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Message no. 1
From: Carsten Gehling alvion@****.uni2.dk
Subject: Enhanced vision questions
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 14:38:29 +0100
Some quick questions:

My players insist that you can use Vision Magnification(3) along with
Smartlink, if both is installed as cyberware. This would give them a
target number of 2 for all ranges before other modifiers are applied.
Can this be so? If not, why?

Next question: Modern day lowlight equipment requires only a small
lightsource, like a diode, to enable the user to see like daylight. This
is not reflected in the vision-modifiers of neither SR2 or SR3. My
players find the modifiers stupid, and I have trouble arguementing
against them. Any suggestions?

- Carsten
Message no. 2
From: Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject: Enhanced vision questions
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 09:34:21 -0400
At 09:38 AM 5/21/99 , Carsten Gehling wrote:
>Some quick questions:
>
>My players insist that you can use Vision Magnification(3) along with
>Smartlink, if both is installed as cyberware. This would give them a
>target number of 2 for all ranges before other modifiers are applied.
>Can this be so? If not, why?

Strictly by the rules its a gray area. The way most people play is that yes
this is true. But, and this is an important part, there is usually a time
penalty for it. The way we mark it off is one Free Action on the
character's turn to chnage the magnififcation. So if the target is at
Medium Range, it takes a Free Action to go down to Short. If he is at Long
Range, it takes One Free Action to go to Medium, and then another (which
requires his first Simple) to go down to Short. At Extreme range its 3 Free
actions to go down to Short, meaning his entire Complex action that
Inititaive pass.

Also remember that when you're that focused on your target really far away,
it tends to give you tunnel vision. We add a modifier to all surprise and
Dodge tests equal to the Range mag that the character is currently using.

>Next question: Modern day lowlight equipment requires only a small
>lightsource, like a diode, to enable the user to see like daylight. This
>is not reflected in the vision-modifiers of neither SR2 or SR3. My
>players find the modifiers stupid, and I have trouble arguementing
>against them. Any suggestions?

True, but only for items really close to the viewer. For using lowlight
vision to study maps or other close up things using a small little light, I
wouldn't call for any tests. For further out, the TN's are applicable
IMNSHO. For getting rid of those, there is a light pack that can be
installed in cybereyes in Cybertechnology that turns the modifiers into
those for normal light.

Sommers
Insert witty quote here.
Message no. 3
From: Graht Graht@**********.worldnet.att.net
Subject: Enhanced vision questions
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 07:56:33 -0500
Carsten Gehling wrote:
/Some quick questions:
/
/My players insist that you can use Vision Magnification(3) along with
/Smartlink, if both is installed as cyberware. This would give them a
/target number of 2 for all ranges before other modifiers are applied.
/Can this be so? If not, why?

Your players are correct. However, there's an issue that Shadowrun doesn't
address; trying to aim at a moving target through a scope (or while you're
moving yourself) can be a bitch. I learned this when I tried taking pictures
of flying planes an air show while I had a zoom lens on my camera. Trying to
acquire a moving target within the narrow field of view of image magnification
can be trying, let alone keeping the target within your sight after you've
found it.

In my game movement modifiers are multiplied by the rating of the scope. So,
if your target is running and you're using level three image magnification, you
apply a +6 instead of a +2 to the target number for the target's movement.

Image magnification is great if you and your target are stationary, but if
either one of you is moving image magnification quickly loses it's
effectiveness and in fact can be a hinderance.

/Next question: Modern day lowlight equipment requires only a small
/lightsource, like a diode, to enable the user to see like daylight. This
/is not reflected in the vision-modifiers of neither SR2 or SR3. My
/players find the modifiers stupid, and I have trouble arguementing
/against them. Any suggestions?

Well, you can either tell them to write up a reasonable set of rules, or tell
them that no game will ever accurately reflect reality and that they will just
have to accept the bad with the good and get over it. Unless I can come up
with a *very* simple solution or compromise I pick option number two.

-Graht
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
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Message no. 4
From: Sean McGrath nafien@*******.com
Subject: Enhanced vision questions
Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 00:00:28 +1000
> From: Carsten Gehling <alvion@****.uni2.dk>
> To: Shadowrun mailing list <shadowrn@*********.org>
> Subject: Enhanced vision questions
> Date: Friday, 21 May 1999 23:38
>
> Some quick questions:
>
> My players insist that you can use Vision Magnification(3) along with
> Smartlink, if both is installed as cyberware. This would give them a
> target number of 2 for all ranges before other modifiers are applied.
> Can this be so? If not, why?

