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Message no. 1
From: Cugel the Clever <cugel@**.NET>
Subject: Essence and body-index
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 01:36:50 +01.0
Hi, I'm back (well sort of...)

Last time at character generation when one of the players again made
a sammie with essence 0.5, I asked myself: how the frag does the
sammy or his doc know how much essence there's left? Does the doc use
a essence meter or something else. The longer I thought about it, the
sillier the body-index and essence rules started to sound. I'm kinda
thinking to use a hidden essence value where cyber gets a semi-random
value (now 0.5 essence will become between 0.4-0.6) and only give general
indications to my players how much is left. Like to hear your ideas
about it.

Thanks of the input,

Martin Steffens (Cugel@**.net / bdi05626@***.rhij.nl)
Geek Code v3.0:
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Message no. 2
From: "S.F. Eley" <gt6877c@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 00:12:19 -0400
Cugel writes:

> Last time at character generation when one of the players again made
> a sammie with essence 0.5, I asked myself: how the frag does the
> sammy or his doc know how much essence there's left? Does the doc use
> a essence meter or something else. The longer I thought about it, the
> sillier the body-index and essence rules started to sound. I'm kinda
> thinking to use a hidden essence value where cyber gets a semi-random
> value (now 0.5 essence will become between 0.4-0.6) and only give general
> indications to my players how much is left. Like to hear your ideas
> about it.

Hmmmmm, good point.. Of course, the problem goes far beyond that. How does
a mage know he only had 3 dice left to allocate to spell defense? Or the
rigger know that he doesn't have enough Good Karma left to learn upside down
motorized hang gliding? It wasn't until I heard the group shaman, speaking
IN CHARACTER, talking about spending Karma to bond a focus that I realized
how pervasive the statistics problem is.

My approach is just to ignore it.. As long as there are numbers where there
should be abstract ability and free will, you'll never achieve perfect role-
playing. There has to be a line somewhere, and I'm happy where it's drawn
in Shadowrun. If you think there should be a more realistic level of
uncertainty, then I think the rule modification you proposed is a good one.


Blessings,

_TNX._

--
Stephen F. Eley (-) gt6877c@*****.gatech.edu )-( Student Pagan Community
http://wc62.residence.gatech.edu| "Program flowering --
My opinions are my opinions. | Procedures, functions, data
Please don't blame anyone else. | Bloom effervescent."
Message no. 3
From: Andre' Selmer <031SEA@******.WITS.AC.ZA>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 08:07:09 +0200
:->Last time at character generation when one of the players again made
:->a sammie with essence 0.5, I asked myself: how the frag does the
:->sammy or his doc know how much essence there's left? Does the doc use
:->a essence meter or something else. The longer I thought about it, the
:->sillier the body-index and essence rules started to sound. I'm kinda
:->thinking to use a hidden essence value where cyber gets a semi-random
:->value (now 0.5 essence will become between 0.4-0.6) and only give general
:->indications to my players how much is left. Like to hear your ideas
:->about it.
:->
The way that we run essence is that cyberware draws its energy
from your metabolism. This is possible to measure as your body only
preduces X amount of energy, this amount just *happens* to be
identical to your essence. That taking place you can measure how much
more energy you can drain from the body before it goes into shock and
critical failour.

As for bioware well it places strain on the body. In our system, we
all decided the having a sam running around with the equivilent of 12
points of enchancements was to much, we allow the charatcers to have
6 points of cyberware/bioware combined.

Andre'
Man is a teller of stories, he lives by and is surrounded by his
own stories and those of other people, he sees everythings that
happens to him in terms of these stories and thus has to live
enacting them
-Sarte

GARFIELD !
-Jon
Message no. 4
From: Mark Steedman <RSMS@******.EEE.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 08:59:04 GMT
"S.F. Eley" writes

> Cugel writes:
>
> > Last time at character generation when one of the players again made
> > a sammie with essence 0.5, I asked myself: how the frag does the
> > sammy or his doc know how much essence there's left? Does the doc use
> > a essence meter or something else.
As you die from too much cyber in SR it could be watching life-signs
but you have a point.

> > I'm kinda
> > thinking to use a hidden essence value where cyber gets a semi-random
> > value (now 0.5 essence will become between 0.4-0.6) and only give general
> > indications to my players how much is left. Like to hear your ideas
> > about it.
Cyberpunk uses randomness as standard, and i have heard of folks not
revealing the rolls to players before. Though that games low humanity
stuff gives you a warning.

>
> Hmmmmm, good point.. Of course, the problem goes far beyond that. How does
> a mage know he only had 3 dice left to allocate to spell defense? Or the
> rigger know that he doesn't have enough Good Karma left to learn upside down
> motorized hang gliding?
They cannot, they are in the first instance aware they have say about
1/2 thier potential left, dice are players only, and in the latter
the expresion is still have problems with that practice. Simple
matter of we use dice to determine what happens and it simply cannot
be realistic, though approximations are usually good enough to enjoy
the results.

> It wasn't until I heard the group shaman, speaking
> IN CHARACTER, talking about spending Karma to bond a focus that I realized
> how pervasive the statistics problem is.
>
Actually there exists a FASA in character ref to Karma in one of the
books (recent i think, but not sure), als its equated to life-force
in the example about quickening - p43 Grimoire 2).

> My approach is just to ignore it.. As long as there are numbers
> where there
> should be abstract ability and free will, you'll never achieve perfect role-
> playing. There has to be a line somewhere, and I'm happy where it's drawn
> in Shadowrun.
agreed.

> If you think there should be a more realistic level of
> uncertainty, then I think the rule modification you proposed is a good one.
>
>
> Blessings,
>
> _TNX._
>
Mark
Message no. 5
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 17:56:36 +0930
Cugel the Clever wrote:
>
> Hi, I'm back (well sort of...)
>
> Last time at character generation when one of the players again made
> a sammie with essence 0.5, I asked myself: how the frag does the
> sammy or his doc know how much essence there's left? Does the doc use
> a essence meter or something else. The longer I thought about it, the
> sillier the body-index and essence rules started to sound. I'm kinda
> thinking to use a hidden essence value where cyber gets a semi-random
> value (now 0.5 essence will become between 0.4-0.6) and only give general
> indications to my players how much is left. Like to hear your ideas
> about it.

As a better idea... use the surgery rules that come with Street Sam (well,
they used to, it may have been dropped in the second ed). The cyber itself
costs the same as a base, but a good surgeon can reduce the essence, a bad
surgeon will increase it.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 6
From: Andre' Selmer <031SEA@******.WITS.AC.ZA>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 11:08:11 +0200
:->
:->As a better idea... use the surgery rules that come with Street Sam (well,
:->they used to, it may have been dropped in the second ed). The cyber itself
:->costs the same as a base, but a good surgeon can reduce the essence, a bad
:->surgeon will increase it.
:->
For some reason I thought that that was only for upgrading
cyberware. In fact I am pretty sure of that, although I the idea has
some merit but here comes along a slight problem Newbie Street Sam Joe
decides its time to put in some wires and dermals, rather than go for
the bottem of the range stuff he decides to go for the best there is
Wires 3 and Dermals 2: Total essence cost:6. Poping along to the
local shadowclinic he hires the best there is, Docs Rating 8. What
are the chances that Street Sam Joe is going to walk out of the
clinic sane. The doc is rolling 8 dice vs T#10. There not much chance
that the Docs going to get 3 successes (0% essence loss). Sratch one
character.

An alternative could be the following, yes the Doc rolls his skill
but rather have the T# vs the difficulty of the surgury and the
widespread use of the cyberware. For instance a data jack is so
common that it has a low T#, but something like a tactical comuputer,
well in the civilian market place show me where you can find a decent
military doctor

Only ideas that need to be fleshed out

Andre'

Man is a teller of stories, he lives by and is surrounded by his
own stories and those of other people, he sees everythings that
happens to him in terms of these stories and thus has to live
enacting them
-Sarte

GARFIELD !
-Jon
Message no. 7
From: Mark Steedman <RSMS@******.EEE.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 13:31:58 GMT
"Andre' Selmer" writes

> :->As a better idea... use the surgery rules that come with Street Sam (well,
> :->they used to, it may have been dropped in the second ed). The cyber itself
> :->costs the same as a base, but a good surgeon can reduce the essence, a bad
> :->surgeon will increase it.
> :->
> The doc is rolling 8 dice vs T#10. There not much chance
> that the Docs going to get 3 successes (0% essence loss). Sratch one
> character.
>
Yes i remember looking at this and wondering quite what skill doctor
a character would have to find to stand a fair chance.
Note, do not let them karma this roll!, it is a bit too useful to
get lots of successes on and the doc is doing the work.

