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Message no. 1
From: Brett Barnhart <BARNHART@****>
Subject: Essence
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 92 10:00:00 CDT
One thing about essence is that 10 minus the essence of the target
is the target number for healing spells. To me, that is a pretty big minus,
although I like Janne's idea for the test.
QuickTrigger
P.S. I agree, players should be allowed to run whatever kind of character
they like, although this does make it kind of hard on the GM at times. :)
Message no. 2
From: Robert Hayden <rahayden@*****.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU>
Subject: Essence
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 92 16:44:47 CET
A couple of questions on essance.

I have a real problem with the current rules for essance. I have always
seen essance as a representation of the overall health of the central
nervous system, with 6 being perfect health and 0 being completely shorted
out.

Well, my problem is that once you get cyberware installed, you lose the
essance FOREVER.

THe human (metahuman?) body has a tremendous ability to adapt to adverse
conditions. It is my resoning that once you get cyber installed, over a
period of time your body will adapt to it and heal the wounds.

The question is, how do you best represent this healing? Perhaps a
essance return rate of .1 per month or 1 per year?

Look at it this way. I have a cyberarm installed because my old one was
blown off. I take my 1 point essance loss to represent the invasivness of
the surgery. Over the next year or so, the wounds heal and the brain
becomes used to the new limb. After a year, the arm is accepted as part
of the body and the point of essance comes back.

What will this lead to? Well, you COULD suddently design heavily cybered
people who have spent 10+ years getting things attached, but that is the
point, it takes time, and we all know that the average lifespace of rookie
shadowrunners is about 2 fire-fights.

Ok, now for the next question. What if the cyber is installed while the
body is still growing and changing (like at birth or at puberty). The
body at that point is undergoing a TREMENDOUS amount of change and expects
yhis change.

It is my resoning that from about birth to five year, your essance return
rate should be triple, and from roughly 11 to 14 it should be double.

Now, think of what will happen...

As soon as your kid is born, you have a datajack and memory installed.
Perhaps some other headware too. Throw in eyes perhaps. By the time the
kid is old enough to crawl, all of those wounds have healed and the body
thinks they are natural.

*mentally masterbates on these things for a while*

*shudders*

Anyways, the reason I am asking is because I have a character (the main
hero) for my story who is handicapped and heavily uses cybernetics to make
up for what his natural body didn't give him. To the point where he has
something like 12+ points of various cybernetics installed. I'm trying to
rationalize it by saying all of his cyber was done over time....

Comments please?


=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Robert Hayden | Black holes result | My views do not
rahayden@*****.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU | from God dividing the | reflect the views
AQ650@*********.FREENET.EDU | universe by zero | of my employer.
Message no. 3
From: "David M Girardot (Girardot, David)" <GIRARDOT@********>
Subject: Essence
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 92 17:14:23 edt
,

We all talk about the "effects" of low essence ... but let's face it, aside
from the higher targets for healing, there aren't many "effects" at all. I
am seriously, seriously, considering quantifying a sanity system for low
essence types...

Course If I do that then I'll need to go over the "artificially-made-high-for
game-balance-reasons" essence costs -- things like tactical computers...

--David
Message no. 4
From: Chris Siebenmann <cks@********.UTCS.TORONTO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Essence
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 92 18:26:13 -0400
I do not like sanity systems for low essence people, at all. People
who run on cyberware are already hosed compared to the mages in terms
of advancement (that 6 essence is a hard barrier on what you can do);
adding sanity rules is merely hosing them even more.

Besides, who needs rules? Do two things:
- talk to your players about your views on what a low essence person
is like. I suspect that many will play along (all my low essence SR
characters are already somewhat strange).
- have your NPCs react appropriately to them, especially the magically
active ones. Even without looking, they can get the cold shivers
from that .1 essence guy.

In my personal set of rules, I am fairly liberal about regaining
essence if you *remove* cyberware (although it takes time and
roleplaying, and requires the character to have an attitude shift for
major amounts), and completely liberal about 'trading up' cyberware to
alpha or beta levels (in terms of essence). But I still keep the
essence barrier; it's an important limit on how buff starting
cyber-toting characters can be. Consider a tech 4 street samurai
without essence rules...

- cks
Message no. 5
From: 90824840@***.UWPLATT.EDU
Subject: Re: Essence
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 92 17:26:00 CST
--
The way I see the essence thing is that you CANNOT regain essence back
that was lost from cyberware that is STILL in you. Although the rules
say you cannot recover essence ever, I can see essence recovery after
it's outa the system. (Although mages wouldn't recover lost magic points)


-Storm
90824840@***.uwplatt.edu


>>>>(Place nifty quote here...)<<<<
Message no. 6
From: Greet's <KSREC@******>
Subject: Essence....
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 92 16:17:23 -0900
Greet's Chummers
Low Essence...The Effects...I think you could get some Ideas from
Shadowrun #6 "Never Trust An Elf"...Where thay have these hellions that
have .00001 essence (Just a guest.)...I mean these guys are not sane
anymore....Well that my .02Y....
-Ronald Cannon Decker/Mage
Message no. 7
From: "Psuedo-Combat Mage" <KSDKW@******>
Subject: Re: Essence
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 92 23:32:06 -0900
> I have a real problem with the current rules for essance. I have always
> seen essance as a representation of the overall health of the central
> nervous system, with 6 being perfect health and 0 being completely shorted
> out.
>
> Well, my problem is that once you get cyberware installed, you lose the
> essance FOREVER.
>
> The question is, how do you best represent this healing? Perhaps a
> essance return rate of .1 per month or 1 per year?
>
> What will this lead to? Well, you COULD suddently design heavily cybered
> people who have spent 10+ years getting things attached, but that is the
> point, it takes time, and we all know that the average lifespace of rookie
> shadowrunners is about 2 fire-fights.

Deleted a bit

>>>>>[Frag, wouldn't that be nice chummers. I kinda like the idea, but it
has
a few minor flaws. First off there would still have to be some sort of a
limit. Think about it......you got a totally cybered out person....it would
almost be invincable (game balance). Now if it did heal over time what are
you gonna do with magic users (like myself)? Would the magic points lost from
essence be returned over time as well? Then what? It makes the game even
more magic oriented, a magic user would rule hands down. Don't get me wrong
chum, but if you use this system there has to be some limit as to who could use
it, and how far it would be allowed.]<<<<<
--Psuedo <8:16:35/10-5-92>



>>>>>[Watch it you magic punk......you spirit users ain't da cat's meow ya
know.......all yuse guys tink dat ya da best, but cho ain't....we sam's ain't
dat bad.....we can kick some perdy mean butt 2......don't usse ever forget dat
.....EVER]<<<<<
--Scrag <8:20:12/10/5/92>


>>>>>[I rest my case. This is a magic oriented game. More so in the
intel-
igence compartment. Anyone ever meet up with a powerful but extremely stupid
mage? By the way Scrag.....don't threaten me, I know where you live.]>>>>>
--Psuedo <8:25:46/10-5-92>
Message no. 8
From: Robert Hayden <rahayden@*****.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Essence
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 92 17:21:35 CET
On Sun, 4 Oct 1992, Psuedo-Combat Mage wrote:

> >>>>>[Frag, wouldn't that be nice chummers. I kinda like the idea,
but it has
> a few minor flaws. First off there would still have to be some sort of a
> limit. Think about it......you got a totally cybered out person....it would
> almost be invincable (game balance). Now if it did heal over time what are
> you gonna do with magic users (like myself)? Would the magic points lost from
> essence be returned over time as well? Then what? It makes the game even
> more magic oriented, a magic user would rule hands down. Don't get me wrong
> chum, but if you use this system there has to be some limit as to who could us
> it, and how far it would be allowed.]<<<<<
> --Psuedo <8:16:35/10-5-92>
>
>
>
> >>>>>[Watch it you magic punk......you spirit users ain't da cat's
meow ya
> know.......all yuse guys tink dat ya da best, but cho ain't....we sam's ain't
> dat bad.....we can kick some perdy mean butt 2......don't usse ever forget dat
> ....EVER]<<<<<
> --Scrag <8:20:12/10/5/92>
>
>
> >>>>>[I rest my case. This is a magic oriented game. More so in the
intel-
> igence compartment. Anyone ever meet up with a powerful but extremely stupid
> mage? By the way Scrag.....don't threaten me, I know where you
live.]>>>>>
> --Psuedo <8:25:46/10-5-92>
>


Heh, well, I'd look at it this way. Magic is very very touchy, and
exposing magic to tech is like exposing a french poodle to a pool of acid.

My thinking would be that allowing time for essence loss in mages to
return via natural healing woudl restore essence, but the tech is STILL in
there and STILL cancelling out some of the magic.

So now the question is, what if the chrome was removed? Would magic
return (albeit at a low rate?) I'm not sure. My first instinct would be
no, that the astral connections have been utterly severed. But I really
don't know.

Comments?

BTW: If I'm posting too much and pissing everyone off, just let me know.
I'm enjoying these discussions a lot, but I don't want to be annoying. (I
also injured my back at work last week and am stuck at home recuperating
and I'm bored out of my mind.)
Message no. 9
From: "DON'T EXPECT TOO MUCH FROM ME, I'M MALE." <GM1116@********>
Subject: essence
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 92 18:03:00 EDT
Ok, as far as the essence debate goes(yes, I KNOW I'm out of date,
I just got on for the first time in almost a week).
I'm not sure how shadowrun does it, but in cyberpunk the cybernetics
cost EMPATHY. EMPATHY is the way the charector relates to other humans,
and since the average human can't see infra-red, having cybernetic
eyes with infrared cost EMPATHY. Also, they rationalize that the
INREASED electrical activity caused by the cybernetics along the
neural paths will also have some affect on the sanity of the charector.
(All this is rationilization, of course, to keep charectors from having
cybernetic everything installed and changing a nice, gritty, cyberpunk
or shadowpunk campaing into a super-hero campaign! It also fits in nicely
with the Robocop movies, that much cybernetics and you aint human anymore).
Now, using EMPATHY as the base, my idea is as follows, assume loss
of empathy is due to neural damage and alienation from humanity(explain
to players that this is JUST A GM PLOT DEVICE and is not supposed to be
realistic, so they can take their objections and lump them). In this case,
therapy should be availiable to counteract the alienation from humanity.
This therapy should help with some, but not ALL, of the cost(again,
GM PLOT DEVICE). Also, if they get a wacko therapist, or a psychotic one,
or whatever, they could LOSE even more EMPATHY instead of gaining it(maybe
its an experiment to see how far a charector can be pushed before blowing
it). Therapy should be chancy and EXPENSIVE(just like real life). I'd
say half the time nothing even comes of it, mayby 30% of the time it helps,
and 20% of the time the charector gets worse.(or maybe 40% and 10%).
At most, I'd let them regain a third of the points this way.

Next, improved cybernetics can reduce the neural damage, as can EXPENSIVE
surgery, and adaptation over time. Again, no more than a third can be
regained this way.

What's that, your afraid of your party suddenly becoming a cybered up
killing squad if they use these options. NO problem. Don't tell them
they exist(make 'em dig for it, research cutting edge technology for that
01 essence or empathy gain(empathy is lost in .01 of a point). Make them
hunt for a good therapist. Etc, etc.)

later
-wombat
gm1116@********
Message no. 10
From: "Greetings Highlander!" <MKNABUSCH@******.BITNET>
Subject: Essence
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 93 18:24:00 EDT
Just my $.10. Inflation is hitting hard.
Anyway. Did anyone ever wonder why there are 6
essence points? Kinda dumb, unless you think the
body needs at least 40% of its human tissue to
remain in working order. Just a thought.
Harlequin
Message no. 11
From: "Chad S. Mawson" <csm2747@************.EDU>
Subject: Essence
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 93 23:28:09 CST
Essence, my two nuyen worth:

I don't believe it's in a GM's best interests to A) Allow Essence to be regained
B) Allow Cyberware to be removed and allow other Cyberware to fill it in where
th old chrome was removed.
Alpha and Beta 'ware are the only way to allow more 'ware for the Bod.
The way the rules stand now seem to work well for my group. The cost modifiers
given in the Shadowtek even seem to work well too.

Edge
Message no. 12
From: R Andrew Hayden <rahayden@*****.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU>
Subject: Essence
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 93 04:27:31 CET
Ok, the following will have many people gasping at the munchkin appearance
of what I am about to say.

For those of you who know me well, you know damn well that munchkinism is
NOT permitted in my world. Munchkins conviently find themselves squashed
by a falling truck. My world is grim, dirty, and generally not the kind
of place you want to live it. Imagine it the drearyness of Blade Runner
with the sci-fantasy techy feel of Total Recall. It's not a fun place.

Now, on the question of essence. My rules are as follows.

1) Players never know their essence levels. They know they start
with six, but I apply costs of all cyberware to a curve, so sometimes it
costs more, sometimes less. All borderline characters can do is hope they
don't exceed 6.

2) Once a player exceeds 6 points of cyber or other essence loss,
they start slowly going nuts. It might be a simple phobia, or something
drastic like complete sociopathy.

3) Essence is healed at a rate of .1 point per month of game time.
Yes, this means that you could _EVENTUALLY_ exceed 6 points worth of cyber,
but to do that requires much time.

------------------------

"HOLY SHIT, Batman!" I hear you crying into the darkness.

Let me explain. My rationale for what essence is is essentially "the
health of the central nervous system". The more things you add to it, the
more damage you do (lower essence). But, over time, that damage heals as
the body becomes used to the cyberware or whatever. Thus, I apply a
healing rate of .1 per month.

Now, a starting character never gets bonus cyber. Period. They can't
come up to me and say "Hey, I got these six points worth installed five
years ago and now I'm fully healed." I reply with "You munchkin. Heads
up!" But, as game time passes, they could install more as their essence
heals. Of course, taking time out for surgery limits game play.

BUT, this also gives me the opportunity to send the players up against
cyber soldiers, ie. Sams with ten to twelve (once time 15) points of
cyberware. It gives me a rational crutch to introduce powerful NPCs into
the game.

Now, in all the time I ahve been GMing, I've only had two character ever
exceed six points of cyber. One went to seven, the other to 7.4 For
this, it too three years in game time for this to happen

No, I'm not here to defend my rules on this. This is simply how I play it
and all of the players I've had found it a refreshing twist and way to
play. Never did I have a complaint.