AFAIK, yes you can. And yes, this gives the characters a BASE target number
of 2 at all ranges. However, as anybody who has looked through a high mag.
scope or binoculars can tell you, it is harder to track a moving object at
high magnification. And since two of my four players have that exact
cybermod we use a little house rule: Multiply ALL movement modifiers by the
Magnification rating of the player's cybermod.

ie. Base T# 2
Target Running +2
Magnification3 x3
Modifier +6
Final T# = 8

It may seem a little harsh, but then so is popping some poor guy at extreme
range with 5 in 6 chance of success per die. I should mention that I assume
Rating 3 mag cybereyes incompasses Rating 1 and 2 etc. So the player only
has to use the appropriate magnification and isn't overly hampered.

Oh, and they do have to spend Free Actions on an Activate Cyberware action
every time they want to switch magnification. Which means, for instance,
no Drop Prone action while you line your target up, and given they way
Combat Pool refreshes at the start of every Combat Round in SR3, not every
player action ... standing around staring at the opposition can easily get
you killed, or at least seriously fragged up .... twice. Poor bugger just
won't learn <EGMG>

> Next question: Modern day lowlight equipment requires only a small
> lightsource, like a diode, to enable the user to see like daylight. This
> is not reflected in the vision-modifiers of neither SR2 or SR3. My
> players find the modifiers stupid, and I have trouble arguementing
> against them. Any suggestions?

Sorry, I have no idea about the real world mechanics of Low Light systems.
I'm sure someone else will be able to cover this one.

> - Carsten

- Scam
Message no. 5
From: GMPax@***.com GMPax@***.com
Subject: Enhanced vision questions
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 15:00:14 EDT
In a message dated 5/21/99 8:38:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
alvion@****.uni2.dk writes:

> Some quick questions:
>
> My players insist that you can use Vision Magnification(3) along with
> Smartlink, if both is installed as cyberware. This would give them a
> target number of 2 for all ranges before other modifiers are applied.
> Can this be so? If not, why?

I see no problem with this. There has been discussion regarding a penalty to
other actions, when using more than one step of vision magnification; perhaps
this would make the idea more palatable ...

>
> Next question: Modern day lowlight equipment requires only a small
> lightsource, like a diode, to enable the user to see like daylight. This
> is not reflected in the vision-modifiers of neither SR2 or SR3. My
> players find the modifiers stupid, and I have trouble arguementing
> against them. Any suggestions?
>
> - Carsten

Use Cybertechnology and tThe Corporate Security Handbook: in the CSHB, there
are Low Light flashlights, etc. In CyberTech, there is the Eye Light System,
which is one of those diodes, placed directly in the cybereye itself.

Personally, I love Lowlight + Eye Lights ... fun and nifty way to see in the
dark without resorting to the tried-and-true (and overused) Thermal systems.

Sean
GM Pax
Message no. 6
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Enhanced vision questions
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 18:37:21 -0500
:Next question: Modern day lowlight equipment requires only a small
:lightsource, like a diode, to enable the user to see like daylight. This
:is not reflected in the vision-modifiers of neither SR2 or SR3. My
:players find the modifiers stupid, and I have trouble arguementing
:against them. Any suggestions?
:- Carsten


Yeah. let them try some tasks while using real lowlight gear. They will
discover that the "like daylight" view is monchrmatic, tends to be grainy,
has an odd contrast curve, and is frequently lacking in detail (which even a
better system can't alwys fix- its a result of making an image from a
reduced nuber of photons).
If you can't do that, dim down a photo, then let them try and clean it
up using photshop or something. They will extrac a useful image, but not
one as clear as a normal picture.
Another point is that, since the light picked up by lowlight is often
from unusual sources, the shadows are often confusing.
However, I do think that the vision modifiers should apply more to
perception tests than to ranged combat- if you see something, you can shoot
it, even if its just a shadowy mass. It might be a friend, but you'll hit
it dead center, just like in full light...

Mongoose
:
:
:
:
Message no. 7
From: Schizi@***.com Schizi@***.com
Subject: Enhanced vision questions
Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 11:14:26 EDT
In a message dated 5/21/99 8:38:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
alvion@****.uni2.dk writes:

<< My players insist that you can use Vision Magnification(3) along with
Smartlink, if both is installed as cyberware. This would give them a
target number of 2 for all ranges before other modifiers are applied.
Can this be so? If not, why? >>
I have seen a few say you can already, but I must disagree, pg 280 imaging
scopes cannot be used with smartlinks, image mag takes the same effect.
The other rules for apllying mods to long range shooting while moving
seemed good though. :-)
Message no. 8
From: Graht Graht@**********.worldnet.att.net
Subject: Enhanced vision questions
Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 09:56:40 -0500
Schizi@***.com wrote:
/In a message dated 5/21/99 8:38:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
/alvion@****.uni2.dk writes:
/
/<< My players insist that you can use Vision Magnification(3) along with
/ Smartlink, if both is installed as cyberware. This would give them a
/ target number of 2 for all ranges before other modifiers are applied.
/ Can this be so? If not, why? >>
/I have seen a few say you can already, but I must disagree, pg 280 imaging
/scopes cannot be used with smartlinks, image mag takes the same effect.
/ The other rules for apllying mods to long range shooting while moving
/seemed good though. :-)

I thought he was refering to the cyber eye option Vision Magnification.
There's no statement concerning the use of Vision Magnification with a smart
gun link one way or the other, so it's a GM call. IMHO Vision Magnification
and Smart Gun Links are compatible. I still multiply movement modifiers by the
rating of the Vision Magnification.


