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Message no. 1
From: John Hopson jwh9@*****.duke.edu
Subject: Essence (was Re: Cyberware and Cosmetic Surgery)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 12:35:18 -0400
This argument doesn't quite make sense. Consider the case of Titanium
laced bones which take up a very large amount of essence but have no neural
connections. Or dermal plating, which is basically plastic plates under
the skin.

Sorry to bring up the whole "what is essence" mess, but it's come up in my
game and I'd love a good answer.

The best I've done so far is a list of what it's not:

It's not the removal of body parts. (Losing an arm doesn't cost essence)

It's not the invasiveness of the surgery. (Normal surgery doesn't cost
essence)

It's not the presence of metal/electric fields. (wearing a cyberarm on a
string around your neck doesn't cost essence)

It's not nerve interfaces. (Titanium bone lacing does cost essence
without any nerve work)

It's not sheer size. (an level 4 encephalon costs more essence than an
entire cyberleg)


The real answer to "what is essence" seems to be "It's what keeps the
cybersams from ruling the world". Which is fine and works great in most
circumstances, but it would be nice to have a coherant ic explanation.


John


Number Ten Ox wrote:
> Okay, maybe I'm weird, but to me, Essence does NOT reflect how much
>alteration is done to your body. You can crack your skull, and have a
>metal plate put into your head: by the rules, your Essence would remain at
>6. But install a datajack, which is perhaps a tenth of the mass of the
>metal plate, and your Essence plummets. If Essence represents the fraction
>of your body that's not what you started out with, that makes no sense. I
>run Essence as the degree of damage to *nerves*. It's not the cyberarm
>which subtracts Essence, it's the funky nerve-system-to-cyberware
>connections that make the thing run that impact Essence.
>
> So, to me, a high-Essence implant (like Wired Reflexes 3) does not
>necessarily equal major invasive surgery. As a matter of fact, Wired 3 in
>my game is one of the mildest surgeries around as far as gross physical
>effects go.
Message no. 2
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Essence (was Re: Cyberware and Cosmetic Surgery)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 19:14:41 +0200
According to John Hopson, at 12:35 on 21 Sep 99, the word on
the street was...

> Sorry to bring up the whole "what is essence" mess, but it's come up in my
> game and I'd love a good answer.

Mike Mulvihill talked about this at the Shadowrun seminars at GenCon.
Basically, for Man & Machine they had to find a definition of Essence, and
from what I remember (it's been about 1 1/2 months) they settled on that
Essence loss is convincing yourself that the metal is actually part of
you. Or something like that, anyway.

The thing I remember clearest about the definition is that I didn't like
it at all... I mean, what's wrong with the "aura integrity" theory? Jeez,
next you know, we'll be back at the WYTIWYG-theory that seems to have
vanished from the list together with Jani :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Vraag niet om de terugkeer
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 3
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: Essence (was Re: Cyberware and Cosmetic Surgery)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 15:40:49 -0700
On Tue, 21 Sep 1999 19:14:41 +0200 "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl> writes:
<SNIP>
> Mike Mulvihill talked about this at the Shadowrun seminars at GenCon.
> Basically, for Man & Machine they had to find a definition of Essence,
and
> from what I remember (it's been about 1 1/2 months) they settled on
that
> Essence loss is convincing yourself that the metal is actually part of
> you. Or something like that, anyway.
<SNIP>

I hope you're wrong!!! What an argument for variable Essence .... ("but
my character is more comfortable with the cyberware" or "my character
doesn't realize the metal is there")

bleh

--
D. Ghost
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
-Groucho Marx

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Message no. 4
From: lomion lomion@*********.escnd1.sdca.home.com
Subject: Essence (was Re: Cyberware and Cosmetic Surgery)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 16:25:56 -0700
At 07:14 PM 9/21/99 +0200, you wrote:
>According to John Hopson, at 12:35 on 21 Sep 99, the word on
>the street was...
>
> > Sorry to bring up the whole "what is essence" mess, but it's
come
> up in my
> > game and I'd love a good answer.
>
>Mike Mulvihill talked about this at the Shadowrun seminars at GenCon.
>Basically, for Man & Machine they had to find a definition of Essence, and
>from what I remember (it's been about 1 1/2 months) they settled on that
>Essence loss is convincing yourself that the metal is actually part of
>you. Or something like that, anyway.

does that mean that if i convince myself that this nifty cyberarm really
isn't a part of me i don't lose any essence? heh. The way that essence
has been handled in the past has been fine for me..i did incorporate a bit
of the cyberpsychosis stuff from cyberpunk too.

backing away from the can of worms called essence quickly...