Coments are welcome, flames will be giggled at.

[> Robert Hayden <] [> ____ Come out, Come out <]
[> <] [> \ /__ Wherever you are! <]
[> rahayden@*****.weeg.uiowa.edu <] [> \/ /
[> aq650@****.INS.CWRU.Edu <] [> \/
Message no. 13
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@******.COE.NORTHEASTERN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Essence
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 93 06:34:01 CET
>>>>> On Thu, 25 Feb 93 04:27:31 CET, R Andrew Hayden
>>>>> <rahayden@*****.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU> said:

R> Let me explain. My rationale for what essence is is essentially "the
R> health of the central nervous system". The more things you add to it,
R> the more damage you do (lower essence). But, over time, that damage
R> heals as the body becomes used to the cyberware or whatever. Thus, I
R> apply a healing rate of .1 per month.

The only flaw in your rationalle is that nerve tissue doesn't heal; once
injured that's it. For several examples: spinal injuries never heal.
Traumatic brain damage never heals--neither does chemical damage to the
brain. The sliver of skin off my index finger that I cut off with a
linoleum knife 10 years ago has absolutely no sensation even though the
flesh has grown back.

Now, under the medical treatment of 2050 it may be possible to force the
regeneration of nerve tissue. So anyone who wants that healing should be
paying a physician, for pharmaceuticals, etc.

But that aside, it does give Samurai a certain amount of growth potential.

--Rat PGP Public Key Block available upon request
||||| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |||||
Northeastern's Stainless Steel Rat ratinox@******.coe.northeastern.edu
And now we meet again, for the first time, for the last time. --Dark Helmet
Message no. 14
From: steven mancini <mancinis@******.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Essence
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 93 19:43:02 EST
To quote Greetings Highlander!:
] Just my $.10. Inflation is hitting hard.
] Anyway. Did anyone ever wonder why there are 6
] essence points? Kinda dumb, unless you think the
] body needs at least 40% of its human tissue to
] remain in working order. Just a thought.
] Harlequin
]
Actually you signature leads me to my on link. In my game
I have created a Ressurrection Spell. It can only be cast
using Ritual Sorcery, requires 6 individuals of the same
tradition/totem.

It is based off the 6 parts to the Chal-han challenge in
the FASA module aptly named... Harlequin. Perhaps their
is soemthing mystic about the number six. Since alot of
the magic from SR is based on ancient cultures- totems,
Myan Calendar, etc.. there is something about the number
six....

But then again... Tom Dowd could be a loon and selected
the number arbitrarily... :)

-Minotaur


+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+
| Steve Mancini | mancinis@******.cc.purdue.edu |
| Grad Student {Dazed & Confused} | mancinis@**.cc.purdue.edu |
| Political Science Department | phi@****.cc.purdue.edu |
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
| "My Behaviour is Addictive Functioning in a Disease Process of Toxic |
| Co-dependency! I need holistic healing and Wellness before I'll |
| accept responsibility for my actions!" -Calvin, 1/21/93 |
+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+
Message no. 15
From: The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject: Essence
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1993 17:53:47 -0500
>>People who have lost essence through paranormal Essence Drain, Drug
>>Abuse, and severe trauma may regain essence. Also persons
>>who have had cyberware REMOVED and NOT replaced may regain essence,
>>BUT they do so at a slower rate (natural rate is 0.01 per 6 months).

>What about if it's REMOVED and replace with something that cost LESS essence?
>Like upgrading from standard to Alphaware.

Why should someone who lost Essence due to trauma or Essence Drain be subject
to the 90% rule? Nightstalker used the example of nerve damage, which I
agree with, but I don't think some poor slob who gets nipped by a vampire
should be limited. I CAN think of numerous explanations; I just don't
believe someone who lost Essence due to something besides cyberware should
be thus limited.

>Why is it slower for points lost to cyberware as opposed to other causes?

My first inclination was to let Todd field this, but I think it's because
he believes cyber-induced Essence loss is more traumatic and takes longer
to heal. I think if you let people regain their maximum Essence EXCEPT when
caused by cyberware and you establish a uniform rate, the distinction is kept
without upsetting balance.

>Why is Naturpathic Treatment more efficient than Homeopathic? They both are
>just control of diet and use of natural susbstances.

Again, it's Todd's system, but my assumption/clarification would be to
distinguish between natural/New Age type healing and clinical treatment
with drugs that are processed or artificial. I would then argue that
"nature's way" would be more efficient than all those nasty biofeedback
machines and chemicals, no matter how benign.

>If you pump the subject up with drugs, than controling his diet is useless.

Not neccessarily. You control his diet in relation to his altered metabolism.
Food is just another way of ingesting certain chemicals that the body uses.


J Roberson
Back at Midnight
Message no. 16
From: Todd Montgomery <tmont@****.WVU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Essence
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1993 21:40:39 -0400
From Todd, Then Jason, Then J Roberson:
> >>People who have lost essence through paranormal Essence Drain, Drug
> >>Abuse, and severe trauma may regain essence. Also persons
> >>who have had cyberware REMOVED and NOT replaced may regain essence,
> >>BUT they do so at a slower rate (natural rate is 0.01 per 6 months).
>
> >What about if it's REMOVED and replace with something that cost LESS essence?
> >Like upgrading from standard to Alphaware.

That is fine. The above should have read any essence not actively
being taken up by cyberware. Upgrades were a prime reason for this
post.

>
> Why should someone who lost Essence due to trauma or Essence Drain be subject
> to the 90% rule? Nightstalker used the example of nerve damage, which I
> agree with, but I don't think some poor slob who gets nipped by a vampire
> should be limited. I CAN think of numerous explanations; I just don't
> believe someone who lost Essence due to something besides cyberware should
> be thus limited.
>

How about this? Except cyberware, above 90% only Natural rates apply.
AND at only half of the normal rate. Making it more or less a constant
or ungoing battle to get back to 100%.

> >Why is it slower for points lost to cyberware as opposed to other causes?
>
> My first inclination was to let Todd field this, but I think it's because
> he believes cyber-induced Essence loss is more traumatic and takes longer
> to heal. I think if you let people regain their maximum Essence EXCEPT when
> caused by cyberware and you establish a uniform rate, the distinction is kept
> without upsetting balance.
>

Feel free to comment. Field away.
And you are correct in your thoughts.

> >Why is Naturpathic Treatment more efficient than Homeopathic? They both are
> >just control of diet and use of natural susbstances.
>
> Again, it's Todd's system, but my assumption/clarification would be to
> distinguish between natural/New Age type healing and clinical treatment
> with drugs that are processed or artificial. I would then argue that
> "nature's way" would be more efficient than all those nasty biofeedback
> machines and chemicals, no matter how benign.
>

Homeopathic uses Diet and Homeopathic sources (acids, etc.) Were as
Naturapthic uses Diet and Natural sources (old time home remedies).
The homeopathic is not quite the augmented chemical death usually served
but it does use it when required. The Naturapthic uses purely natural
substances and IMO is more efficient and better. (I admit my prejudice
and my shame!)

> >If you pump the subject up with drugs, than controling his diet is useless.
>
> Not neccessarily. You control his diet in relation to his altered metabolism.
> Food is just another way of ingesting certain chemicals that the body uses.
>
>

And it is another save by the J-Miester. I concur.

Nightstalker, It is my feeling that the mind is a powerful tool for
healing one's self. That is why I included the Meditation treatment.
(Another prejudice, I am so ashamed!!)

-- Quiktek
-- Todd Montgomery
tmont@****.wvu.edu
tmont@***.wvu.edu
un032507@*******.wvnet.edu
Message no. 17
From: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Essence
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1993 13:32:19 -0700
I don't see why anyone should be able to get back all of the essence they lose.
We are talking about damage to the central nervous system here. This is hard
stuff to repair. Few people ever regain complete control of body parts where
the nerves have been damaged. The 90% rule was something that made sense.

If the entire point of Naturpathic and Homeopathic Treatment are to create an
ideal chemical state for healing through the use of natural substances I can't
see how this can be accomplished at the same time as the patient is taking
artificail (manufactured) drugs.

Lastly, Todd, writers should try their best to keep their personal prejudices
out of their rules :)

See Ya in Shadows,
Jason J Carter
The Nightstalker
Message no. 18
From: Todd Montgomery <tmont@****.WVU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Essence
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1993 10:08:37 -0400
From Nightstalker:
> If the entire point of Naturpathic and Homeopathic Treatment are to create an
> ideal chemical state for healing through the use of natural substances I can't
> see how this can be accomplished at the same time as the patient is taking
> artificail (manufactured) drugs.
>

Actually as I understand it they can and sometimes are used in conjunction.
Now I am not a Doctor, they can't agree on these treatments either, but
the Naturapathic and Homeopathic treatments, as I understand it, _usually_
are used for two different kinds of problems. Most people turn to these
treatments as a last resort after the other drugs and heavy stuff doesn't
work. While the patient is still having ongoing treatment with drugs but no
results. Or so this is what I have heard and seen on Discovery. Maybe a
little bias in itself. (The nature, tree-hugging, frog-kissing stuff)

> Lastly, Todd, writers should try their best to keep their personal prejudices
> out of their rules :)
>

I know. I am so ashamed. But the doctors can't decide, so it ain't that bad.
(The real Doctors, members of the AMA of today) So someone has to make
a decision.

-- Quiktek
-- Todd Montgomery
tmont@****.wvu.edu
tmont@***.wvu.edu
un032507@*******.wvnet.edu
Message no. 19
From: Info Static <RMD57285@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject: Essence
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1993 03:27:16 -0600
This idea started clanging about in the partal vaccuum contained within
the volume of my skull and so here it is.......
Now, first off I do believe the Black book says this cannot be done, but
I do not have it with me and I do not remember (selective memory can be
such a blessing).

The human body tends to be rather resilant and can do many wonderful and
befuddling things under normal and strange circumstances.
Now lets say that over time crome would become part and parcal of one's
body (it did cost essence) and rejuvinates from the shock of the istilation
of said crome. Therefore one's essence rebounds, but not fully (don't want
to totally destroy game balance {as if my PCs don't do that already}).

Ok, lets hinge the rebound of essence on karma in some way. Maybe total
karma earned or a PC must save and spend karma to raise his\her essence.
Say One hundred (or two, five hndrd or even into the thousands) total karma
earned equals one point in essence rebound. Or, X# of karma multiplied by
X# must be saved and spent (as in skills, attributes) for a essence point.

Now to restore some game balance; lets say that there is a permanent loss
of say ten\twenty\fifty percent. { Sam the Strt Sam gets 2.5 essence points
worth of crome dropping his\her essence to 3.5. Permanent loss is twenty
percent, so his\her essence can now be raised no higher than 5.5. And to
raise his\her essence to said level s\he must live long enough to earn/save
X amount of karma } Permanent loss is accumilative. { Sam the Strt Sam
has not raised his essence any and gets 1 essence point more crome. Total
essence spent - 3.5; permanent loss - 0.7; max essence rating - 5.3. }

Percentage of permanent loss is ajustable and the way rebound is tied to
karma and amount of karma needed is also ajustable.
{ Sam gets 2.5 ess of crome perm loss (fifty percent) 1.25; before rebound
gets 1 ess more crome, perm loss .5. Total perm loss 1.75; max ess rating
4.25. }

This is just a thought derived from mental boredom (not much higher brain
activity required to swab a toilet). And would, of course, by useful in
long games of modrate lethality.

Info Static ( will now go home, take two nerps go to bed and in the morning
( will don a face shield before reading his digest

**** Fixer's Axion ****
**** When all else fails, read the instructions. ****
Message no. 20
From: Phil Hayward <Philip.Hayward@***.UK>
Subject: Essence
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 10:58:22 GMT
Hi, all

I'm new to shadowrun, so this might seem obvious:

Can you regain essence lost by having cyberware?
By either removing the cyberware or downgrading to
a lower rating which has a lower loss in essence?

Also, has anyone got any suggestions for good
sourcebooks or adventures suitable for beginners?

Phil
Message no. 21
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Essence
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 09:54:41 -0500
>>>>> "Phil" == Phil Hayward <Philip.Hayward@***.UK>
writes:

Phil> Can you regain essence lost by having cyberware?

In essence (heh:) no. When you remove cyberwear, you leave a ``hole'' of
sorts. That hole can be filled with new cyber of similar or lesser Essence
cost, but you can never regain lost essence.

For example, you have Wired Reflexes 1 (I think the Essence cost is 1),
then have them removed. Your essence total is 5, and you can never get that
lost Essence back. You then decided to have Wired Reflexes 2 installed (I
think the Essence cost is 3?), your total Essence is now 3, the new cyber
filling in the ``hole'' left by the old cyber.

This is detailed in the Street Samurai Catalog somewhere.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core,
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | which, if exposed due to rupture, should
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! | not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.
Message no. 22
From: wadycki andrew m <wadycki@***.CSO.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Essence
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 11:21:55 -0600
On Fri, 9 Dec 1994, Phil Hayward wrote:

> Hi, all
>
> I'm new to shadowrun, so this might seem obvious:
>
> Can you regain essence lost by having cyberware?
> By either removing the cyberware or downgrading to
> a lower rating which has a lower loss in essence?
>

If you regrow the area, then you can regain the essence, such as replace
your cybereyes with organic ones. If you replace your cyberware, with a
less essence version, then you get a essence slot. You don't regain it,
but if you put something else in you will use up the extra first.


> Also, has anyone got any suggestions for good
> sourcebooks or adventures suitable for beginners?
>

Depends what you are interested in. A good number of the adventures are
first edition and have to be converted. I have run a few, Mercurial
seemed fun. Harlequin is interesting. The Seatle Sourcebook is always a
good sourcebook to start with.

-Andrew
Message no. 23
From: Gurth <gurth@***.NL>
Subject: Re: Essence
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 20:43:37 +0100
> I'm new to shadowrun, so this might seem obvious:
>
> Can you regain essence lost by having cyberware?
> By either removing the cyberware or downgrading to
> a lower rating which has a lower loss in essence?