-Graht
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
ShadowRN GridSec
The ShadowRN FAQ: http://shadowrun.html.com/hlair/
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D+(++) G e+>+++ h--->---- r+++ y+++
http://home.att.net/~Graht
Message no. 9
From: Schizi@***.com Schizi@***.com
Subject: Enhanced vision questions
Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 18:33:04 EDT
In a message dated 5/22/99 11:55:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
Graht@**********.worldnet.att.net writes:

> I thought he was refering to the cyber eye option Vision Magnification.
> There's no statement concerning the use of Vision Magnification with a
smart
> gun link one way or the other, so it's a GM call. IMHO Vision
Magnification
> and Smart Gun Links are compatible. I still multiply movement modifiers
by
> the
> rating of the Vision Magnification.
>
yeah, he was refering to the vision magnification, which is the same as the
scope.
If it is the same game effects, etc. shouldn't it also be just as
imcompatible?
Message no. 10
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Enhanced vision questions
Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 19:52:25 -0700 (PDT)
> I have seen a few say you can already, but I must disagree, pg 280
imaging scopes cannot be used with smartlinks, image mag takes the same
effect.
> The other rules for apllying mods to long range shooting while
moving seemed good though. :-)

IIRC, while it may not mention this in SR3, in the original rules
(SSC), the vision magnification is specificially listed as not being
compatible with smartlinks.

IMNSHO, that rule still applies as it has not been negated by anything
in SR3 saying that they CAN be used together.

*Doc' begs forbearance. For some reason, his brain is frozen today and
he's having real trouble coming up with smartass comments...*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 11
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Enhanced vision questions
Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 22:03:05 -0500
> IIRC, while it may not mention this in SR3, in the original rules
> (SSC), the vision magnification is specificially listed as not being
> compatible with smartlinks.

Negative. SSC doesn't say one way or another.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 12
From: Ken Ken@********.com
Subject: Enhanced vision questions
Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 23:32:32 -0400
I think that the reason that the Imaging scope cant be used with the smart
link is because whether you're using smartgoggles or have cybereyes, you're
still looking through the scope. With the image mags built in, you're
getting both targeting and image magnification from the same place so it
should be able to adjust. you might take a hit in the damage category if
you're going to use image magnification with small arms...but I don't think
it would matter too much with long range weapons like sniper rifles where
image magnification would come in real handy

-----Original Message-----
From: Rand Ratinac [SMTP:docwagon101@*****.com]
Sent: Sunday, May 23, 1999 10:52 PM
To: shadowrn@*********.org
Subject: Re: Enhanced vision questions

> I have seen a few say you can already, but I must disagree, pg 280
imaging scopes cannot be used with smartlinks, image mag takes the same
effect.
> The other rules for apllying mods to long range shooting while
moving seemed good though. :-)

IIRC, while it may not mention this in SR3, in the original rules
(SSC), the vision magnification is specificially listed as not being
compatible with smartlinks.

IMNSHO, that rule still applies as it has not been negated by anything
in SR3 saying that they CAN be used together.

*Doc' begs forbearance. For some reason, his brain is frozen today and
he's having real trouble coming up with smartass comments...*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 13
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: Enhanced vision questions
Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 01:16:40 -0500
On Sun, 23 May 1999 22:03:05 -0500 "Patrick Goodman" <remo@***.net>
writes:
>> IIRC, while it may not mention this in SR3, in the original rules
>> (SSC), the vision magnification is specificially listed as not being
>> compatible with smartlinks.

>Negative. SSC doesn't say one way or another.

I don't think this was in any sourcebook. I think it was in an Errata.
However, if you want a wierd case where Smartlink and Image Magnification
create an unrealistic combination, check out Smartlink II and Image
Magnification 3:
Range Base Target Number
Short 2
Medium 2
Long 1
Extreme 0

Doesn't make sense that you can you shoot better at the extreme of your
range than mid-range, does it? (In case anybody brings it up, catapult
type weapons would have range categories that would go: Extreme, Long,
Medium, Short, Medium, Long, Extreme.)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel)
"Hello, my name is Stephen. This is Dick. He'll see if he has something
your size." -- Jug Ears

