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Message no. 1
From: Mark Steedman <RSMS@******.EEE.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: elves vs dragons [power]
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 16:30:33 GMT
> > Nevertheless I dont think that even Harlequin is more powerfull than the
> >more powerfull dragons. Dont forget that some dragons probably come from
> >the second age and are maybe even older than that.
>
Ref: 'Wrym Talk' Short story

Harlequin to Frosty : 'It'll be such a shame when we have to kill him'
[or words to the same effect it might be slightly wrong]
this is at the end with reference to Dunklezahn. Considering that
'The Big 'D' ' notes that he will have to be careful lest certain
associates mount him over the fireplace in 'Tir Taingire 'open Forum'
' i think this can be taken as 'The most official' comment on
Harlequins power compared to a great dragon. [note the words
'most', and 'think' before reaching for flamethrowers].

Mark
Message no. 2
From: "J.D. Falk" <jdfalk@************.ORG>
Subject: Re: elves vs dragons [power]
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 15:52:15 -0400
On Wed, 25 Oct 1995, Mark Steedman wrote:

> > > Nevertheless I dont think that even Harlequin is more powerfull than the
> > >more powerfull dragons. Dont forget that some dragons probably come from
> > >the second age and are maybe even older than that.
> >
> Ref: 'Wrym Talk' Short story
>
> Harlequin to Frosty : 'It'll be such a shame when we have to kill him'
> [or words to the same effect it might be slightly wrong]
> this is at the end with reference to Dunklezahn. Considering that
> 'The Big 'D' ' notes that he will have to be careful lest certain
> associates mount him over the fireplace in 'Tir Taingire 'open Forum'
> ' i think this can be taken as 'The most official' comment on
> Harlequins power compared to a great dragon. [note the words
> 'most', and 'think' before reaching for flamethrowers].

Remember, of course, that Harlequin and his ilk are more powerful
than pretty much anything on the planet.
Ain't no way your average runner could beat up on The Big 'D', no
matter how much karma they felt like wasting.

---------========== J.D. Falk <jdfalk@************.org> =========---------
| "You better watch where you're goin', remember where you been, |
| That's the way I see it -- I'm a simple man." |
| -- The Charlie Daniels Band |
----========== http://www.cybernothing.org/jdfalk/home.html ==========----
Message no. 3
From: Cugel <cugel@**.NET>
Subject: Re: elves vs dragons [power]
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 22:44:26 +01.0
On 25 Oct 95 at 16:30, Mark Steedman wrote:

> Harlequin to Frosty : 'It'll be such a shame when we have to kill
> him' [or words to the same effect it might be slightly wrong]

Note the word "we". The problem those dragons have is that they are a
minority and do not cooperate that well. Now picture a group of four
super-elves ganging up on poor old D. I think you get the picture.
Personally I think the dragons should be the most powerfull creatures
in the world. First compare the normal stats of a dragon and an elf.
Now extrapolate this on a Greater Dragon who lived since the second
world and an immortal elf who lived since the fourth. The Dragon has
a better start to begin with and a "couple" of years more experience
(banning the hibernating option for the third and fifth world).

BTW Anyone want to make a guess /why/ they have to kill him? I don't
get it, just because he's there? Just like the "normal" human
reaaction to everything that is above them on the food chain?

The elves didn't try to exterminate all the dragons in ED, the
Therans tried but quickly saw the error of their ways and it was not
because they were dragons. This is also an indicator of the real power
of dragons; a couple of them can keep the most powerfull nation at bay...

Martin Steffens (Cugel@**.net)
When you can flatten entire cities at a whim, a tendency towards quiet
reflection and seeing-things-from-the-other-fellow's-point-of-view is
seldom necessary. -- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)
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Message no. 4
From: Mark Steedman <RSMS@******.EEE.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: elves vs dragons [power]
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 08:49:16 GMT
"J.D. Falk" writes
>
> Remember, of course, that Harlequin and his ilk are more powerful
> than pretty much anything on the planet.
> Ain't no way your average runner could beat up on The Big 'D', no
> matter how much karma they felt like wasting.
>
>
quite true. FASA at least saw some sense in HB when they list the
'give it stats and someone will kill it axiom' to replace 'H's'
stats. I have so far refused to write down my own attributes for a
great Dragon as there is not much point designing a critter thats
target 24+, or immune to all magic and immune to all physical attacks
in the game except so much plastique i have nevr seen enough on all
the PC's i have ever seen to hurt it.

