Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Gallas William <gallas@**.ec-lyon.fr>
Subject: Enchanting
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 95 12:30:19 MET
Do you think the first bonding is sufficient to use a focus you made or do you
have to bond it after the first bonding (rules aren't very, but I think the
first is the good one)?
If the first is the right one, you can "easily" create a Power Focus 7 costing
you only 7 karma points ...


- Cobra.

_______
/ \
| _ )
\_/ \ /
/ ) /
/| / /
/ /
/ /
/ /
/ /
/ /
/ / __
/ /______/ )
(___________/\|
Message no. 2
From: "Damion Milliken" <adm82@***.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Enchanting
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 1995 00:34:46 +1100 (EST)
Gallas William writes:

> Do you think the first bonding is sufficient to use a focus you made or do
> you have to bond it after the first bonding (rules aren't very, but I think
> the first is the good one)?

Well, on page 26, under the heading "First Bonding", the rules say:

"The Karma paid to complete the enchantment also bonds the focus..."

Seems fairly clear to me that the first bonding actually bonds the focus.

> If the first is the right one, you can "easily" create a Power Focus 7
> costing you only 7 karma points ...

Actually, Looking at the rules on page 26 of the Grimoire II, it seems to me
that it would be very easy for a magician to construct high powered foci,
and bond them for a pittance of karma. A Power Focus of any rating could be
bonded with 1 karma if it were constructed using virgin telesma, three
arcana and one unit of orichalcum. Comparing the costs of buying and bonding
a level 6 Power Focus with making one yourself, we see it is far, far cheaper
to construct the thing yourself, both nuyen and karma wise. While an off the
shelf level 6 Power Focus will set you back 630,000 Nuyen and 30 karma, to
create one yourself will only be 100,000 for the Enchanting shop, 88,000 for
the orichalcum, a pittance for the radicals, and it will set you back a
whopping 1 karma to bond. It will take 2-3 months to design and create the
thing, but after the initial design the magician will be able to churn out
the foci for very little nuyen and very little time. The only balancing
effect is that the target number to create the thing is 8, with a -1 per
extra unit of orichalcum that is added. But an 8 is hardly _that_ difficult
to create.

For the price of a +1 target number, the Rating of the focus can be
increased by 1, with the karma cost still remaining at 1. All you have to
do is balance the highest target number you can possibly hope to roll, and
you can simply create a focus of that Rating. If you have 10 karma to burn
on re-rolls, you could quite conceivably create a Rating 15 Power Focus, and
bond it for 1 karma...

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GE d- s++:-- a19 C++ US++>+++ P+ L E W(+) N o(@) K? w(+) O(@) M- V? PS+ PE(@)
Y+ PGP@>+ t+ 5 X+(++) R+(++) tv--- b++(+++) DI? D+@ G++(+) e h(*) !r y--
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 3
From: "Mark Steedman" <rsms@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Enchanting
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 13:35:15 GMT
Gallas William

> Do you think the first bonding is sufficient to use a focus you made or do you
> have to bond it after the first bonding (rules aren't very, but I think the
> first is the good one)?
The first bonding cost is to bond it to the soul it was made for, and
yes thats all thats required to use it.

> If the first is the right one, you can "easily" create a Power Focus 7
costing
> you only 7 karma points ...
>
What are you on!!, 1 Karma point please!. The first bonding is
8*rating and you can get -8 to the multiple, only FASA remembered to
put a minimum 1 cost in so x * 0 -> 1 [game minimum].

The problem of course is all those radicals to make, vergin telesma
etc will take you months, which most PC's don't have, 'just handy',
but otherwise rating 12 power foc for 1 karma are possible, just not
practical in your average campain.
Offseting this actually is that the first 'for 1 karma' focus will
set you back something arround its bonding cost in karma for the
skills you need to make it, if not more, + 100K+ for the enchanting
shop, the place to put it [alchemy style stuff is not compatible with
the living room generally!]

>
> - Cobra.
Mark
Message no. 4
From: Justin Thomas <Justin.C.Thomas-1@**.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Enchanting
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 95 12:06:08 -0600
At 06:16 AM 11/17/95 -0500, you wrote:
>Do you think the first bonding is sufficient to use a focus you made or do you
>have to bond it after the first bonding (rules aren't very, but I think the
>first is the good one)?
>If the first is the right one, you can "easily" create a Power Focus 7
costing
>you only 7 karma points ...
>
>
> - Cobra.
>
> _______
> / \
> | _ )
> \_/ \ /
> / ) /
> /| / /
> / /
> / /
> / /
> / /
> / /
> / / __
> / /______/ )
> (___________/\|
>
>

I think the first bonding in sufficient to bond it to the creator...but I am
not sure if the creator bonds it to someone else... it mentions something
about spending the karma so someone else can use it but I am not sure... the
talismongers must make them and have them first bonded already or maybe they
can just pay the differece between first bonding and normal bonding and sell
it to people so they can spend "normal" bonding costs...
******************************
Justin Thomas
"Farr"
Email:
thom0767@**.umn.edu
or if that doesn't work
justin.thomas@*********.mn.org
Message no. 5
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Enchanting
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 14:06:55 -0500 (EST)
On Fri, 17 Nov 1995, Mark Steedman wrote:

> > If the first is the right one, you can "easily" create a Power Focus 7
costing
> > you only 7 karma points ...
> >
> What are you on!!, 1 Karma point please!. The first bonding is
> 8*rating and you can get -8 to the multiple, only FASA remembered to
> put a minimum 1 cost in so x * 0 -> 1 [game minimum].

Actually, you can only reduce the *multiplier* down to 1 in this
fashion. The absolute, rock-bottom minimum karma cost for first bonding is
equal to the rating of the focus.

Marc
Message no. 6
From: "Damion Milliken" <adm82@***.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Enchanting
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 1995 11:01:43 +1100 (EST)
Justin Thomas writes:

> I dissagree Mark, I have searched through the rule book for any sort of
> answer saying that DM spells cannot be cast through the astral (that why I
> asked) but it does give an example somewhere about a mage casting through a
> body and the fireball erupting on the other side hitting everyone around
> because it was a DM and doesn't need LOS.

Whooaa! Where's this?

