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Message no. 1
From: Zaeki@***.com
Subject: EPM Grenades?
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 18:04:26 -0500
How come I haven't seen any SRII Rules on EMP grenades. Ya know,
electromagnetic pulse grenades. The one's that take out electrical
mechanisms. I know that they exist at present (or I think they
do...<shrug>). If anyone knows where to find or has made pricings, damage,
availability, etc... Could someone please mail them to me?
Message no. 2
From: James Meiers <polbdm@***.unm.edu>
Subject: Re: EPM Grenades?
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 17:40:18 -0700 (MST)
On Tue, 23 Jan 1996 Zaeki@***.com wrote:

> How come I haven't seen any SRII Rules on EMP grenades. Ya know,
> electromagnetic pulse grenades. The one's that take out electrical
> mechanisms. I know that they exist at present (or I think they
> do...<shrug>). If anyone knows where to find or has made pricings, damage,
> availability, etc... Could someone please mail them to me?
No. The reason ius because EMP grendes are not realistically possible and
probably never will be. The energy needed to crete a EMP in the first
place requirres the release of nuclear energy which would kill you before
the EMP could hurt you. The amount of energy is also too much to put it
in a grenade. You've been reading too much Cyberpunk 2020.
Message no. 3
From: Mike Loseke <mike@***.sc.colostate.edu>
Subject: Re: EPM Grenades?
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 07:30:18 -0700
Zaeki@***.com wrote:
>
> How come I haven't seen any SRII Rules on EMP grenades. Ya know,
> electromagnetic pulse grenades. The one's that take out electrical
> mechanisms. I know that they exist at present (or I think they
> do...<shrug>). If anyone knows where to find or has made pricings, damage,
> availability, etc... Could someone please mail them to me?

We included CP:2020s "Pulse Rifle" in the SWO Guns Cyberpunk conversions for
Shadowrun. It's not a grenade, but the mechanism on how it works would be
pretty easily translated into a grenade. The URL is:

http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~loseke/swo

under the "CP:2020 Weapon Conversions" link.

For one of the other threads on here, there's also the webgun which has a
mono-web, det-web...

--
Mike Loseke | It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion,
Webmaster / SysAdm | It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed,
Lory Student Center | The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning,
Colo. State Univ. | It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
Message no. 4
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: EPM Grenades?
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 16:50:20 +0100
Zaeki@***.com said on 23 Jan 96...

> How come I haven't seen any SRII Rules on EMP grenades. Ya know,
> electromagnetic pulse grenades. The one's that take out electrical
> mechanisms. I know that they exist at present (or I think they
> do...<shrug>). If anyone knows where to find or has made pricings, damage,
> availability, etc... Could someone please mail them to me?

Download the Chromebook conversions from my page (and pick up a copy of
CP2020's Chromebook 1) and there's an EMP grenade in there.

But to save you the trouble, this is what I came up with for that grenade:

Within 4 meters of the detonation point, everyoen rolls for cyberware
damage as if they've taken a Deadly wound. Everyone within 10 meters rolls
as if they took a Serious wound. The only things that can get damaged are
those that use electricity to function, so your dermal plating won't get
fried.
Also, anyone within 10 meters receives a +4 TN modifier for 3 turns due to
orientation loss from the pulse. Reduce this time by 1 turn per two
successes rolled on a Body (6) test.

Conceal: 6
Damage: special
Weight: .3 kg
Availability: 10/10 days
Cost: 400Y
Street Index: 4

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Don't we all think we're the exception?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(----) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 5
From: "Nat C." <natc@*****.net>
Subject: Re: EPM Grenades?
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 15:43:21 -0500 (EST)
On Tue, 23 Jan 1996, James Meiers wrote:

>
> On Tue, 23 Jan 1996 Zaeki@***.com wrote:
>
> > How come I haven't seen any SRII Rules on EMP grenades. Ya know,
> > electromagnetic pulse grenades. The one's that take out electrical
> > mechanisms. I know that they exist at present (or I think they
> > do...<shrug>). If anyone knows where to find or has made pricings,
damage,
> > availability, etc... Could someone please mail them to me?
> No. The reason ius because EMP grendes are not realistically possible and
> probably never will be. The energy needed to crete a EMP in the first
> place requirres the release of nuclear energy which would kill you before
> the EMP could hurt you. The amount of energy is also too much to put it
> in a grenade. You've been reading too much Cyberpunk 2020.

Wait, that's not totally true. Raido transmissions are just
electromagnetic pulses but on a extreemly low frequency and the equipment
used to make them can make tons each second. A gernade is entirely
possible because it is build to deliver one large high energy burst. It
would, unlike normal gernades, no emit electromagnetic energy in the form
of light and heat but high order radiation. An atom bomb is very good at
making such radiation but in this case I think you wouldn't want such a
bulky an expencive device and probibly don't want to kill people. The
gernade wouldn't so much as explode as an atom bomb which just causes
radioactive mateal to decompose at extreem rates, contaminating the
surounding area with radiation. The gernade would just bombard some
radioactive material with electrons, causing an extreem amount of electro
magnetic energy to be releaced. This would only be dangerous to people
standing in the imediate area for a prolonged exposure to the radioactive
materal or a long pulse of energy (X-rays are dangerous if you say close
to long but in the time it takes for the gernade to work or for the X-ray
machine to take a picture is not enough to harm a person). Perhaps a more
reasonable weapon is an electro magnetic time bomb.

-Xyphius
Message no. 6
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: EPM Grenades?
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 13:48:45 -0500 (EST)
On Tue, 30 Jan 1996 acgetchell@*******.edu wrote:

> It has nothing to do with the supposed "Doomsday Device" the
> Soviets claimed they had.

You mean the one they didn't tell anyone about? :)

Marc ("Do you know what the commies are doing to our water, Major?")
Message no. 7
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: EPM Grenades?
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 13:34:03 +1100 (EST)
[Re: EMP grenades]
>I can't even
>imagine what it would require to screw up cybernetics which are run using
>sheilded fiber optics.

Well, you couldn't... fiber is immune to EM interference (which is why
the ONLY way to tap a fiber line is to physically cut it and put in a
splitter). Though, if you were close enough to a repeater, you might be
able to do garbage..