Nope, you can't. If you remove cyberware you end up with a "hole" of
Essence. For instance, if you buy a cyberarm (1 point Essence) and then have
it removed, you still have Essence 5, not 6. But, if you later buy new
cyberware the Essence cost is first substracted from the "hole:" if that
same person were to buy Wired Reflexes level 1 (Essence cost 2), he would
have an Essence of 4 (6-2), not 3.

Under published FASA rules, there is no way to regain Essence, but I think
NERPS: ShadowLore has essence-regaining treatments.

> Also, has anyone got any suggestions for good
> sourcebooks or adventures suitable for beginners?

Hmmm. For sourcebooks, it depends on the kind of characters you have: the
Grimoire II is IMHO very necessary for the magically-active; Shadowtech for
samurai and anyone else with an interest in implants; Street Sam catalog for
everyone (though you have the stats of almost everything in the back of the
SRII rulebook); Virtual Realities for deckers (though I both personally and
as a GM don't like the decking rules). Most FASA-published adventures would
be suitable, I think, except for the ones like Harlequin and that one that's
set in Ireland (can't remember the name).
Gurth@***.nl
Backup not found: |GEEK CODE v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g P?(3) !au !a>?
(A)bort |w+(+++)y v*(---) C+(++) U P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po)
(R)etry |Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++) B? e+ u+@ h!
(P)anic |f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y?
Message no. 24
From: Lucifer <MFISHER@*****.VINU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Essence
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 15:07:21 EST
Phil Hayward wrote:
> Hi, all
>
> I'm new to shadowrun, so this might seem obvious:
>
> Can you regain essence lost by having cyberware?
> By either removing the cyberware or downgrading to
> a lower rating which has a lower loss in essence?
NO! No, no, no! :-) Essence is your soul. By having cyberware
implanted you trade away a bit of your soul so you can be faster,
stronger, etc... Once that piece of your soul is gone it cannot be
regained. However, if you have cyberware removed you have an
essence "gap." for example: If Bobo the Ork has wired 3 and has it
removed and replaced with wired 2, he has a 2 point essence gap. He
can get 2 more essence points worth of cyberware without suffering
further essence loss. However, once that gap is breached...

> Also, has anyone got any suggestions for good
> sourcebooks or adventures suitable for beginners?

ShadowTech, FoF, SSC, Grim, are all good source books. As far as
adventures; I've always found those you make yourself are usually
the best.



It's not Death if you refuse it, it is if you accept it.
Lucifer
Prince of Darkness, Eater of Souls

"One owes respect to the living, to the Dead one owes
only truth." Voltaire
Message no. 25
From: Andrew <wadycki@***.CSO.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Essence
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 15:19:51 -0600
On Fri, 9 Dec 1994, Gurth wrote:

>
> Under published FASA rules, there is no way to regain Essence, but I think
> NERPS: ShadowLore has essence-regaining treatments.
>

Tom Dowd mentioned at Gen Con that if you regrew the area then perhaps
you would regain essence.

-Andrew
Message no. 26
From: Andrew <wadycki@***.CSO.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Essence
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 15:23:00 -0600
On Fri, 9 Dec 1994, Lucifer wrote:

> Phil Hayward wrote:
> > Hi, all
> >
> > I'm new to shadowrun, so this might seem obvious:
> >
> > Can you regain essence lost by having cyberware?
> > By either removing the cyberware or downgrading to
> > a lower rating which has a lower loss in essence?
> NO! No, no, no! :-) Essence is your soul. By having cyberware
> implanted you trade away a bit of your soul so you can be faster,
> stronger, etc... Once that piece of your soul is gone it cannot be
> regained. However, if you have cyberware removed you have an
> essence "gap." for example: If Bobo the Ork has wired 3 and has it
> removed and replaced with wired 2, he has a 2 point essence gap. He
> can get 2 more essence points worth of cyberware without suffering
> further essence loss. However, once that gap is breached...
>

Actually there is another theory where the essence lose comes from the
difference in your astral template and what you really are. Check out
Tir Na Nog for this theory.

-Andrew
Message no. 27
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Essence
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 16:42:34 -0500
On Fri, 9 Dec 1994, Andrew wrote:

> Tom Dowd mentioned at Gen Con that if you regrew the area then perhaps
> you would regain essence.

This is the way we've always played it. The exception is neural
tissue, which generally can not be regrown. It seems to work well, too.
Genetic treatments and vat regrowths are expensive and rare. Not to
mention the fact that they cost a lot and are hard to get! ;)

Marc
Message no. 28
From: OBLIO LEITCH <OLEITCH@*****.VTC.VSC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Essence
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 1994 10:01:33 EST
Realizing this is a Shadowrun mailing list, he takes his chances:

If any of you have ever played Vampire, The Masqurade, then you
may have a firmer grip on what Essence means. With Vampires,
Humanity is how human you are. Essence is the same idea. The less
Essence the less human. (yeah, I know, Vampires can gain more
humanity, but that is just the system) Another similar
characteristic can be found in Cyberpunk. But all things considered,
what ever you relate it too, it really is just a game machanic
designed to add a degree of limitation.
Message no. 29
From: Malcalypse The Younger <shadow@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Essence
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 1994 10:17:35 -0500
On Fri, 9 Dec 1994, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

> >>>>> "Phil" == Phil Hayward <Philip.Hayward@***.UK>
writes:
>
> Phil> Can you regain essence lost by having cyberware?
>
> In essence (heh:) no. When you remove cyberwear, you leave a ``hole'' of
> sorts. That hole can be filled with new cyber of similar or lesser Essence
> cost, but you can never regain lost essence.
>
> For example, you have Wired Reflexes 1 (I think the Essence cost is 1),
> then have them removed. Your essence total is 5, and you can never get that
> lost Essence back. You then decided to have Wired Reflexes 2 installed (I
> think the Essence cost is 3?), your total Essence is now 3, the new cyber
> filling in the ``hole'' left by the old cyber.
>
I wonder why this is. You can get vat-grown tissue based on your DNA.
So why NOT be able to re-gain that lost essence? Perhaps with some sort
of ritual to synch the 'new' aura to the existing one, if that is, indeed
the basis of essence... Hm.

Shadow
Message no. 30
From: Shadowdancer <BRIDDLE@*****.VINU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Essence
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 1994 15:44:48 EST
Phil writes:

> Hi, all
>
> I'm new to shadowrun, so this might seem obvious:
>
> Can you regain essence lost by having cyberware?
> By either removing the cyberware or downgrading to
> a lower rating which has a lower loss in essence?
>
SS Rat already answered this one. But my question. In the SSC, it
gives the rules for upgrading cyberware. In the table in the back, it
says if the doctor rolls high-enough, the patient gains +xx% of what?
Essence? If it is essence, how is this possible?

> Also, has anyone got any suggestions for good
> sourcebooks or adventures suitable for beginners?
>
Adventure: Total Eclipse You win when you kill the bad guy, no ifs,
ands, or buts. I personally made it deadlier. :-) Sourcebooks? SSC,
RBB, VR, and the Grimmything. Just do not use the optional rules
until you get used to the actual ones. :-)


Many people fear Death, saying it is the bitter end.
I say Death is just lonely, crying out for a friend.

-Shadowdancer- <briddle@*****.vinu.edu>
Message no. 31
From: Shadowdancer <BRIDDLE@*****.VINU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Essence
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 1994 15:56:07 EST
Andrew writes:

> Actually there is another theory where the essence lose comes from
the
> difference in your astral template and what you really are. Check
out
> Tir Na Nog for this theory.
>
> -Andrew
>
This is how we play it, essence equals your soul and will to live.
This is how it was explained to me when we first started SR. And I do
not trust those Path following, pointed ear, human hating, weed-eaters
anyway. (Ulster is cool though.)


Many people fear Death, saying it is the bitter end.
I say Death is just lonely, crying out for a friend.

-Shadowdancer- <briddle@*****.vinu.edu>
Message no. 32
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Essence
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 1994 20:10:58 -0500
>>>>> "OBLIO" == OBLIO LEITCH <OLEITCH@*****.VTC.VSC.EDU>
writes:

OBLIO> If any of you have ever played Vampire, The Masqurade, then you may
OBLIO> have a firmer grip on what Essence means. With Vampires, Humanity
OBLIO> is how human you are. Essence is the same idea.

No, it's not. Not even close.

Essence is the force of your aura, spirit, astral body, whatever. The
stronger your Essence, the greater your spirit's desire to live (or
whatever). When your Essence becomes too weak (drops below 0) it ``gives up
the ghost'' and you die, it dies, etc. Because of the the sympathetic
nature of magic and what-not, when you damage the meat body you also damage
the astral body, and vice versa. That's why when you add cyberwear your
Essence drops, and why an astrally projecting mage's meat body shows the
damage of an astral combat.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox |
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |
Message no. 33
From: Gurth <gurth@***.NL>
Subject: Re: Essence
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 1994 12:08:22 +0100
>SS Rat already answered this one. But my question. In the SSC, it
>gives the rules for upgrading cyberware. In the table in the back, it
>says if the doctor rolls high-enough, the patient gains +xx% of what?
>Essence? If it is essence, how is this possible?

I don't think the patient _gains_ essence, but instead _loses_ more if the
surgeon doesn't roll enough successes. Maybe it represents the fact that the
doc isn't always as tidy as he could be: removing more than just the
cyberware, that sort of thing.

Gurth@***.nl
Backup not found: |GEEK CODE v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g P?(3) !au !a>?
(A)bort |w+(+++)y v*(---) C+(++) U P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po)
(R)etry |Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++) B? e+ u+@ h!
(P)anic |f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y?
Message no. 34
From: The GREAT Cornholio <mruane@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Essence
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 1994 16:51:15 -0700
On Sat, 10 Dec 1994, Shadowdancer wrote:

> SS Rat already answered this one. But my question. In the SSC, it
> gives the rules for upgrading cyberware. In the table in the back, it
> says if the doctor rolls high-enough, the patient gains +xx% of what?
> Essence? If it is essence, how is this possible?
OK, I've got SSC in front of me and here's my take:

The docotr doing the upgrading of the cyberware must make a biotech test
to see if he pulled it off. His target number is 10-base essence after
surgery. If the doctor is God and rolls 4+ successes, then the essence
is not base but base-20% of the base, or for us math-inclined types, .8 *
base essence. For example, say I wanted to get my wired 2 ripped out and
have wried 3 shoved into my body, I'd go to my street doc and say,
"Replace my cyberware according to the optional rules in the back of the
SSC." He'd operate. Since my street doc is a real doctor (SINs can
help), his biotech rating is 7. My new essence will be 1 (6-5) so I'm
hoping my doc is good enough to reduce some of the essence cost. He
needs to roll 9's.

Because I'm lucky, my doctor rolls 4 successes. It really costs me (5 *
.8 = 4) 4 essence points, so my new essence is 2. And yes, if my essence
was, say 1.5 before, it is improved because of vat grown parts and my
body is mor eback to its natural state. However, essence may return, but
magic does not. Once it's gone, it's gone, baby!

Because I'm unlucky, my doctor rolls 1 success. It really costs me (5 *
1.1 = 5.5) 5.5 essence points. If my essence was not good enough beofre
(say it was a 5), then cyber pychosis (or death) sets in. sorry. Come
back soon!

Mike, TGC
Message no. 35
From: John Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Essence
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 1994 11:12:27 +0100
> I wonder why this is. You can get vat-grown tissue based on your DNA.
> So why NOT be able to re-gain that lost essence? Perhaps with some sort
> of ritual to synch the 'new' aura to the existing one, if that is, indeed
> the basis of essence... Hm.

According to our interpretation of the rules you can regain lost essence
by removing the cyberware AND recloning the missing organs from samples of
your DNA. This proccess is extremely costly and time consuming.

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d>- H s+: !g p? !au a- w+ v-(?) C+++ UA++S++L+>++++ P-- (aren't we all?)
L+>+++ 3 E--- N+ K W(+)(---) M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5+ !j(-) R+++(--)
!G tv(++) b++ D+ B- e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(----) y?
Message no. 36
From: "Thomas W. Craig" <Craigtw1@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Essence
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 1994 19:10:07 -0500
Essence to me is the lifeforce within a person, Magic is the ablility of a
magician to manipulate his own lifeforce and the lifeforces around him.
Karma is the person's luck and experience. When a character is injured
he/she loses lifeforce, but it is not taken off of the Essence rating of the
character. That same character loses an amount of lifeforce, permanently,
when he/she gets cyberware. That lost lifeforce can be regenerated when the
character replaces the cyberware with a bioware equivalent.
Tom Craig
Message no. 37
From: Claudio - CAESB <claudio@****.UCB.BR>
Subject: Essence
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 15:17:21 -0200
Hello guys! I am new here so please excuse-me if my questions
seem stupid. Is there any rules concerning essence? On the basic set
not much is specified about essence loss. I would like to know how does a
guy with 2.3 of essence rating behaves like. Does a guy with 5.0 acts
like a normal person or does it show signes of psycopathic behavior?


[]
Pedro Calmon
Message no. 38
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Essence
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 15:00:44 -0400
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>>>>> "C" == Claudio <- CAESB <claudio@****.UCB.BR>>
writes:

C> Is there any rules concerning essence?

Essence has little or no bearing on a person's psychological profile.

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--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! \ returned to its special container and
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox/ \ kept under refrigeration.
Message no. 39
From: Ingmar Krusch <fastjack@******.ET-INF.FHO-EMDEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Essence
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 19:52:40 +0100
>
> Hello guys! I am new here so please excuse-me if my questions
> seem stupid. Is there any rules concerning essence? On the basic set
> not much is specified about essence loss. I would like to know how does a
> guy with 2.3 of essence rating behaves like. Does a guy with 5.0 acts
> like a normal person or does it show signes of psycopathic behavior?
>
>
> Pedro Calmon

Welcome !