And yes folks you can protect them against Rotary autocannons loading
APDS, locked rating 20 barrier spells on top of Hardened armour soon
add up. [see prime runners, though FASA'a example is killable, just]

Mark
Message no. 5
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: elves vs dragons [power]
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 12:43:23 +0100
Cugel said on 25 Oct 95...

> BTW Anyone want to make a guess /why/ they have to kill him? I don't
> get it, just because he's there? Just like the "normal" human
> reaaction to everything that is above them on the food chain?

Because he wants to tell the humans everything he knows about what is to
come. Harlequin wants to do the same, but not as soon as Dunkelzahn; H
wants people to find out over time, let them discover small bits and think
about the rest themselves, then help them along a bit again when they get
stuck, while the Big D simply wants to say "In a few thousand years, this
and that wil happen, here's what you can do against it."

> The elves didn't try to exterminate all the dragons in ED, the
> Therans tried but quickly saw the error of their ways and it was not
> because they were dragons. This is also an indicator of the real power
> of dragons; a couple of them can keep the most powerfull nation at bay...

Could.

I seriously doubt a dragon could stand up to a well-organized,
well-equipped military operation aimed at killing him/her/it.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"You need us to get a life."
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

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Message no. 6
From: Mark Steedman <RSMS@******.EEE.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: elves vs dragons [power]
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 13:27:47 GMT
Gurth writes
> Cugel said
>
> > The elves didn't try to exterminate all the dragons in ED, the
> > Therans tried but quickly saw the error of their ways and it was not
> > because they were dragons.
It had rather a lot to do with the fact that the Therans got a bit
annoyed when certain dragons started undercutting their price for
wardings good enough to keep folks safely hidden during the scourge,
the Therans wanted everyone to buy the stuff from the 'Tomes of
Harrow' they had, and pay in slaves. Equivalent to 2050's SR corp
politics in some ways.

> > This is also an indicator of the real power
> > of dragons; a couple of them can keep the most powerfull nation at bay...
>
> Could.
>
> I seriously doubt a dragon could stand up to a well-organized,
> well-equipped military operation aimed at killing him/her/it.
>
Agreed in a stand up fight. Dragons are immune to small arms, and
magic can boost them proof anything SR systems can fire but full on
milspec antitank stuff is another matter. However if the Dragon got
the chance to run it could probably hide.

This comes down to the same arguement with the horrors. If they
popped up and fought a 'Military' battle with planet earth, we would
win hands down BOOM, ah well theres more nukes where that one came
from, the communications gear e.t.c. is often sitting safely in orbit
where magic cannot reach (well at least from published source
material) real pity the powerful stuffs not that stupid, and would
win hands down. [modern systems don't work well if the first couple
of well hidden Horros are in the basements of the Whitehouse and UN -
oops. i wonder whose side they are on now]


Mark
Message no. 7
From: Duke Diener <DukeDragon@***.COM>
Subject: Re: elves vs dragons [power]
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 11:15:48 -0400
Gurth in a message dated 95-10-26 07:58:32 EDT, you write:

>I seriously doubt a dragon could stand up to a well-organized,
>well-equipped military operation aimed at killing him/her/it.

I don't feel the dragons are quite so solitary as everyone else here
believes. Dragons are definately not stupid. While I agree that they
probably would not get together before an attack, as soon as the dragon
community saw one of their own killed I feel certain that they would come
together and with a concerted effort destroy what ever was a threat to them,
at least the dragons in my world would.

IMHO creatures do not survive millenia by going head to head against powerful
foes. I see H using a more devious method to get rid of D. Perhaps he could
get the dragon community to turn on D. H might try to turn world opinion
against the dragon(s). I have to think that if H led the elven nation
against one of the dragons, then he could do it against any of them, and the
rest of the dragons would decend on the elves and make the Tunguska blast
look like a fire cracker. If you take and enemy down by force all of your
enemies allies will rally for revenge. But if take your enemy down by guile
then all of his allies will think him a fool and only guard a bit more
against you.

Duke
Message no. 8
From: Charles McKenzie <kilroy@**.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: elves vs dragons [power]
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 21:29:34 -0500
On Thu, 26 Oct 1995, Gurth wrote:
>
> I seriously doubt a dragon could stand up to a well-organized,
> well-equipped military operation aimed at killing him/her/it.
>
Well, depends on whether or not it knows that neat little 'teleport'
spell from Harlequin 1.