--
Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 8
From: t_little@**********.utas.edu.au (Timothy Little)
Subject: Re: EPM Grenades?
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 22:35:13 +1100
>Admitedly, yes the power is possibly there. But with an explosion that big,

What do you mean, 'that big'? The example I gave involved about quarter of
a pound of explosive.

>why bother with the EMP concept to begin with? Plus, the "few gigawatts" of
>power was also only able to disrupt a couple of calculators.

The example produced a hundred gigawatts or more. With focussed high-speed
explosives, possibly a Terawatt or so could be directed on a very
short-lived device of 21st-century construction.

> I can't even
>imagine what it would require to screw up cybernetics which are run using
>sheilded fiber optics.

To disrupt fiber optics with EMP would require enough power to physically
destroy said fiber optics. Optical systems are not susceptible to EMP, and
hence don't need to be EMP shielded. If cybernetics don't involve any
electronics, they are probably essentially immune to any EMP device.

--
Tim Little
Message no. 9
From: Vincent.Pellerin@***.gmc.ulaval.ca (Vincent Pellerin)
Subject: Re: EPM Grenades?
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 96 12:16:39 AST
The discution around the EMP grenade had me remembered an "old" idea of how
they might work (for a GUPRS Space game if you're interested).

The idea come from two "souces",
1-The general theory is that once superconducting materials are avaibles,
rings made of superconducting materials could hold huge amount of power, as
induced current inside it would never stop. These could act as power cells,
and even power citys during high electrical demand periods.

2-I saw a scientific reporting on TV about test by our electric company
(Hydro Quebec). They used huge capacitors to create EM pulse with
ligthnings inside the laboratory.

I'm not a physicist so i could be in error but it could be a "probable" way
of creating this in 2056 (assuming the SR world as acheaved this, i think it
have).


How to built a EMP grenade

fist, you begin by taking a couple hundred meter (or kilometer depending on
the thicknessof the "wire", it could even be a single ring) of
superconducting wires, you roll it around a small explosive to form a small
ball. All you have to do now is induce a lot of current inside.

All you have to do, to get an EM pulse is to trigger the explosive. The
"chunks" of wire will create "ligthning" when they separate, getting
you
localised emp pulse.

Here is the knew ideas...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

ARES PEMPG (personnal electro-magnetic pulse generator)

ARES as finally begun the production of this wonderfull peice of
technology. Available trought our 2056 security catalog come the first
personnal version of this incredible non-lethal tool. With minimal
colateral and direct damage you can disrupt the normal operation of a
vehicule, weapons, cyberware and any other piece of electronic equipement.

PEMPG
CONCEAL 5
Damage 10M/special (10,-1/0.5m)
Weight 0.75
Avail. 18/21 days
Price/Street Index 1000¥/3

Effects, detonation settings as regular grenades (non-aerodynamic), damage
code take effect in a 1m radius zone. Special damage take place on all
equipement using electronics, including cyberware, vehicules etc.. Roll a
number of dices equal to the power of the "special" damage, the test is
resisted by a nuber of dices equal to the target number.

"delicate" equipement 3 (decks, computers)
communication equipement 4
firearms and accessories 5
Vehicules and cyberware 6

If military equipement (shielded, or ecm 5+) add +2

EFFECTS
0 success -Cosmetic effects, a small glitch in operation.
1 Success -Use of equipement subject to a +2 for next phase of action, or a
crash test if
using a rig on a vehicule.
2 Success -The peice of equipement is out of oreder for 2D6 action phases,
as system reboot,
self diagnostics correct problems.
3 Success -The equipement will not work, make a build/repair test
(target 4 +mod page 183 SRIIbase time of 10 actions if under stress).
4+ Success -The equipement won't work and is damaged, electronic must be
repaired.

The gamaster must use is jugdment on witch peices of equipement must resist,
the actual
target number and effects.


This "option" not availbale for grenades destined to grenade laucher.

Here is some other munition for EMP effects

EMP Rockets
Damage 10M/special (10,-1/0.5m)
Weight 3
Avail. 20/21 days
Price/Street Index 5000¥/4/4

EMP Missiles
Intelligence 4
Damage 10M/special (10,-1/0.5m)
Weight 3.25
Avail. 24/21 days
Price/Street Index 8000¥/5

Ballista
add 3000¥, +8 availability, for the Mk of your choice
street index 5

Mortar EMP ammunitions
Damage 12M/special (12,-1/0.5m)
Weight 4
Avail. 22/21 days
Price/Street Index 5000¥/5

>>>>>[ You can tell when these were just being used, a sharp
"crack" sound,
the ozone
scent and your electronic equipement catch a "frizzle".]<<<<<
-The Romanian(21:20:35/01-31-96)

>>>>>[ Heee! does'nt most system use optical compoments now? Shoud'nt it
be
immune
to this dreck?]<<<<<
-Flash(21:22:07/01-31-96)

>>>>>[ Yes it do use optical compoments, but most of what is around it is
electronics,
and is vulnerable to EMP. That make about everything in our beautiful
world.]<<<<<
-The Romanian(21:32:59/01-31-96)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------

Well, that's it, it's knew, so it is hard to get and cost a lot. It can be
used by gamemaster in multiple ways, to get the PC's plane to land without
destroying it, to capture them without injuries, etc..

And the PC will love it to (i guess).

What do you think...

_________________________________________________________________________
| _____ |
| \ \ / Don't steal,... |
| \ __/ / ...the government hates the competition |
| \ / |
| \_/ Vincent.Pellerin@***.gmc.ulaval.ca |
|________________________________________________________________________|
Message no. 10
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: EPM Grenades?
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 10:49:49 -0700 (MST)
Vincent Pellerin wrote:
|
|The discution around the EMP grenade had me remembered an "old" idea of how
|they might work (for a GUPRS Space game if you're interested).
|
[snip - description of grenade and effects]
|
| What do you think...

I Like it. I want to see what the physicists on this list think about it
though.