Justin Thomas writes:

> I think the first bonding in sufficient to bond it to the creator...but I am
> not sure if the creator bonds it to someone else... it mentions something
> about spending the karma so someone else can use it but I am not sure...

The karma cost for the first bonding can be paid by either the enchanting
magician or the final recipient. They can split the amount between them too.

Marc A Renouf writes:

> Actually, you can only reduce the *multiplier* down to 1 in this
> fashion. The absolute, rock-bottom minimum karma cost for first bonding
> is equal to the rating of the focus.

Um, you sure? Try this for example:

A Power Focus has a first bonding cost of Rating x 7

Now, lets say we construct it from virgin telesma, which gives us a -2 x
Rating to the cost, making the cost Rating x 5

If we were to include three arcana, we'd have another -4 x Rating, for a
cost of Rating x 1

If we then added in one unit of orichalcum, which gives us -1 x Rating, we'd
then have a final cost of Rting x 0

But, because of the rule on page 26 of the Grimything stating:

"The minimum base cost for the first bonding is 1."

We must still pay 1 karma.

Note that it says "minimum base cost", not "minimum base multiplier",
so the
cost must be at least 1, not the multiplier.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GE d- s++:-- a19 C++ US++>+++ P+ L E W(+) N o(@) K? w(+) O(@) M- V? PS+ PE(@)
Y+ PGP@>+ t+ 5 X+(++) R+(++) tv--- b++(+++) DI? D+@ G++(+) e h(*) !r y--
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 7
From: t_little@**********.utas.edu.au (Timothy Little)
Subject: Re: Enchanting
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 1995 17:20:48 +1100
>Do you think the first bonding is sufficient to use a focus you made or do you
>have to bond it after the first bonding (rules aren't very, but I think the
>first is the good one)?
>If the first is the right one, you can "easily" create a Power Focus 7
costing
>you only 7 karma points ...

The rules seem quite clear to me, at least (under First Bonding):
"The Karma paid to complete the enchantment also bonds the focus,
either to ..."
^------------------^

Sure, a Power(7) focus only costs 7 Karma. Let's look at the other costs.
For demonstration purposes, let's consider an enchanter with Magic rating 6,
Magical Theory 5 and Enchanting 5.
(Plus the enchanting shop in a secure location, or course)
He wants to make a Power Focus (7) for 7 Karma.

First comes the design : Base time 60 days, TN# 7. This will probably take
about 2 to 4 months. (Say 70 days on average).

There will almost certainly be a special material required - but that
doesn't factor in much unless you get something really nasty.

There are two main routes to choose from next. You could choose to get the
discount from Virgin Telesma, or go the Orichalcum route.

Virgin Telesma - You get -2xRating for this, so you also need to incorporate
3 Arcana in your focus. These Arcana need to be gathered, refined, and
circulated yourself.
Gathering : first you need a site from which to gather appropriate
materials. Expect bureaucratic hassles and a fair bit of convincing to gain
access to some of the few remaining unspoiled areas. (If you're after
metals or crystals, you could spend quite a while just trying to find such a
site). Assuming you get through this with minimum hassle, you'll need 1
unit of raw material for the basis, and 2 of each of the 3 arcana. For 7
materials, that's a base time of 70 days - say you can get assistance from a
spirit of force 5, for an average 5 successes per attempt. That means you
spend about 14 days gathering materials.

Refining the materials take a base time of 10 days per group, with an
average of 4 days actual time for each group. Say 15 days.

Circulating the radicals takes a fixed time of 28 days per arcanum. This
time must be uninterrupted, or the materials are wasted. (A perfect GM
intervention point). Add 84 days.

Making the material basis is up to the GM. It could take anything from a
base time of 10 days for something fairly simple to decades for a truly
intricate design.

Enchanting the focus takes a base of 30 days, with TN# 9. Using 5 dice,
this takes about 60 days on average. This time must also be uninterrupted
or the material is wasted.

So, the total amount of time taken is around 9 months, most of which would
abort the whole process if it was interrupted.

On the other hand, for about the same amount of Karma as putting up a skill
by 2 points, you could spend far less time and risk to bond the power focus.

--
Tim Little
Message no. 8
From: seb@***.ripco.com (Sebastian Wiers)
Subject: Re: Enchanting
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 1995 01:05:01 -0600 (CST)
>
> Sure, a Power(7) focus only costs 7 Karma. Let's look at the other costs.
> For demonstration purposes, let's consider an enchanter with Magic rating 6,
> Magical Theory 5 and Enchanting 5.
> (Plus the enchanting shop in a secure location, or course)
> He wants to make a Power Focus (7) for 7 Karma.
>
Plus, I may be wrong, but you might not be ab;e to design foci with rating
higher than your magic theory/ magic rating (or is that computer stuff and
computer theory/ intellegence?) ^_^
> First comes the design : Base time 60 days, TN# 7. This will probably take
> about 2 to 4 months. (Say 70 days on average).
>
pay somebody else to do it. you don't need the skill, the designer need not
be a mage. Saves time and the cost should be reasonable, say 10K per month.

> There will almost certainly be a special material required - but that
> doesn't factor in much unless you get something really nasty.
> There are two main routes to choose from next. You could choose to get the
> discount from Virgin Telesma, or go the Orichalcum route.

Yes, this is where things get sticky- our party's mage bought the design for
some magic spur implants, and now is looking for oricalcum (required for
weapon foci). One sorce he tracked down was.... well...

Mage; Hey Mongoose, wanna go talk to a Dragon? I heard you wanted a
hellhound anyhow.
>
> Virgin Telesma - You get -2xRating for this, so you also need to incorporate
> 3 Arcana in your focus. These Arcana need to be gathered, refined, and
> circulated yourself.

Almost easier to not go virgin and buy lots of refined/radical materials.

>
> On the other hand, for about the same amount of Karma as putting up a skill
> by 2 points, you could spend far less time and risk to bond the power focus.
>
Crazy drekking mages. Think I'll go shopping for military armor..

Mongoose ;"my ass is in an astral sling and the stupid mage is spending
nine months doing WHAT!?!"
Message no. 9
From: t_little@**********.utas.edu.au (Timothy Little)
Subject: Re: Enchanting
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 1995 18:18:30 +1100
>> If the first is the right one, you can "easily" create a Power Focus 7
costing
>> you only 7 karma points ...
>>
>What are you on!!, 1 Karma point please!. The first bonding is
>8*rating and you can get -8 to the multiple, only FASA remembered to
>put a minimum 1 cost in so x * 0 -> 1 [game minimum].