Chuck
Message no. 9
From: Mark Steedman <RSMS@******.EEE.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: elves vs dragons [power]
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 08:48:20 GMT
Charles McKenzie writes
> >
[on dragons knowing]

> Well, depends on whether or not it knows that neat little 'teleport'
> spell from Harlequin 1.
>
Well there are 4 teleport spells, like that, see ED, 1 per magician
type. Yes dragons can get good enough to cast them. The other one
that works well involvesa force 12 (or more this is a dragon) spirit
the wyrm summoned and movement power, *12 speed anyone? This also
explains how a dragon could have caught euro flight 321 (or whatever)
as a dragons base flying speed is far too low.

Mark
Message no. 10
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: elves vs dragons [power]
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 11:34:41 +0100
Mark Steedman said on 27 Oct 95...

> This also
> explains how a dragon could have caught euro flight 321 (or whatever)
> as a dragons base flying speed is far too low.

What would you think of intercepting the flight instead of chasing it? If
you know where it'll be at what time, you can wait for it there...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Those dreaded Wednesdays and Saturdays, also known as shower days
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

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Message no. 11
From: Mark Steedman <RSMS@******.EEE.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: elves vs dragons [power]
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 13:28:37 GMT
Gurth writes

> Mark Steedman said on 27 Oct 95...
>
> > This also
> > explains how a dragon could have caught euro flight 321 (or whatever)
> > as a dragons base flying speed is far too low.
>
> What would you think of intercepting the flight instead of chasing it? If
> you know where it'll be at what time, you can wait for it there...
>
For one complex action, objects going >750m a combat round don't stay
about very long, also in this case the fiction said a passenger used
magic to hold it off for minutes, thats 10's miles moved, so not in
this case.

Mark
Message no. 12
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: elves vs dragons [power]
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 07:51:02 -0600
Mark Steedman writes:
|
| Gurth writes
|
| > Mark Steedman said on 27 Oct 95...
| >
| > > This also
| > > explains how a dragon could have caught euro flight 321 (or whatever)
| > > as a dragons base flying speed is far too low.
| >
| > What would you think of intercepting the flight instead of chasing it? If
| > you know where it'll be at what time, you can wait for it there...
| >

In Paranormal Animals of Europe, in the powers section, is the explanation
for dragons being able to fly so damn fast. I can't remember off hand how
it works (and since I'm at work I can't look it up, sorry :)

David

(Mark, your getting this twice because the first time I accidently replied
to you.)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Buehrer
Data Entry Supervisor
The UnCover Company email: dbuehrer@****.org
3801 E. Florida, Suite 200 Voice: (303) 758-3030 x132
Denver, CO 80210 FAX: (303) 758-5946

"The land that had nourished him and had borne him fruit now turned against
him and called him a fruit. Man, I hate land like that."
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Message no. 13
From: Eve Forward <lutra@******.COM>
Subject: Re: elves vs dragons [power]
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 06:57:07 -0700
Re: dragon catching euro-flight 321

Or he could have just put up a big massive Barrier in its flight path.

"The captain has turned off the no-smoking sign, and w- SPLAAT!"

-E

:)
Message no. 14
From: "Andrew W. Ragland" <RAGLAN45@*****.MMC.EDU>
Subject: Re: elves vs dragons [power]
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 09:31:46 -0500
>Or he could have just put up a big massive Barrier in its flight path
> "The captain has turned off the no-smoking sign, and w- SPLAAT!"

Reminescent of the Far Side animated special, with the airplane full of
insects crashing into a windsheild. I hesitate to think about the Rating of
the Barrier spell, though. Consider this: Force is going to be more or less
determined by kinetic energy. This in turn is a function of velocity and
mass. A 747 doing about 600mph is going to punch through a single-digit
barrier like it wasn't even there.

Eek. And you want to talk about the power level of Dragons...

Andrew W. Ragland |GTW @*+(-) s++/+ a c++(++++)| _ Prayer Division|
Product Support Manager |G+ y* L e* W !N o+ K w++$ M+| /\ /\ Ariadne, |
R & M BioMetrics / BioQuant|O+$ V+ +PS- +PE- Y+ PGP @*+ | |-*-| Strengthen |
raglan45@*****.mmc.edu |5@ X+ R+++>$ h---- b+++ r+++| \/_\/ The Web! |
The Internet is a Process, not a Thing
Message no. 15
From: Mark Steedman <RSMS@******.EEE.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: elves vs dragons [power]
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 15:50:43 GMT
"Andrew W. Ragland" writes

> >Or he could have just put up a big massive Barrier in its flight path
> > "The captain has turned off the no-smoking sign, and w-
SPLAAT!"
>
But that does not fit the description in the FASA literature which
suggests this 'particular' euroflight incident lasted about 2 minutes
or os.

