hrung the barbarian. I kinda liked the idea...

LOL Okay, there's an exception to everything :)

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 28
From: Mike Sapp <cynner29@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Elves
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 15:42:07 -0400
At 08:36 AM 9/22/97 -0600, you wrote:
>Mike Sapp wrote:
>|
>| Hi, my name's Mike and I hate Elves.
>
>Wow. I didn't think it was possible to be a racist towards an imaginary
>race <boggle>. That must take a lot of work ;)
>

Humanis Poli - 1997
Actually it's not quite on the order of racism, I don't make life
hard on Elven PCs or NPCs. I just don't play them when I, on the
rare occasion, get to play.

>Me, I don't like the way elves are portrayed in the Shadowrun. And, I'm
>not to keen on players that play sterotypical elves.
>

These aren't stereotypical elves, they just share a racial tendency.
The severity of the lack and how that lack manifests varies greatly,
just as every other tendency in SR, nodules on trolls, orc tusks, dwarven
size.

>Telling players that elf=Spock is going way to far, IMO. A simple,
>"Play an elf that has depth and a meaty character, and not some daisy
>picking fair." would be a much better approach, again IMO.

Spock is the exact thing I don't allow as a racial tendency. If someone
wanted to play a cold blooded proffessional then it's an option but it's
not Elven specific.

Background though is a must for any PC, it isn't race specific.
Trolls, orcs and dwarves deal with a stigma due to thier looks,
if a little realism is involved. Elves need something more subtle.

It's a roleplaying solution instead of a mechanics rewrite.

Cynner -
Message no. 29
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Elves
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 10:23:12 +0100
Tobias Berghoff said on 15:58/25 Sep 97...

> Ever heard of 'Geek the troll first!'? (I'm more afraid of trolls than of
> mages. All the others will shoot the mage, but nobody wants to beat the
> hell out of a troll)

As long as the mage and the mundane troll stay at a distance from you, the
mage is more dangerous IMHO. After all the troll can shoot you, but so can
the dwarf, elf, human, or ork. Once they get into melee range, _then_ you
need to watch out for the troll :)

> g> The other side of all this is another player in my group who hadn't really
> g> played RPGs before, and he's playing a troll sorcery adept in SR, and a
> g> troll warrior in Earthdawn.
>
> I like him.

Then, if you don't mind me saying so, you're doing exactly the same as the
short fat elf-player you mentioned... For all you know he's incredibly
munchkin and/or projecting all his desires onto that character.

(For the record, he doesn't, and the reason he plays two trolls is because
I'd made up the Shadowrun character (he got three to pick from and picked
this one because he liked a magician), while for the ED character he
rolled a D8 for the race...)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Zo buurman, ik hier?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 30
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: Elves
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 17:24:00 GMT
on 26.09.97 gurth@******.NL wrote:

g> > Ever heard of 'Geek the troll first!'? (I'm more afraid of trolls than of
g> > mages. All the others will shoot the mage, but nobody wants to beat the
g> > hell out of a troll)
g>
g> As long as the mage and the mundane troll stay at a distance from you, the
g> mage is more dangerous IMHO. After all the troll can shoot you, but so can
g> the dwarf, elf, human, or ork. Once they get into melee range, _then_ you
g> need to watch out for the troll :)

Gurth, you have a whole lot of metas in you group, you know? :)
Serious: I guess it's just a habit I got. Usually, when a mage tries to
mess around with my group, he gets more lead than you average nuclear
reactor. I'll take the troll, the mage's a beafsteak anyway.


g> > g> The other side of all this is another player in my group who hadn't
g> > g> really played RPGs before, and he's playing a troll sorcery adept in
g> > g> SR, and a troll warrior in Earthdawn.
g> >
g> > I like him.
g>
g> Then, if you don't mind me saying so, you're doing exactly the same as the
g> short fat elf-player you mentioned... For all you know he's incredibly
g> munchkin and/or projecting all his desires onto that character.