The minimum *base* cost is 1; when you multiply the base cost by the Rating
to get the actual cost, you get 7 Karma points.

>The problem of course is all those radicals to make, vergin telesma
>etc will take you months, which most PC's don't have, 'just handy',
>but otherwise rating 12 power foc for 1 karma are possible, just not
>practical in your average campain.

The most time-efficient way to make a focus is by tossing in heaps of
Orichalcum. Of course, this is a little expensive...

>Offseting this actually is that the first 'for 1 karma' focus will
>set you back something arround its bonding cost in karma for the
>skills you need to make it, if not more, + 100K+ for the enchanting
>shop, the place to put it [alchemy style stuff is not compatible with
>the living room generally!]

If you get Enchanting at character creation, Karma cost for skills doesn't
factor into the equation at all.


The best use to make of Enchanting is to start with refined gold (at 20 000
nY / unit), then turn it into alchemical radicals. Say you have Enchanting
(Metal Arcana) at 8. If you process 3 units of refined gold in a
circulation, you should expect to end up with about 18 units of radical
gold, worth 40 kY per unit. Selling it even with the ridiculous 30% rule
makes many hundreds of thousands of yen in a month. If the GM allows Karma
Pool to be used in such situations, you could add in a couple of extra pool
dice, process 4 units instead, and reroll twice to end up with around 40
units (worth 1.6 million nuyen).

And you thought Novastar Rockers could make it big...

--
Tim Little
Message no. 10
From: seb@***.ripco.com (Sebastian Wiers)
Subject: Re: Enchanting
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 1995 01:33:08 -0600 (CST)
> If you process 3 units of refined gold in a
> circulation, you should expect to end up with about 18 units of radical
> gold, worth 40 kY per unit. Selling it even with the ridiculous 30% rule
> makes many hundreds of thousands of yen in a month. If the GM allows Karma
> Pool to be used in such situations, you could add in a couple of extra pool
> dice, process 4 units instead, and reroll twice to end up with around 40
> units (worth 1.6 million nuyen).
>
> And you thought Novastar Rockers could make it big...
>
> --
> Tim Little
>
>
And you thought corporate extractions were just for chip heads- goodbye PC,
hello wage mage.
Message no. 11
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Enchanting
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 1995 03:56:34 -0500 (EST)
On Fri, 17 Nov 1995, Damion Milliken wrote:

> Marc A Renouf writes:
>
> > Actually, you can only reduce the *multiplier* down to 1 in this
> > fashion. The absolute, rock-bottom minimum karma cost for first bonding
> > is equal to the rating of the focus.

> Um, you sure? Try this for example:
> A Power Focus has a first bonding cost of Rating x 7
> Now, lets say we construct it from virgin telesma, which gives us a -2 x
> Rating to the cost, making the cost Rating x 5
> If we were to include three arcana, we'd have another -4 x Rating, for a
> cost of Rating x 1
> If we then added in one unit of orichalcum, which gives us -1 x Rating, we'd
> then have a final cost of Rting x 0
> But, because of the rule on page 26 of the Grimything stating:
> "The minimum base cost for the first bonding is 1."
> We must still pay 1 karma.
> Note that it says "minimum base cost", not "minimum base
multiplier", so the
> cost must be at least 1, not the multiplier.

Same page, the very last paragraph in the first column.

"Karma costs for the first bonding are equal to a base amount
multiplied by the rating of the item."

Now add that to the passage you quoted in the next paragraph...

"The minimum base cost for the first bonding is 1."

and it becomes fairly clear that the term "base cost" is actually
the multiplier, and hence, the minimum bonding cost for a focus is its
rating.

Marc
Message no. 12
From: "Damion Milliken" <adm82@***.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Enchanting
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 1995 20:56:53 +1100 (EST)
Marc A Renouf writes:

> Same page, the very last paragraph in the first column.
>
> "Karma costs for the first bonding are equal to a base amount
> multiplied by the rating of the item."
>
> Now add that to the passage you quoted in the next paragraph...
>
> "The minimum base cost for the first bonding is 1."
>
> and it becomes fairly clear that the term "base cost" is actually
> the multiplier, and hence, the minimum bonding cost for a focus is its
> rating.

I see what you're getting at, but I look at it a different way. The Bonding
Cost Table on the same page has a column headed "Base Karma Cost", and under
this column is the "No x Rating" bit. I interpret this entire number to be
the "base cost" since it is entitled that. I'd assume the "base
amount"
would be the "No" associated with the particular type of focus, rather than
the "base cost". Why attribute the "minimum base cost for the first
bonding
is 1" to something else called the "base amount" (whatever that actually
refers to) when there is something else called "base cost" already there?

And to whoever did the calculations and found it took nine(!) months to
create a focus, well done! That'll put a a stop to most munchkinous focus
creation expiditions. Although (after a tad of thought) if one were to
purchase the radicals from one's friendly talismonger, much hassle and
around 4-5 months could be shaved off, for a measly few nuyen (or a not so
measly few nuyen if you also purchased the orichalcum to further reduce the
time taken). Not to mention if you purchased the formula rather than
designed it yourself, it would be simple to make a focus a month after that,
and a fairly decent rated one at that. Of course this is all dependant on
having a nice friendly talismonger contact who has access to all this kind of
junk (but then again, if I were the talismonger, and I was going to haul in
300000 nuyen in one shot, by geez I'd be friendly too).