> Consider this: Force is going to be more or less
> determined by kinetic energy. This in turn is a function of velocity and
> mass. A 747 doing about 600mph is going to punch through a single-digit
> barrier like it wasn't even there.
>
Just slightly, lets see 600mph, thats 960Kph, 16Kpmin, at 20rounds
per minute thats some 800meters per combat round. Poor barrier....

> Eek. And you want to talk about the power level of Dragons...
>
Well the one listed in Prime runners (great) has every spell in the
book at force 15 to 20.
The highest force spell i have seen an NPC with is Force 40!! (yes
forty, in an official product). Under the right conditions said dude
can roll about 70 odd dice in it, though if anyone ever actually get
to use the stats for more than 'oh frag!!!' somethings going very
wrong.

Mark
Message no. 16
From: Charles McKenzie <kilroy@**.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: elves vs dragons [power]
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 15:37:56 -0500
On Fri, 27 Oct 1995, Gurth wrote:

> What would you think of intercepting the flight instead of chasing it? If
> you know where it'll be at what time, you can wait for it there...

Didn't a passenger hold the dragon of for several minutes though?
That would mean that either the dragon kept up or the plane slowed down...

Chuck
Message no. 17
From: Cugel <cugel@**.NET>
Subject: Re: elves vs dragons [power]
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 1995 01:19:38 +01.0
On 26 Oct 95 at 12:43, Gurth wrote:

> > BTW Anyone want to make a guess /why/ they have to kill him?

> Because he wants to tell the humans everything he knows about what
> is to come. Harlequin wants to do the same, but not as soon as
> Dunkelzahn; H wants people to find out over time, let them discover
> small bits and think about the rest themselves, then help them along
> a bit again when they get stuck, while the Big D simply wants to say
> "In a few thousand years, this and that wil happen, here's what you
> can do against it."

Yep, and that's a good reason to kill him? I can't see a logic behind
that, unless H and the spooky elves want to keep the secret of the
horrors till the scourge actually start and they can sell the secret
of protection to the humans... for a price...
I seriously doubt D doesn't see the danger his outspokeness poses to
himself and he wil either be prepared for retaliation from the elves
or will be more tight-lipped in the future.

> > This is also an indicator of the
> > real power of dragons; a couple of them can keep the most
> > powerfull nation at bay...
>
> Could.

Can. Pool the resources of a couple of great dragons and you /have/
the power of a very powerfull nation. Lofwyr actually owns one of
the big mega corps and god knows what stuff the others have.

> I seriously doubt a dragon could stand up to a well-organized,
> well-equipped military operation aimed at killing him/her/it.

Not alone, but they no longer work alone. Each great dragon probably
has a contingent of aides, personel and militairy assets. These
creatures are not stupid, they know their weaknesses. I mean D was
already a legend when H was still in his diapers.

Anyone else out there who gets a bit riled when you notice your
players rather go up against one of the big-wig dragons than Ehran or
Harlequin, all because "hey, at least the dragon /has/ stats"? :/
(Grumble,grumble,grumble).

Support the dragons! Take away their stats! Join alt.fan.dragon! :)

Martin Steffens (Cugel@**.net)
When you can flatten entire cities at a whim, a tendency towards quiet
reflection and seeing-things-from-the-other-fellow's-point-of-view is
seldom necessary. -- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)
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Message no. 18
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@****.INFORMATIK.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: elves vs dragons [power]
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 1995 15:28:04 +0100
Gurth wrote:
> Mark Steedman said on 27 Oct 95...
> > This also
> > explains how a dragon could have caught euro flight 321 (or whatever)
> > as a dragons base flying speed is far too low.
> What would you think of intercepting the flight instead of chasing it? If
> you know where it'll be at what time, you can wait for it there...
>
SRII, p. 29: "A garbled last transmission from the doomed craft seems to
indicate that one heroic passengerheld the beast off for several minutes
with sorcery [...]".