-David

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Buehrer
mailto:dbuehrer@****.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.html
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 11
From: neon@******.backbone.olemiss.edu (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: Re: EPM Grenades?
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 12:35:17 -0600
> I'm not a physicist so i could be in error but it could be a "probable" way
>of creating this in 2056 (assuming the SR world as acheaved this, i think it
>have).
>
>
>How to built a EMP grenade
>
> fist, you begin by taking a couple hundred meter (or kilometer depending on
>the thicknessof the "wire", it could even be a single ring) of
>superconducting wires, you roll it around a small explosive to form a small
>ball. All you have to do now is induce a lot of current inside.
>
>Vincent.Pellerin@***.gmc.ulaval.ca |

Neat idea and all, but there is one major flaw. There currently is not, and
as far as I know in SR either, any material that is stable at room
temperature, and acts as a superconductor. As well as the fact that
superconductors still induce resitance to the electricity flowing through
them, just at a lower voltage.

Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"You only need two things in this world. WD40 to make things go, and
duct tape to make them stop."
Message no. 12
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: EPM Grenades?
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 11:52:48 -0700 (MST)
Mike Broadwater wrote:
|
|>How to built a EMP grenade
|>
|> fist, you begin by taking a couple hundred meter (or kilometer depending on
|>the thicknessof the "wire", it could even be a single ring) of
|>superconducting wires, you roll it around a small explosive to form a small
|>ball. All you have to do now is induce a lot of current inside.
|>
|>Vincent.Pellerin@***.gmc.ulaval.ca |
|
|Neat idea and all, but there is one major flaw. There currently is not, and
|as far as I know in SR either, any material that is stable at room
|temperature, and acts as a superconductor. As well as the fact that
|superconductors still induce resitance to the electricity flowing through
|them, just at a lower voltage.

I could have sworn I read that room temperature superconductors existed in
SR. Could someone check p. 84 of ShadowTech? I'm at work and don't have my
books handy, but I do have Sascha's index.

-David

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Buehrer
mailto:dbuehrer@****.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.html
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 13
From: neon@******.backbone.olemiss.edu (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: Re: EPM Grenades?
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 13:13:18 -0600
>I could have sworn I read that room temperature superconductors existed in
>SR. Could someone check p. 84 of ShadowTech? I'm at work and don't have my
>books handy, but I do have Sascha's index.
>
>-David

I know they said they had table top fusion, but only on a large scale.
Maybe it was mentioned with that. If they do have the super conductors,
that would change my mind on that part of it.

Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"You only need two things in this world. WD40 to make things go, and
duct tape to make them stop."
Message no. 14
From: "A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: EPM Grenades?
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 19:27:23 +0000 (GMT)
|Neat idea and all, but there is one major flaw. There currently is not, and
|as far as I know in SR either, any material that is stable at room
|temperature, and acts as a superconductor.

Well, not at room temperature, but one *has* been discovered that requires
*relatively* high temperatures....
I *think* it works as a superconductor at liquid nitrogen temperatures.


As well as the fact that superconductors still induce resitance to the
electricity flowing through them, just at a lower voltage.(I think you mean
resistance)

WRONG! The definition of a super conductor is one that *has* no resistance
to electricity. That's why it's possible to levitate magnets on them without
the need for power. The magnets generate thier own sympathetic electrical
currents in the superconductor, which then generate an equal magnetic force
which repels the magnet.
If there was any resistance, the energy generated would not be enough to
levitate the magnet.

Considering the fact that it's quite easy to store Liquid Nitrogen (all you
need is a sturdy vacuum flask), the superconductor idea will work.

I'm not sure the EMP thing will though.....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
| |What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crackin |
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk |the ground beneath a giant bolder, which you can't |
| |move, with no hope of rescue. |
|Andrew Halliwell |Consider how lucky you are that life has been good |
|Principal in:- |to you so far... |
|Comp Sci & Visual Arts | -The BOOK, Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 15
From: seb@***.ripco.com (Sebastian Wiers)
Subject: Re: EPM Grenades?
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 13:35:29 -0600 (CST)
>
> >I could have sworn I read that room temperature superconductors existed in
> >SR. Could someone check p. 84 of ShadowTech? I'm at work and don't have my
> >books handy, but I do have Sascha's index.
> >
> >-David
>
> I know they said they had table top fusion, but only on a large scale.
> Maybe it was mentioned with that. If they do have the super conductors,
> that would change my mind on that part of it.
>
What is large scale table top fusion? (besides an oxymoron and technically
dubious?) Also, room temp superconductors would not make EMP bombs ipso facto
possible- many supeconductors cannot suppurt srtong magnetic fields.


> Mike Broadwater
> http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
> "You only need two things in this world. WD40 to make things go, and
> duct tape to make them stop."
>
>


--
() _
/\ /) //
/ ) o _, // o // _
/__/__<_(_) o //__<_</_</_
/| />
|/ </
Message no. 16
From: neon@******.backbone.olemiss.edu (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: Re: EPM Grenades?
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 13:45:08 -0600
>What is large scale table top fusion? (besides an oxymoron and technically
>dubious?) Also, room temp superconductors would not make EMP bombs ipso facto
>possible- many supeconductors cannot suppurt srtong magnetic fields.
Table top fusion is just a different term for cold fusion. Fusion without
having to use a tremendous amount of energy. Large scale would be full
sized power plants. Did you read 'And So It Came To Pass'? Fusion in SR was
mentioned in there.
>--
> () _
> /\ /) //
> / ) o _, // o // _
>/__/__<_(_) o //__<_</_</_
> /| />
> |/ </
>
Thank you for your basically useless coments which you made for the sole
purpose of trying, and failing, to show your superiority over others.

Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"You only need two things in this world. WD40 to make things go, and
duct tape to make them stop."
Message no. 17
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: EPM Grenades?
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 12:50:24 -0700 (MST)
Sebastian Wiers wrote:
|
|> I know they said they had table top fusion, but only on a large scale.
|> Maybe it was mentioned with that. If they do have the super conductors,
|> that would change my mind on that part of it.
|>
|What is large scale table top fusion? (besides an oxymoron and technically
|dubious?) Also, room temp superconductors would not make EMP bombs ipso facto
|possible- many supeconductors cannot suppurt srtong magnetic fields.

In SR cold fusion is possible, but only on a large scale. Cold fusion
generators are bigger than a car (I'm not sure of the exact size). So
they're only good for powering buildings and cities.

-David

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Buehrer
mailto:dbuehrer@****.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.html
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 18
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: EPM Grenades?
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 12:57:56 -0700 (MST)
Sebastian Wiers wrote:
|
|Also, room temp superconductors would not make EMP bombs ipso facto
|possible- many supeconductors cannot suppurt srtong magnetic fields.