--lomion
Message no. 5
From: Barbie LeVile barbie@********.de
Subject: Essence (was Re: Cyberware and Cosmetic Surgery)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 02:52:53 +0200
Gurth wrote:
>
>
> The thing I remember clearest about the definition is that I didn't like
> it at all... I mean, what's wrong with the "aura integrity" theory? Jeez,
> next you know, we'll be back at the WYTIWYG-theory that seems to have
> vanished from the list together with Jani :)
>
Yeah, the SoS files tell that too, sounds ultra stupido to me, what
happens when a char doesn`t knows about her cyber and thinks its her
natural body? NO essence cost?

or with those cyber freaks, that think cyber is more cool then flesh?

no, wrong way of doing that IMO

--
Barbie

"One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad
"Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein F¸hrer" - Adolf Hitler

barbie@********.de
http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie/index.html

SRGC 0.22: SR1 SR2+++ SR3--- h++++ b++ b--- UB++ IE- RN+ SR_D+++ W++
dk sh++++ ri++++ sa+++ ad+++ m+++(x+++) gm++ m+++ P+++(P*)
Message no. 6
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Essence (was Re: Cyberware and Cosmetic Surgery)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 11:17:15 +0200
According to dghost@****.com, at 15:40 on 21 Sep 99, the word on
the street was...

> I hope you're wrong!!! What an argument for variable Essence .... ("but
> my character is more comfortable with the cyberware" or "my character
> doesn't realize the metal is there")

Like I said, I don't remember the details, only the general impression the
definition left me with. But "bleh" was more or less my initial reaction,
too, followed very closely by "Does that mean we'll get cyberpsychosis
next?"

I also asked Mike, after the seminar, what this meant for Essence loss due
to Essence Drain, because if Essence loss is making yourself believe it,
then what would there be to believe about a vampire biting you? However, I
don't think he understood what I meant --his reply was along the lines of
"But it's a critter power, it's not the same."

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Vraag niet om de terugkeer
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 7
From: Sommers sommers@*****.edu
Subject: Essence (was Re: Cyberware and Cosmetic Surgery)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 08:18:11 -0400
At 02:52 AM 9/22/99 +0200, you wrote:
>Gurth wrote:
> >
> >
> > The thing I remember clearest about the definition is that I didn't like
> > it at all... I mean, what's wrong with the "aura integrity" theory?
Jeez,
> > next you know, we'll be back at the WYTIWYG-theory that seems to have
> > vanished from the list together with Jani :)
> >
>Yeah, the SoS files tell that too, sounds ultra stupido to me, what
>happens when a char doesn`t knows about her cyber and thinks its her
>natural body? NO essence cost?
>or with those cyber freaks, that think cyber is more cool then flesh?

The following is all IMHO, since the book isn't even out yet...

Its not what a char thinks the essence is doing to his body, its what his
body thinks he's doing to his body. It falls below even a subconscious
level, to the point where the body itself knows that this is something
utterly wrong attached to itself.

It does fit in with aura theory since the aura acts as the template for the
body. When the cyberwear is installed, the body starts looking differently
than the aura, and notices that stuff is not supposed to be there. The
essence loss is the result of the stress between the body being in one
state and the aura being in another state.

>no, wrong way of doing that IMO

Quite possibly, but I'm going to reserve judgement until I see it.

>--
>Barbie



Sommers
Insert witty quote here.
Message no. 8
From: Martin Steffens (Berlitz) v-marts@*********.com
Subject: Essence (was Re: Cyberware and Cosmetic Surgery)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 07:00:09 -0700
From: Gurth [mailto:gurth@******.nl]

> Mike Mulvihill talked about this at the Shadowrun seminars at GenCon.
> Basically, for Man & Machine they had to find a definition of Essence, and

> from what I remember (it's been about 1 1/2 months) they settled on that
> Essence loss is convincing yourself that the metal is actually part of
> you. Or something like that, anyway.

Eurlgh, munchkins unite! I can understand that as part of an explanation,
but it seems too weird to use it as the only thing that determines essence
loss. Mr. Super Sammie can cram 80 points of old essence in his body just
because he feels good (nana-nana-na). I can imagine some psychological
disorders from over-cybering but to explain death at zero essence with
"yeah, he didn't feel that his arm was part of him and that killed him in
the end." sounds very weird.
Having said that semi-flexible essence cost sounds like a good idea though.
But I suggest to make it random based +- 10% and then maybe have a high
cyber tolerance as an edge at start up which would cost a bunch of
points which would give you a positive modifier (and a reverse flaw).

> The thing I remember clearest about the definition is that I didn't like
> it at all... I mean, what's wrong with the "aura integrity" theory? Jeez,
> next you know, we'll be back at the WYTIWYG-theory that seems to have
> vanished from the list together with Jani :)

The WYTIWYG theory, which is my invention btw, was intended only to
explain the different magical disciplines and the vastly superior abilities
of the immortal elves. Cyber is a pretty clear-cut affair, not enough
body left; you die.