> An alternative could be the following, yes the Doc rolls his skill
> but rather have the T# vs the difficulty of the surgury and the
> widespread use of the cyberware. For instance a data jack is so
> common that it has a low T#, but something like a tactical comuputer,
> well in the civilian market place show me where you can find a decent
> military doctor
>
> Only ideas that need to be fleshed out
>
reasonable, but as you say someone needs to do the huge job of
working out all the target numbers sensibly, never mind that most
folks are bound to disagree.

> Andre'
>
Mark
Message no. 8
From: "Lindblom Fredrik, Training" <fredrik.lindblom@*******.TELIA.SE>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 15:14:00 PDT
>Note, do not let them karma this roll!, it is a bit too useful to
>get lots of successes on and the doc is doing the work.

You can't spend karma on other people's rolls can you? If you're tranqued
out on the surgeons table? And he's (as you say) doing the job? Now maybe if
the surgeon is a PC he could use karma pool and/or team karma... But how
many characters are there with cybertech B/R, Biotech and other useful
skills at decent values?

Anyway, I don't allow use of karma pool when there is a 1month+ delay in
action, for example if the PCs want to install new 'warez. And I don't let
the mages heal a character that just had cyber/bioware installed to
reduce/eliminate time spent in hospital. I figure the body needs to adapt
itself, which is impossible with magical healing.

Now why did this come up? Sort of off-topic, hmmm...well.

Back to topic: Players not knowing how much essence has been spent.
Soulotion (sp?) : If both you and your players _enjoy_ it, go for it! But I
doubt your players will. I wouldn't, for sure. It's simply no fun.


MxM
Message no. 9
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 00:59:42 GMT
> Hi, I'm back (well sort of...)
> Last time at character generation when one of the players again made
> a sammie with essence 0.5, I asked myself: how the frag does the
> sammy or his doc know how much essence there's left? Does the doc use
> a essence meter or something else. The longer I thought about it, the
> sillier the body-index and essence rules started to sound. I'm kinda
> thinking to use a hidden essence value where cyber gets a semi-random
> value (now 0.5 essence will become between 0.4-0.6) and only give general
> indications to my players how much is left. Like to hear your ideas
> about it.

Well, Essence is a game-balance mechanic. So it doesn't really *have* to
make sense as long as the effect on the game is positive. I figure low
Essence as being neurochemical imbalances, and you could detect those.
So you could get a good idea of your Essence, at least in terms of the
"gee, sir, I really don't think implanting *that* would be a good idea
right now..." angle of what will fit.

Essence hardly comes up in my game except as a limit on cyber, and none
of the PCs around are below about 0.5 (usually they started at that in
generation, then upgraded and added into the spaces left by better 'ware
without losing any more). Unless it gets used for more than that (oh, yeah,
and magical healing problems) I wouldn't get overworried: too much book-
keeping for too little reward.

--
When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him.

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 10
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 19:29:17 +0200
>Hmmmmm, good point.. Of course, the problem goes far beyond that. How does
>a mage know he only had 3 dice left to allocate to spell defense? Or the
>rigger know that he doesn't have enough Good Karma left to learn upside down
>motorized hang gliding?

Or how does anyone know that he's only got 6 rounds left in his gun? Or how
actually do you decide to fire 8 rounds, no more and no less?


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
You want to but you can't, and if you do, you wish you hadn't
GC3.0: GAT/! dpu s:- !a>? C+(++) U P L E? W(++) N K- w+ O V? PS+ PE Y PGP-
t(+) 5 X R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G++ e h! !r(--) y? Unofficial Shadowrun
Guru :)
Message no. 11
From: Duke Diener <DukeDragon@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 16:34:31 -0400
Cugel wrote:

> I asked myself: how the frag does the
>sammy or his doc know how much essence there's left? Does the doc use
>a essence meter or something else.

The Doc doesn't know how much essence you have left. He doesn't care. He
will gladly install more than 6 essence points of hardware in your body. You
are just no longer "human/metahuman". 6 essence is the point (chosen
obviously for game balance) where you become more machine than "man/woman".

Body Index on the other hand is more easily defined. The bigger your natural
body, the more you can fit inside and the better it is able to cope with what
you've done to it.

Duke
Message no. 12
From: Cugel the Clever <cugel@**.NET>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 00:04:05 +01.0
On 4 Aug 95 at 13:31, Mark Steedman wrote:

> "Andre' Selmer" writes
>
> > :->As a better idea... use the surgery rules that come with Street
> > Sam (well, :->they used to, it may have been dropped in the second
> > ed). The cyber itself :->costs the same as a base, but a good
> > surgeon can reduce the essence, a bad :->surgeon will increase it.
> > :-> The doc is rolling 8 dice vs T#10. There not much chance that
> > the Docs going to get 3 successes (0% essence loss). Sratch one
> > character.

I always found this one of the strangest rules. Wouldn't it become
easier to inplant cyber better if the patient has more cyber? Take a
char with the cyberarm, he has a smartlink and wants to upgrade to
sml II. Now the wires in his arm can be changed without any pain or
risk to the patient only the chips in his head remain to be changed.
This should be easy, the base space for the chip is already there, so less
chance of damaging tissue. On a guy with a real arm the wires in his
arm would be much more difficult to replace.
And then look at the target numbers; for an avarage sam with essence
3 this becomes a 7! And you need at least 2-3 successes to retain your
essence (with an avarage skill of 6 for the street doc not very easy)!
The original operation to get the cyber in is /much/ easier and this
would normally be the more risky part. Look at shadowtech to see what
I mean: every chip there is placed on this cyber-brain interface
board, just open the skull take out the chip and replace it with a
new one. Putting the board inside the skull /that/ would be the most
difficult part, not upgrading it.

> Yes i remember looking at this and wondering quite what skill doctor
> a character would have to find to stand a fair chance.

Exactly my thought. The sam from above would need to find a doc
with a skill of 12 to stand a fair chance using the SSC rule!!

> > An alternative could be the following, yes the Doc rolls his skill
> > but rather have the T# vs the difficulty of the surgury and the
> > widespread use of the cyberware. For instance a data jack is so
> > common that it has a low T#, but something like a tactical
> > comuputer, well in the civilian market place show me where you can
> > find a decent military doctor

Sounds logical, but would require a lot of work and chances to
incorporate. You could also try 4 + essence cost (round down) as a
target number.

> reasonable, but as you say someone needs to do the huge job of
> working out all the target numbers sensibly, never mind that most
> folks are bound to disagree.

Not my problem; anyway, like Gurth paraphased me once (censored :) :
you mostly hear the complainers, the guys who like your idea have no
reason to post any remarks.

Martin Steffens (Cugel@**.net / bdi05626@***.rhij.nl)
Geek Code v3.0:
GLS d-(+) s+:+ a?(26) C+(++) U P? L? E? W+ N++ K? w+ O- M- V? PS+
PE- Y+ PGP t+(--) 5? X++ R+(++) tv b+++ DI? D++ G+ e++ h+(!) r y+
Message no. 13
From: Mr Bob Sagittarian <habelmon@********.CS.ADELAIDE.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 10:55:15 +0930
>
> :->Last time at character generation when one of the players again made
> :->a sammie with essence 0.5, I asked myself: how the frag does the
> :->sammy or his doc know how much essence there's left? Does the doc use
> :->a essence meter or something else. The longer I thought about it, the
> :->sillier the body-index and essence rules started to sound. I'm kinda
> :->thinking to use a hidden essence value where cyber gets a semi-random
> :->value (now 0.5 essence will become between 0.4-0.6) and only give general
> :->indications to my players how much is left. Like to hear your ideas
> :->about it.
> :->

I think the main problem with players playing a character with low is
that they tend not to play low-Essence. Being homicidal and detached is what
low-Essence is all about, yet most players act as if having four cyberlimbs
made no difference to your everyday life.
Not good.



--

Bob Sagittarian Odds & Ends
habelmon@********.cs.adelaide.edu.au
stimpy@****.student.adelaide.edu.au
Message no. 14
From: Dave Stone <dstone@******.DREAMSCAPE.COM>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 23:02:15 -0400
On Fri, 4 Aug 1995, Lindblom Fredrik, Training wrote:
> You can't spend karma on other people's rolls can you? If you're tranqued
> out on the surgeons table? And he's (as you say) doing the job? Now maybe if
> the surgeon is a PC he could use karma pool and/or team karma... But how
> many characters are there with cybertech B/R, Biotech and other useful
> skills at decent values?