Do you mean that many superconductors cannot be spun into wire to make a
magnet, or do you mean that many superconductors cannot be used to create
magnetic fields irregardless? If the problem is that many superconductors
can't be spun into wire I'll agree with you. But I thought that if you had
the right shape (a wire coil) and electricity that you ended up with a
magnetic field.

-David

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Buehrer
mailto:dbuehrer@****.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.html
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 19
From: "A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: EPM Grenades?
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 20:18:02 +0000 (GMT)
|
|Sebastian Wiers wrote:
||
||Also, room temp superconductors would not make EMP bombs ipso facto
||possible- many supeconductors cannot suppurt srtong magnetic fields.
|
|Do you mean that many superconductors cannot be spun into wire to make a
|magnet, or do you mean that many superconductors cannot be used to create
|magnetic fields irregardless? If the problem is that many superconductors
|can't be spun into wire I'll agree with you. But I thought that if you had
|the right shape (a wire coil) and electricity that you ended up with a
|magnetic field.

Whenever you put electricity through a conductor a magnetic field is
produced. There's no escaping electro-magnetism, they're inextricably
linked.
I think the point he was trying to make was that punping so much energy into
the superconductor would cause it to fail *before* the EMP could be built
up.

--
______________________________________________________________________________
| |What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crackin |
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk |the ground beneath a giant bolder, which you can't |
| |move, with no hope of rescue. |
|Andrew Halliwell |Consider how lucky you are that life has been good |
|Principal in:- |to you so far... |
|Comp Sci & Visual Arts | -The BOOK, Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 20
From: Vincent.Pellerin@***.gmc.ulaval.ca (Vincent Pellerin)
Subject: Re: EPM Grenades?
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 96 15:17:10 AST
David Buehrer wrote
>|Neat idea and all, but there is one major flaw. There currently is not, and
>|as far as I know in SR either, any material that is stable at room
>|temperature, and acts as a superconductor. <snip>
>
>I could have sworn I read that room temperature superconductors existed in
>SR. Could someone check p. 84 of ShadowTech? I'm at work and don't have my
>books handy, but I do have Sascha's index.

Yes! You are wright, so these EMP weapons would need liquid nitrogen to keep
their superconductivities. That would account to the availability and price.
You'd need spare nitrogen to keep them cool (or else they would "detonate"). It
is a page 84, "The search continues, however,for disproof of the Goddard
theore and the ever- elusive room-temperature superconductor."

_________________________________________________________________________
| _____ |
| \ \ / Don't steal,... |
| \ __/ / ...the government hates the competition |
| \ / |
| \_/ Vincent.Pellerin@***.gmc.ulaval.ca |
|________________________________________________________________________|
Message no. 21
From: MikeE@******.dragonsys.com
Subject: Re: EPM Grenades? -Reply
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 15:19:52 -0500
David Buehrer wrote: (about superconductors)
>I thought that if you had the right shape (a wire
>coil) and electricity that you ended up with a
>magnetic field.

Yes, but he said a STRONG magnetic field. The
problem isn't the magnetic field itself but the fact
that all superconductors known in 1996 have a
low "maximum current density", the largest
amount of current you can have flowing in them
(per cross section) before the current makes it
stop acting like a superconductor. Induce too
much current (and get too much magnetic field)
and the thing acts like a regular wire :(

I can easily believe that 2057 will have room
temperature superconductors, but not ones with
maximum current densities more than ten times
the maximum ones known to man currently. Of
course, who knows what 50 years of science will
bring...

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 22
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: EPM Grenades? -Reply
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 13:48:22 -0700 (MST)
MikeE@******.dragonsys.com wrote:
|
|David Buehrer wrote: (about superconductors)
|>I thought that if you had the right shape (a wire
|>coil) and electricity that you ended up with a
|>magnetic field.
|
|Yes, but he said a STRONG magnetic field. The
|problem isn't the magnetic field itself but the fact
|that all superconductors known in 1996 have a
|low "maximum current density", the largest
|amount of current you can have flowing in them
|(per cross section) before the current makes it
|stop acting like a superconductor. Induce too
|much current (and get too much magnetic field)
|and the thing acts like a regular wire :(

I was not aware of that. But, due to your simple and concise explanation, I
am now. Thanks.

-David

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Buehrer
mailto:dbuehrer@****.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.html
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 23
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: EPM Grenades?
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 13:55:39 -0700 (MST)
Vincent Pellerin wrote:
|
|David Buehrer wrote
|>|Neat idea and all, but there is one major flaw. There currently is not, and
|>|as far as I know in SR either, any material that is stable at room
|>|temperature, and acts as a superconductor. <snip>
|>
|>I could have sworn I read that room temperature superconductors existed in
|>SR. Could someone check p. 84 of ShadowTech? I'm at work and don't have my
|>books handy, but I do have Sascha's index.
|
|It is on page 84, "The search continues, however,for disproof of the Goddard
|theory and the ever-elusive room-temperature superconductor."

Well, unless you allow room temperature superconductors that can handle the
"current density" in your game, that pretty much settles that.

But, if such a superconductor did exist, would the EMP device work? I've
got a possible adventure idea and I want to know if it's feasible before I
run with it.

-David

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Buehrer
mailto:dbuehrer@****.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.html
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 24
From: DarkAngelI@******.com
Subject: Re: EPM Grenades
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 13:09:31 -0800
----------------------------- Begin Original Text
-----------------------------

Special damage take place on all
equipement using electronics, including cyberware, vehicules etc..
----------------------------- End Original Text -----------------------------

Cyberware uses sheilded fiber optics, and therefore can't be affected. Plus,
we already discussed making an EMP grenade and it would require far too much
energy to disrupt electronics. As you asked, there are no superconductors
that can be used above -148 degrees Celsius. With this in mind, you couldn't
contain it long enough towork, if it could at all.
Example: A calculator placed near the electromagnetic field of hydroelectric
plant (or any plant) generator, it would be HARD to use, but not impossible.
Could you imagine what it would require to screw up a vehicle's systems? Not
to mention the astronomical cost! A x1000 would be peanuts compared to the
actual cost! I think its been shown by most people on this list that it is
NOT a feasible concept. Maybe in a few more hundred years, but not in fifty.
The Dark Angel
Message no. 25
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: EPM Grenades
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 14:55:37 -0700 (MST)
DarkAngelI@******.com wrote:
|
|Cyberware uses sheilded fiber optics, and therefore can't be affected. [by
|EMP]

Where does it say that? Under the critter power Electrical Projection it
says that cyberware can be affected by EMP. And I don't think I've ever
read that cyberware soley uses fiber optics. I don't mean to nit-pick but I
think you're operating under a false assumption. And if I'm operating under
a false assumption I would like to be corrected. Or, it could be another
case of conflicting rules (shrug).