Even though I'm quite new to this list myself, Im trying to
answer your 'newbie' ;) question :
according to Cybertechnilogie, cyber seperates the soul/mind/will/aura,
whatever you call it, from your body and if enough essence is lost (6 or
more) you die (!). Even tough I can't pinpoint it, I think it says somewhere,
probably even first edition rules, that with extreme loss of essence, you
get depressed, quirky, suicidal, shizophrenic (spelling?),get the willies etc.
Heavily cybered guys should generally played like they are some sort of
insane in the brain (more or less ;). Further more, think of the secondary
effects of cyber. eg. the reflexbooster. you can't stopp reflexes and if
someone in your back sneezes.... BOOOM ! But don't exaggerate (spelling?)
it too much. Use it to !roleplay! a charakter!

Salve

Ingmar

--


*******************************************************************************

If you did it and you're still alive,
you've probably done it right !

-J. K. W., freelancer

*******************************************************************************
Message no. 40
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Essence
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 23:23:46 GMT
> Hello guys! I am new here so please excuse-me if my questions
> seem stupid. Is there any rules concerning essence? On the basic set
> not much is specified about essence loss. I would like to know how does a
> guy with 2.3 of essence rating behaves like. Does a guy with 5.0 acts
> like a normal person or does it show signes of psycopathic behavior?

Varies from group to group. The only hard statement in SRII is that
zero Essence is hard: "Even 0 Essence is tough to handle, promoting despair
and melancholy. Folks of such low essence walk the thin edge of sanity."

Now, you can read that as saying someone with a datajack just lurched a
little nearer to psychosis. Or you can say that down to 0.05 Essence you're
as sane or insane as you ever were, but zero Essence is the kicker.

This is a subject which many people argue a great deal about. I prefer to
let the character's background be the dominant fact: given the awful things
that some PCs have had happen to them, low Essence is the least of their
worries. They tend to have their own defined personalities anyway: I had
an Essence 6 character who was completely crazy, yet an Essence 0.55 merc
who was calm, relaxed and confident. In character both.

I would also be wary of imposing psychopathic behaviour on heavily wired
PCs :) A friend was bluntly told by the GM that his (Essence 1.2)
samurai should be more unstable and psychotic. Rob proceeded to add
a dash of homicidal mania to Dove's personality, which got her killed in
short order. Rob was justifiably angry, since the GM told him that Dove
had been stupidly aggressive. "But you told me I had to play her more
psychotic!"

Not that some heavily wired characters *need* psychopathic behaviour
imposed on them...

--
"When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him." <R.A. Lafferty>

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 41
From: Cugel <cugel@**.NET>
Subject: Re: Essence
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 1995 23:00:55 +01.0
On 27 Oct 95 at 15:17, Claudio - CAESB wrote:

> Hello guys! I am new here so please excuse-me if my questions
> seem stupid. Is there any rules concerning essence? On the basic set
> not much is specified about essence loss. I would like to know how
> does a guy with 2.3 of essence rating behaves like. Does a guy with
> 5.0 acts like a normal person or does it show signes of psycopathic
> behavior?

Yippie, Yes, the cyberpsychosis debate again! Yes, I could do with it
after the grounding debate! I can see it happening again: everyone
gets their replies from three months ago ready and uses them again.
Fun, fun, fun!
Next week: Magic(k), real or unreal?
...
Ahem, okay, I'm normal again :)

First of all welcome to the list!
Forgive me my sarcasm, but this is one of the Please-not-again-
subjects. Shadowrun has NO cyberpsychosis. Full stop.
(wasn't there something about this in the FAQ?... Damn, these things
are always gone when you need them.... )

Martin Steffens (Cugel@**.net)
When you can flatten entire cities at a whim, a tendency towards quiet
reflection and seeing-things-from-the-other-fellow's-point-of-view is
seldom necessary. -- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)
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Message no. 42
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Essence
Date: Sun, 29 Oct 1995 10:50:10 +0100
Claudio - CAESB said on 27 Oct 95...

> Hello guys! I am new here so please excuse-me if my questions
> seem stupid. Is there any rules concerning essence? On the basic set not
> much is specified about essence loss. I would like to know how does a guy
> with 2.3 of essence rating behaves like. Does a guy with 5.0 acts like a
> normal person or does it show signes of psycopathic behavior?

Cyberpsychosis take 329... (at least if you count on since the last two
times :)

I'll say this out loud: CYBERPSYCHOSIS DOES NOT EXIST IN SHADOWRUN AND
IT IS DOUBTFUL WHETHER IT WOULD EXIST IN REAL LIFE OR NOT. Just to make
sure everybody hears it...

Sorry, this isn't a flame just someone who's tired of hearing that
question from 50% of everyone who's a new subscriber to this list...
Cyberpsychosis (because that _is_ what you're asking) was invented by
Talsorian as a game balance mechanic (or so Rat keeps telling us :), and
has nothing to do with SR whatsoever.

What _is_ a problem is other peoples' reaction to your heavily cybered
character, instead of your reaction to the rest of the world. And that
depends on the situation and the person you're interacting with.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Those dreaded Wednesdays and Saturdays, also known as shower days
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

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Message no. 43
From: Grunion <mrgone@*********.COM>
Subject: essence
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 13:34:02 -0700
All this talk about headware memory and how the brain is more sensitive
to intrusion and..yada yada yada
got me thinking. Instead of having a single "essence" number, why not
designate the maximum cyber the
various regions of the body can handle, say, a point value, then split
cyber into different groups, based
on which region they would be implanted in, and give them a numerical
rating that is a certain percentage
of the region.

Any ideas/thought?

-Grunion
--
"You said you were the king of liars,
And I believed you and called you sire,
But now I realize that I have been deceived."
-They Might Be Giants
Message no. 44
From: Tomus Cone <brother_1@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: essence
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 13:43:39 PDT
>why not designate the maximum cyber the
>various regions of the body can handle, say, a point value, then split
>cyber into different groups, based
>on which region they would be implanted in, and give them a numerical
>rating that is a certain percentage
>of the region.
>
> Any ideas/thought?

What about bone lacing?

>
>-Grunion


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Message no. 45
From: Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject: Re: essence
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 16:44:52 -0400
Grunion wrote:
>
> All this talk about headware memory and how the brain is more sensitive
> to intrusion and..yada yada yada
> got me thinking. Instead of having a single "essence" number, why not
> designate the maximum cyber the
> various regions of the body can handle, say, a point value, then split
> cyber into different groups, based
> on which region they would be implanted in, and give them a numerical
> rating that is a certain percentage
> of the region.

Go ahead! Sounds all sorts of complicated to me, though, and you'd probably
limit the flexibility of the Essence rules rather than extending them. And
what would you do with full-body cyber, such as wired reflexes?


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley
sfeley@***.net
Message no. 46
From: Jett <zmjett@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: essence
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 19:09:34 -0400
Tomus Cone wrote:
>
> >why not designate the maximum cyber the
> >various regions of the body can handle, say, a point value, then split
> >cyber into different groups, based
> >on which region they would be implanted in, and give them a numerical
> >rating that is a certain percentage
> >of the region.
> >
> > Any ideas/thought?
>
> What about bone lacing?

And Muscle Replacement...


--Jett

<*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*>


"I'll make this clear, that I'm just here for backup. And to offer the
occasional advice or insult."
--Jett, on being an NPC

Behold the mighty sonic scream of the Jett!

http://www.scifi-fantasy.com/~zmjett/shadow.htm
Message no. 47
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: essence
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 18:31:05 -0500
On Sat, 12 Sep 1998 19:09:34 -0400 Jett <zmjett@*********.COM> writes:
>Tomus Cone wrote:
>> >why not designate the maximum cyber the
>> >various regions of the body can handle, say, a point value, then
split
>> >cyber into different groups, based
>> >on which region they would be implanted in, and give them a numerical
>> >rating that is a certain percentage
>> >of the region.
>> >
>> > Any ideas/thought?

>> What about bone lacing?
>
>And Muscle Replacement...
>
>
>--Jett
<SNIP Sig>

??? those are simple ... you want a headache? Move-by-Wire. Hefty
essence (up to more than 6) all in the spine ...

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

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Message no. 48
From: Bernie Shaw <bernie_shaw@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Essence
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 18:36:48 PDT
>All this talk about headware memory and how the brain is more
>sensitive to intrusion and..yada yada yada got me thinking. Instead
>of having a single "essence" number, why not designate the maximum
>cyber the various regions of the body can handle, say, a point
>value, then split cyber into different groups, based on which region
>they would be implanted in, and give them a numerical rating that is
>a certain percentage of the region.

The system you're proposing with different Essence zones (?) for each
part of the body gets really messy, really quickly. People'll have
already brought up the problem with zone crossovers, bodywide 'ware, and
systems that are the exception to the rule (like D. Ghost's spine-base
MBW example), but what about magic loss (what do you do - average the
bodywide essence zones then use that as your effective 'essence' for
determining magic loss?), essence's subzero-effect (ie. death), the
effects on magical healing (surely if your arm has all the cyber then
the rest of you is going to heal normally...), and so on.
I can see where you're coming from with your ideas (One of my players
had similar notions) but after we trialled various ways of doing it, we
came to the conclusion that it just wasn't worth it. Too many
complications, too much time wasting, too many things to have to think
about, and too much potential for abuse.


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Message no. 49
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: essence
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 12:25:50 -0400
On Sat, 12 Sep 1998, Grunion wrote:

->All this talk about headware memory and how the brain is more sensitive
->to intrusion and..yada yada yada
->got me thinking. Instead of having a single "essence" number, why not
->designate the maximum cyber the
->various regions of the body can handle, say, a point value, then split
->cyber into different groups, based
->on which region they would be implanted in, and give them a numerical
->rating that is a certain percentage
->of the region.
->
-> Any ideas/thought?

Did you have any suggestions for numbers? It sounds intriguing
but I'm not certain how you'd work it. The primary problem with this idea
would be that pieces like Wired Reflexes & Smartgun Links would have
different number and various locations since they go through several areas
of the body & interact with them.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 50
From: danturek@*******.com (Dan Turek)
Subject: Essence
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 11:41:53 -0400
So I was readin' the intro to Man & Machine
http://www.shadowrunrpg.com/sponsor/intro_mm.shtml
and noticed

"We do know you can lose Essence when you take a deadly wound, receive
incompetent medical care, or suffer an addiction. We also know that adding
cyberware immediately removes Essence, and that different grades of
cyberware remove different amounts of Essence."

"But again, this sweeping statement fails, because pins, hip replacements
and pacemakers shouldn't cause you to lose Essence."

Who can point out losing Essence to a deadly wound? Magic, yes, but Essence?

Isn't Bone Lacing or implanting brass knuckles similar to pins and hip
replacements? They don't have to connect to the neural system, so aren't
they kind of just 'extra weight'?

I would think that pins, pacemakers, etc. SHOULD cause Essence loss. I would
also think that removing the pin while it continues to heal would mean you
could regain your Essence. We tinkered a bit with this in my campaign
(mostly due to a vampiric drain) and used the old ED analogy to say you
regain a point of Essence per 366 days if no cyberware, etc. is blocking it
from being regained. Considering the character will not last that long
without taking several extended vacations I'm not worried.

Does Essence loss always mean a loss of Magic? I would say yes, so the
Essence drained character lost his Magic too. Should it come back?
Personally I'm tempted to say no, but if vampires can be mages, then it must
somehow - even though it doesn't from Deadly wounds. Anyone have a take on
this?

Lastly Grimjack is a big influence on my campaign, but my sister was mad
that not having Magic or cyberware mainly means you always get your butt
kicked. I toyed but have not tested giving each player a karma pool equal to
their Essence. It wouldn't refresh per encounter, just when karma awards are
given. This would give meat characters a slight edge, but too much of an
edge for Magickers. Has anyone played with something similar?








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Message no. 51
From: davidb@****.imcprint.com (Graht)
Subject: Essence
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 09:51:54 -0600
At 11:41 AM 9/5/2002 -0400, Dan Turek wrote:
>So I was readin' the intro to Man & Machine
>http://www.shadowrunrpg.com/sponsor/intro_mm.shtml
>and noticed
>
>"We do know you can lose Essence when you take a deadly wound, receive
>incompetent medical care, or suffer an addiction. We also know that adding
>cyberware immediately removes Essence, and that different grades of
>cyberware remove different amounts of Essence."
>
>"But again, this sweeping statement fails, because pins, hip replacements
>and pacemakers shouldn't cause you to lose Essence."
>
>Who can point out losing Essence to a deadly wound? Magic, yes, but Essence?

...you got me there. I don't think I've ever seen a reference to essence
loss from damage.

>Isn't Bone Lacing or implanting brass knuckles similar to pins and hip
>replacements? They don't have to connect to the neural system, so aren't
>they kind of just 'extra weight'?

Pins, hip replacements, and pacemakers serve as "healing" agents. Bone
lacing and brass knuckles aren't necessary. Perhaps the body/aura can tell
the difference and isn't offended by pins, hip replacements, pacemakers and
the like, but it is offended by unnecessary but simple modifications like
implanted brass knuckles.

To Life,
-Graht
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader II
http://www.graht.com
--
Message no. 52
From: barbie@********.de (Barbie LeVile)
Subject: Essence
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 18:16:20 +0200
On Thu, 05 Sep 2002 11:41:53 -0400
"Dan Turek" <danturek@*******.com> wrote:

[snips essence stuff]

first :) yes, i'm still alive, but somewhat busy :)

now, for essence, i wrote many moons ago some little text, which is still
based on SR2, but it outlines my take on essence:)

What is essence?
Simply said essence is the purity of the physical body, purity in the
meaning of contamination with non living matter that interacts with the
physical
body.

Ok, now a bit more in detail.