<Raises Hand> I like "Jack of All Trades" Characters, and maybe
four of my characters had values starting out of Cybertech B/R, Biotech
and other medical stuff at 5 at start, and by the time I retired 'em, it
was at 8...

Dave

| David Stone -- dstone@******.dreamscape.com |
| "Five ride forth, and four return. Above the watchers shall he |
| proclaim himself, bannered across the sky in fire..." |
Message no. 15
From: Dave Stone <dstone@******.DREAMSCAPE.COM>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 23:54:02 -0400
On Sat, 5 Aug 1995, Mr Bob Sagittarian wrote:
> I think the main problem with players playing a character with low is
> that they tend not to play low-Essence. Being homicidal and detached is what
> low-Essence is all about, yet most players act as if having four cyberlimbs
> made no difference to your everyday life.
> Not good.

I'd have to disagree. Cyberpsychosis, as this has been called,
is, in my opinion, very unrealistic. In the rec.games.frp.cyber echo,
there was a huge arguement on it. More or less, I *don't* thing that
having cyberware will destroy your empathy, or any of that stuff...

Dave

| David Stone -- dstone@******.dreamscape.com |
| "Five ride forth, and four return. Above the watchers shall he |
| proclaim himself, bannered across the sky in fire..." |
Message no. 16
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 15:37:10 +0930
Mr Bob Sagittarian wrote:
>
> I think the main problem with players playing a character with low is
> that they tend not to play low-Essence. Being homicidal and detached is what
> low-Essence is all about, yet most players act as if having four cyberlimbs
> made no difference to your everyday life.
> Not good.

Bob, you've been playing too much CP2020. This discussion comes up fairly
regularly, and no-one has ever come up with a reason why having your arms
chopped off and replaced would make you homicidal or detached or whatever.
Cyberpyschosis is not part of the Shadowrun system.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 17
From: Jason Ustica <usticaj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 00:12:53 -0700
On Sat, 5 Aug 1995, Robert Watkins wrote:

> Bob, you've been playing too much CP2020. This discussion comes up fairly
> regularly, and no-one has ever come up with a reason why having your arms
> chopped off and replaced would make you homicidal or detached or whatever.
> Cyberpyschosis is not part of the Shadowrun system.

So are you saying that a character who has .1 essence is totally normal,
and if he/she loses that .1 essence, they suddonly fall over dead?? Come
on! There has to be something happening to the body or mind in between 6
essence and 0 essence! While it might not be so dramatic as the Cyberpunk
system, there would at least be an attitude change. Also, the Cyberpunk
system injects some gritty darkness into the experience, something which
Shadowrun definitely lacks. Shadowrun's atmosphere is a carload of circus
clowns compared to Cyberpunk. Don't get me wrong, I think SR is superior
to CP, but I think it could use some of CP's dark atmosphere.

----------------------------------------------------------
Jason Ustica | usticaj@****.com | Lancaster, CA
----------------------------------------------------------
*Sorry, no geek code, no stupid quotes, no lame web sites*
Message no. 18
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 16:53:00 +0930
Jason Ustica wrote:
> So are you saying that a character who has .1 essence is totally normal,
> and if he/she loses that .1 essence, they suddonly fall over dead?? Come
> on! There has to be something happening to the body or mind in between 6
> essence and 0 essence! While it might not be so dramatic as the Cyberpunk
> system, there would at least be an attitude change.

Why on earth would there be an attitude change? What I do is say that at
low essences levels (0.3 and going down), the body systems are beginning to
fall over. This cause health problems and whatnot. But it's a physiological
effect, not a psychological effect.

> Also, the Cyberpunk
> system injects some gritty darkness into the experience, something which
> Shadowrun definitely lacks. Shadowrun's atmosphere is a carload of circus
> clowns compared to Cyberpunk. Don't get me wrong, I think SR is superior
> to CP, but I think it could use some of CP's dark atmosphere.

Depends on how you play it. The darkest campaigns I've played have had
almost no cyber, almost no magic, and have focused entirely on the social
interactions of the players. Trust me, the world's a darker place when
you're only one of the mob, almost, and you're too busy scratching out a
living to afford the best cyber and magic nuyen can buy.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 19
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 10:30:32 +0200
>I always found this one of the strangest rules. Wouldn't it become
>easier to inplant cyber better if the patient has more cyber? Take a
>char with the cyberarm, he has a smartlink and wants to upgrade to
>sml II. Now the wires in his arm can be changed without any pain or
>risk to the patient only the chips in his head remain to be changed.
>This should be easy, the base space for the chip is already there, so less
>chance of damaging tissue. On a guy with a real arm the wires in his
>arm would be much more difficult to replace.

The only way to do things like this is define the body area they occupy and
how much Essence they cost in that body area. For a smartlink, something
like: .1 Essence in the hand, .15 Essence in the arm, .1 Essence in the
shoulder/neck, and .15 Essence in the head.
Then you can say "Yeah, you've got a cyberarm, so the smartlink costs .25
Essence less than normal." But you'd have to do it for _every_ piece of
cyberware, from cortex bombs to wired refs-3. You also could put lots more
cyber into someone if you choose the right combination of cyberlimbs and
othter cyberware... Many people will yell "MUNCHKIN!!" here, though I won't
-- not if you apply it sensibly :)

>Putting the board inside the skull /that/ would be the most
>difficult part, not upgrading it.

I agree. The extra essence loss from replacing a part makes not much sense
to me, maybe you should apply those rules only for the actual implantation
-- let the doc make a skill test and apply extra or less Essence cost
depending on the successes rolled.

>Not my problem; anyway, like Gurth paraphased me once (censored :) :
>you mostly hear the complainers, the guys who like your idea have no
>reason to post any remarks.

Yeah, well, that's usually true isn't it? BTW, how bad was my language this
time, that you had to censor it? :)


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
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Guru :)
Message no. 20
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 10:30:44 +0200
>So are you saying that a character who has .1 essence is totally normal,
>and if he/she loses that .1 essence, they suddonly fall over dead?? Come
>on! There has to be something happening to the body or mind in between 6
>essence and 0 essence! While it might not be so dramatic as the Cyberpunk
>system, there would at least be an attitude change.

I don't buy cyberpsychosis in any way. I actually play it much the way you
describe it -- come below 0 Essence and you die. As long as you're above it,
you're fine... Of course I'm anxiously waiting for Cybertech to come out :)

>Also, the Cyberpunk
>system injects some gritty darkness into the experience, something which
>Shadowrun definitely lacks. Shadowrun's atmosphere is a carload of circus
>clowns compared to Cyberpunk. Don't get me wrong, I think SR is superior
>to CP, but I think it could use some of CP's dark atmosphere.

Not too difficult to do that: just put it in while you're GMing. Describe
the world as a dark and cynical place where they'll kill you for the
soy-sandwich you're holding, instead of the happy merry-go-round it appears
your SR world is :)


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Wicked mental dope
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Guru :)
Message no. 21
From: Dave Stone <dstone@******.DREAMSCAPE.COM>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 09:08:27 -0400
On Sat, 5 Aug 1995, Jason Ustica wrote:
> So are you saying that a character who has .1 essence is totally normal,
> and if he/she loses that .1 essence, they suddonly fall over dead?? Come
> on! There has to be something happening to the body or mind in between 6
> essence and 0 essence! While it might not be so dramatic as the Cyberpunk
> system, there would at least be an attitude change. Also, the Cyberpunk
> system injects some gritty darkness into the experience, something which
> Shadowrun definitely lacks. Shadowrun's atmosphere is a carload of circus
> clowns compared to Cyberpunk. Don't get me wrong, I think SR is superior
> to CP, but I think it could use some of CP's dark atmosphere.

I've played CP, SR, and quite a few other games with
Cyberpsychosis. SR has the best system. Essence doesn't measure how
"insane" you are. It measures how much of your 'aura' has been damaged.
The reason I like this is SR doesn't take a real-world thing and change
it, it creates its own logic. Now, a person's aura may have to do with
his magic susceptibility(sp?), and resistance to magic(due to his
connection to the magic of the world), but I doubt having a damaged aura
will kill him. Now, if his aura dies...;)

Dave

| David Stone -- dstone@******.dreamscape.com |
| "Five ride forth, and four return. Above the watchers shall he |
| proclaim himself, bannered across the sky in fire..." |
Message no. 22
From: Blade Hunter <bladehnt@*********.NET>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 09:25:43 -0500
At 16:53 8/5/95, Robert Watkins wrote:
>Why on earth would there be an attitude change? What I do is say that at
>low essences levels (0.3 and going down), the body systems are beginning to
>fall over. This cause health problems and whatnot. But it's a physiological
>effect, not a psychological effect.