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GE d- s++:-- a19 C++ US++>+++ P+ L E W(+) N o(@) K? w(+) O(@) M- V? PS+ PE(@)
Y+ PGP@>+ t+ 5 X+(++) R+(++) tv--- b++(+++) DI? D+@ G++(+) e h(*) !r y--
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 13
From: sedahdro@*****.com (Victor Rodriguez, Jr)
Subject: Re: Enchanting
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 95 15:37 EST
Why not just by the focus and save the nine months of ones life
--
I know where my towel is, do you?
GC3.1
GO>CS d- s:--- a21 C++++>$ U--- P L-- E? W+>W+++ N o? K? w+>w++++ O--- M-- V
PS+++ PE Y+ PGP- t++ 5+ X++ R++>+++$ tv++ b- DI++ D+ G++ e* h r++ y++
Message no. 14
From: "Damion Milliken" <adm82@***.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Enchanting
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 1995 13:48:24 +1100 (EST)
Victor Rodriguez, Jr writes:

> Why not just by the focus and save the nine months of ones life

I don't think nuyen is the issue. I have a feeling the idea is to save
_karma_ rather than nuyen. Karma tends to be sooo much more valuable to
magicians than nuyen (in fact we call the teams mage the karma black hole).
Bonding foci costs heaps of karma (sure it costs heaps of nuyen to buy them,
but like I said...), so it is quite attractive to make your own and bond
them on the cheap.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GE d- s++:-- a19 C++ US++>+++ P+ L E W(+) N o(@) K? w(+) O(@) M- V? PS+ PE(@)
Y+ PGP@>+ t+ 5 X+(++) R+(++) tv--- b++(+++) DI? D+@ G++(+) e h(*) !r y--
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 15
From: Gallas William <gallas@**.ec-lyon.fr>
Subject: Re: Enchanting
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 95 15:01:10 MET
> Mark:
>
> > Do you think the first bonding is sufficient to use a focus you made or do you
> > have to bond it after the first bonding (rules aren't very, but I think the
> > first is the good one)?
> The first bonding cost is to bond it to the soul it was made for, and
> yes thats all thats required to use it.
>
> > If the first is the right one, you can "easily" create a Power Focus 7
costing
> > you only 7 karma points ...
> >
> What are you on!!, 1 Karma point please!. The first bonding is
> 8*rating and you can get -8 to the multiple, only FASA remembered to
> put a minimum 1 cost in so x * 0 -> 1 [game minimum].
>
> The problem of course is all those radicals to make, vergin telesma
> etc will take you months, which most PC's don't have, 'just handy',
> but otherwise rating 12 power foc for 1 karma are possible, just not
> practical in your average campain.
> Offseting this actually is that the first 'for 1 karma' focus will
> set you back something arround its bonding cost in karma for the
> skills you need to make it, if not more, + 100K+ for the enchanting
> shop, the place to put it [alchemy style stuff is not compatible with
> the living room generally!]

Fasa says the minimum base karma cost is 1. So, you have to multiply by the
rating of the focus.
The enchanting does not take a long time because you can buy your radicals.
Prices are so low you can enchant a Power Focus 7 at a reduced cost and with
a bonding cost of 7 (which is not difficult if the telesma is hand made).


- Cobra.

_______
/ \
| _ )
\_/ \ /
/ ) /
/| / /
/ /
/ /
/ /
/ /
/ /
/ / __
/ /______/ )
(___________/\|
Message no. 16
From: W.Blount@*******.anu.edu.au (Warwick)
Subject: Re: Enchanting
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 1995 22:19:16 +0000
>> I dissagree Mark, I have searched through the rule book for any sort of
>> answer saying that DM spells cannot be cast through the astral (that why I
>> asked) but it does give an example somewhere about a mage casting through a
>> body and the fireball erupting on the other side hitting everyone around
>> because it was a DM and doesn't need LOS.
>

It also talks about Fireballs and other cmbt spells affecting the area
where the physical body was in several SR novels/short stories
Message no. 17
From: U-Gene <R3STG@***.CC.UAKRON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Enchanting
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 95 11:36:14 EST
About eight different people wrote:
> About 7 (or 1) karma to bond a Power Focus 7...

Oh no, Munchkin alert. All players in the vicinity must be terminated.
All copies must of these messages must be deleted and hardcopies shredded.
Time to initiate Top Priority Cleanup Operation begining in 10 seconds.
9...8...7...6...5...4...3...2...1...

U-Gene << ;) >>
Message no. 18
From: U-Gene <R3STG@***.CC.UAKRON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Enchanting
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 95 11:44:29 EST
>Damion Milliken writes:
>>Justin Thomas writes:
>> [snip] gives an example somewhere of a mage casting through a body and
>> the fireball erupting on the other side and hitting everyone around
>> because it was a DM and doesn't need line of sight.
>
>Whooaa! Where's this?

I am not sure, but I think he is thinking of the example where the DM spell
is set on a mage and hits targets that the caster couldn't see. It wasn't
a grounding example, it just showed how DM's could hit things the
mage couldn't see by centering it on a place the Mage _could_ see. And of
course for combat spells, the mage must have LOS to all targets in the AOF.

U-Gene << has nothing to say >>
Message no. 19
From: Justin Thomas <Justin.C.Thomas-1@**.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Enchanting
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 95 12:05:07 -0600
At 06:14 AM 11/20/95 -0500, you wrote:
>
>>> I dissagree Mark, I have searched through the rule book for any sort of
>>> answer saying that DM spells cannot be cast through the astral (that why I
>>> asked) but it does give an example somewhere about a mage casting through a
>>> body and the fireball erupting on the other side hitting everyone around
>>> because it was a DM and doesn't need LOS.
>>
>
>It also talks about Fireballs and other cmbt spells affecting the area
>where the physical body was in several SR novels/short stories
>
>
I am not sure about this... but if a mage is in the astral and cast a area
effect fireball or whatever at another mage in the astral and it grounds out.
If there are people around him (not astrally active) and the casting mage
can see them (astral auras) will the area effect effect them since it has a
bridge and they are in the los?

do you understand what I am asking?
******************************
Justin Thomas
"Farr"
Email:
thom0767@**.umn.edu
or if that doesn't work
justin.thomas@*********.mn.org
Message no. 20
From: sedahdro@*****.com (Victor Rodriguez, Jr)
Subject: Re: Enchanting
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 95 15:40 EST
>I am not sure about this... but if a mage is in the astral and cast a area
>effect fireball or whatever at another mage in the astral and it grounds out.
>If there are people around him (not astrally active) and the casting mage
>can see them (astral auras) will the area effect effect them since it has a
>bridge and they are in the los?
>
>do you understand what I am asking?
If a an astrally projecting mage casts a physical area effect combat spell
at another astrally projecting mage it grounds out wherever the victims body
is at. If there are objects that can be affected the by the spell in the
area effect of the spell they will be affected by the spell. In the case of
grounging the object of the grounding is the only thing that has to be in
los (granted it's los in astral, not los in physical).
---Sedah Drol
--
I know where my towel is, do you?
GC3.1
GO>CS d- s:--- a21 C++++>$ U--- P L-- E? W+>W+++ N o? K? w+>w++++ O--- M-- V
PS+++ PE Y+ PGP- t++ 5+ X++ R++>+++$ tv++ b- DI++ D+ G++ e* h r++ y++
Message no. 21
From: "Damion Milliken" <adm82@***.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Enchanting
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 1995 10:21:24 +1100 (EST)
Victor Rodriguez, Jr writes:

> If a an astrally projecting mage casts a physical area effect combat spell
> at another astrally projecting mage it grounds out wherever the victims body
> is at.