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Message no. 14
From: Demonnic Bloodbather demonnic@*********.net
Subject: Enhanced vision questions
Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 21:42:12 +1200
> I think that the reason that the Imaging scope cant be used with the smart
> link is because whether you're using smartgoggles or have cybereyes, you're
> still looking through the scope. With the image mags built in, you're
> getting both targeting and image magnification from the same place so it
> should be able to adjust. you might take a hit in the damage category if
> you're going to use image magnification with small arms...but I don't think
> it would matter too much with long range weapons like sniper rifles where
> image magnification would come in real handy

Ok, here's my point for not allowing imaging scopes and smartlink. Most scopes
come with crosshairs people, which is exactly what the smartlink does. IF you
have crosshairs on the scope, than the smartlink crosshairs would just overlap
the original pair. or, even worse, since you're looking through the imaging
scope with only one eye, you'd have _two_ sets of crosshairs in different
places. This being said, here's how I'd managed it.

A player with vision mag cyber eyes gets to use the reduced range as though he
were looking through an imaging scope of the same magnification, but with a +1
TN penalty if he doesn't have smartlink. This takes care of the fact that any
imaging scope worth it's salt is gonna have crosshairs already. This might seem
kinda harsh, but since you can use the vision mag with thrown weapons, bows,
and crossbows, it evens out, IMO. If they have a smartlink system, they get the
full advantage of an imaging scope, but no bonuses due to the smartlink.
Goggles? Well, choose one or the other chummer. Either you can have the -1 TN
from using smartoggles/sunglasses, or the range reduction of vision mag. I
don't remember what the rulesbook says about using vision mag with weapons, but
this is the only reasonably sane way to run it. Of course, this is all IMHO.

Demonnic
'Non Illegitimi Carborundum Est'
Don't let the bastards grind you down.
Message no. 15
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Enhanced vision questions
Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 12:15:50 +0200
According to Rand Ratinac, at 19:52 on 23 May 99, the word on
the street was...

> IIRC, while it may not mention this in SR3, in the original rules
> (SSC), the vision magnification is specificially listed as not being
> compatible with smartlinks.

You recall incorrectly. I looked in both first and second edition SSCs
just now, and both have exactly the same text, with no mention at all of
whether vision magnification can or cannot work together with a smartlink.

I have always ruled that the two can be used together -- it's not too hard
to build the smartlink so that it takes into account the current
magnification and adjusts the projected crosshairs accordingly. With an
external scope (like one fixed to the weapon) this should be a lot more
difficult.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I never seem to be able to finish what I
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Message no. 16
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Enhanced vision questions
Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 15:39:19 -0500
:However, if you want a wierd case where Smartlink and Image Magnification
:create an unrealistic combination, check out Smartlink II and Image
:Magnification 3:
:Range Base Target Number
:Short 2
:Medium 2
:Long 1
:Extreme 0

I think scopes / image mag decreses the range catogory itself, not the
TN at that range- so those would ALL be "Short: 2", and thus the SL2 bonus
for long and extreme range. Still, a 4 TN for a called shot at Extreme
range seems rather unrealistic, even for a zeroed in gun firing at a fixed
target from a bench vise.

Mongoose
Message no. 17
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Enhanced vision questions
Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 23:54:46 +0100
In article <005101bea62c$f28dbe60$fc40f1cf@****>, Mongoose
<m0ng005e@*********.com> writes
> I think scopes / image mag decreses the range catogory itself, not the
>TN at that range- so those would ALL be "Short: 2", and thus the SL2 bonus
>for long and extreme range. Still, a 4 TN for a called shot at Extreme
>range seems rather unrealistic, even for a zeroed in gun firing at a fixed
>target from a bench vise.

I'd apply the same visibility penalties as for magic. If you can drop
someone effortlessly with a mana bolt, you can try for a long-range
headshot... but haze and dust and such will be problems for both.

--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 18
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Enhanced vision questions
Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 19:06:52 -0700 (PDT)
> > IIRC, while it may not mention this in SR3, in the original rules
(SSC), the vision magnification is specificially listed as not being
compatible with smartlinks.
>
> You recall incorrectly. I looked in both first and second edition
SSCs just now, and both have exactly the same text, with no mention at
all of whether vision magnification can or cannot work together with a
smartlink.
>
> I have always ruled that the two can be used together -- it's not too
hard to build the smartlink so that it takes into account the current
magnification and adjusts the projected crosshairs accordingly. With an
external scope (like one fixed to the weapon) this should be a lot more
difficult.
> Gurth@******.nl

You're right, I was mistaken.

I think this is one of those ones where we took the 'can't be used with
a telescopic sight' rule and decided it had to apply to cyberware too
for purposes of game balance. So I'd stand by the, "Yes, it might work
in theory, but no, you can't have it, you're already tough enough as it
is" point of view - in my games at least. :)

Hey, what does it say about Smartlink IIs in Fields of Fire? Is any
mention made of this subject there?

*Doc' wonders if a rangefinder can be used to make sexual activities
more efficient...*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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