I really don't understand why this thread is continuing. Did FASA errata the
paragraph starting the Cyberware section? It says something about the edge of
sanity (though this doesn't have to be homicidal...imagine what the character
might be going through at that point in life and figure out some quirk that
would make sense). Nice lil' role-playing thing.

Also, it's been well accepted that physiological changes in one's body can
effect that one's psychology. Then we also have stuff about the nueral
connection, added senses, social view points....bah, we could also get all
mystical about damage to auras and such, too....or maybe it's one's worry about
all of these possible stuffings that breaks him down.

Of course, most of the players in my campaign already role-play their
characters with a touch of insanity and more than a couple lil' quirks....
Message no. 23
From: Dave Stone <dstone@******.DREAMSCAPE.COM>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 14:41:10 -0400
On Sat, 5 Aug 1995, Blade Hunter wrote:
> would make sense). Nice lil' role-playing thing.

I can roleplay my character fine without having him go insane.
Black Feather is quite a well-made char, thanks very much!;)

> Also, it's been well accepted that physiological changes in one's body can
> effect that one's psychology. Then we also have stuff about the nueral
> connection, added senses, social view points....bah, we could also get all

Yes, physiological changes affect one's psychology. But those
are PROBLEMS. Not normal. A limb that's made to attach to a body and
connects to it correctly will not cause this. Otherwise, you'd have
things like body overstress for cyber as well, as the improper connection
breaks down when used overmuch. Most people who have prosthetic limbs
feel BETTER about themselves, due to the added mobility it is after no
limb.

Dave

| David Stone -- dstone@******.dreamscape.com |
| "Five ride forth, and four return. Above the watchers shall he |
| proclaim himself, bannered across the sky in fire..." |
Message no. 24
From: Cugel the Clever <cugel@**.NET>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 02:12:57 +01.0
On 5 Aug 95 at 10:55, Mr Bob Sagittarian wrote:

> I think the main problem with players playing a character with low is
> that they tend not to play low-Essence. Being homicidal and detached
> is what low-Essence is all about, yet most players act as if having
> four cyberlimbs made no difference to your everyday life.

I'm reluctant to answer this one, lest we start the infamous
cyberpsychosis discussion again, but this is a really unfounded
remark. This would make everyone with a protesis in this time a
potential homicidal and detached maniac. Let me say it again: protesis
have no effect on you psyche unless it gives the wearer more convidence.
The effects of cyber would be mostly secondary because the wearer
isn't able to adjust to his new state.
Now the cyber that could possibly have an effect on your psyche is
the headware cyber (the encephalon being the most obvious one) or
some of the bioware (cerebral booster, adrenal pump, etc.).

Martin Steffens (Cugel@**.net / bdi05626@***.rhij.nl)
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Message no. 25
From: Cugel the Clever <cugel@**.NET>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 02:12:55 +01.0
On 5 Aug 95 at 10:30, Gurth wrote:

> refs-3. You also could put lots more cyber into someone if you
> choose the right combination of cyberlimbs and othter cyberware...
> Many people will yell "MUNCHKIN!!" here, though I won't -- not if
> you apply it sensibly :)

You know what I do with munchkins.... :>
BTW good idea, I was thinking about such a system, and one of the
first things that occured to me was: Don't EVER show this to the
players :). Some of the systems already have package deals like the
radio (comlinks, crypto, etc.) and cybereyes (mods) so you could use
a more generalized system in which only closely related equipment can
be implanted in package deals like the orientation system with the
tactical, a base C^2 deck on which you can freely add all the
chips, smartlink and rangefinder, etc. But again these are only my ideas,
nobody is obliged to use them :)

> >Not my problem; anyway, like Gurth paraphased me once (censored :)
> >: you mostly hear the complainers, the guys who like your idea have
> >no reason to post any remarks.
>
> Yeah, well, that's usually true isn't it? BTW, how bad was my
> language this time, that you had to censor it? :)

It was my original comment that was censored by myself :) You used it
once on the list but without translating it into English (luckily :)

Martin Steffens (Cugel@**.net / bdi05626@***.rhij.nl)
Geek Code v3.0:
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Message no. 26
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 10:03:54 +0200
> I've played CP, SR, and quite a few other games with
>Cyberpsychosis. SR has the best system. Essence doesn't measure how
>"insane" you are. It measures how much of your 'aura' has been damaged.

But note that this only makes sense in an SR-like game. If you did the same
in CP2020 (like, create a new stat called "Aura" :), and say you die when
your aura reaches 0 it makes just as little sense as the current Humanity.
All IMHO, naturally :)


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Wicked mental dope
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Guru :)
Message no. 27
From: Dave Stone <dstone@******.DREAMSCAPE.COM>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 04:54:41 -0400
On Sun, 6 Aug 1995, Gurth wrote:
> But note that this only makes sense in an SR-like game. If you did the same
> in CP2020 (like, create a new stat called "Aura" :), and say you die when
> your aura reaches 0 it makes just as little sense as the current Humanity.
> All IMHO, naturally :)

<G> True. But, since I don't play CP2020 anymore, it doesn't
matter, so neh!;) Seriously, I just don't see any reality in the
cyberpsychosis arguement. So, I don't use it any the other games I use
besides Shadownrun(TORG, and three I wrote meself...;)

Dave

| David Stone -- dstone@******.dreamscape.com |
| "Five ride forth, and four return. Above the watchers shall he |
| proclaim himself, bannered across the sky in fire..." |
Message no. 28
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 18:56:11 +1000
Duke Diener writes:

> The Doc doesn't know how much essence you have left. He doesn't care. He
> will gladly install more than 6 essence points of hardware in your body. You
> are just no longer "human/metahuman". 6 essence is the point (chosen
> obviously for game balance) where you become more machine than "man/woman".

It's also the point where you become more dead than alive - a little more
serious than more machine than man I think.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

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Message no. 29
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 19:03:23 +1000
Lindblom Fredrik, Training writes:

> You can't spend karma on other people's rolls can you? If you're tranqued
> out on the surgeons table? And he's (as you say) doing the job?

It depends how you read the rules. Under the karma rules for re-rolling
failures, it say: "A character can use 1 point from the karma pool to
re-roll any test dice that failed." It doesn't specifically say that the
spender of the karma needed to be the one making the roll... It is, however,
the way that I interpret the rule.

> And I don't let the mages heal a character that just had cyber/bioware
> installed to reduce/eliminate time spent in hospital. I figure the body
> needs to adapt itself, which is impossible with magical healing.

I allow it for cyber, after all it says that the cyber is fully integrated
after the surgery wounds are healed. And it makes some degree of sense too,
after all, what are interface units for? To adapt the cyber to the body so's
that each can recognise the other. No time needed for these to get used to
each other, it's all preprogrammed in. I don't allow it for bioware however,
as it does need to be integrated into the body properly. I allow the surgery
wounds to be healed from bioware implanatation, but the bioware won't
function 'till you've given it time to adjust and integrate to the body.

> Back to topic: Players not knowing how much essence has been spent.
> Soulotion (sp?) : If both you and your players _enjoy_ it, go for it! But I
> doubt your players will. I wouldn't, for sure. It's simply no fun.

True, but it would introduce an extra element of fear of getting lots of
cyber implanted. Not that I plan to use it though, but it could be fun.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

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Message no. 30
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 19:24:36 +1000
Cugel the Clever writes:

> I always found this one of the strangest rules. Wouldn't it become
> easier to inplant cyber better if the patient has more cyber?

Well, the obvious argument against this is complexity. The more wiring,
computational ability and neural connections you shove into a person, the
tricker it gets to make sure it all works correctly. Like comparing a
network of computers to a single stand alone desktop. The network, which
involves multiple computers, is a fair degree more complex and involved than
the single computer. It's also more likely to be prone to failure of the
interconnected components.

> Take a char with the cyberarm, he has a smartlink and wants to upgrade to
> sml II. Now the wires in his arm can be changed without any pain or risk to
> the patient only the chips in his head remain to be changed. This should be
> easy, the base space for the chip is already there, so less chance of
> damaging tissue. On a guy with a real arm the wires in his arm would be much
> more difficult to replace.

Unless you subscribe to the essence is a measure of the soundness of the
person's aura theory. Then it'd just get worse and worse and worse. Once one
bit of cyber is installed, it will screw your aura a certain amount. Now, if
you take that bit out, your aura is still screwed (you don't get your
essence back). Now if you put in another bit of 'ware, then it will also
screw your aura. Each bit of cyber may distort your aura in a slightly
different manner, which means you could well end up losing essence forever
if you replaced one bit of cyber with another bit.