I do believe that in this circumstance you are able to ground Mana spells
also. And that you are able to ground other types of spells besides Combat
spells too. It is only with foci, and other inanimate objects (such as
anchored spells) that there is a restriction that the spell ground be
Physical if it is to affect others within its area of effect (one can still
ground a Mana spell through the focus, but even if it is an area of effect
spell, it only affects the focus and whoever it is bonded to).

> If there are objects that can be affected the by the spell in the area
> effect of the spell they will be affected by the spell. In the case of
> grounding the object of the grounding is the only thing that has to be in
> los (granted it's los in astral, not los in physical).

Well, technically you're right. But if you ground an area of effect Combat
spell through an astrally projecting magician, then unless you are within
LOS of his body, then the only thing you'll affect will be the magician.
You still need to see any other targets in the area of effect to actually
hit them also. This makes the threat of your teams astrally projecting
magician suddenly turning into a fireball somewhat less - as it will only
occur if the grounding magician happens to ground a spell through the teams
magician while he (the grounding magician) is within LOS of the teams
magicians body.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GE d- s++:-- a19 C++ US++>+++ P+ L E W(+) N o(@) K? w(+) O(@) M- V? PS+ PE(@)
Y+ PGP@>+ t+ 5 X+(++) R+(++) tv--- b++(+++) DI? D+@ G++(+) e h(*) !r y--
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 22
From: TopCat <topcat@**.cencom.net>
Subject: Re: Enchanting
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 1995 15:51:10 -0600
Nine months of your life (and every other character in the group) or a
heaping truckload of karma for that shiny new focus? Don't waste your months...

A) As previously mentioned, the rest of the group won't be too pleased when
they find out that their magical support is going on a nine month hiatus so
he can be one with his orichalcum. Of course, some groups are rather
flexible when it comes to such things. This is rarely a roleplaying
convention, but is more often born of "we'll get more dice later!" or "we
wait for him to get done because we want to wait... no, really!"

B) The price difference. All in all it either doesn't exist or it is
cheaper cash-wise to just go out and buy it. You have to get an enchanting
workshop, you need to have 9 months of lifestyle paid for (no, you won't be
able to take a street lifestyle while you make the focus), you need some
bodyguards who'll keep the rest of the world from snatching up your stash of
magical goodies, and you'll need the cash for the goodies in the first
place. Adjust that for street value of course. Oh, and put the selling
party's negotiation score up against the spellcaster's. They know as well
as you do that it's easier on the karma if you build it, so it's gonna cost ya.

C) You can make enough karma in nine months' worth of runs to afford the
focus and a few skill boosts to boot. Need I mention the cash?

D) You don't lose half your contacts due to inactivity by dropping the cash.
A lot can and does happen in nine months, and you'll be out of the field for
that whole time. "Are you telling me that my fixer retired to Florida? My
armorer is in jail? The street doc joined the Universal Brotherhood? Well,
who the hell is still left? Not even my fan?!"

E) The numbers work... I like numbers as much as the next guy, but it gets
kinda tiring after a while.

Ah well, there's some reasons. Take em as you will. I'm sure there's more
out there for my side of it as well as the other side. If you have more,
I'd like to hear em.


-- TopCat
Message no. 23
From: Rick Musci <Chocobo219@***.COM>
Subject: Enchanting
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 20:24:18 EDT
One quick question:
Does enchanting require a library for a magician?


Steel Katana
Message no. 24
From: Rick J Federle <griffinhq@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Enchanting
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 23:42:45 -0400
On Sat, 26 Sep 1998 20:24:18 EDT Rick Musci <Chocobo219@***.COM> writes:
>One quick question:
> Does enchanting require a library for a magician?
>
>
Enchanting requires a library and a shop for a mage, and a medicine
lodge and a shop for a shaman. (shop might be opinional for a shaman,
not sure)
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
Message no. 25
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Enchanting
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 01:52:14 EDT
In a message dated 9/26/1998 7:27:59 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
Chocobo219@***.COM writes:

> One quick question:
> Does enchanting require a library for a magician?
>
>
> Steel Katana
>
I remember reading in a previous (to 3rd edition) book that it a library
actually did have the "option" of an enchanting rating, as well as a Sorcery
and Conjuring rating. The only for certain thing is that Enchanting (most
enchanting anyway), does require an Enchanter's Shop to perform the larger,
more complex things (like Foci), and only a Kit for things like Gathering
tests...

-K
Message no. 26
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Enchanting
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 04:56:32 EDT
In a message dated 9/26/98 7:27:59 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
Chocobo219@***.COM writes:

> Does enchanting require a library for a magician?

Yes ... as it is something entirely different from Sorcery, and Conjuring.

-Herc
------ The Best Mechanic you can ever have.
Message no. 27
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Enchanting
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 12:51:24 -0400
On Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 08:24:18PM -0400, Rick Musci wrote:
> One quick question:
> Does enchanting require a library for a magician?
>
>
> Steel Katana

As someone else has already mentioned, the requirements for
enchanting seem to be:

Talismongering
Includes gathering materials, refining materials,
making fetishes, making ritual materials,
analyzing magical objects.
Requires an Enchanting Kit (10,000 Y) for all of the
above, except analyzing objects or refining ores,
which require an Enchanting Shop (100,000 Y)

Alchemy/Artificing
Includes producing radicals, making orichalcum, and
enchanting foci of all sorts.
Requires an Enchanting Shop (100,000 Y), plus an Enchanting
Library for Hermetics or a medicine lodge for
shaman. Effective Enchanting skill is limited
to the rating of the library or lodge used.