Well, someone, who wants to be a troll seems rather strange to me. :)
From experience, I'd say that trolls are rather hard to play, really fun
to be around and nowhere near perfect, which makes them interesting to me.
It's (IMO) not the same to play elfs all the time and to play trolls all
the time. People might take trolls or orks the first time they write a
char, because they think the char'll be nearly immortal, but after a
while, they'll get what it means to be one of the ugly metas in SR.



Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK------------
GAT/CS/S/IT d--- s+:- !a>? C++(++++)
UL++(++++) P+ L++ E W+ N+(+++) o? K?(-)
w---() O- M-- V- PS+ PE- Y+>++ PGP-
t+(++) 5+ X++ R* tv b++ DI(+) D++ G>++
e>+++++(*) h! r-- z?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK-------------
Message no. 31
From: "Wendy Wanders, Subject 117" <KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Elves
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 18:40:45 -0500
You wrote:
> Well, someone, who wants to be a troll seems rather strange to me. :)
> From experience, I'd say that trolls are rather hard to play, really fun
> to be around and nowhere near perfect, which makes them interesting to me.
> It's (IMO) not the same to play elfs all the time and to play trolls all
> the time. People might take trolls or orks the first time they write a
> char, because they think the char'll be nearly immortal, but after a
> while, they'll get what it means to be one of the ugly metas in SR.
Just wanted to remind y'all that beauty is one've those things that isn't
objective... We keep talking about elfs as 'pretty', when to some they
wouldn't be. I know plenty of huys who don't find women with blonde hair
attractive, for instance. I'd say that orks would tend to base their ideas of
attractiveness on being an ork, et cetera. Some people might idealize elfs as
beautiful, but I think people on this list (no, not just you, Charon) are
overstating the case. Sure there are differences between elfs and trolls,
but... to say that the motivations between playing one and playing the other
are so different is silly, in my not-so-humble opinion. Stop whining about
elfs. They have weird eyes and they're too damn skinny.



losthalo
Message no. 32
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Elves
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 11:14:24 +0100
Wendy Wanders, Subject 117 said on 18:40/ 5 Oct 97...

> Just wanted to remind y'all that beauty is one've those things that isn't
> objective... We keep talking about elfs as 'pretty', when to some they
> wouldn't be.

Elves are pretty by human standards, but like you say it depends on what
you personally think is beautiful or attractive. However, in this case I
think things get judged by human standards; on average, humans don't find
wrinkly faces with large tusks attractive, so orks aren't deemed
attractive; elves OTOH exhibit most of the features that humans want to
be, physically at least: they're tall, they're thin, they look young
forever, and so on. A great many people nowadays think all these so-called
"supermodels" look good; add pointy ears and 300 years of extra lifespan
to them and you have an elf => those same people will find elves
beautiful.

> I know plenty of huys who don't find women with blonde hair attractive,
> for instance. I'd say that orks would tend to base their ideas of
> attractiveness on being an ork, et cetera.

In part, I'd say you're right. Still, beauty is also what society wants to
you believe is beautiful. In the 17th century (IIRC), for example, fat
women were considered beautiful; today, well... So I have this feeling
that orks and trolls would consider elves beautiful to a much further
extent than the other way around.

> Stop whining about elfs. They have weird eyes and they're too damn
> skinny.

And too tall ;)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Forgetting anything as exciting as this would be an
exercise in futility.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 33
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: Elves
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 13:24:00 GMT
on 05.10.97 KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU wrote:

K> > me. It's (IMO) not the same to play elfs all the time and to play trolls
K> > all the time. People might take trolls or orks the first time they write
K> > a char, because they think the char'll be nearly immortal, but after a
K> > while, they'll get what it means to be one of the ugly metas in SR.

K> Just wanted to remind y'all that beauty is one've those things that isn't
K> objective...

True, still it's not completly subjective. Noone would think of a troll as
beautiful, except for a troll (have you ever seen the pictures in SR1?).
And even they will thinks of other (meta)humans as more beautiful, I
think.

K> We keep talking about elfs as 'pretty', when to some they
K> wouldn't be.

To most they are. Example: Try to find a male who tells you...say...Milla
Jovovich is ugly. Should be hard.