Gurth writes:

> The only way to do things like this is define the body area they occupy and
> how much Essence they cost in that body area. For a smartlink, something
> like: .1 Essence in the hand, .15 Essence in the arm, .1 Essence in the
> shoulder/neck, and .15 Essence in the head.

This is of course if you believe that essence is directly related to the
amount of neural connections/body space/size/etc of replacement involved. If
it is a measure of the corruption of the users aura, then it would matter a
lesser amount if it were to some degree of overlapping in processes or
physical location with other cybersystems. After all, the change to the
users psyche and attitudes is very similar regardless of what amount of meat
is augmented or replaced. A smartlink will give the user the same
alterations and differences from a normal (meta)human whether it's half in a
cyberarm or not. However, this argument is obviously flawed since you _can_
get a half price smartlink if you already have a cyberarm, and you _can_ get
free cyberwaepons if you already have a cyberarm.

So perhaps there is a degree of both happening. Essence loss relates,
mayhaps, to both the degredation to the aura, and the degree of natural body
parts/processes it replaces or augments. This way bone lacing has a reason
for costing so damn much essence, even though it has no nueral conenctions
at all - it just modifies the aura so damn much. And a compromise can
explain the half price smartlinks a person with a cyberarm can obtain.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

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Message no. 31
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 20:39:20 +1000
Jason Ustica writes:

> So are you saying that a character who has .1 essence is totally normal,
> and if he/she loses that .1 essence, they suddonly fall over dead?? Come
> on! There has to be something happening to the body or mind in between 6
> essence and 0 essence!

Yeah, there is. The character becomes more difficult to affect with certain
spells. He becomes more prone to the paranormal attacks of certain
creatures. His aura changes to reflect the degree of enhancement. If he is
magical, then his ability to work magic is reduced.

> While it might not be so dramatic as the Cyberpunk system, there would at
> least be an attitude change. Also, the Cyberpunk system injects some gritty
> darkness into the experience, something which Shadowrun definitely lacks.
> Shadowrun's atmosphere is a carload of circus clowns compared to Cyberpunk.
> Don't get me wrong, I think SR is superior to CP, but I think it could use
> some of CP's dark atmosphere.

My answer to this is that the atmosphere of a game is what _you_ make it.
My other suggestion is that if you're so taken with CP2020's humanity rules,
then use 'em in SR.

Sascha Pabst writes:

> IMHO it's more a kind of scale to measure how much people still _feel_
> human. When a person stuffs so much c'ware into himself that he starts
> defining himself by the "machine parts" and no longer by "human"
standarts,
> he's well over the edge.
>
> On the other hand today's "cyberware" is still just a (worse) replacement
> for malfunctioning body parts. Considering this, the essence cost of
> -say- the "normal" cyberlimb _without_further_modification_ should be
> much lower, and only the modifications count on Essence really hard...

Yeah, that's inline with the aura theory. The more the cyber deviates from
the standard human, the more essence it costs. So therefore a regular,
non-enhanced cyberlimb would be cheap. While an enhanced to the max
cyberlimb, complete with cyber toaster and steak grille, would be a lot more
essence unfriendly. Unfortunately, this is not the case. So therefore the
aura theory is flawed. However, I still think it has quite a reasonable
grasp of the SR situation, and explains a game balancing rule with decent
enough reasoning (better than humanity in CP2020 thats for sure). With a bit
of fiddling, comprosmising, and adjusting, it covers essense quite ok I
think.

Jason Ustica writes:

> Gee, I wonder why? Maybe because the real life stuff above is nothing
> compared the caliber of cyberware in the SR universe. Pacemakers,
> artificial hearts, all that is _nothing_ compared to virtually replacing
> your nervous system (wired reflexes), converting your muscles and ...

Well, even so, a complete hip replacement still doesn't cost a scaric of
essence, and one could compare that to a minor portion of one's body
getting bone lacing or similar.

> > It is obvious that cyberpsychosis (and essences) is an artificial game
> > balance mechanism to prevent people from making unkillable Gun Bunnies.
>
> Yes, but why have it only represent some arbitrary number, when it can be
> another aspect of roleplaying? Shadowrun is a roleplaying game last I
> checked.

"Even 0 Essence is tough to handle, promoting despair and melancholy. Folks
of such low Essence walk the thin edge of sanity." pg 246 SRII.

I'd think this gives people ample opportunity for introducing role-playing
aspects to having low essence should they desire to.

Gurth writes:

> But note that this only makes sense in an SR-like game. If you did the same
> in CP2020 (like, create a new stat called "Aura" :), and say you die when
> your aura reaches 0 it makes just as little sense as the current Humanity.
> All IMHO, naturally :)

That's right. That's also why cyberphychosis in CP202 makes very little
sense. Essence, with it's magical explanation, has some spine in SR, unlike
cyberpsychosis.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

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Message no. 32
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 13:52:59 +0200
>> Many people will yell "MUNCHKIN!!" here, though I won't -- not if
>> you apply it sensibly :)
>
>You know what I do with munchkins.... :>

You mean: You know what _I_ did with _your_ munchkins :)

>> >Not my problem; anyway, like Gurth paraphased me once (censored :)
>> >: you mostly hear the complainers, the guys who like your idea have
>> >no reason to post any remarks.
>>
>> Yeah, well, that's usually true isn't it? BTW, how bad was my
>> language this time, that you had to censor it? :)
>
>It was my original comment that was censored by myself :) You used it
>once on the list but without translating it into English (luckily :)

Ah. That one. "Ik baal er altijd van ... (enzovoort)" right? *grin*


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Wicked mental dope
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Guru :)
Message no. 33
From: Duke Diener <DukeDragon@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 11:55:38 -0400
Damion Milliken wrote:
>Duke Diener writes:
>
>> The Doc doesn't know how much essence you have left. He doesn't care. He
>> will gladly install more than 6 essence points of hardware in your body.
You
>> are just no longer "human/metahuman". 6 essence is the point (chosen
>> obviously for game balance) where you become more machine than
"man/woman".
>
>It's also the point where you become more dead than alive - a little more
>serious than more machine than man I think.

There was a rumor a long time ago about rules for cyborgs or other creatures
with essence < 0. There are also some cyborg like beings in one of the books
(must be one of the older books).

Where does it state that if your essence decreases below 0 you die? SS says
that if you are having surgery done and the doc would drive your essence
below 0, he stops the operation before you die and leaves you with 0 essence.
That is the only reference to death and reduced essence I can find.

Duke
Message no. 34
From: Duke Diener <DukeDragon@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 11:52:06 -0400
Damion Milliken wrote:
>Lindblom Fredrik, Training writes:
>> You can't spend karma on other people's rolls can you? If you're tranqued
>> out on the surgeons table? And he's (as you say) doing the job?
>
>It depends how you read the rules. Under the karma rules for re-rolling
>failures, it say: "A character can use 1 point from the karma pool to
>re-roll any test dice that failed." It doesn't specifically say that the
>spender of the karma needed to be the one making the roll... It is, however,
>the way that I interpret the rule.

Isn't this what team karma is for?

Duke
Message no. 35
From: "Victor Rodriguez, Jr" <sedahdro@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 16:08:00 EST
Duke writes:
>Where does it state that if your essence decreases below 0 you die? SS says
>that if you are having surgery done and the doc would drive your essence
>below 0, he stops the operation before you die and leaves you with 0 essence.
> That is the only reference to death and reduced essence I can find.
I shall quote again page 246 SR2 rulebook under the heading of cyberware:
"If a character's Essence ever falls below 0, his life force ebbs and he
will die in short order."
---Sedah Drol
Message no. 36
From: Allen Versfeld <aversfel@****.CS.UNP.AC.ZA>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 10:26:14 +0200
On Sat, 5 Aug 1995, Mr Bob Sagittarian wrote:

> I think the main problem with players playing a character with low is
> that they tend not to play low-Essence. Being homicidal and detached is what
> low-Essence is all about, yet most players act as if having four cyberlimbs
> made no difference to your everyday life.
> Not good.

Our party are the most bloodthirsty, homocidal, sociopathic, evil,
coldhearted, merciless, vicious shadowrunners on the planet.
they have no reputation, because they kill everyone they meet.
They all have essence less than 1.
But they will be punished - in a recent adventure, they assassinated
the head (executive? chief?) of lone star, plus 20 really important
guests of his (corporate executives, yakuza bosses, etc)

For some reason, though, they have since been reluctant to play those
characters...
Message no. 37
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 10:40:17 +0200
>> The only way to do things like this is define the body area they occupy and
>> how much Essence they cost in that body area. For a smartlink, something
>> like: .1 Essence in the hand, .15 Essence in the arm, .1 Essence in the
>> shoulder/neck, and .15 Essence in the head.
>
>This is of course if you believe that essence is directly related to the
>amount of neural connections/body space/size/etc of replacement involved.