Note that all of these rules are different for Druids, if you
happen to have one in your campaign. For those rules, go get yourself
a copy of the Grimoire :)

And the reason why I'm giving an answer soemone else already basically
gave? To give me an opportunity to mention one of my pet annoyances - the
prices on magical gear.
Let's take a Hermetic's conjuring materials. These cost 1000 Y
per unit, and conjuring requires a number of units equal to the Force
of the elemental. Now, looking at the Grimoire, what would it take to
make those materials yourself?
First, you need an Enchanting Kit. This costs 10,000 Y, and is reusable.
Next, you need an Enchanting skill. Let's give our Hermetic a skill of 3 -
he knows some tricks of the trade, but enchanting is just a sideline for his
real business of conjuring spirits and slinging spells. He also needs the
raw (or rather, refined) materials: 1 unit of refined, oh, let's say crystals.
That costs 200 Y.
Assuming that ritual materials are treated as reusable fetishes for
the purposes of creation (the Grimoire says 'fetishes', but doesn't say which
kind - if they meant expendable, it'd be really obscene), our mage now needs
to make an Enchanting(4) test, base time 24 hours. Let's say he gets 1
success (not unreasonable with a skill of 3). He now has 1 unit of conjuring
material, and it's taken him 24 hours. His profit on the procedure was 800 Y,
with an initial outlay of 10000 - he'll have to do this 13 times to recoup
the cost of the Enchanting Kit, and after that, it's all profit. As his
skill increases, it'll take him less and less time to accomplish the
process.
That's a low-level example. Let's take a high-level one. Our
professional Alchemist (tradition is irrelevant, but alchemy strikes me
as more of a Hermetic than shamanic pursuit) has an Enchanting (Alchemy)
skill of 5(7), and has taken out a loan to get his business started.
He purchases an Enchanting Shop for 100,000 Y, and radicals of gold,
silver, mercury, and copper for 44,000 Y. He could have saved a lot
of money by refining the ore and producing the radicals himself,
but he's on a time limit - he needs to pay off that 160,000 Y loan he
just took out. He spends, oh, 10000 to rent laboratory space in which to
set up his gear, somewhere in an A or B-rated security zone, and the remainder
of the loan pays for 1 month of living expenses and stimulants.
Now, all set up, he settles down to brew some orichalcum. This
takes a firm 28 days - this time limit may not be changed. It's tiring,
and he only gets about 3 hours of sleep at a time, but he pulls through
the entire month. He makes an Enchanting(4) test (10 minus his magic
rating of 6 - we'll be kind and assume he's not an initiate), with his
skill of 7. Let's be conservative and say he gets 3 sucesses.
He now has 3 units of orichalcum. Street price: 264000 Y. He
sells it to a talismonger for, say, 180000 Y, with the remaining 84000 being
the talismonger's markup when he sells it to a customer. Remember that
160000 Y loan? He could pay it off, but that'd leave him without operating
funds. He pays off half of it, takes a month-long vacation, then brews
another batch. He now has 130000 Y (minus what he spent on vacation, and
assuming he spends another 20000 on rent for his shop and 6000 on living
expenses), a complete Enchanting shop, a talismonger who's very happy
with him, and no debt. It has been 3 months. If he continues this pattern,
his income for the whole year will be ~850,000 Y, and he will have been
actually engaged in alchemy only 6 months out of the year. If he takes
less vacation, his profit goes up - maybe the exxtra money gets spent
on a higher lifestyle or extra security. And, of course, sometimes he'll do
better (or worse) than 3 successes...probably more often better than
worse. If he wants to, he could take a month off to enchant a few foci
instead...like, say, an Enchanting focus.
All of which just goes to show that thaumaturgy students who're
interested in making LOTS OF MONEY don't go into sorcery or conjuring -
they go into enchanting.
With any luck, some of this will change in _Magic in the Shadows_.
For now, however, I think that either Enchanting is too easy or enchanted
objects are too expensive. With the numbers working out like the above,
there should be a LOT of mages going into the enchanting business (which
will eventually drive down prices, as the market's flooded).

--Sean

--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4
Message no. 28
From: Tarek Okail <Tarek_Okail@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Enchanting
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 02:45:48 -0400
Sean--

>For now, however, I think that either Enchanting is too easy
>or enchanted objects are too expensive. With the numbers working
>out like the above, there should be a LOT of mages going into the
>enchanting business (which will eventually drive down prices, as
>the market's flooded).

Hmm. No. I don't see any problem with this. I'd like to
remind you that every circulation takes 28 days of sheer hell for
the Enchanter. The Enchanter *cannot* leave the circulation going
unattended for more than a couple of hours at most. 28 days of
catnaps, soykaf, and Dominion's Pizza would probably drive most
people insane. I think they forgot about the BODY tests to avoid
the symptoms of sleep deprivation after the first week or so, and
then, on top of that, WILLPOWER tests to stay awake and ignore the
hallucinations in the last week or two...
As written, a simple set of successes on the Enchanting
test is sufficient to generate the radicals. However, keep in
mind that Enchanters are *also* the primary makers of Foci. Any
Enchanter will take those radicals that he generated and promptly
hoard them away for use in enchanting Foci of various sorts. Also,
any Enchanter is also likely to be making and selling Foci, as the
process of making Radicals is quite taxing. There are very few
magicians who would put their butts on the line by selling Foci
that they've made, as each and every one of them is a Material
Link to the Enchanter. Don't believe me? Remember, it's not a
Focus unless the First Bonding cost has been paid, and it *must*
be bonded at the end of the Enchanting process. <eg>

Shadowmage
Message no. 29
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Enchanting
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 10:13:15 -0400
On Sun, 27 Sep 1998, Sean McCrohan wrote:

<snip>
-> Now, all set up, he settles down to brew some orichalcum. This
->takes a firm 28 days - this time limit may not be changed. It's tiring,
->and he only gets about 3 hours of sleep at a time, but he pulls through
->the entire month. He makes an Enchanting(4) test (10 minus his magic
->rating of 6 - we'll be kind and assume he's not an initiate), with his
->skill of 7. Let's be conservative and say he gets 3 sucesses.
<snip>
-> All of which just goes to show that thaumaturgy students who're
->interested in making LOTS OF MONEY don't go into sorcery or conjuring -
->they go into enchanting.
-> With any luck, some of this will change in _Magic in the Shadows_.
->For now, however, I think that either Enchanting is too easy or enchanted
->objects are too expensive. With the numbers working out like the above,
->there should be a LOT of mages going into the enchanting business (which
->will eventually drive down prices, as the market's flooded).