K> I know plenty of huys who don't find women with blonde hair
K> attractive, for instance. I'd say that orks would tend to base their ideas
K> of attractiveness on being an ork, et cetera. Some people might idealize
K> elfs as beautiful, but I think people on this list (no, not just you,
K> Charon) are overstating the case.
^^^^^^^^
I'm not writing this IC, so you can choose between Tobias and Zixx :)

K> Sure there are differences between elfs
K> and trolls, but... to say that the motivations between playing one and
K> playing the other are so different is silly, in my not-so-humble opinion.
K> Stop whining about elfs. They have weird eyes and they're too damn skinny.

<g>



Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK------------
GAT/CS/S/IT d--- s+:- !a>? C++(++++)
UL++(++++) P+ L++ E W+ N+(+++) o? K?(-)
w---() O- M-- V- PS+ PE- Y+>++ PGP-
t+(++) 5+ X++ R* tv b++ DI(+) D++ G>++
e>+++++(*) h! r-- z?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK-------------
Message no. 34
From: Timothy Little <t_little@**********.UTAS.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Elves
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 12:05:40 +1100
At 01:24 PM 10/8/97 GMT, Tobias wrote:

>on 05.10.97 KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU wrote:
>
>K> We keep talking about elfs as 'pretty', when to some they
>K> wouldn't be.
>
>To most they are. Example: Try to find a male who tells you...say...Milla
>Jovovich is ugly. Should be hard.

"Milla Jovovich is ugly". Easy, see? :-)

(Milla who...? :-)

--
Little One
Message no. 35
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: Elves
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 12:39:00 GMT
on 10.10.97 t_little@**********.UTAS.EDU.AU wrote:

tl> >K> We keep talking about elfs as 'pretty', when to some they
tl> >K> wouldn't be.
tl> >
tl> >To most they are. Example: Try to find a male who tells you...say...Milla
tl> >Jovovich is ugly. Should be hard.
tl>
tl> "Milla Jovovich is ugly". Easy, see? :-)

I knew that would happen. :)

tl>
tl> (Milla who...? :-)

Seen 'The Fifth Element'? No? Do it. Great movie, really.



Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK------------
GAT/CS/S/IT d--- s+:- !a>? C++(++++)
UL++(++++) P+ L++ E W+ N+(+++) o? K?(-)
w---() O- M-- V- PS+ PE- Y+>++ PGP-
t+(++) 5+ X++ R* tv b++ DI(+) D++ G>++
e>+++++(*) h! r-- z?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK-------------
Message no. 36
From: Timothy Little <t_little@**********.UTAS.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Elves
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:30:25 +1100
At 12:39 PM 10/10/97 GMT, Tobias wrote:

>on 10.10.97 t_little@**********.UTAS.EDU.AU wrote:
>
>tl> "Milla Jovovich is ugly". Easy, see? :-)
>
>I knew that would happen. :)

Of course, now that I know who you're talking about, ...

I retract that statement :-)

(She doesn't have my idea of a perfect figure, but she's not ugly)

--
Little One
Message no. 37
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: Elves
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 19:06:00 GMT
on 13.10.97 t_little@**********.UTAS.EDU.AU wrote:

tl> >tl> "Milla Jovovich is ugly". Easy, see? :-)
tl> >
tl> >I knew that would happen. :)
tl>
tl> Of course, now that I know who you're talking about, ...
tl>
tl> I retract that statement :-)

And I knew that would happen (Call me Nostradamus, brother!)

tl>
tl> (She doesn't have my idea of a perfect figure, but she's not ugly)

I always have to remember that scene in "The Fifth Element", when the
rebuild her. The whole male part of the spectators nearly fell off their
seats. (Oh, well, *I* like the figure)



Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK------------
GAT/CS/S/IT d--- s+:- !a>? C++(++++)
UL++(++++) P+ L++ E W+ N+(+++) o? K?(-)
w---() O- M-- V- PS+ PE- Y+>++ PGP-
t+(++) 5+ X++ R* tv b++ DI(+) D++ G>++
e>+++++(*) h! r-- z?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK-------------

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Elves, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!