Actually, I do. I know it's only a game mechanic but I've always thought of
Essence as being how much is still "you" instead of having been replaced
with metal and plastic. So I see someone with 0 Essence as not much more
than a skeleton with some vital organs, and a whole load of cyberware
screwed onto it.


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Wicked mental dope
GC3.0: GAT/! dpu s:- !a>? C+(++) U P L E? W(++) N K- w+ O V? PS+ PE Y PGP-
t(+) 5 X R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G++ e h! !r(--) y? Unofficial Shadowrun
Guru :)
Message no. 38
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 19:35:46 +1000
Gurth writes:

> Actually, I do. I know it's only a game mechanic but I've always thought of
> Essence as being how much is still "you" instead of having been replaced
> with metal and plastic. So I see someone with 0 Essence as not much more
> than a skeleton with some vital organs, and a whole load of cyberware
> screwed onto it.

Kinda gets to be a bit odd that a Tactical computer can cost 4+ Essence,
doesn't it? It replaces very little physically, so I don't think the size of
the thing could be what causes it's prohibitive Essence cost. It does,
however, alter the human animal somewhat significantly, turning it into a
combat expert system-human being cross. There's more to Essence costs than
physical size in my view.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a19 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 39
From: Andre' Selmer <031SEA@******.WITS.AC.ZA>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 11:57:43 +0200
:->Gurth writes:
:->
:->> Actually, I do. I know it's only a game mechanic but I've always thought of
:->
:->> Essence as being how much is still "you" instead of having been
replaced
:->> with metal and plastic. So I see someone with 0 Essence as not much more
:->> than a skeleton with some vital organs, and a whole load of cyberware
:->> screwed onto it.
:->
:->Kinda gets to be a bit odd that a Tactical computer can cost 4+ Essence,
:->doesn't it? It replaces very little physically, so I don't think the size of
:->the thing could be what causes it's prohibitive Essence cost. It does,
:->however, alter the human animal somewhat significantly, turning it into a
:->combat expert system-human being cross. There's more to Essence costs than
:->physical size in my view.
:->
Okay here a shot in the dark. What if the essence cost is really
related to the number of connections to nodes. The tactical computer
is linked a) to your cognative processes b) visual c) auditory d)
your own spaticual awarness and half a dozen other things. The
connections in the Biotech stat that the wires are laid down by
nanites of various kinds. Read it I can't recall all that much from
memory

Andre'
<031SEA@******.WITS.AC.ZA>

Its time for a new sig, when I think of one I'll append it.
-Andre'

Boom Boom Shake the Room !
-Phoenix, Pyromanical Hermetic Mage of Seattle 2053
Message no. 40
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 11:38:11 BST
hmmm.. bit slow these last few days, but heres goes :-


> Or how does anyone know that he's only got 6 rounds left in his gun? Or how
> actually do you decide to fire 8 rounds, no more and no less?

Easy, according to SR2, there's a counter on the back of the gun, just above
slide... or smsartguns feed the data straight to you, and you can set the gun
to only fire 8 rounds through the link...

as to you non sammies in the audience, you just oull the trigger till the gun
stops going bang and the slides locks back (or whatever for your model).


AS to essence; you aren't supposed to know as such, after all, they wouldn't
mention that bit about surgeons realising when they've put too much cyber
in, becuase your vitals are tailing off, so theye strip the last few bits
out, sew you back up, and you sit on 0 essence with half a set of wires
dangling out of you ;-)


Using karma, well in the 1st ed, it mentioned that one of the uses of karma
was to re-roll someone elses dice if they were trying to save your butt...
you know, like the team/NPC medic who doesn't karma of his own to keep you
alive. In this case, I'd let them re-roll it anyway, at least up to the point
where they can survive (0% essence penalty), but if they deliberately get
cyber fitted that would kill them unles they get 5 successes? Well, I'd be
tempted to fit it to them and then tell em that it doesn't work, and that
the team of surgeons had to remove some other bits to save their life :-)

Phil (Renegade)
Message no. 41
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 12:04:06 BST
> Actually, I do. I know it's only a game mechanic but I've always thought of
> Essence as being how much is still "you" instead of having been replaced
> with metal and plastic. So I see someone with 0 Essence as not much more
> than a skeleton with some vital organs, and a whole load of cyberware
> screwed onto it.

Heh, and skin and muscles, etc, and if you have bone-lacing? Heh :-)

Have you seen wolverine's skeleton in the X-men cartoon? Looks like
the tin man, when they said adamntium skeleton, I was thinking of a
honeycomb of adamantium within the body, same as bone-lacing...

Phil (Renegade)
Message no. 42
From: Andre' Selmer <031SEA@******.WITS.AC.ZA>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 13:12:47 +0200
:->
:->Easy, according to SR2, there's a counter on the back of the gun, just above
:->slide... or smsartguns feed the data straight to you, and you can set the gun

A point of couriosity, does the smartgun link come with a display
link ? The smartgun produces a cross where your gun is pointed as
well as giving a read out. This is in essence (forgive the pun) is
what a display link does. The rangefinder does the same ...

While I am on this topic, anyone have any use for a Maths Co. 1.
Apart from the fact it acts like an alarm clock, stopwatch (to 3
decimal places) and a +1d to maths.


:->AS to essence; you aren't supposed to know as such, after all, they wouldn't
:->mention that bit about surgeons realising when they've put too much cyber
:->in, becuase your vitals are tailing off, so theye strip the last few bits
:->out, sew you back up, and you sit on 0 essence with half a set of wires
:->dangling out of you ;-)

As it says in the SSC "thats damnright embarressing"
:->
:->
:->Using karma, well in the 1st ed, it mentioned that one of the uses of karma
:->was to re-roll someone elses dice if they were trying to save your butt...
:->you know, like the team/NPC medic who doesn't karma of his own to keep you
:->alive. In this case, I'd let them re-roll it anyway, at least up to the point
:->
My personal opinion would be that you can't use karma for others
rolls. But there again in our group we remove the option of good
karma and group karma. Each character recieves his/her own award and
spends as they see fit.

:->where they can survive (0% essence penalty), but if they deliberately get
:->cyber fitted that would kill them unles they get 5 successes? Well, I'd be
:->tempted to fit it to them and then tell em that it doesn't work, and that
:->the team of surgeons had to remove some other bits to save their life :-)
:->
In our campaign this happened to one of the characters, it was
resolved as such what went in last comes out first. (Exluding new the
cyberware being implanted)
Andre'
<031SEA@******.WITS.AC.ZA>

Its time for a new sig, when I think of one I'll append it.
-Andre'

Boom Boom Shake the Room !
-Phoenix, Pyromanical Hermetic Mage of Seattle 2053
Message no. 43
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 12:20:34 BST
> A point of couriosity, does the smartgun link come with a display
> link ? The smartgun produces a cross where your gun is pointed as
> well as giving a read out. This is in essence (forgive the pun) is
> what a display link does. The rangefinder does the same ...

If figure that it has a dedicated display link, that is hardwired for
the smart-data, ie targetting, weapon status (safety, trey, auto, deuce,
etc), barrel temperature, and silencer effectiveness (the last two are
from thw roks of Nigel Findley only, I think).

The range finder probably adds a new display with the range of the
target, whereas Smart-II (every sammy should have it) actually uses that
data to correct point of aim, and move it up for long-range targets,
rather than elaving the operator to manually correct her aim.


Erm, it's got a calculator, so you can mentally split the pay 7 ways and
tell the Johnson it's not enough all at the same time?

As to my cyber ramblings, I figured that they'd remove some of the bits
and pieces that they just fitted, just enough for the life signs to
stabilise (ie. 0 essence). And when they remove bits, I meant organs, as
in,
"the new dermal plating interefered with one of your livers, so
we had to remove it!"
"What do ya mean you only have one liver, I thought it was two?"
"That's kidney's bob!"

Phil (Renegade)

and of course brain damage for the headware, etc :-)
Message no. 44
From: Cugel the Clever <cugel@**.NET>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 16:28:12 +01.0
On 6 Aug 95 at 19:24, Damion Milliken wrote:

> Well, the obvious argument against this is complexity. The more
> wiring, computational ability and neural connections you shove into
> a person, the tricker it gets to make sure it all works correctly.
> Like comparing a network of computers to a single stand alone
> desktop. The network, which involves multiple computers, is a fair
> degree more complex and involved than the single computer. It's also
> more likely to be prone to failure of the interconnected components.