I had a mage with a Magic Rating of 8, Enchanting of 6 and a
helluvalotta Karma Pool (which, I don't know if I was allowed to use it
off-time, but I did just to see what happened). I ended up rolling 32
dice (26 Karma Pool + 6 Enchanting) [This is with SR2, didn't have SR3, I
would have only had 13 dice plus two for rerolls under SR3] against a
target number of 2 (10-Magic Rating). With two rerolls of failures, I had
no failures. I ended up retiring the character after he finally sold it
all off, so I'll agree with you that the rules on Enchanting need a little
revamping. Anybody need 3 mil in Orichalcum? ]:-)

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 30
From: Brian Moore <mooreb@****.FAC.COM>
Subject: Re: Enchanting
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 13:30:20 -0400
Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU> said:
> <other stuff snipped>
>
> All of which just goes to show that thaumaturgy students who're
> interested in making LOTS OF MONEY don't go into sorcery or conjuring -
> they go into enchanting.

It's worse than your examples show; a mage can make millions of nuyen a
year by making low force Power Foci. He needs a steady supply of radicals
(herbal, mineral, and metal), which are ridiculously cheap. He also
needs a supply of customers interested in Power Foci with 1xForce Karma
cost (First Bonding karma costs are REAL cheap) and available on short
notice (they have to be there when he finishes the enchantment). I think
people would happily sleep on his doorstep for that.

> With any luck, some of this will change in _Magic in the Shadows_.
> For now, however, I think that either Enchanting is too easy or enchanted
> objects are too expensive. With the numbers working out like the above,
> there should be a LOT of mages going into the enchanting business (which
> will eventually drive down prices, as the market's flooded).

I agree, the prices are too high for Foci AND too low for radicals AND
enchanting is too easy. Hopefully MITS will change that.

--
Brian Moore, mooreb@***.com | I wrote up a nice script to truncate all News&
First Albany Corp. Sysadmin | Mail sigs that are greater than 4 lines long.
standard disclaimers apply | It is still in beta testing due to an off-by-
Message no. 31
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Enchanting
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 01:52:34 EDT
In a message dated 9/28/1998 9:18:09 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US writes:

> I had a mage with a Magic Rating of 8, Enchanting of 6 and a
> helluvalotta Karma Pool (which, I don't know if I was allowed to use it
> off-time, but I did just to see what happened). I ended up rolling 32
> dice (26 Karma Pool + 6 Enchanting) [This is with SR2, didn't have SR3, I
> would have only had 13 dice plus two for rerolls under SR3] against a
> target number of 2 (10-Magic Rating). With two rerolls of failures, I had
> no failures. I ended up retiring the character after he finally sold it
> all off, so I'll agree with you that the rules on Enchanting need a little
> revamping. Anybody need 3 mil in Orichalcum? ]:-)
>
(* sounds of lots of laughter from K's house over the horizon)

Okay, sorry folks, this is just something that I loved reading. I do agree
that *something* is not quite right with the rules for Enchanting (Alchemy)
and (Talismongering) are not very well written, but there is literally no
listening ears in "the Home Base" of FASA when it comes to this concept at
this time.

I have always found that the production of *any* magical goodie on the part of
the Player-Character is an open invitation to abuse. Believe me, I do know
this one. Money is a driving force, and with loads of money, you can wind up
with loads of driving force.

Buy new toys.
Buy a new lifestyle (hell, if you have enough, three or four is always good to
fall back on ;)
Buy more new toys.
Upgrade the decker's toys for him, have him write up some stuff to help you
sell your stuff.
Upgrade the street samurai's stuff so he can do all the fighting and let you
stand back and throw spells and/or spell defense.
Get the rigger a *REALLY* cool vehicle, to help you carry away all that neat
stuff you've *gathered* up recently. Get the RCV(TM) some cool weaponry if
you plan on going anywhere "not-very-nice".

Okay, I enjoy the concept of the cash, especially if a group of PC's wants the
upgrades, but the money allocations from the GM are sparse for a period of
time.

Hell, it becomes even funnier with regards to the Flaw "Dependant" IMO.

As for the rules. I have a lot of them, and for some reason, I guess I'm just
disheartened still that they aren't really enjoyed enough to get any feedback
from people.

later, I feel like Killing something....

-K
Message no. 32
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Enchanting
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 09:02:18 -0400
On Tue, Sep 29, 1998 at 01:52:34AM -0400, K in the Shadows wrote:
> As for the rules. I have a lot of them, and for some reason, I guess I'm just
> disheartened still that they aren't really enjoyed enough to get any feedback
> from people.
>
> later, I feel like Killing something....
>

Which rules did you mean, here? After taking the time to work
through that enchanting example, if you have an alternate set of rules,
I'd be glad to do the same.... :)
Or were you looking for suggestions to help balance out
Enchanting? For foci, I think making the 'unusual material' optional
rule non-optional takes a big step in that direction.

--Sean

--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4
Message no. 33
From: Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Enchanting
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 10:44:54 -0400
I've been reading about runners who suddenly "discover" the
profit-potential of Enchanting, and then drop out of running to make loads
of cred as enchanters. And I suppose it could happen, but I've never seen
it for one reason: Enchanting is BORING. I consider it to be the magical
equivalent of tax accounting: potentially very lucrative, but not the most
exciting of careers. Enchanting is tedious, tiring, repetitive, and DULL.

IOW, anybody who'd pursue shadowrunning as a viable career option probably
isn't cut out to be a professional enchanter in the first place. If they
were, they'd have done it in the first place. For that matter, there
aren't that many magicians with the patience for enchanting, period. Not
when they can work on other stuff like spells, spirits, and initiation. So
good roleplaying usually precludes most such incidents.