A physical body has a basic essence rating that determines its state of
metaphysical purity. A implant which interacts with its host body will
lower
the essence of the body, because the physical body is changed from its
astral
template, which defines the natural state, and so loosing its sync. This
works
on the following principle:
The non living implant has its own non living aura that interacts with the
living aura of the physical body, distorting its mana channeling abilities.
This
happens on a greater level when the implant is closer to the physical bodies
nervous system, because the nervous system reacts more easily on the changes
in
the mana channeling. Another factor is of course the size of the non living
aura, aka the implants size. A small object, like a bullet, that is strucked
in
the body and that doesn't interacts with the body beside been there does
cost
essence also, but the essence cost is so small that it doesn't effects the
overall essence rating. A living implant, aka bioware, would not cost
essence
because a living aura does`t disrupts the mana flow like the aura of a dead
thing. Magic will still be lost however, because the mana flow disruption is
great enough to alter the actual mana flow. The more essence is lost the
closer
the physical body drifts towards death because when all available essence is
lost the body losses its ability to channel the always present mana into
life
energy that keeps the `soul` intact inside its physical shell. In the
unfortunate state that a victim is reduced to a negative essence, it dies on
the
spot because the natural bond of its `soul` and body is destroyed. The
cybermancy ritual alters this `natural law` by altering the astral template
to
redirect the mana flow by artificial powering the needed mana bond by
drawing
the mana directly from the astral, which results in the known effect of the
karma haze around the so called cyberzombie. The infamous essence drain
power of
certain critters work on a slightly different principle. The paranatural
essence
drain works by altering the emotional state of the victim, inducing so a
feedback in the physical body that puts it out of sync with its astral body
allowing so the critter to tap into the mana flow, channeling the mana for
its
own use. The so gained essence will only last temporally, because a critter
with
such power has a natural instability in its mana bond, which it need to
infuse
with foreign essence to stabilize it. Such critter doesn't get the essence
drained, actually the drained essence is used to recreate the mana bond of
the
critters `soul` with its body, restoring so apparently the essence of the
critter. Such critters have a much higher basic essence rating because of
the
transformation that leads to the gaining of the essence instability
strengthens
as side effect the mana bond over its normal state. The victim however will
loss
its drained essence permanently because the act of draining irreversible
alters
the victims physical makeup in a very subtle but drastic way, distorting so
the
mana bond. In most victims this alteration leads to a addiction like mental
and
physical change that drives such subjects back to the essence drainer.

--
Barbie - Prayers are like junkmail for Jesus

I have seen things you lusers would not believe.
I've seen Sun monitors on fire off the side of the multimedia lab.
I've seen NTU lights glitter in the dark near the Mail Gate.
All these things will be lost in time, like the root partition last week.
Time to die.
Message no. 53
From: danturek@*******.com (Dan Turek)
Subject: Essence
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 00:53:04 -0400
>Barbie LeVile barbie@********.de Thu, 5 Sep 2002 18:16:20 +0200

>What is essence?
> Simply said essence is the purity of the physical body, purity in >the
>meaning of contamination with non living matter that interacts >with the
>physical body.

>A physical body has a basic essence rating that determines its state of
>metaphysical purity.

So if the body heals, then Essence can be regained since it once again
matches what it should be, yes?

But what about Essence ratings higher than 6, such as shapeshifters? All
seem to be dual-natured if I recall, and that argument could even be made
for Immortal NPCs with Essence > 6. Are they more in tune than any mundane?
Like they know what they should be better?

So do the majority agree with (what I believe Barbie) and I say when bullets
in you reduce Essence some minor amount, but surgery and healing would let
you regain it? That a large amount of cyberware Essence could also be
regained (though the part left on the nerve endings would have to remain -
but that is reusable for other cyberparts)?

Would you also say Essence Drained by the Power also could Heal, obviously
over a long period of time?

Would people who die of "old age" be dead of zero Essence? Is cancer a
reduction of Essence - or any major debilitating disease that overwhelms the
genetic code of what the body should be and replaces it with something else?
While it is not "inert" like cyberware, it also is not a living functional
part like bioware.

Lastly, what Essence does a corpse have?


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Message no. 54
From: dam01@***.edu.au (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Essence
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 16:45:08 +1000
Dan Turek writes:

> Who can point out losing Essence to a deadly wound? Magic, yes, but
> Essence?

A statement very similar to that has appeared in every Edition of SR.
However, to the best of my knowledge, there has never been a rule in any
Edition of SR that actually caused Essence loss from Deadly wounds. I have a
feeling that such a rule might have been edited from SR1, but the text in
the Essence section never changed. Then in subsequent Editions, the text was
just cut and pasted.

> Isn't Bone Lacing or implanting brass knuckles similar to pins and hip
> replacements? They don't have to connect to the neural system, so aren't
> they kind of just 'extra weight'?

In SR3, this is a very valid argument. You're right. In SRII, the reasoning
for Essence loss was different (along the lines of deviation from one's
aural template), and implantation of otherwise inert cyberware would result
in Essence loss. The only explanation in SR3 is "game balance".

> Does Essence loss always mean a loss of Magic? I would say yes, so the
> Essence drained character lost his Magic too.

I'm pretty sure that somewhere a character's Magic Attribute is defined in
reference to their Essence (Magic=Essence+6+Initiate Grade-Losses due to
Deadly Wounds, or something like that). So losing Essence would directly
result in losing Magic at the same rate.

> Should it come back?

Essence, or Magic? Essence, as far as SR is concerned, never comes back. The
only exception is the Critter Power Temporary Essence Drain, which causes
temporary loss of Essence. Magic goes down and up with various external
influences, such as Initiation and Deadly wounds.

> Personally I'm tempted to say no, but if vampires can be mages, then it
> must somehow - even though it doesn't from Deadly wounds. Anyone have a
> take on this?

Who knows? Vampires don't necessarily follow the rules, now, do they? They
are Critters, not PCs. They certainly don't follow the rules for Essence
loss/gain that PCs do, so perhaps their Magic loss/gain rules are similarly
different. I wouldn't worry about it too much, unless you're planning on
allowing PCs to be vampires.

> Lastly Grimjack is a big influence on my campaign, but my sister was mad
> that not having Magic or cyberware mainly means you always get your butt
> kicked. I toyed but have not tested giving each player a karma pool equal
> to their Essence. It wouldn't refresh per encounter, just when karma awards
> are given. This would give meat characters a slight edge, but too much of
> an edge for Magickers. Has anyone played with something similar?

Short of changing how the world of SR works and interacts in a fairly major
way, which is fine if you want to, you're stuck with uncybered mundanes
being suckworthy in most combat situations in SR. What you're suggesting
might help a bit, but I don't really feel it would make all that much
difference, personally.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 55
From: dam01@***.edu.au (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Essence
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 16:53:55 +1000
Dan Turek writes:

> So if the body heals, then Essence can be regained since it once again
> matches what it should be, yes?

If you follow Barbie's ideas, then yes. By SR3, no. By SRII, no as well,
actually. Essence loss in both Editions is permanent and unrecoverable.

> But what about Essence ratings higher than 6, such as shapeshifters? All
> seem to be dual-natured if I recall, and that argument could even be made
> for Immortal NPCs with Essence > 6. Are they more in tune than any mundane?
> Like they know what they should be better?

Lots of Critters have Essence Attributes that are different to 6. Some
higher; some lower. It's a factor of the Critter in question. If you want to
look at it SRII style (or Barbie style ;-)), then their astral/aural
template says that their Essence should be 8, or 12, or 3, or 5, or
whatever. And it is. Whether a magically powerful individual could
consciously adjust their Essence is entirely up to speculation.

> So do the majority agree with (what I believe Barbie) and I say when bullets
> in you reduce Essence some minor amount, but surgery and healing would let
> you regain it? That a large amount of cyberware Essence could also be
> regained (though the part left on the nerve endings would have to remain -
> but that is reusable for other cyberparts)?

It's reasonably in a variety of ways. It's not BTB, but that's OK.

> Would you also say Essence Drained by the Power also could Heal, obviously
> over a long period of time?

Ditto.

> Would people who die of "old age" be dead of zero Essence? Is cancer a
> reduction of Essence - or any major debilitating disease that overwhelms the
> genetic code of what the body should be and replaces it with something else?
> While it is not "inert" like cyberware, it also is not a living functional
> part like bioware.

People die for a variety of reasons. It's possible, in SR, to die from
having all your Essence removed. Overimplantation of cyberware, or draining
by Critters, for example. But this isn't to say that all deaths are caused
by loss of Essence. Getting shot can kill a person in SR who has 6 Essence.
It's my view that cancer can do just the same.

> Lastly, what Essence does a corpse have?

Zero. Just like any other inanimate object.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 56
From: loneeagle2061@*******.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Essence
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 09:21:32 +0000
>From: "Dan Turek" <danturek@*******.com>
>>What is essence?
>> Simply said essence is the purity of the physical body, purity in >the
>>meaning of contamination with non living matter that interacts >with the
>>physical body.
<Snip>
>But what about Essence ratings higher than 6, such as shapeshifters? All
>seem to be dual-natured if I recall, and that argument could even be made
>for Immortal NPCs with Essence > 6. Are they more in tune than any mundane?
>Like they know what they should be better?

I've always seen essence as an expression of the strength or integrity of
the link between the physical body and the spirit. As the mind and the
spirit are closely related anything which reduces an individual's consious
control over their body reduces the strength of that link, as does anything
which adds unconsious functions or changes them. The spirit is connected to
involentary reactions (like the heartbeat) as well, Dermal Plating has self
repair systems, self contained self repair systems, which the spirit has no
connection to...
Now by my logic Bone Lacing would appear to be an exception to the rule.
Maybe Lacing constrains the bone's development, perhaps it interferes with
the replacement of joint cartelidge, or perhaps it's just the only piece of
'ware which can't be made to fit the game balance model.
IMHO A Pacemaker causes a loss of essence, it takes control of a bodily
reaction away from the spirit, A simple set of plates and screws to hold a
bone together performs a function but does not interfere with the body in
any way (other than it's weight) and therefore wouldn't. I'd suggest that an
amputation causes essence loss, maybe the phantom limb effect is meerly an
early onset symptom of cyberpsychosis...

I just had a thought, bone lacing is basically the same as Wolverine has in
the X-Men movie (I'm not sure if it looks the same in the comic books)
right? It's basically a secondary skeleton, it makes the bones more
difficult to damage and if a bone get's broken it should be capable of
allowing the limb (or whatever) to function to a limited degree...
Well, IIRC if you have a plate put in to hold a bone together the body will
eventually grow bone all over (and around) that plate, also the plate has to
be carefully positioned to avoid the various blood vessels which penetrate
the bone, plates like Wolverine's couldn't be done that way, and because
they're attached to a healthy, intact bone the body is unable to assimilate
them. therefore they do interfere with the body's function (although not to
as great a degree as the essence cost suggests to me.)

Finally think about these, the tracking microchip implants in the news here
due to Jessica and Holly. Vasectomy...
It is said that if a blokes balls are ripped off he will die, some say that
its because he has nothing left to live for but consider the essence cost...

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Message no. 57
From: loneeagle2061@*******.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Essence
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 09:36:09 +0000
>From: Damion Milliken <dam01@***.edu.au>
>Short of changing how the world of SR works and interacts in a fairly major
>way, which is fine if you want to, you're stuck with uncybered mundanes
>being suckworthy in most combat situations in SR.

I'd disagree, yes uncybered mundanes are a little suckworthy in toe to toe,
stay fighting until one or other of you dies combat but I can make ten
proffessional rent-a-cop style secmen with access to BPVs, SMGs or ARs and
odd extras (yes a heavy load for secmen but nothing compared to some
'runners) a major stumbling block for at least the 'runner team I'm
currently GMing, If I really tried (and the dice weren't against me)I could
make them feel lucky they escaped with 75% deadly wounds and loose 2 or 3 of
the secmen.
Fighting as a Joe average mundane with only your wetware backing you up is
not impossible, it's just a question of learning new tactics. Being cleverer
than the "bad guys".

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Message no. 58
From: nightgyr@*********.com.au (GreyWolf)
Subject: Essence
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 20:51:48 +1000
> I'd disagree, yes uncybered mundanes are a little suckworthy in toe to
toe,
> stay fighting until one or other of you dies combat but I can make ten
> proffessional rent-a-cop style secmen with access to BPVs, SMGs or ARs and
> odd extras (yes a heavy load for secmen but nothing compared to some
> 'runners) a major stumbling block for at least the 'runner team I'm
> currently GMing, If I really tried (and the dice weren't against me)I
could
> make them feel lucky they escaped with 75% deadly wounds and loose 2 or 3
of
> the secmen.
> Fighting as a Joe average mundane with only your wetware backing you up is
> not impossible, it's just a question of learning new tactics. Being
cleverer
> than the "bad guys".

I agree completely. 6 runners vs. 5 mundanes with SMG's or shotguns and some
favourable terrain (in a recent game I ran) was a huge problem for the
runner side, since the mundanes knew the terrain and despite being surprised
made life difficult despite the odds. Only one mundane went down at all and
the runners ended up running away.

In another game, three secmen with light pistols slowed a runner team down
long enough for Lone Star to show up.

In yet a different game again, a lone agent - sporting nothing more than a
long coat, smartlink2, supressed machine pistol and a pair of thermal smoke
grenades caused havok among the runner team by making them think they were
being attacked from multiple sides by rolling the thermals through the
ventilation shafts to create huge billowing smoke from both sides, then
firing at them from a third side from behind lots of greenery. he didnt hit
anything, but the sound of burst EX rounds flying past everyones heads
seemed to excite the team enough to ditch the run early and take off without
any of the 'bonus extras' (aka: stolen goods and paydata) which was lying
around. if they'd searched about carefully they'd have capped the agent, but
they didnt. its oversights like this which allow mundanes to be extremely
effective. mundanes dont tend to stand and deliver. In fact.. only munchkins
do that in my games.

Stand Still, Stand Open, Go Splat
-- Munchkin Creed

GreyWolf
Message no. 59
From: dam01@***.edu.au (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Essence
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 10:18:46 +1000
Lone Eagle writes:

> I just had a thought, bone lacing is basically the same as Wolverine has in
> the X-Men movie (I'm not sure if it looks the same in the comic books)
> right? It's basically a secondary skeleton, it makes the bones more
> difficult to damage and if a bone get's broken it should be capable of
> allowing the limb (or whatever) to function to a limited degree...