-David

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Buehrer
mailto:dbuehrer@****.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.html
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 26
From: cobaltblue@********.net
Subject: Re: EPM Grenades
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 96 17:29:19 PST
On Wed, 31 Jan 1996 14:55:37 -0700 (MST) David Buehrer wrote:
>DarkAngelI@******.com wrote:
>|
>|Cyberware uses sheilded fiber optics, and therefore can't be affected. [by
>|EMP]
>
>Where does it say that? Under the critter power Electrical Projection it
>says that cyberware can be affected by EMP. And I don't think I've ever
>read that cyberware soley uses fiber optics. I don't mean to nit-pick but I
>think you're operating under a false assumption. And if I'm operating under
>a false assumption I would like to be corrected. Or, it could be another
>case of conflicting rules (shrug).
>
>-David
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>David Buehrer
>mailto:dbuehrer@****.org
>http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.html
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
Dark Angel, if you've ever read Into the Shadows, it details a character called Nadia
Mirin AKA Dawm McGrath who uses a special spell to eliminate the conductive gel in the
cyberware, which allows electrical transmission between the cyber and the user's
body/nervous system. In this way, an EMP grenade could also disrupt this electrical
interface. It doesn't damage the cyberware, just makes the user unable to use it.
Imagine having wired reflexes 3 and suddenly the cyber can't communicate to your body
anymore; you're jello
Hope this helps.
Message no. 27
From: paff@*******.ds.cubic.com (Michael Paff)
Subject: Re: EPM Grenades?
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 16:00:41 -0800
> From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
>
> Do you mean that many superconductors cannot be spun into wire to make a
> magnet, or do you mean that many superconductors cannot be used to create
> magnetic fields irregardless? If the problem is that many superconductors
> can't be spun into wire I'll agree with you. But I thought that if you had
> the right shape (a wire coil) and electricity that you ended up with a
> magnetic field.
>
I believe that some superconductors lose their superconductivity in the
presence of a megnetic field beyond a certain strength. That is a problem with
at least some of the current (relatively) high-temperature superconductors -
if you put too much current through them, the resulting magnetic field causes
the resistance to increase and since the current can't go away immediately, the
wire melts/vaporizes from the sudden heat generated.
Message no. 28
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: EPM Grenades
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 18:18:10 -0600
Cyberware uses sheilded fiber optics, and therefore can't be affected. [by
EMP]

In Shadowtech (pgs. 36-40) there is detailed information on Cyberware. The
wiring portion of it is implanted by nanites which create platinum or gold
(or whatever) threads which are then coated by other nanites so as to be
protected.

The problem, and not an easily solveable one, is figuring out what cyberware
uses a lot of electronic interface and, due to that, would be susceptible to
a magnetic pulse.

Do Wired Reflexes contain a lot of electronics or do they merely alter a
very important part of the body (CNS) and therefore cost a lot of essence?
If they only rely on electricity for a small portion of their work, then the
power would have minimal effect, if any.

How about spurs? Are the reflex controlled or electrically controlled?

Memory is optical, but by the T-bird's power it'd be affected. Go figure.

The Thunderbird's power is nothing short of hideously munchkinous. There
are no real set rules on how it's handled, no real explanations. Just a
blurb that says "this is what happens".

------------------------------------------------------------
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
// /// /// /// //// //// //
//// ///// /// /// /// /// /// /// /// ////// /////
/// ///// /// /// /// /////// ////// //////
// ///// /// /// //////// /// /// /// ////// ///////
/ ///// /// //////// /// /// ////// ////////
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net>
Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team
------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 29
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: EPM Grenades
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 18:24:40 -0600
>[Into the Shadows as a reference on cyberware]

As FASA has stated before, the books do not necessarily translate into
game-truth. The best source is always a sourcebook, and Shadowtech has the
goods on Bioware & Cyberware.


-- TopCat
------------------------------------------------------------
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
// /// /// /// //// //// //
//// ///// /// /// /// /// /// /// /// ////// /////
/// ///// /// /// /// /////// ////// //////
// ///// /// /// //////// /// /// /// ////// ///////
/ ///// /// //////// /// /// ////// ////////
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net>
Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team
------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 30
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: EPM Grenades
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 18:27:35 -0600
>The problem, and not an easily solveable one, is figuring out what cyberware
>uses a lot of electronic interface and, due to that, would be susceptible to
>a magnetic pulse.

Also a problem is that cyberware is never said to have any power source that
I can remember. So it has to be powered by the miniscule emissions of the
CNS or it runs off of batteries. Since no-one has ever recharged a cyberarm
or had to have their wired reflexes jumpstarted before, the first answer is
pretty much the obvious one.


-- TopCat
Message no. 31
From: cobaltblue@********.net
Subject: Re: EPM Grenades
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 96 20:44:04 PST
On Wed, 31 Jan 1996 18:18:10 -0600 TopCat wrote:
>Cyberware uses sheilded fiber optics, and therefore can't be affected. [by
>EMP]
>
>In Shadowtech (pgs. 36-40) there is detailed information on Cyberware. The
>wiring portion of it is implanted by nanites which create platinum or gold
>(or whatever) threads which are then coated by other nanites so as to be
>protected.
>
>The problem, and not an easily solveable one, is figuring out what cyberware
>uses a lot of electronic interface and, due to that, would be susceptible to
>a magnetic pulse.
>
>Do Wired Reflexes contain a lot of electronics or do they merely alter a
>very important part of the body (CNS) and therefore cost a lot of essence?
>If they only rely on electricity for a small portion of their work, then the
>power would have minimal effect, if any.
>
>How about spurs? Are the reflex controlled or electrically controlled?
>
>Memory is optical, but by the T-bird's power it'd be affected. Go figure.
>
>The Thunderbird's power is nothing short of hideously munchkinous. There
>are no real set rules on how it's handled, no real explanations. Just a
>blurb that says "this is what happens".
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
>////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
>// /// /// /// //// //// //
>//// ///// /// /// /// /// /// /// /// ////// /////
>/// ///// /// /// /// /////// ////// //////
>// ///// /// /// //////// /// /// /// ////// ///////
>/ ///// /// //////// /// /// ////// ////////
>////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
>------------------------------------------------------------
>Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net>
>Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team
>------------------------------------------------------------
>
It's probably true that wired reflexes, because your nervous system itself is based
entirely on extreme low-level electronic pulses to the muscle groups, would probably use a
lot of electrical stimulation. But the final decision, of course rests with the GM.
Besides, is he/she gonna allow EMP grenades?