However, if you do have a PC who wants to go this route, here's how I'd
handle it. Bear in mind that the enchantment market is a limited one.
There's only so many magicians out there, and they can spare only so much
karma to bond foci. So the market can only support so many talismongers,
and they in turn can support only so many enchanters. And that doesn't
include the market for "hot" foci. So we're talking a very tight
shadow-market, and probably a very cutthroat one. You probably won't be
able to set up an enchanting shop without every other organization in the
sprawl hearing about it. So what happens when some hotshot shadowrunner
decides to horn in on the market? What do you think happens? Shadowruns,
of course, against the upstart. It takes very little to blow an
enchantment. And if the newcomer can hold out long enough to complete a
circulation or a focus, then he's got to sell it. That means finding a
buyer who'll snub their regular supplier for an untried newbie. He might
find one, but he won't get anywhere near the price that a tried-and-true
source would. In the end, it's not impossible that the newbie has blown
more money than he's made, even on something high-return like a power focus.

There are no easy rides.

Starjammer | Una salus victus nullam sperare salutem.
starjammer@**********.com | "The one hope of the doomed is not to
hope
Marietta, GA | for safety." --Virgil, The Aeneid
Message no. 34
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Enchanting
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 12:55:46 EDT
In a message dated 9/29/1998 8:03:20 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU writes:

>
> Which rules did you mean, here? After taking the time to work
> through that enchanting example, if you have an alternate set of rules,
> I'd be glad to do the same.... :)
> Or were you looking for suggestions to help balance out
> Enchanting? For foci, I think making the 'unusual material' optional
> rule non-optional takes a big step in that direction.
>
> --Sean

Okay, the rules for Alchemy (Oricalcum as an example). Are they too much in
everyone's opinion? Does the enchanter in question have it to easy? And if
so, why?

The rules for Foci (power, spirit, etc...), again the same questions as above.
Is the bonding cost too much? Too little? How about the enchanting times for
such operations?

How about the idea that expanded rules for advanced foci do not exist? The
Centering Foci is introduced in the Awakenings text, but no rules on how to
make one or how much Karma. If Centering is available as a "Foci", are other
types of foci associated with metamagic also therefore available? Could there
be a "Masking Foci"? And if so, how would you rule it?

How about the enchantment -Rituals- that would probably be necessary to make a
power site similar to those the Druids of Britaine have supposedly
constructed? I don't see one enchanter doing that, I see a Team of them at
work there, and some pretty impressive overall work being performed.

These are my personal problems, and they are only just the beginning.

-K
Message no. 35
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: Enchanting
Date: Fri Jun 22 06:40:01 2001
Hi all,

I asked this a while back, but I think the replies got sidetracked by my
second question in the post, so I'm asking again. if this is bad
listiquette(?), I apologise, but I'm confused;

with the karma rules for enchanting, do the karma reductions for stuff
like orichalum (sp? sorry!) or extra sucesses on the second enchanting
test reduce the *multiplier* (so 1 unit of orichalum reduces a weapon
focus multiplier to 8*rating) or the total cost (so the total cost foa
rating three weapon focus with one unit orichalum, and no other modifiers,
would be 27)? the rules eeem to guggest the latter, but I'm not sure
about one sentence (no books here, damn) which seems to imply it can be
reduced to the rating of the focus, which I'm not sure if it means reduce
the multiplier.. as you can see, I'm getting myself confused here..:-)

if it is the latter, it would seem far better value to buy the focus's as
they seem to cost less karma when bought than when home-made, also a power
4 focus would cost, with no mod's (I think)32 karma, equivalent to three
levels of intiation in a group with ordeal, which would seem expensive
when you consider the extra bonus's a rating 3 initiate would have...

correct me Oh, guru's, point out my mistakes....please?

--
jconstable@*****.com
"Is making my peace with God, a simple or complex action?" - MOTO42 (forums)
Message no. 36
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Valeu John EMFA)
Subject: Enchanting
Date: Fri Jun 22 08:30:01 2001
<snip>

> "Is making my peace with God, a simple or complex action?" -
MOTO42 (forums)

Finaly! I'm no longer quoted!! I really miss MOTO and all the
others on the forums.
Message no. 37
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Brian Moore)
Subject: Enchanting
Date: Fri Jun 22 22:20:01 2001
--- John@*****.co.uk wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I asked this a while back, but I think the replies got sidetracked by my
> second question in the post, so I'm asking again. if this is bad
> listiquette(?), I apologise, but I'm confused;
>
> with the karma rules for enchanting, do the karma reductions for stuff
> like orichalum (sp? sorry!) or extra sucesses on the second enchanting
> test reduce the *multiplier* (so 1 unit of orichalum reduces a weapon
> focus multiplier to 8*rating) or the total cost (so the total cost foa
> rating three weapon focus with one unit orichalum, and no other
> modifiers, would be 27)? the rules eeem to guggest the latter, but I'm
> not sure about one sentence (no books here, damn) which seems to imply
> it can be reduced to the rating of the focus, which I'm not sure if it
> means reduce the multiplier.. as you can see, I'm getting myself
> confused here..:-)

In the SR2 Grimoire, I believe the wording indicated that adjustments are
to the multiplier. In SR3 MITS, the wording clearly indicates that
adjustments are to the total karma cost. SR2 didn't let you reduce the
cost for First Bonding by Enchanting successes/2, while SR3 does.

The end result is that almost any Force 1 focus in SR3 will cost 1 Karma
if done by a decent enchanter. The minimum cost rule means a force 1
focus will always cost at least 1 karma, even though a decent enchanter
could use modifiers to bring the cost of some foci to 0. Higher force
high-multiple foci will be absurdly expensive to bond (unless you play the
Paradise Lost module). But this is probably better than SR2, where a few
units of (easy to make but very expensive) Orichalcum could make higher
force good foci very cheap to bond.

> if it is the latter, it would seem far better value to buy the focus's
> as they seem to cost less karma when bought than when home-made, also a
> power 4 focus would cost, with no mod's (I think)32 karma, equivalent to
> three levels of intiation in a group with ordeal, which would seem
> expensive when you consider the extra bonus's a rating 3 initiate would
> have...

You probably are better off buying high force foci (if you have the
nuyen). But a force 1 power focus would probably only cost a point or two
after mods, far less than an initiation. Even some low force low-multiple
foci will only cost a few karma.


====--
Brian Moore
Gamer. I play everything.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Enchanting, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!