I'm not so sure. It could well be sensibly argued basd upon the description
of the 'ware that it was building the new material into the exisiting bone
structure. As Hahns Shin pointed out, this would be somewhat invasive and
may well drastically affect the flow of blood within the bones (not to
mention other marrow functions). As such, it may well require continual
nanite upkeep or something like that, akin to the idea you proposed for
Dermal Armour.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 60
From: dam01@***.edu.au (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Essence
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 10:31:46 +1000
Lone Eagle & GreyWolf write:

> <Uncybered mundanes don't suck!>

I agree that, yes, if they're smart (or the opposition dumb ;-)), then
uncybered mundanes can still pack a punch quite effectively in a fight. But
if the opposition is just as smart and cybered/magically active, then the
uncybered mundanes are going to get the floor wiped with them. I think that
your examples would have gone rather differently if the uncybered mundanes
that were quite effective were instead cybered or magically active. Rather
than merely scaring off the runners, or causing such severe damage that the
runners had to retreat, they would have obliterated the runners completely.
And, on the flip side, if the runners had have been half as smart as your
uncybered mundane NPCs, then I'm fairly sure that your uncybered NPCs
wouldn't have performed nearly as well.

Anyone can be smart and employ clever tactics or use situations to their
advantage. It's not limited to uncybered mundanes. Cybered and magically
active people can do it too. Sometimes they can do it significantly better
(being able to levitate, see thermo, etc). It just requires that they use
their brain.

It is, I note, a sad statement that many cybered or magically active
characters don't have a very large capability to think laterally. But this
is not an indication that uncybered mundanes have all the brains.

In an equal seting, with equal consideration given to tactics and other smart
maneouvers, cybered or magically active characters have such a significant
edge that the uncybered mundanes often become nothing more than a speed hump
on the road to victory.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 61
From: loneeagle2061@*******.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Essence
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 08:40:22 +0000
>From: Damion Milliken <dam01@***.edu.au>
<Snip>
>In an equal seting, with equal consideration given to tactics and other
>smart
>maneouvers, cybered or magically active characters have such a significant
>edge that the uncybered mundanes often become nothing more than a speed
>hump
>on the road to victory.

True enough granted.
On the other hand when you look at this in context (ie a shadowrun, from
either side of the table) in most cases the uncybered mundanes tend to have
the home field advantage, they tend to spend more time working on tactics
and ideas for dealing with cybered threats than cybered people do, cybered
people tend to think of cybered people as uncybered people with metal bits
while to paraphrase and corrupt Assassins "...killing a gillette is
different from killing a human, you have to pull the trigger in a different
way..."
Uncybered people _do_ tend to take more advantage of the equipment they
have, communications, cover, concealment and of course the most important
advantage they normally possess, teamwork.
Why is this? because they don't have such things as smartlinks, demal
armour, bone-lacing...etc.
In our campaign the character's range from 140 Karma down to 50 odd, they
are non-combat oriented enough that uncybered mundanes can injure them even
if they're doing a suicide charge into the 'runners' lines, when the cyber
free mundanes are thinking they're enough to cause the 'runners real
problems. don't get me wrong the team is not composed entirely of pacifist
chipheads, in a short range firefight or melee there isn't much for them to
worry about in an uncybered mundane but put the mundane at 50 meters, behind
cover...etc with optic 2 scopes on their guns falling back from cover to
cover by sections, leaving personel actuated devices behind perhaps...
I'm increasing tactical levels or cyber levels of the primary threat bit by
bit at the moment, of course if they don't learn from it Ghost help them
when they meet Banded Red Samurai.

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Message no. 62
From: danturek@*******.com (Dan Turek)
Subject: Essence
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 12:33:05 -0400
So a corpse has an essence of 0.
The chop doc does his job since parts are parts.
Being parts, they have an essence of 0.
The person with a bad kidney/spleen/whatever gets one replaced with the
available part. Since the part does a "poof I'm part of a living organism"
thing, it suddenly comes alive, so replacing parts is not just like getting
cyberware implanted. The part has an essence > 0.



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Message no. 63
From: christian@********.org (Christian Casavant)
Subject: Essence
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 18:54:12 +0100
Dan,

> So a corpse has an essence of 0.
> The chop doc does his job since parts are parts.
> Being parts, they have an essence of 0.
> The person with a bad kidney/spleen/whatever gets one replaced with
> the available part. Since the part does a "poof I'm part of a living
> organism" thing, it suddenly comes alive, so replacing parts is not
> just like getting cyberware implanted. The part has an essence > 0.


Nice argument, but there may be a flaw. I'm pretty sure most organ
transplants (or transplants of any kind for that matter) are done with
still living flesh, or maybe even very recently dead bits but not quite
dead bits. So, I don't think it "suddenly comes alive," the transplant
team will likely try to keep that bit alive as long as possible.
Although that might be implied in your point. However, I still agree,
the part likely has an essence greater than 0. Although it's also
possible that in 2060, bits are cryogenically frozen and transplanted at
a later date when a suitable recipient is found. It's also possible
that a bit loses essence the longer it's out of the host body.

Also, I'm not altogether convinced that modern hip replacements aren't
essence reducing, nor am I convinced that organ transplants aren't
essence reducing either. Since essence is more or less irrelevent to us
at this moment, they may be essence reducing. It may even be possible
to argue that they are, since it's possible to reject organs after
transplant, it could probably be argued that there is a certain amount
of essence loss.

Xian.
Message no. 64
From: dam01@***.edu.au (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Essence
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 10:03:49 +1000
Dan Turek writes:

> So a corpse has an essence of 0.
> The chop doc does his job since parts are parts.
> Being parts, they have an essence of 0.
> The person with a bad kidney/spleen/whatever gets one replaced with the
> available part. Since the part does a "poof I'm part of a living organism"
> thing, it suddenly comes alive, so replacing parts is not just like getting
> cyberware implanted. The part has an essence > 0.

It could probably be argued that replacement organic parts have an Essence
of zero, and that cyberware has a negative Essence. Implanting a replacement
body part in someone doesn't change their Essence, but implanting cyberware
reduces their Essence.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 65
From: danturek@*******.com (Dan Turek)
Subject: Essence
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 23:18:23 -0400
Damion Milliken wrote:

>It could probably be argued that replacement organic parts have an Essence
>of zero, and that cyberware has a negative Essence. Implanting a
>replacement body part in someone doesn't change their Essence, but
>implanting cyberware reduces their Essence.

I like this explanation best and think I'll write it in my copy of the
rules. Thus if both arms get blown away, you lose no essence, whether you
replace them with clone/spare parts or not, but getting cyberarms is an
automatic reduction. Thanks!


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Message no. 66
From: loneeagle2061@*******.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Essence
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 08:50:57 +0000
>From: Christian Casavant <christian@********.org>
>>So a corpse has an essence of 0.

Right. A corpse is an inanimate object so unless your kitchen sink has an
essence score a corpse must have 0 Essence. The awakening created a new
definition of death, rather than the point at which your heart stops or your
brain ceases function clinical death in the 2060s is when the spirit leaves
the body.

>>The chop doc does his job since parts are parts.
>>Being parts, they have an essence of 0.

Being inanimate objects yes.

>>The person with a bad kidney/spleen/whatever gets one replaced with the
>>available part. Since the part does a "poof I'm part of a living
organism"
>>thing, it suddenly comes alive, so replacing parts is not just like
>>getting cyberware implanted. The part has an essence > 0.

The new kidney is connected into a living body, it suddenly has something is
hasn't had since its previous body died... several things actually; it has
living blood delivering oxygen and vital chemicals into its tissues and
carrying away its waste products; it has a spirit attached to it, an astral
presence; it has become part of a whole, no longer is it just a kidney, now
it's an integrated part of a metahuman.
A spark plug sitting on a bench is a pointless object, fit it correctly and
while it remains a spark plug it isn't thought of as such, instead it is a
part of a car, it is infused with some sort of car-ness; if you were to
dismantle a car, strip it down to its most basic parts what part is the
car...
Welcome to philosophy hour.

>Nice argument, but there may be a flaw. I'm pretty sure most organ
>transplants (or transplants of any kind for that matter) are done with
>still living flesh,
<Snip>
>Also, I'm not altogether convinced that modern hip replacements aren't
>essence reducing, nor am I convinced that organ transplants aren't essence
>reducing either. Since essence is more or less irrelevent to us at this
>moment, they may be essence reducing.

Quite possibly, I would suggest in fact that organ transplants are essence
reducing, it isn't listed in SR3 because vat regrowth jobs aren't, it's your
own kidney being put back in... those people who have to go to organ leggers
don't have to worry so much about essence, they're to poor to afford even
the most mundane cyberware and they're unlikely to have any magical talent,
awakened tend to be able to support vat jobs or never need them.

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Message no. 67
From: christian@********.org (Christian Casavant)
Subject: Essence
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 10:29:06 +0100
> Quite possibly, I would suggest in fact that organ transplants are
> essence reducing, it isn't listed in SR3 because vat regrowth jobs
> aren't, it's your own kidney being put back in... those people who
> have to go to organ leggers don't have to worry so much about essence,
> they're to poor to afford even the most mundane cyberware and they're
> unlikely to have any magical talent, awakened tend to be able to
> support vat jobs or never need them.


Yeah, if I recall correctly, the thread started with the premise that
some cyberwear shouldn't be essence reducing because they're not
inherently different from some medical procedures that are supposed to
be healing procedures. However, my question in response to that
statement was, "How do we know healing procedures aren't essence affecting?"

Since it's possible to lose essence from an addiction to drugs, it might
be possible to argue that there is a loss of essence from a long term
dependence on any sort of drug, such as aspirin, low blood pressure
medication, or even asthma medication. So, is essence reduced because
the person is ill, or is essence reduced because they take medication
over a long term to treat their illness?

The main point is that it is very possible that a pin to fix the wrist
in place costs essence, just as does a hip replacement, any cyberwear,
or even an organ replacement; either from the drugs you take to minimize
rejection or the new organ you receive. Which reminds me, organ
rejection is a pretty good argument as to why it's essence reducing. In
my mind, if organ transplants weren't essence impacting then the body
would take to the new organ with a much higher success rate, without
need for anti-rejection medication.

Why do stim patches cause mages to lose magic? Is that just a game
mechanism to prevent mages from being even more powerful or is there
another reason explained in the game?
Message no. 68
From: korishinzo@*******.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Essence
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 18:23:28 +0000
>From: Damion Milliken

>Dan Turek writes:

> > So a corpse has an essence of 0.
> > The chop doc does his job since parts are parts.
> > Being parts, they have an essence of 0.
> > The person with a bad kidney/spleen/whatever gets one replaced with > >
>the available part. Since the part does a "poof I'm part of a > >
>living organism" thing, it suddenly comes alive, so replacing parts > > is
>not just like getting cyberware implanted. The part has an > > essence
> > 0.

>It could probably be argued that replacement organic parts have an >Essence
>of zero, and that cyberware has a negative Essence. Implanting >a
>replacement body part in someone doesn't change their Essence, but
> >implanting cyberware reduces their Essence.

I think that in the effort to divorce the metaphysical of shadowrun from
anyone's present day spiritual views, FASA may have created an area of
irevocable confusion. This confusion is then further compounded by the
references to "Essence" and its mechanics. What follows is entirely my
opinion, and in no way reflects the views of our sponsors or the management.

What is Essence? Is it the spark of life? No, I would say. The spark of
life is just that, a spark. The bioelectical pulse, the ones and zeros of
the heartbeat or synaptic activity. It it the soul, the spirit? Good
question. Does any (every) living thing have a soul? Do unlinving things
automatically not have a soul? Is the soul based on intelligence,
sentience, or something even more intangible? This question is relevant
even today, with the debates raging around cloned human bodies that we can
then harvest valuable organs from. What makes something too "dead" to have
essence? What allows a dead thing, a corpse, to replenish its essence by
stealing it (vampires, ghouls, etc)? I think it would serve our purposes
well to look back at Earthdawn. There we find the concept of a True
Pattern, the metaphysical you. It is all that you are: past, present, and
future. When things happen that change you too far from your True Pattern,
such as losing your Name (the keystone of True Patterns), you can lose your
magic and even your life. Let's say that your Essence is the game mechanic
that numerically represents the relationship between the metaphysical you,
and the physical you. How does that work? Now we can look at cyber and bio
a little differently.

Your true pattern is all that are, were, and will be...if nature is left to
take its course. Now, most things in the physical world don't greatly alter
the synchronism between the physical and metaphysical. You cn break a bone,
and it heals. Your pattern adjusts to accomadate that break into you
metaphyical nature. The two (the physical and the metaphysical you) remain
in harmony. If you clone a part of yourself in a vat and attach it to a
stump on your body, it grows back whole...the metaphysical and physical
patterns eventually resonate together again. If you never replace the limb,
going through life with the stump, your metaphysical pattern adjusts to
reflect this. Still, the ratio is equal, and Essence is 6, or 100%. But
wait, why then won't your metaphysical pattern eventually adjust to your
cyberware, and let your essence (or the physical to metaphysical differnece)
recharge? I thought about this for a while, and found my answer in a little
piece of technobabble dating back to the beginning of SR, and beyond, into
the works of William Gibson. Nanites. What the frag are nanites? The name
suggests that they are some sort of nanotechnical device, a cybernetic
organism. Why are they used in the implantation of cyberware? To supress
your immune system, and let your body accept the ware, right? Well, maybe
not just that. Why use nanotech for such a pharmacological duty? Drugs are
used today, and will be in 2060, to do this job. But a cyberlimb is servos
and polymers, unlike the living tissue of your body. Cells die and are
replaced with new. Metal and plastic shavings pile up due to friction in
the limb, and...what? The answer is the nanites. They are the cycle of
death and regrowth in a piece of cyberware. They replicate the wetwire
interface between meat and machine all the way down to the cellular level.
And like your body's cells, they can only do so much. Daily wear and tear
is fixed, for many many years. So it is with the cyberware, by the nanites.
Waste (the shavings, dirty lubricants, etc) is carried away and used as
resources for the repair of worn parts. Like a body's cells, the nanites
get tired, the resources get thin, and things wear out. Until then, the
limb is as self-maintianing as the human body. Within reason. A bullet
hole in a body needs some help. The cellular repair mechanisms are just not
up to a timely fix of that kind of damage. Nanites, likewise, cannot repair
a hole in a timely fashion. Help is needed.
What does this have to do with essence? Simple. The cyberware is dynamic.
It is in flux like your body, but not precisely like it. More importantly,
not in resonance with it. Your True Pattern can never adjust to
incorpaorate the change because the change keeps on happening, for as long
as the cyberware is present. Once removed...AND once the last nanite had
"died" and been flushed from your system...the essence comes back, or more
accurately, your physical and metaphysical selves regain their harmony.
This can take a very long time, so most people think essence is gone for
good. Cybermancy, as a note, works in this paradigm really well. It hops
in and alters the True Pattern forcibly, to match the physical. This
creates a logical cap on "negative essence" of -6, since in reality, you are
returning to 6 with alterations of the metaphysical pattern. Neat, huh?
Bio is different. It does not have its own dynamic "cellular system". It
uses the one already existing in you. Hence, in time, bioware is part of
the physical you, and your metaphysical pattern can adjust to include it.
Why the bio index then? The metaphysical pattern has limits to how much it
can stretch. It is, after all, the entirety of you: past, present, and
future. Such an encompassing pattern can only be so elastic. Bioware adds
to the total potential of you, outside of what nature intended. This
spreads your metaphysical resources thin. There is only so much change it
can reflect in any given part of you. This allowed degree of change is
lessened when there is more of you, suddenly, than your pattern at birth
could have predicted. Hence, your physical system is constrained by
narrower parameters of operation by the taxation of your metaphysical
strain. This is reflected in your bio index. Which is related then to
essence quite logically. If your physical and metaphyical are drifting out
of synce, there is less and less of the metaphyical to go around. Strain
the metaphysical, and you hamper the flow of magic from the ideal you to the
actual you, from the metaphysical to the physical. Hence, mages are
hampered by bioware as well as cyberware.
Stim/Trauma Patches, BTLs, and Deadly wounds all force lots of fluctuation
on your physical pattern very quickly, often much faster than your
metaphyisical pattern can compensate. Hence, a loss of essence, which,
under this system is temporary, if protracted.
Foci addiction does the opposite, weakening your metaphyisical pattern's
resiliance just an anitbiotics weaken your immune system over time.
Vampiric feeding of any kind steals from the metaphysical pattern's
resources, which is almost always reflected in a theft from the physical
(blood, flesh, etc.). Again, the loss is temporary, but lasts for long
enough that few realizes they are recovering. The dual-natured feeding has
its own unnatural resonance, which disrupts the resonance of the victim's
patterns This creates a phychosomatic "addiction" in the vicitm, as they
are drawn back to the cause of the unnatural resonance in their patterns.