Sascha
--
+---___---------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | The one does not |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de |learn from history|
| \___ __/ | or | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| Westerstr. 20 / 26121 Oldenburg | through it again.|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| *Wearing hats is just a way of live* | |
+---------------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some |
| die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to |
| deal out death in judgement. -- Gandalf |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 19
From: Alex van der Kleut <sommers@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: elves vs dragons [power]
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 1995 16:47:03 -0400
> On 26 Oct 95 at 12:43, Gurth wrote:
>
> > > BTW Anyone want to make a guess /why/ they have to kill him?
>
Because in the Earthdawn 4th world, the dragons and immortal elves had a
big falling out. I don't know if they have described it yet in the
Earthdawn world, but it has been refered to in some Shadowrun stuff,
especially Worlds without End. SOmething about a great dragon/elf war...
Makes sense, two groups of fairly powerful individuals in one place, and
they both want all of the power. Superpowers with races instead of countries.

>
> > I seriously doubt a dragon could stand up to a well-organized,
> > well-equipped military operation aimed at killing him/her/it.
>
> Not alone, but they no longer work alone. Each great dragon probably
> has a contingent of aides, personel and militairy assets. These
> creatures are not stupid, they know their weaknesses. I mean D was
> already a legend when H was still in his diapers.
>
I think it was in the novel Shadowplay that a well armed military
commando unit took out the brother of Lowfyr. (Granted it took four
vehicle grade combat lasers fired from high altitude stealth bombers to
do it, but..) This shows that
a) Dragons, even great dragons, can be killed if planning goes into it,
or you just get lucky.
b) Just because it's a great dragon doesn't mean that the others will
help it. They seem to be just as backstabbing, vindictive and random in
their motives as humanity.
Message no. 20
From: "Andrew W. Ragland" <RAGLAN45@*****.MMC.EDU>
Subject: Re: elves vs dragons [power]
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 1995 16:40:09 -0500
>big falling out. I don't know if they have described it yet in the
>Earthdawn world, but it has been refered to in some Shadowrun stuff,
>especially Worlds without End. SOmething about a great dragon/elf war...

Might have something to do with Alamaise eating the Elven Queen...

Andrew W. Ragland |GTW @*+(-) s++/+ a c++(++++)| _ Prayer Division|
Product Support Manager |G+ y* L e* W !N o+ K w++$ M+| /\ /\ Ariadne, |
R & M BioMetrics / BioQuant|O+$ V+ +PS- +PE- Y+ PGP @*+ | |-*-| Strengthen |
raglan45@*****.mmc.edu |5@ X+ R+++>$ h---- b+++ r+++| \/_\/ The Web! |
The Internet is a Process, not a Thing
Message no. 21
From: John Lambert <vidar@******.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: elves vs dragons [power]
Date: Sun, 29 Oct 1995 21:55:10 +1100
On Sat, 28 Oct 1995, Andrew W. Ragland wrote:

> Might have something to do with Alamaise eating the Elven Queen...

Yeah, but Alamaise did that because of certain crimes commited by
the elven court.

John.

vidar@******.edu.au
Message no. 22
From: Cugel <cugel@**.NET>
Subject: Re: elves vs dragons [power]
Date: Sun, 29 Oct 1995 22:31:08 +01.0
On 28 Oct 95 at 16:47, Alex van der Kleut wrote:

> I think it was in the novel Shadowplay that a well armed military
> commando unit took out the brother of Lowfyr. (Granted it took
> four vehicle grade combat lasers fired from high altitude stealth
> bombers to do it, but..) This shows that
> a) Dragons, even great dragons, can be killed if planning goes into it,
> or you just get lucky.

Okay, but Alamais was sorta caught with his pants down. By the moment
the four lasers were attacking him, his small group of personel had
been killed or incapacitated. He would have escaped or even won had
not the main character interfered, and had his transformation been
completed earlier. Of course great dragons can be killed, just as
well as the immortal elves, but Alamais placed himself in a very
vulnerable position. He must have been very arrogant to behave like
he did, it wasn't really smart. Not what you expect from some-one
that has been around for a couple of thousand years.

> b) Just because it's a great dragon doesn't mean that the others
> will help it. They seem to be just as backstabbing, vindictive and
> random in their motives as humanity.

I didn't say that the others will help it all of the time. Just in
case the elves try to kill one, the others will very likely help it
out (for a price, maybe but help it nevertheless). Alamais most
certainly had it coming for him. He meddled in human afairs and so
got killed by them, perfectly "normal". Things change if a bunch of
elves decide to kill a dragon because he knows to much.