Yes, I know that from experience with my own computer :) But that
has no relevance to my question/remark. It could be an argument to
say that implanting cyber or bio gets more expensive if you already
got lots of it installed (not that I would use such a rule).

> Unless you subscribe to the essence is a measure of the soundness of
> the person's aura theory. Then it'd just get worse and worse and
> worse. Once one bit of cyber is installed, it will screw your aura a
> certain amount. Now, if you take that bit out, your aura is still
> screwed (you don't get your essence back). Now if you put in another
> bit of 'ware, then it will also screw your aura. Each bit of cyber
> may distort your aura in a slightly different manner, which means
> you could well end up losing essence forever if you replaced one bit
> of cyber with another bit.

Now that's an argument (and a very good one), but still there are a
few weak points in it. You assume that is when you upgrade the
complete piece is replaced. This is almost never done. Take the
example from above if you want to upgrade your trusty 486 to a (not
so trusty :) Pentium, you only have to replace a few parts; the
motherboard (maybe not even that, but only the processor), maybe
the memory and a few boards. The rest can stay.
Now this should also be the case when you upgrade your cyber (I'm not
to sure about bio...). So it would be more like you take out a little
chip attached to a board and replace it, chances are that the new
chip will "fit" in the gap left by the old one, or maybe take up a
little more space. A bit like the SCC-rule but only with /much/ lower
target numbers so that is more likely that upgrading costs less
essence than stated, than the other way.

Call me a Munchkin's GM if you want to, but I want to go for the
highest level of realism in my game, be it munchkin supporting or
not. BTW, I think that a GM should take care of munchkins, not the
rules.

Thanks for the input. I deleted the rest of the post, because I tend
to agree with you on these points.

Greetings,

Martin Steffens (Cugel@**.net / bdi05626@***.rhij.nl)
Geek Code v3.0:
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PE- Y+ PGP t+(--) 5? X++ R+(++) tv b+++ DI? D++ G+ e++ h+(!) r y+
Message no. 45
From: Ian Smith <KildTheCat@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 01:11:50 -0400
If you take to the idea that Essence is a rating of how much "you" is still
there physically, a lot of things sort of break down. For example, I have a
character who has almost no essence left - but few of his implants are
outside a very small region of his head ( sorry guys, no C2 ). So why is my
characters essence lower than many street sams who have muscles replaced all
over their body and skin replaced my plastic?
I think, personally, that the Essence rating is a sort of combination of the
cyberwares effect on the mentality of the character, and of the auric
integrity. The two effect eah other, so this makes sense. . . at least to me
:)
Message no. 46
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 09:39:05 +0200
>Kinda gets to be a bit odd that a Tactical computer can cost 4+ Essence,
>doesn't it?

Yep.

>It replaces very little physically, so I don't think the size of
>the thing could be what causes it's prohibitive Essence cost. It does,
>however, alter the human animal somewhat significantly, turning it into a
>combat expert system-human being cross. There's more to Essence costs than
>physical size in my view.

I'm currently holding the viewpoint that this whole thing is completely
superfluous. Who cares if cyberware changes your psyche or not? If you think
it does, go ahead be my guest and play a lunatic; if you think it doesn't,
then don't. Though maybe it would be nice playing a real civlized street
samurai with an Essence of 0... "Yes, my good fellow, I used to be _quite_
rude and mis-behaved, until I bought all this /marvelous/ cyberware... It
completely changed my personality around..." :)


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Wicked mental dope
GC3.0: GAT/! dpu s:- !a>? C+(++) U P L E? W(++) N K- w+ O V? PS+ PE Y PGP-
t(+) 5 X R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G++ e h! !r(--) y? Unofficial Shadowrun
Guru :)
Message no. 47
From: Andre' Selmer <031SEA@******.WITS.AC.ZA>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 10:33:37 +0200
:->>Kinda gets to be a bit odd that a Tactical computer can cost 4+ Essence,
:->>doesn't it?
:->
:->Yep.
:->
As an aside, it is very slightly pointless as well. The character
can predict who is going to hit him from where and even when.
Unfortunately meat isn't fast enough to respond to a decent set of
wires, which he doesn't have the essence for anyway..

:->>It replaces very little physically, so I don't think the size of
:->>the thing could be what causes it's prohibitive Essence cost. It does,
:->>however, alter the human animal somewhat significantly, turning it into a
:->>combat expert system-human being cross. There's more to Essence costs than
:->>physical size in my view.

Say what about putting one into a naturally vicous animal such as a
wolverine.... (I know we've had that thread already ! ;-))

:->I'm currently holding the viewpoint that this whole thing is completely
:->superfluous. Who cares if cyberware changes your psyche or not? If you think
:->it does, go ahead be my guest and play a lunatic; if you think it doesn't,
:->then don't. Though maybe it would be nice playing a real civlized street
:->samurai with an Essence of 0... "Yes, my good fellow, I used to be _quite_
:->rude and mis-behaved, until I bought all this /marvelous/ cyberware... It
:->completely changed my personality around..." :)

Wasn't there a book or module out in which the head honcho had two
guards who where cybered beyond their limits ?

Andre'
<031SEA@******.WITS.AC.ZA>

Its time for a new sig, when I think of one I'll append it.
-Andre'

Boom Boom Shake the Room !
-Phoenix, Pyromanical Hermetic Mage of Seattle 2053
Message no. 48
From: "Lindblom Fredrik, Training" <fredrik.lindblom@*******.TELIA.SE>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 10:49:00 PDT
>Wasn't there a book or module out in which the head honcho had two
>guards who where cybered beyond their limits ?

It was in "Never trust an Elf". At least they seemed to be cybered beyond
their limits. However, they no longer had what we call "free will". They
were machines created to serve their master. Bloody difficult to kill, in
any case. :)

They were called something fancy too. Something I've seen in another game
somewhere...now if I only could remember...


MxM
Message no. 49
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 11:32:34 +0200
>> Or how does anyone know that he's only got 6 rounds left in his gun? Or how
>> actually do you decide to fire 8 rounds, no more and no less?
>
>Easy, according to SR2, there's a counter on the back of the gun, just above
>slide... or smsartguns feed the data straight to you, and you can set the gun
>to only fire 8 rounds through the link...

Smartass :)

>as to you non sammies in the audience, you just oull the trigger till the gun
>stops going bang and the slides locks back (or whatever for your model).

That's what I meant -- if you've got a full clip/magazine/whatever left, how
the hell can you say "I fire 7 rounds" with a weapon whose cyclic rate
hovers near 1000rpm, and succeed at it?


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Wicked mental dope
GC3.0: GAT/! dpu s:- !a>? C+(++) U P L E? W(++) N K- w+ O V? PS+ PE Y PGP-
t(+) 5 X R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G++ e h! !r(--) y? Unofficial Shadowrun
Guru :)
Message no. 50
From: Dave Stone <dstone@******.DREAMSCAPE.COM>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 07:28:49 -0400
On Tue, 8 Aug 1995, Gurth wrote:
> then don't. Though maybe it would be nice playing a real civlized street
> samurai with an Essence of 0... "Yes, my good fellow, I used to be _quite_
> rude and mis-behaved, until I bought all this /marvelous/ cyberware... It
> completely changed my personality around..." :)

Thief!!! That's Charles Alexander, *my* character!!!;)
Hehehe... similar quote, though. "Well, well, well, my good chap, I
used to be quite the boar before I recieved these miracles of modern
science!" Bioware and Cyberware, though...

Dave

| David Stone -- dstone@******.dreamscape.com |
| "Five ride forth, and four return. Above the watchers shall he |
| proclaim himself, bannered across the sky in fire..." |
Message no. 51
From: Dave Stone <dstone@******.DREAMSCAPE.COM>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 07:32:36 -0400
On Tue, 8 Aug 1995, Andre' Selmer wrote:
> :->>Kinda gets to be a bit odd that a Tactical computer can cost 4+ Essence,
> :->>doesn't it?
> As an aside, it is very slightly pointless as well. The character
> can predict who is going to hit him from where and even when.
> Unfortunately meat isn't fast enough to respond to a decent set of
> wires, which he doesn't have the essence for anyway..

That's what Bioware is for. Or, magic. Or Special Cyberware if
you can swipe it from a corp!