And there you go. A system which explain it all, hangs together, and
tampers with noone's spiritual viewpoint. The soul can balance neatly on
the connection between the two patterns, and we don't mess with it at all.
It leaves if and when the two patterns drift their seperate ways, such as
when there is 0 essence, or 0% synchronicity between the two. Or perhaps,
the metaphysical and physical patterns get tired, worn out from a lifetime
of adjusting and compensating. They shake hands and retire from their
respective duties, freeing the soul to pursue other venues (aka death by old
age).

Comments are welcome, as this sort of just come to me while sitting here at
work, and is, as such, raw and untried...rather "out of the mind, on to the
page", if you will.

Korishinzo
--we were talking about this why? ;)

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Message no. 69
From: dam01@***.edu.au (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Essence
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 10:26:25 +1000
Ice Heart writes:

> <Snip very good Essence explanation>

Overall I really like your explanation. It's about the same as the SRII
"aural/astral template" explanation, and it fits well with the SR world
view. I've a couple of points, though.

> What allows a dead thing, a corpse, to replenish its essence by stealing
> it (vampires, ghouls, etc)?

Technically, in SR, such creatures are not dead. They have a magical
infection. Of course, it could be easily argued under your system that such
a magical infection causes a rapid and seriously damaging effect on the
astral-physical matching (much more than a physical infection). Such a rapid
state of flux would be nearly impossible for the metahuman systemn to keep
up with, and Essence loss would result. Explaining the draining capabilities
could be pretty much as you have already stated.

> Your True Pattern can never adjust to incorpaorate the change because the
> change keeps on happening, for as long as the cyberware is present. Once
> removed...AND once the last nanite had "died" and been flushed from your
> system...the essence comes back, or more accurately, your physical and
> metaphysical selves regain their harmony.

A metahuman body is continually adjusting to continues changes all the time,
though. Living in a large sprawl, a metahuman will be continually exposed
to, say, airborne contaminants. This is a state of flux - such things come
and go continually. But they do not grossly adversely affect the metahuman's
Essence. I would say that it is possible, for a metahuman to not lose Essence
in a rapidly changing, dynamic, situation (for example immune diseases).
Likewise, it would seem possible, at least in principle, for a metahuman
system to adjust to a continually changing cybernetic system. Adjustment
might take longer, or be more difficult, but within the framework of your
theory, I would say that it would be quite possible.

> This creates a logical cap on "negative essence" of -6, since in reality,
> you are returning to 6 with alterations of the metaphysical pattern. Neat,
> huh?

I don't quite see how this works. If cybermancy is fooling the
astral/physical synergy, then it can arbitrarily assign a maximum value,
depending upon how good the fooling is.

Other than these points, your explanation is great!

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 70
From: robertennew@*****.com.au (Robert Ennew)
Subject: essence
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 17:27:48 +1000 (EST)
on Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 12:33:05 -0400
"Dan Turek" <danturek@*******.com> wrote:
>
> So a corpse has an essence of 0.

yep

> The chop doc does his job since parts are parts.
> Being parts, they have an essence of 0.

yep, just preserved to point where decomposition
slowed

> The person with a bad kidney/spleen/whatever gets
> one replaced with the
> available part. Since the part does a "poof I'm part
> of a living organism"
> thing, it suddenly comes alive,......

NO! The transplant is still dead (essence 0) until the
body accepts It as part of Its own biological material
(becomes integrated into own body mechanics/chemistry)
. The body rejects It because It's 1 foreigne material
(compatiple with someone elses system, & dead,). the
body is designed to purge all foreigne material for
survival (involuntary function) of system at all costs
(that is why you need specialized drugs to convince
the body otherwise in the mending/melding phases).
Look at those 2 hand transplant patients. the 1st, an
ex criminal/con was a drekhead, grew lazy with his
medical maintenance, they went down hill bad
(gangrene)the body wasn't convinced (rejects hands)
because of his lack of conviction, ungrateful fraggin'
fragger decides to then have them amputated after the
doctors hard work/research. the swiss fella' OTAH did
the right thing, & now his hands are 99.99999% his own
as they have fully integrated with the body
system/chemistry to the point of DNA & bone
composition/structure. Its all his nuerally, It's all
his physically now (his own hair grows on his knuckles
etc) tell me that aint a medical miracle. (GZ)

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>

> ATTACHMENT part 3.2 message/rfc822
> Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 18:54:12 +0100
> From: Christian Casavant <christian@********.org>
> To: Shadowrun Discussion
> <shadowrn@*****.dumpshock.com>
> Subject: Re: Essence
>
> Dan,
>
> > So a corpse has an essence of 0.
> > The chop doc does his job since parts are parts.
> > Being parts, they have an essence of 0.
> > The person with a bad kidney/spleen/whatever gets
> one replaced with
> > the available part. Since the part does a "poof
> I'm part of a living
> > organism" thing, it suddenly comes alive, so
> replacing parts is not
> > just like getting cyberware implanted. The part
> has an essence > 0.
>
>
> Nice argument, but there may be a flaw. I'm pretty
> sure most organ
> transplants (or transplants of any kind for that
> matter) are done with
> still living flesh, or maybe even very recently dead
> bits but not quite
> dead bits. So, I don't think it "suddenly comes
> alive," the transplant
> team will likely try to keep that bit alive as long
> as possible.
> Although that might be implied in your point.
> However, I still agree,
> the part likely has an essence greater than 0.
> Although it's also
> possible that in 2060, bits are cryogenically frozen
> and transplanted at
> a later date when a suitable recipient is found.
> It's also possible
> that a bit loses essence the longer it's out of the
> host body.
>
> Also, I'm not altogether convinced that modern hip
> replacements aren't
> essence reducing, nor am I convinced that organ
> transplants aren't
> essence reducing either. Since essence is more or
> less irrelevent to us
> at this moment, they may be essence reducing. It
> may even be possible
> to argue that they are, since it's possible to
> reject organs after
> transplant, it could probably be argued that there
> is a certain amount
> of essence loss.
>
> Xian.
>
>
>

> ATTACHMENT part 3.3 message/rfc822
> Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 12:15:06 -0600
> From: Graht <davidb@****.imcprint.com>
> To: Shadowrun Discussion
> <shadowrn@*****.dumpshock.com>
> Subject: Re: Newbie question
>
> At 03:05 PM 9/10/2002 +1000, Damion Milliken wrote:
> >Bandwidth Oracle writes:
> >
> > > I've GM'ed for awhile but I've never actually
> played a game of
> > > Shadowrun, now my term of GM is up, is there
> anything vastly different
> > > from being a GM to a player? Any big adjustments
> I'll need to make?
> >
> >The only thing that I'd point out is that your view
> of the SR world might
> >not be the same as your GMs. As a SR GM of some 13
> years experience, I can
> >say that I have difficulty playing SR sometimes
> because I have preconceived
> >views about how the SR world fits together and
> works. Not everyone has the
> >same views as me, though ;-). Fortunately, I only
> get to play about once
> >every two years or so (at cons, or when someone
> else *gasp* runs a SR game),
> >so it rarely causes problems ;-). So, remember,
> your GM is running SR in
> >_his_ SR universe, not yours, so don't try to force
> your SR world view on
> >him ;-).
>
> Or to make it short: remember that as a player you
> are no longer the GM :)
>
> This means that it isn't you world, your
> interpretation of the rules, your
> knowledge of the rules, etc. If the other GM does
> something that you
> wouldn't do, or doesn't do something that you would
> due, don't say anything
> and just play the game :)
>
> To Life,
> -Graht
> ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader II
> http://www.graht.com
> --
>
>

> ATTACHMENT part 3.4 message/rfc822
> Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 00:08:48 +0200
> From: Jeremie Bouillon <bouillon.jeremie@*******.fr>
> To: Shadowrun Discussion
> <shadowrn@*****.dumpshock.com>
> Subject: Re: Newbie question
>
> Le 20:15 10/09/2002, Graht écrivait :
> >This means that it isn't you world, your
> interpretation of the rules, your
> >knowledge of the rules, etc. If the other GM does
> something that you
> >wouldn't do, or doesn't do something that you would
> due, don't say
> >anything and just play the game :)
>
> As in any rpg you may discuss it with him and/or the
> other players _after_
> the game, but do not try to argue with your GM
> during play, even if he's
> making huge mistakes.
>
> Let him his own view of SR rules&universe, and learn
> step by step.
>
>
>
>

> ATTACHMENT part 3.5 message/rfc822
> Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 10:03:49 +1000
> From: Damion Milliken <dam01@***.edu.au>
> To: Shadowrun Discussion
> <shadowrn@*****.dumpshock.com>
> Subject: Re: Essence
>
> Dan Turek writes:
>
> > So a corpse has an essence of 0.
> > The chop doc does his job since parts are parts.
> > Being parts, they have an essence of 0.
> > The person with a bad kidney/spleen/whatever gets
> one replaced with the
> > available part. Since the part does a "poof I'm
> part of a living organism"
> > thing, it suddenly comes alive, so replacing parts
> is not just like getting
> > cyberware implanted. The part has an essence > 0.
>
> It could probably be argued that replacement organic
> parts have an Essence
> of zero, and that cyberware has a negative Essence.
> Implanting a replacement
> body part in someone doesn't change their Essence,
> but implanting cyberware
> reduces their Essence.
>
> --
> Damion Milliken
> University of Wollongong
> Unofficial Shadowrun Guru
> E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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> DI+++@ D-@ G+
> e++>++++ h--- r+++ y+++
> ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
>
>