Martin Steffens (Cugel@**.net)
"I know about people who talk about suffering for the common good. It's
never bloody them! When you hear a man shouting "Forward, brave comrades!"
you'll see he's the one behind the bloody big rock and the wearing the only
really arrow-proof helmet!" (Terry Pratchett, Interesting Times)
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Message no. 23
From: Alex van der Kleut <sommers@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: elves vs dragons [power]
Date: Sun, 29 Oct 1995 22:02:03 -0500
> I didn't say that the others will help it all of the time. Just in
> case the elves try to kill one, the others will very likely help it
> out (for a price, maybe but help it nevertheless). Alamais most
> certainly had it coming for him. He meddled in human afairs and so
> got killed by them, perfectly "normal". Things change if a bunch of
> elves decide to kill a dragon because he knows to much.
>
I think that Harlequin's comment wasn't so much aimed at the Big D as to
dragons in general. As in, we're not going to kill him beacuse he knows
too much and might spill the beans, we're going to kill him because every
other dragon has to die. Why? Because we don't want to share the rest of
the planet with dragons.
Message no. 24
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.Uni-Bremen.DE>
Subject: Re: elves vs dragons [power]
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 1995 18:10:23 +0100 (MET)
> The elves didn't try to exterminate all the dragons in ED, the
> Therans tried but quickly saw the error of their ways and it was not
> because they were dragons. This is also an indicator of the real power
> of dragons; a couple of them can keep the most powerfull nation at bay...

This seems to be an ability every generic powerfull creature has in SR :)
Some of them can even steal countries :)

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

I've been asked if vi was an easy editor to learn, whether it was intuitive
or not. My general response to this question is: "Yes, some of us think so.
But most people think that we are crazy."
Message no. 25
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.Uni-Bremen.DE>
Subject: Re: elves vs dragons [power]
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 1995 18:17:16 +0100 (MET)
Gurth wrote:
> I seriously doubt a dragon could stand up to a well-organized,
> well-equipped military operation aimed at killing him/her/it.

You are right, that much was made evident by the operation that resulted
in the death of Allamais brother of Dunkelzahn. Anyway Dragons and immortal
elves would be half as cool if they were that weak :)

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

I've been asked if vi was an easy editor to learn, whether it was intuitive
or not. My general response to this question is: "Yes, some of us think so.
But most people think that we are crazy."
Message no. 26
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.Uni-Bremen.DE>
Subject: Re: elves vs dragons [power]
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 1995 18:04:03 +0100 (MET)
Mark Steedman wrote:
> > > Nevertheless I dont think that even Harlequin is more powerfull than the
> > >more powerfull dragons. Dont forget that some dragons probably come from
> > >the second age and are maybe even older than that.
> >
> Ref: 'Wrym Talk' Short story
>
> Harlequin to Frosty : 'It'll be such a shame when we have to kill him'
> [or words to the same effect it might be slightly wrong]
> this is at the end with reference to Dunklezahn. Considering that
> 'The Big 'D' ' notes that he will have to be careful lest certain
> associates mount him over the fireplace in 'Tir Taingire 'open Forum'
> ' i think this can be taken as 'The most official' comment on
> Harlequins power compared to a great dragon. [note the words
> 'most', and 'think' before reaching for flamethrowers].

You are right, nevertheless Dunkelzahn seems (IMHO) to be one of the least
powerfull of the greater dragons. After all he is the only one who cooperates
with the elves. *shrug* You could be right though, no flamethrower here :)

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

I've been asked if vi was an easy editor to learn, whether it was intuitive
or not. My general response to this question is: "Yes, some of us think so.
But most people think that we are crazy."
Message no. 27
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.ntu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: elves vs dragons [power]
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 1995 10:51:54 +0930 (CST)
Jani Fikouras wrote:
>
> Gurth wrote:
> > I seriously doubt a dragon could stand up to a well-organized,
> > well-equipped military operation aimed at killing him/her/it.
>
> You are right, that much was made evident by the operation that resulted
> in the death of Allamais brother of Dunkelzahn. Anyway Dragons and immortal
> elves would be half as cool if they were that weak :)

He wasn't Dunkelzahn's brother... Wasn't he Lofywyr's? Anyway, what made
you think he died? In the book "Night's Pawn", his barrier was holding up
nicely against the battlefield laser, and the story ends when the dragon
leaves the building, and thus no longer protects the guy who then dies. No
idea of the final outcome, but my money's on the dragon.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***

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