Dave

| David Stone -- dstone@******.dreamscape.com |
| "Five ride forth, and four return. Above the watchers shall he |
| proclaim himself, bannered across the sky in fire..." |
Message no. 52
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 12:43:10 BST
>Wasn't there a book or module out in which the head honcho had two
>guards who where cybered beyond their limits ?

Never trust an elf it was, and there were three units, alpha, beta
(and, I assume) Gamma....

They were known as Hellions, and they were voluntary (near) full
borgs, just alittle bit of life-supporting organs, some brain and
by the picture, one eye..

And they were tough, they were also the first appearance of the
tri-barrel super-MG... damn them.


Wait for the cyber-techs handbook, and with a bit of luck, us GM's
will be able to build them (with official rules, I know we've all
done it already...haven't we?....)
Phil (Renegade)
Message no. 53
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 12:46:41 BST
> ... similar quote, though. "Well, well, well, my good chap, I
> used to be quite the boar before I recieved these miracles of modern
> science!" Bioware and Cyberware, though...

:) Hey, is your character insulting my Boar? Boar'd come round and hand
him his hoop if it wasn't for the fact that Olly promised to take him
skating later on...

Warning, anyone planning on being at the Seattle Ice-rink later on
this afternoon should probably take a rain-check, as 300 Kg of not-
very-good-at-skating troll with mil-spec ware is not a pleasant
thing to see bearing down on you :-)

Phil (Renegade)
Message no. 54
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 12:49:01 BST
> That's what I meant -- if you've got a full clip/magazine/whatever left, how
> the hell can you say "I fire 7 rounds" with a weapon whose cyclic rate
> hovers near 1000rpm, and succeed at it?

I don't know, but I do here from those nice people over at twilight 2K, that
it is possible for a fairly experienced operator to 90% of the time call
a three round burst from a fully auto weapon... admittedly the cyclic wasn't
quite 1K (more like 800), but it's not much different...

Hey, we all know why they did it, it's simpler for us poor GM's....heh.

Phil (Renegade)
Message no. 55
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 00:23:44 +1000
Andre' Selmer writes:

> Okay here a shot in the dark. What if the essence cost is really
> related to the number of connections to nodes. The tactical computer
> is linked a) to your cognative processes b) visual c) auditory d)
> your own spaticual awarness and half a dozen other things. The
> connections in the Biotech stat that the wires are laid down by
> nanites of various kinds. Read it I can't recall all that much from
> memory

Sounds OK except it doesn't work for things like bone lacing and dermal
armour, which have no neural connections, but still cost mucho Essence.

Cugel the Clever writes:

> Yes, I know that from experience with my own computer :) But that
> has no relevance to my question/remark. It could be an argument to
> say that implanting cyber or bio gets more expensive if you already
> got lots of it installed (not that I would use such a rule).

Yes, but increased complexity also makes for a more difficult time
integrating any new components into what you already have. During the
integration of the new component, it is quite likely that little things will
not match exactly, or that something will stuff up. And the more stuff you
already have in you, the more likely you are to damage the balance between
them and yourself, and them and each other, when you introduce new
components.

> You assume that is when you upgrade the complete piece is replaced. This
> is almost never done. Take the example from above if you want to upgrade
> your trusty 486 to a (not so trusty :) Pentium, you only have to replace a
> few parts; the motherboard (maybe not even that, but only the processor),
> maybe the memory and a few boards. The rest can stay. Now this should also
> be the case when you upgrade your cyber (I'm not to sure about bio...). So
> it would be more like you take out a little chip attached to a board and
> replace it, chances are that the new chip will "fit" in the gap left by the
> old one, or maybe take up a little more space. A bit like the SCC-rule but
> only with /much/ lower target numbers so that is more likely that upgrading
> costs less essence than stated, than the other way.

The chips and wiring contained in cyberware are not just dumped into the
users body. They are grown using nanites. To upgrade an old Tac-Computer
would require you to once again udnergo the nanite, nutrient bath and
resonator ordeal to get the new, extra layers of conducting material built
up inside your skull. Similarly when you get your wired refelxes upgraded
(no chips here though). Obviously one doesn't take out the old system,
however, the user will be forced to undergo all the implantation techniques
once again to get the upgrade, at further possible risk to his body's system.
Much simpler to do it all at once on the initial implanataion, only one
plan, only one set of nanites. The extra hassles and such associated with a
complete redo of the surgery, not to mention the need for changing what was
only meant to be a Rating x system to a Rating x+y system, could easily
enough cause complications and possible damage to the user. And it's even
worse if you are removing an entire system, imagine the difficulty of
getting nanites to go round and collect all the conducting material from a
Tac-Computer for example, very likely some will remain, or if not, then the
users body will certainly not be the exact same as it was prior to the
implanation of the thing - then if you go get some other system installed,
elsewhere in your body, it's no small wonder you'd be likely to lose a bit
of Essence in thr switch.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a19 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
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b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 56
From: Ian Smith <KildTheCat@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 19:03:50 -0400
>if you've got a full clip/magazine/whatever left, how
>the hell can you say "I fire 7 rounds" with a weapon whose >cyclic rate
>hovers near 1000rpm, and succeed at it?

Remember that in Shadowrun, for the pure sake of game balance and the sanity
of _all_ involved, cyclic rates hover closer to 10 or so rounds in one or two
seconds. . .miniguns go up to 15!!
Message no. 57
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 17:28:06 GMT
> > That's what I meant -- if you've got a full clip/magazine/whatever left, how
> > the hell can you say "I fire 7 rounds" with a weapon whose cyclic rate
> > hovers near 1000rpm, and succeed at it?
>
> I don't know, but I do here from those nice people over at twilight 2K, that
> it is possible for a fairly experienced operator to 90% of the time call
> a three round burst from a fully auto weapon... admittedly the cyclic wasn't
> quite 1K (more like 800), but it's not much different...

Been there. Done that. :-)

It needs practice, but it's too much of a pain to say "Roll your Firearms...
nope, you didn't get enough successes. You fire seven rounds instead of six."

Lots of dice, time wasted in a firefight, for no real entertainment.

For burstfire, as most people probably know, it's common to find three-round
burst limiters on assault rifles and now SMGs. More than that and you're into
trigger control. It needs practice, but you pick it up fast.

--
When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him.

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 58
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 12:42:29 +0200
>Remember that in Shadowrun, for the pure sake of game balance and the sanity
>of _all_ involved, cyclic rates hover closer to 10 or so rounds in one or two
>seconds. . .miniguns go up to 15!!

Cyclic isn't the same as the actual number of rounds you can fire in a given
time period. Of course SR is different than RL, it's a game (and a cinematic
one at that), so the 10 rounds/phase works pretty well, but that doesn't
mean that an SR weapon has a cyclic rate of 3 rounds per second.


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Wicked mental dope
GC3.0: GAT/! dpu s:- !a>? C+(++) U P L E? W(++) N K- w+ O V? PS+ PE Y PGP-
t(+) 5 X R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G++ e h! !r(--) y? Unofficial Shadowrun
Guru :)
Message no. 59
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 14:32:43 BST
Chummer, no way is it 10 rounds per second cyclic for an SR weapon,
it's ten rounds per _Phase_ if you look at the suppression fire...

Nearest we have to the duration of a single phase is 1 second =
approx 5 phases from the gas rules in the NAGRL (?)

That's fifty rounds a second, 3K cyclic....say, half a GE mingun!

A little over the odds for a single barrel job, even miniguns and
super-machine guns only get 4500 RPM...

Phil (Renegade)
Message no. 60
From: Michael Vinciguerra <DaStone1@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 22:40:24 -0400
Hellions
Message no. 61
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Essence and body-index
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 17:19:07 GMT
> >Remember that in Shadowrun, for the pure sake of game balance and the sanity
> >of _all_ involved, cyclic rates hover closer to 10 or so rounds in one or two
> >seconds. . .miniguns go up to 15!!
>
> Cyclic isn't the same as the actual number of rounds you can fire in a given
> time period. Of course SR is different than RL, it's a game (and a cinematic
> one at that), so the 10 rounds/phase works pretty well, but that doesn't
> mean that an SR weapon has a cyclic rate of 3 rounds per second.
> Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html

You can empty a magazine from an Ingram MAC-10 in about one and a half
seconds: cyclic rate is 1100 rounds a minute. How many of those hit anything
is open to question...

It comes down to "for simplicity you can fire more shots if you want to but
they all miss". I let players "hose" corridors etc. (firing MP-5Ks over
their shoulders as they run away, that sort of thing) and basically the
result is lots of noise and ricochets, an empty magazine, and the enemy
have a tendency to duck. Even an archrealist about firearms admits defeat
sometimes... :)

--
When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him.

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk

Further Reading

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