Also, earlier you wrote about the sourcebooks being the best source of information, and
altho that's true, when one of my PCs is trying something wacky (RE: EMP grenades) I like
to refer to the novels. Usually the writers put a new spin on something that I can use to
say "Okay, this might work" or "Hell no, you fool!"
Message no. 32
From: DarkAngelI@******.com
Subject: Re: EPM Grenades
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 22:11:17 -0800
----------------------------- Begin Original Text
-----------------------------

Imagine having wired reflexes 3 and suddenly the cyber can't communicate to
your body anymore; you're jello
----------------------------- End Original Text -----------------------------

But thats magicks, not science. The two have been deemed irrelevant to each
other by FASA.
The Dark Angel
Message no. 33
From: DarkAngelI@******.com
Subject: Re: EPM Grenades
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 22:11:33 -0800
---------------------------- Begin Original Text
-----------------------------

Where does it say that? Under the critter power Electrical Projection it
says that cyberware can be affected by EMP. And I don't think I've ever
read that cyberware soley uses fiber optics. I don't mean to nit-pick but I
think you're operating under a false assumption. And if I'm operating under
a false assumption I would like to be corrected. Or, it could be another
case of conflicting rules (shrug).
----------------------------- End Original Text -----------------------------

Actually, I don't know where it came from. I do know present day robotics use
fiber optics to prevent EMP problems, so I guess that it seemed only logical.
As for the Electrical Projection critter power, yeah it screws up cyberware,
but sending a few hundred volts of electricity into something can do that, ya
know? (It isn't an electromagnetic pulse, it pure electricity involved in
that critter power.)
The Dark Angel
Message no. 34
From: acgetchell@*******.edu (Adam Getchell)
Subject: Re: EPM Grenades?
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 02:47:48 -0800 (PST)
>All you need is the circuitry to convert that power into the correct type of
>electromagnetic pulse.....

Unfortunately, the circuitry necessary (such as a klystron generator) is
rather large and unwieldy. And the power in an explosion isn't the correct
type.

As someone correctly pointed out, you need a collapsing magnetic flux or
electric field (same thing via Maxwell's equations). The thermal energy you
get from the explosion isn't going to convert terribly well;
thermodynamics, you know.

If one could make a superconductor with a high current density, you could
devise a torus to blow to smithereens, although it wouldn't be too cost
efficient.

>Unfortunately, this would probably be destroyed before the pulse could be
>generated.....

Not necessarily, as the pulse propagates at the speed of light.

>|Andrew Halliwell |Consider how lucky you are that life has been good |

=================================================================
Adam Getchell
acgetchell@*******.edu
http://www.engr.ucdavis.edu/~acgetche/
=================================================================

"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent."
-- Sun Tzu
Message no. 35
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: EPM Grenades?
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 22:04:41 +1100 (EST)
>Table top fusion is just a different term for cold fusion. Fusion without
>having to use a tremendous amount of energy. Large scale would be full
>sized power plants. Did you read 'And So It Came To Pass'? Fusion in SR was
>mentioned in there.

No, table-top fusion is a different term for a type of cold fusion, where
the resulting power plant will literally fit on your table, and probably
power your house. The major foreseeable use for it is as a replacement
for the internal combustion engine.


--
Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 36
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: EPM Grenades?
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 22:04:56 +1100 (EST)
>I know they said they had table top fusion, but only on a large scale.
>Maybe it was mentioned with that. If they do have the super conductors,
>that would change my mind on that part of it.

It's not table-top fusion they've got, it's cold fusion. Only on a large
scale, as you said (city reactor size).


--
* *
/_\ "A friend is someone who likes the same TV programs you do" /_\
{~._.~} "Eternal nothingness is fine if you happen {~._.~}
( Y ) to be dressed for it." -- Woody Allen ( Y )
()~*~() Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au ()~*~()
(_)-(_) (_)-(_)
Message no. 37
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: EPM Grenades
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 22:26:51 +1100 (EST)
>|Cyberware uses sheilded fiber optics, and therefore can't be affected. [by
>|EMP]
>Where does it say that? Under the critter power Electrical Projection it
>says that cyberware can be affected by EMP. And I don't think I've ever
>read that cyberware soley uses fiber optics. I don't mean to nit-pick but I
>think you're operating under a false assumption. And if I'm operating under
>a false assumption I would like to be corrected. Or, it could be another
>case of conflicting rules (shrug).

Electrial Projection is NOT an EMP... it's exactly what it sounds like, a
lightning bolt. The reason it can affect cyber is 'cause it grounds into
you. An EMP that could do that would fry you at the same time, and you'd
probably rather make it use microwaves.


--
Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 38
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: EPM Grenades
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 22:28:26 +1100 (EST)
>Memory is optical, but by the T-bird's power it'd be affected. Go figure.

How do they control the settings of the memory? They flash a light at it.
What powers the light?


--
*************************************************************************
* .--_ # "My opinions may have changed, but not the fact *
* _-0(#)) # that I'm right." -- Old Fortune Saying *
* @__ )/ # *
* )=(===__==,= # Robert Watkins <---> robertdw@*******.com.au *
* {}== \--==--`= # *
* ,_) \ # "A friend is someone who watches the same *
* L_===__)=, # TV programs as you" *
*************************************************************************
Message no. 39
From: neon@******.backbone.olemiss.edu (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: Re: EPM Grenades?
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 08:40:18 -0600
>>I know they said they had table top fusion, but only on a large scale.
>>Maybe it was mentioned with that. If they do have the super conductors,
>>that would change my mind on that part of it.
>
>It's not table-top fusion they've got, it's cold fusion. Only on a large
>scale, as you said (city reactor size).
>
>Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au

Wow, that is exactly what I said. So why did you repeat it?


Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"You only need two things in this world. WD40 to make things go, and
duct tape to make them stop."
Message no. 40
From: neon@******.backbone.olemiss.edu (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: Re: EPM Grenades?
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 08:46:30 -0600
>>Table top fusion is just a different term for cold fusion.
>>
>No, table-top fusion is a different term for a type of cold fusion, where
>the resulting power plant will literally fit on your table, and probably
>power your house. The major foreseeable use for it is as a replacement
>for the internal combustion engine.
>
> Robert Watkins

Don't you love it when people say the exact same thing?
I've got a suggestion to cut down on the number of posts on this list. How
about everyone stop posting comments that just redefine the obvious. The
above statement, and the other one which I replied to basically stated the
same exact thing I said, but with very minor and totally insignifcant
clarifications. If people would stop being anal retentive about how exact
things fragging are, then the board could stopped being cluttered up on this
board, and we could actually discuss facets of SR, and not "what exactly is
cold fusion and how exactly was the term used incorrectly in the last post?"
Following my own lead, I will not respond to any replys to this message, and
I suggest no one else does either. If you feel you have something you need
to say to me, please send it direct.


Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"You only need two things in this world. WD40 to make things go, and
duct tape to make them stop."
Message no. 41
From: "St. Jean, Ricky" <stjeanr@*******.CANADOREC.ON.CA>
Subject: Re: EPM Grenades?
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 96 12:01:00 PST
I heard several years ago that the government came up with some device that
will allow them to "ZAP" your computer and scramble all of the information
from as far as 2 km away. Apparently they use some beam that will scramble
the static in your chips and harddrives. Can someone clarify.?

I heard thisfrom a second party who had access to anti terrorist measures.

Ricky
Message no. 42
From: neon@******.backbone.olemiss.edu (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: Re: EPM Grenades?
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 11:20:29 -0600
>I heard several years ago that the government came up with some device that
>will allow them to "ZAP" your computer and scramble all of the information
>from as far as 2 km away. Apparently they use some beam that will scramble
>the static in your chips and harddrives. Can someone clarify.?
>
>I heard thisfrom a second party who had access to anti terrorist measures.
>
>Ricky
>
Sounds like another pararnoid black helicopter theory.

Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"You only need two things in this world. WD40 to make things go, and
duct tape to make them stop."
Message no. 43
From: seb@***.ripco.com (Sebastian Wiers)
Subject: Re: EPM Grenades?
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 11:39:55 -0600 (CST)
>
> |
> |Sebastian Wiers wrote:
> ||
> ||Also, room temp superconductors would not make EMP bombs ipso facto
> ||possible- many supeconductors cannot suppurt srtong magnetic fields.
> |
> |Do you mean that many superconductors cannot be spun into wire to make a
> |magnet, or do you mean that many superconductors cannot be used to create
> |magnetic fields irregardless? If the problem is that many superconductors
> |can't be spun into wire I'll agree with you. But I thought that if you had
> |the right shape (a wire coil) and electricity that you ended up with a
> |magnetic field.
>
> Whenever you put electricity through a conductor a magnetic field is
> produced. There's no escaping electro-magnetism, they're inextricably
> linked.
> I think the point he was trying to make was that punping so much energy into
> the superconductor would cause it to fail *before* the EMP could be built
> up.
>
(seb again)
No, that is not really true. Super conducters are just that, and thier
magnetic fields do not impede the flow of the electicity (indeed, how could
they? Check your vectors). But ALL (repeat) ALL superconducters are only
conditionally so. ÿû Temperature is a well known constraint, but flux density
is another. IE, a superconducter in an overly strong magnetic field is not
any longer a supercondutor. It just so happens this field strength is pretty
low for presentlyÿû known higher temp type suprconductors.

> --
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> | |What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crackin |
> |u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk |the ground beneath a giant bolder, which you can't |
> | |move, with no hope of rescue. |
> |Andrew Halliwell |Consider how lucky you are that life has been good |
> |Principal in:- |to you so far... |
> |Comp Sci & Visual Arts | -The BOOK, Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy. |
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>


--
() _
/\ /) //
/ ) o _, // o // _
/__/__<_(_) o //__<_</_</_
/| />
|/ </
Message no. 44
From: "A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: EPM Grenades?
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 19:08:32 +0000 (GMT)
|>Unfortunately, this would probably be destroyed before the pulse could be
|>generated.....
|
|Not necessarily, as the pulse propagates at the speed of light.

NOt of the superconductor fails before the energy requirement is met.
You have to pump a hell of a lot of power into the superconductor. This
would probably cause it to heat up beyond it's tolerance and the field would
collapse and cause a radio crackle like a lightning bold instead of the
required full power EMP.
--
______________________________________________________________________________
| |What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crackin |
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk |the ground beneath a giant bolder, which you can't |
| |move, with no hope of rescue. |
|Andrew Halliwell |Consider how lucky you are that life has been good |
|Principal in:- |to you so far... |
|Comp Sci & Visual Arts | -The BOOK, Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 45
From: "A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: EPM Grenades?
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 19:12:10 +0000 (GMT)
|
|>Table top fusion is just a different term for cold fusion. Fusion without
|>having to use a tremendous amount of energy. Large scale would be full
|>sized power plants. Did you read 'And So It Came To Pass'? Fusion in SR was
|>mentioned in there.
|
|No, table-top fusion is a different term for a type of cold fusion, where
|the resulting power plant will literally fit on your table, and probably
|power your house. The major foreseeable use for it is as a replacement
|for the internal combustion engine.

Can I hear anyone saying "Oh, Mr Fusion!"
--
______________________________________________________________________________
| |What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crackin |
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk |the ground beneath a giant bolder, which you can't |
| |move, with no hope of rescue. |
|Andrew Halliwell |Consider how lucky you are that life has been good |
|Principal in:- |to you so far... |
|Comp Sci & Visual Arts | -The BOOK, Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 46
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: EPM Grenades?
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 1996 00:15:59 GMT
In message <9601311852.AA13782@******> dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer) writes:
> I could have sworn I read that room temperature superconductors existed in
> SR. Could someone check p. 84 of ShadowTech? I'm at work and don't have my
> books handy, but I do have Sascha's index.