> ATTACHMENT part 3.6 message/rfc822
> Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 23:18:23 -0400
> From: "Dan Turek" <danturek@*******.com>
> To: shadowrn@*********.com
> Subject: Re: Essence
>
> Damion Milliken wrote:
>
> >It could probably be argued that replacement
> organic parts have an Essence
> >of zero, and that cyberware has a negative Essence.
> Implanting a
> >replacement body part in someone doesn't change
> their Essence, but
> >implanting cyberware reduces their Essence.
>
> I like this explanation best and think I'll write it
> in my copy of the
> rules. Thus if both arms get blown away, you lose no
> essence, whether you
> replace them with clone/spare parts or not, but
> getting cyberarms is an
> automatic reduction. Thanks!
>
>
>
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> ATTACHMENT part 3.7 message/rfc822
> Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 08:50:57 +0000
> From: "Lone Eagle" <loneeagle2061@*******.com>
> To: shadowrn@*****.dumpshock.com
> Subject: Re: Essence
>
> >From: Christian Casavant <christian@********.org>
> >>So a corpse has an essence of 0.
>
> Right. A corpse is an inanimate object so unless
> your kitchen sink has an
> essence score a corpse must have 0 Essence. The
> awakening created a new
> definition of death, rather than the point at which
> your heart stops or your
> brain ceases function clinical death in the 2060s is
> when the spirit leaves
> the body.
>
> >>The chop doc does his job since parts are parts.
> >>Being parts, they have an essence of 0.
>
> Being inanimate objects yes.
>
> >>The person with a bad kidney/spleen/whatever gets
> one replaced with the
> >>available part. Since the part does a "poof I'm
> part of a living organism"
> >>thing, it suddenly comes alive, so replacing parts
> is not just like
> >>getting cyberware implanted. The part has an
> essence > 0.
>
> The new kidney is connected into a living body, it
> suddenly has something is
> hasn't had since its previous body died... several
> things actually; it has
> living blood delivering oxygen and vital chemicals
> into its tissues and
> carrying away its waste products; it has a spirit
> attached to it, an astral
> presence; it has become part of a whole, no longer
> is it just a kidney, now
> it's an integrated part of a metahuman.
> A spark plug sitting on a bench is a pointless
> object, fit it correctly and
> while it remains a spark plug it isn't thought of as
> such, instead it is a
> part of a car, it is infused with some sort of
> car-ness; if you were to
> dismantle a car, strip it down to its most basic
> parts what part is the
> car...
> Welcome to philosophy hour.
>
> >Nice argument, but there may be a flaw. I'm pretty
> sure most organ
> >transplants (or transplants of any kind for that
> matter) are done with
> >still living flesh,
> <Snip>
> >Also, I'm not altogether convinced that modern hip
> replacements aren't
> >essence reducing, nor am I convinced that organ
> transplants aren't essence
> >reducing either. Since essence is more or less
> irrelevent to us at this
> >moment, they may be essence reducing.
>
> Quite possibly, I would suggest in fact that organ
> transplants are essence
> reducing, it isn't listed in SR3 because vat
> regrowth jobs aren't, it's your
> own kidney being put back in... those people who
> have to go to organ leggers
> don't have to worry so much about essence, they're
> to poor to afford even
> the most mundane cyberware and they're unlikely to
> have any magical talent,
> awakened tend to be able to support vat jobs or
> never need them.
>
>
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> ATTACHMENT part 3.8 message/rfc822
> Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 10:29:06 +0100
> From: Christian Casavant <christian@********.org>
> To: Shadowrun Discussion
> <shadowrn@*****.dumpshock.com>
> Subject: Re: Essence
>
> > Quite possibly, I would suggest in fact that organ
> transplants are
> > essence reducing, it isn't listed in SR3 because
> vat regrowth jobs
> > aren't, it's your own kidney being put back in...
> those people who
> > have to go to organ leggers don't have to worry so
> much about essence,
> > they're to poor to afford even the most mundane
> cyberware and they're
> > unlikely to have any magical talent, awakened tend
> to be able to
> > support vat jobs or never need them.
>
>
> Yeah, if I recall correctly, the thread started with
> the premise that
> some cyberwear shouldn't be essence reducing because
> they're not
> inherently different from some medical procedures
> that are supposed to
> be healing procedures. However, my question in
> response to that
> statement was, "How do we know healing procedures
> aren't essence affecting?"
>
> Since it's possible to lose essence from an
> addiction to drugs, it might
> be possible to argue that there is a loss of essence
> from a long term
> dependence on any sort of drug, such as aspirin, low
> blood pressure
> medication, or even asthma medication. So, is
> essence reduced because
> the person is ill, or is essence reduced because
> they take medication
> over a long term to treat their illness?
>
> The main point is that it is very possible that a
> pin to fix the wrist
> in place costs essence, just as does a hip
> replacement, any cyberwear,
> or even an organ replacement; either from the drugs
> you take to minimize
> rejection or the new organ you receive. Which
> reminds me, organ
> rejection is a pretty good argument as to why it's
> essence reducing. In
> my mind, if organ transplants weren't essence
> impacting then the body
> would take to the new organ with a much higher
> success rate, without
> need for anti-rejection medication.
>
> Why do stim patches cause mages to lose magic? Is
> that just a game
> mechanism to prevent mages from being even more
> powerful or is there
> another reason explained in the game?
>
>
>
>

> ATTACHMENT part 3.9 message/rfc822
> Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 10:18:03 +0000
> From: "Lone Eagle" <loneeagle2061@*******.com>
> To: shadowrn@*****.dumpshock.com
> Subject: Stim Burnout, Focus Addiction; was Essence
>
> >From: Christian Casavant <christian@********.org>
> >Why do stim patches cause mages to lose magic? Is
> that just a game
> >mechanism to prevent mages from being even more
> powerful or is there
> >another reason explained in the game?
>
> It used to be said that all mages walked a path
> which inevitably led to
> burnout, our mage has been 'running for over two
> years game time and has yet
> to lose magic, deadly wounds and implanting
> cyberware are good ways of
> expressing the path to burnout but they're too
> major, Stim burnout and focus
> addiction are much more innocuous, they are
> insideous, it takes a lot more
> work now for the mage to maintain a lifestyle which
> is conducive to
> retaining all her magic.
> (this is a major bonus as I'm trying to get her to
> loose at least one point
> so that I can introduce her to Geasa and from there
> to Initiation (to slow
> down initiation a little I want to get her removing
> geasa occasionally.)
>
> I would simply say that Stim burnout and Focus
> addictions are like stress
> fractures and blown out knees in an athlete, simply
> the result of trying to
> do too much.
>
>
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Message no. 71
From: korishinzo@*******.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Essence
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 17:05:29 +0000
>From: Damion Milliken

> > <Snip very good Essence explanation>

>Overall I really like your explanation. It's about the same as the SRII
>"aural/astral template" explanation, and it fits well with the SR world
>view. I've a couple of points, though.

> > What allows a dead thing, a corpse, to replenish its essence by > >
>stealing it (vampires, ghouls, etc)?

>Technically, in SR, such creatures are not dead. They have a magical
>infection. Of course, it could be easily argued under your system that
> >such a magical infection causes a rapid and seriously damaging effect >on
>the astral-physical matching (much more than a physical infection). >Such a
>rapid state of flux would be nearly impossible for the >metahuman systemn
>to keep up with, and Essence loss would result. >Explaining the draining
>capabilities could be pretty much as you have >already stated.

Good point. HMHVV sufferers are not dead, per se. They are dying at an
incredible rate, however, far far faster than the metaphysical or the
physical could hope to cope with. I look at vampires in SR like this. They
are heavily boosted by th disease, making them into a powerful carrier for
the virus, but it is burning them out. The metaphysical side of them is
almost cannibalising itself just to power the magically augmented/infected
body. This would be especially exsaxerbated by use of abilities like mist
form, which severely tax the physical side, requiring more power than ever
from the metaphysical side. Under this interpretation, vampires would
probably then burn essence when regenerating Deadly wounds or using
something like mist form, requiring them to feed sooner than normal. I'll
have to edit my notes a bit to reflect this. Thanks.

> > Your True Pattern can never adjust to incorpaorate the change > >
>because the change keeps on happening, for as long as the cyberware > > is
>present. Once removed...AND once the last nanite had "died" and > >
been
>flushed from your system...the essence comes back, or more > >
>accurately, your physical and metaphysical selves regain their > >
>harmony.

>A metahuman body is continually adjusting to continues changes all the
> >time, though. Living in a large sprawl, a metahuman will be >continually
>exposed to, say, airborne contaminants. This is a state of >flux - such
>things come and go continually. But they do not grossly >adversely affect
>the metahuman's Essence. I would say that it is >possible, for a metahuman
>to not lose Essence in a rapidly changing, >dynamic, situation (for example
>immune diseases).
>Likewise, it would seem possible, at least in principle, for a >metahuman
>system to adjust to a continually changing cybernetic >system. Adjustment
>might take longer, or be more difficult, but within >the framework of your
>theory, I would say that it would be quite >possible.

I thought of that. However, the cyberware has no metaphysical echo, no true
self. Yet it "lives". It is a dynamic organism, but mechanical ratheer
than biological. Hence, it can never adopt the metaphysical echo of the
implantee. It will always be an organism with a resonance distinctly
different from that of its organic host. Like a mechanical parasite that is
carried by the person, but that they don't actually catch. The systems are
cohabiting, but not truly symbiotic.

> > This creates a logical cap on "negative essence" of -6, since in
> >
>reality, you are returning to 6 with alterations of the > >
>metaphysical pattern. Neat, huh?

>I don't quite see how this works. If cybermancy is fooling the
>astral/physical synergy, then it can arbitrarily assign a maximum >value,
>depending upon how good the fooling is.

Actually, no, not under the explanation I am using here. I described
Essence as a ratio, or a percentage of the harmony between the physical and
metaphysical. You cannot have better than 100%. 6 is the highest that the
Essence can go in a person. Notice that Essence draining critters can
exceed this. They can, in fact, achieve achieve a ration of 2 to 1, or
200%. They charge up their severely metaphysical self well over its
potential, and it drains away again, as the body burns itself out working on
overdrive. This answer s for me the question of whether powerful immortal
beings could drive their Essence up over 6. Answer: sure...if they want to
destabilize their metaphysical aura and become the victim of a specialized
non-contagious form of vampirism. If 6 = 100%, than cybermancy can only
bring you back to 6 (or -6 as recorded by the core rules). Anything beyond
that would destabilize the aura as discussed above, creating a vampiric
metaphysical presence, and probably feeding on the cybermantic spell before
anything else. Probably not what the corps are looking for when they set
out to make themselves a cyberzombie.

>Other than these points, your explanation is great!

Thanks! Sitting at work waiting for things to go wrong and demand my
attention tends to mean that my brain gets to sit and process things like
this for long periods of time. I'm glad it churned out something useful.
:)

Korishinzo

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Message no. 72
From: incubus@*********.zzn.com (James Zealey)
Subject: Essence
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 00:27:42 -0000
----------------Original Message From IceHeart--------------
I think that in the effort to divorce the metaphysical of shadowrun from anyone's present
day spiritual views, FASA may have created an area of irevocable confusion. This
confusion is then further compounded by the references to "Essence" and its
mechanics. What follows is entirely my opinion, and in no way reflects the views of our
sponsors or the management.
...
I think it would serve our purposes well to look back at Earthdawn.There we find the
concept of a True Pattern, the metaphysical you. It is all that you are: past, present,
and future. When things happen that change you too far from your True Pattern, such as
losing your Name (the keystone of True Patterns), you can lose your magic and even your
life. Let's say that your Essence is the game mechanic that numerically represents the
relationship between the metaphysical you, and the physical you. How does that work? Now
we can look at cyber and bio a little differently.
--------------End Original Message From IceHeart-------------

I'll not quote the entire message - I can't really seperate out the parts I want to talk
about from all the rest.

If we're going back to EarthDawn, then we're moving into Named things - a Name grants
something power, and makes it a discrete entity unto itself.

Also in EarthDawn, we have blood charms. They take some power of the user, and in return
grant him some effect. Like magical cyberware. They disrupt his pattern.

I believe they do this because, in order to have magic invested in them, they must
themselves have a pattern. It is the interaction of the two patterns which weakens the
pattern of the user.

In Shadowrun, you get cyber implanted. You'll never really think of it as you. You'll
think of it as "this stuff in me". To some extent, that means you've Named (in
the magical EarthDawn way) it. Which means it has a pattern. Which means it interacts with
your pattern. Which means that your pattern is weakened and your essence is reduced. The
same applies to BioWare.

If you get a donor heart or arm or leg, again, you'll never really think of it as you.
Again it'll be Named, again it will interfere with your pattern, and reduce your essence.

If you get a cloned heart or arm or leg, it IS you. You and it share a Name and therefore
a pattern. It doesn't impact on your pattern or essence.

If you get second hand bio or cyberware, it's already been imprinted by someone else. It's
got their perceptions of what it is, which contributes to it's Name. Therefore it has a
stronger Name, and a stronger pattern. So it interferes with your pattern more and costs
more essence.

Deltaware is custom-built for YOU. That intent would possibly mean that it's pattern is
that bit more compatible with your own.

As for how essence-draining creatures work? They take a piece of your pattern, and try to
use it as a substitute for their own. Think of it like cutting off a piece of one jacket
to fix a hole in another. Sooner or later, the glue holding that patch in place will fail,
and the essence is lost. If it's a large patch, it's binding will fail gradually. An
essence draining creature is a patchwork jacket. At any given time, that jacket could be
double-ply and completely repaired, or down to it's last rags.

All in all, very similar to the original auric (I prefer it to aural - that relates it to
the ear more...) template theory. With a few extra little nuances, like the fact that
under ED, the average piece of cyberware would probably qualify as a pattern item, and
therefore would be able to have threads woven to it (sort of like a weapon focus, only it
could apply to any skill you have, not just combat). It also may be possible to somehow
integrate the pattern of your cyberware with you (like deltaware on a mystical level) to
further reduce the pattern conflict and essence costs.


"Your gun has 'replica'
written down the side, mine
has 'Ares HVAR'..."

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Message no. 73
From: l-hansen@*****.tele.dk (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: Essence
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 20:48:51 +0200
From: "Ice Heart" <korishinzo@*******.com>
<Snip>
> Good point. HMHVV sufferers are not dead, per se. They are
dying at an
> incredible rate, however, far far faster than the metaphysical
or the
> physical could hope to cope with.

That incredible rate is equal to 1 point off essence every month,
far to low IMO.

> I look at vampires in SR like this. They
> are heavily boosted by th disease, making them into a powerful
carrier for
> the virus, but it is burning them out. The metaphysical side
of them is
> almost cannibalising itself just to power the magically
augmented/infected
> body. This would be especially exsaxerbated by use of
abilities like mist
> form, which severely tax the physical side, requiring more
power than ever
> from the metaphysical side. Under this interpretation,
vampires would
> probably then burn essence when regenerating Deadly wounds or
using
> something like mist form, requiring them to feed sooner than
normal. I'll
> have to edit my notes a bit to reflect this. Thanks.

I've always thought that the Essence Loss weakness was way to
weak.

Linking the Essence Loss with some of the powers would be a very
efficient way to get vampires into a feeding frenzy. As the rules
stand now, a vampire (or other Essence Loss/Darin creature) only
needs to drain 12 points of essence each year. This does mean
that there could be a bunch of vimpires in each building, and
nobody would even notice.

Lars
Message no. 74
From: loneeagle2061@*******.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Essence
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 08:30:12 +0000
>From: "Lars Wagner Hansen" <l-hansen@*****.tele.dk>
>Linking the Essence Loss with some of the powers would be a very
>efficient way to get vampires into a feeding frenzy. As the rules
>stand now, a vampire (or other Essence Loss/Darin creature) only
>needs to drain 12 points of essence each year. This does mean
>that there could be a bunch of vimpires in each building, and
>nobody would even notice.

But it would make them too much like White Wolf's vampires, not nessecarily
a bad thing I know but it is always good to have seperation between systems,
something people can point to and say "see, they are different." (or more
likely a lack of something to point to and say "See, they are the same.")
By the way, what does Essence Darin mean? :-)

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Message no. 75
From: Gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Essence
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 10:35:54 +0200
According to Lars Wagner Hansen, on Wed, 25 Sep 2002 the word on the street was...

> That incredible rate is equal to 1 point off essence every month,
> far to low IMO.
[snip]
> I've always thought that the Essence Loss weakness was way to
> weak.

Same here. Not that I've used vampires much in SR, but IMHO it'd be a lot better
to set the rate at 1 point per day or so. That way you get vampires who actually
need to go out and find someone to drain every week or so, rather than every six
months.

--
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I know all this and more
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