Nope, Shadowtech still puts superconductivity at LOX/LN2 temperatures.

--
"When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him." <R.A. Lafferty>

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 47
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: EPM Grenades
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 1996 00:24:11 GMT
In message <9601312155.AA21114@******> dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer) writes:
> Where does it say that? Under the critter power Electrical Projection it
> says that cyberware can be affected by EMP. And I don't think I've ever
> read that cyberware soley uses fiber optics. I don't mean to nit-pick but I
> think you're operating under a false assumption. And if I'm operating under
> a false assumption I would like to be corrected. Or, it could be another
> case of conflicting rules (shrug).
> -David

There is the problem that most cyberware is shielded inside a conductive
envelope of saline solution - an animated Faraday cage, to wit your body.
Levels of EMP high enough to affect cyberware would wreak havoc on
many other systems at rather greater ranges. Crippling many of the
electrical systems within a kilometre to fry that samurai's wired reflexes
at 100 metre is not going to make you a popular person. And what about
simple systems like pacemakers? EMP is not directional.

And, the equipment to simulate EMP is *huge*. Using superconductors to
replace the magnets helps, but superconductors break down and lose their
zero resistance above certain magnetic fields, limiting what they can
produce. You might get a EMP generator down to the size of a baseball
diamond (instead of the stadium, as it is at present), but certainly not
down to grenade levels.

Finally, you want to carry liquid nitrogen bottles into a firefight?
Your PCs are braver than I am...

--
"When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him." <R.A. Lafferty>

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 48
From: Benjamin <benjamin@*****.com>
Subject: Re: EPM Grenades?
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 15:52:11 PST
>
> I heard several years ago that the government came up with some device that
> will allow them to "ZAP" your computer and scramble all of the information
> from as far as 2 km away. Apparently they use some beam that will scramble
> the static in your chips and harddrives. Can someone clarify.?
>
> I heard thisfrom a second party who had access to anti terrorist measures.
>
> Ricky

Ok. Assume this is true. They can't use it unless they have a line-of-sight to
your computer, as A) They can't be sure that they'll hit your computer and B)
Their might be a car or something in the way that would block the beam.

Most people don't hang their computers from helicopterrs int the sky, so *IF*
it exists, they will have to be in the same room as the computer, and if they
are, why not open it up and steal the components?

Just my 0.02=Y=
--

Shiftboy (aka Benjamin Kercheval)
benjamin@*****.com (NOT whatever happenes to be in the From: line today)

Probably the world's only Weretiger PhysAd

no website


"No, that's not a pie chart. It's just a corn chip that got scanned
into the document."
-5th Wave
Message no. 49
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: EPM Grenades?
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 11:23:54 +0100
Robert Watkins said on 1 Feb 96...

> It's not table-top fusion they've got, it's cold fusion. Only on a large
> scale, as you said (city reactor size).

And such reactors are also used to power very large ships, of
supertanker/aircraft carrier sizes.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Sometimes it feels like )@&*()@&%#68%3*(48@&%
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(----) y?
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Message no. 50
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: EPM Grenades?
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 02:17:29 +1100 (EST)
>Wow, that is exactly what I said. So why did you repeat it?

I hadn't got your post at the time?

In case you hadn't noticed, this isn't in real time... At one point, I've
seen up to ten replies to a message by different people all stating 'bout
the same thing.


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* @__ )/ # *
* )=(===__==,= # Robert Watkins <---> robertdw@*******.com.au *
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Message no. 51
From: neon@******.backbone.olemiss.edu (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: Re: EPM Grenades?
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 09:26:57 -0600
>>Wow, that is exactly what I said. So why did you repeat it?
>
>I hadn't got your post at the time?
>
gee, i presumed you had, since it was tacked on to the end of my message,
like this one is to yours. therefore, you had to have gotten it. but its a
moot point now.

Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"You only need two things in this world. WD40 to make things go, and
duct tape to make them stop."
Message no. 52
From: "St. Jean, Ricky" <stjeanr@*******.CANADOREC.ON.CA>
Subject: Re: EPM Grenades?
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 96 10:12:00 PST
So whether EMP are actually feasable or not, (I believe by 2057 they will
be) what would the game mechanics be?

Ricky
Message no. 53
From: h_laws@**********.utas.edu.au
Subject: Re: EPM Grenades
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 13:58:07 +1000
>Cyberware uses sheilded fiber optics, and therefore can't be affected.

What about the electrical components, there _has_ to be some involved?

> Plus,
>we already discussed making an EMP grenade and it would require far too much
>energy to disrupt electronics. As you asked, there are no superconductors
>that can be used above -148 degrees Celsius.

Not currently there aren't, of course what 10 years ago they were down at
the -260 C level weren't they?

> With this in mind, you couldn't
>contain it long enough towork, if it could at all.
>Example: A calculator placed near the electromagnetic field of hydroelectric
>plant (or any plant) generator, it would be HARD to use, but not impossible.
>Could you imagine what it would require to screw up a vehicle's systems?

Um, I don't think you're right there. For a start the electro-magnetic field
near a hydro plant isn't that big and half the problem is the rapid pulse of
an EMF. The induced current is proportianal to the rate of change in the
magentic field. Hence a slowly varying electromagnetic field 50 or 60 Hz for
a generator is nothing like the problem of a pulse of EM radiation.

> Not
>to mention the astronomical cost! A x1000 would be peanuts compared to the
>actual cost! I think its been shown by most people on this list that it is
>NOT a feasible concept. Maybe in a few more hundred years, but not in fifty.

"Man will never fly",
"transistors may be usable in toys and low fidelity systems"
"640kB is more than anyone will ever need"
_Never_ make the mistake of ruling out anything or setting a date on it.
virtually any advance which is possible comes in much earlier than expected.

****************************************************************************
The Politician's Slogan
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.'
****************************************************************************

Mad Hamish

Hamish Laws
h_laws@**********.sandybay.utas.edu.au

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