Martin Steffens
e-mail: v-marts@*********.com
phone: 70 666 44
Message no. 9
From: Tony Rabiola argent1@****.com
Subject: Essence (was Re: Cyberware and Cosmetic Surgery)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 10:08:25 -0500
>
> Eurlgh, munchkins unite! I can understand that as part of an explanation,
> but it seems too weird to use it as the only thing that determines essence
> loss. Mr. Super Sammie can cram 80 points of old essence in his body just
> because he feels good (nana-nana-na). I can imagine some psychological
> disorders from over-cybering but to explain death at zero essence with
> "yeah, he didn't feel that his arm was part of him and that killed him in
> the end." sounds very weird.
> Having said that semi-flexible essence cost sounds like a good idea
though.
> But I suggest to make it random based +- 10% and then maybe have a high
> cyber tolerance as an edge at start up which would cost a bunch of
> points which would give you a positive modifier (and a reverse flaw).
>

One of the things I liked about the original Cyberpunk rules was the fact
that a great portion of the cyberware had a variable implantation cost; to
me that reflected the fact that it affected different people in varying
amounts, and you were never sure when you were going to go over the edge.

Argent
Message no. 10
From: Kelson kelson13@*******.com
Subject: Essence (was Re: Cyberware and Cosmetic Surgery)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 08:32:17 -0700
On Wed, 22 Sep 1999 10:08:25 Tony Rabiola wrote:

>One of the things I liked about the original Cyberpunk rules was the fact
>that a great portion of the cyberware had a variable implantation cost; to
>me that reflected the fact that it affected different people in varying
>amounts, and you were never sure when you were going to go over the edge.

Actually, SR 2 has rules for this already (not sure about SR3). The surgery, depending
upon how well it goes, can increase or decrease the Essence cost. That's why it's a good
idea to go to a good surgeon, not just any street doc/chop shop.

I've never seen a GM use these rules, and only recently discovered them myself. So, if
you want flexible Essence costs and the uncertainty that can bring, I suggest you look for
these rules (I have no idea which sourcebook they are in, but I'd try Shadowtech,
Cybertechnology, Street Sam's, and the basic book).

>Argent

Justin


--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Message no. 11
From: Paolo Marcucci pmarcucci@******.com
Subject: Essence (was Re: Cyberware and Cosmetic Surgery)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 09:46:38 -0700
Before start slamming the new essence rules/definition, let's see what FASA
came up with. The explanation given by MikeM at Gencon was quite murky and
not completely satisfying.

I think that everything will be explained much more clearly in M&M :)

-Paolo

BTW: Dowd did a great job on the game, but, on a personal level, I much
prefer MikeM...
Message no. 12
From: Slugworth Slugworth@*********.com
Subject: Essence (was Re: Cyberware and Cosmetic Surgery)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 11:46:32 -0500
> BTW: Dowd did a great job on the game, but, on a personal level, I much
> prefer MikeM...

Much agreement here!!!
Message no. 13
From: Gorbi gbmaill@***.de
Subject: Essence (was Re: Cyberware and Cosmetic Surgery)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 18:52:37 +0200
Kelson wrote:
>
>>One of the things I liked about the original Cyberpunk rules was the fact
>>that a great portion of the cyberware had a variable implantation cost; to
>>me that reflected the fact that it affected different people in varying
>>amounts, and you were never sure when you were going to go over the edge.
>
> Actually, SR 2 has rules for this already (not sure about SR3). The
> surgery, depending upon how well it goes, can increase or decrease the
> Essence cost. That's why it's a good idea to go to a good surgeon, not
> just any street doc/chop shop.
>
> I've never seen a GM use these rules, and only recently discovered them
> myself. So, if you want flexible Essence costs and the uncertainty that
> can bring, I suggest you look for these rules (I have no idea which
> sourcebook they are in, but I'd try Shadowtech, Cybertechnology, Street
> Sam's, and the basic book).

It's Cybertechnology. And I see no reason (apart from another essence loss
explanation) why it shouldn't be used in SR3

Gorbi
Message no. 14
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Essence (was Re: Cyberware and Cosmetic Surgery)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 12:59:20 -0400
> Before start slamming the new essence rules/definition, let's see what
FASA
> came up with. The explanation given by MikeM at Gencon was quite murky and
> not completely satisfying.
>
> I think that everything will be explained much more clearly in M&M :)

Oh, be rational, will you...</me begins sharpening a good eye-poking stick.>

Uh, I mean, you're right. If someone asked my for details on something that
wasn't going to be done for another three months, I'd probably not give the
best explanation, either. Hopefully, the real thing will turn out to be
better. [And if it's not, as they say; just ignore it. I doubt the
justification will turn out to be so essential that we can't just use our
own.]

> BTW: Dowd did a great job on the game, but, on a personal level, I much
> prefer MikeM...

Not knowing either of them except by their work, I am, unfortunately, not
qualified to make a judgement on that level. So I will refrain.

[However, I've been wanting to mention something for a long time; has anyone
else been picturing Tom Dowd as looking just like the lead character in
"Strange Days," even long before the film came out? Or am I insane?]
Message no. 15
From: Richard Tomasso rtomasso@*******.com
Subject: Essence (was Re: Cyberware and Cosmetic Surgery)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 13:02:14 -0400 (EDT)
Gorbi wrote:
> It's Cybertechnology. And I see no reason (apart from another essence loss
> explanation) why it shouldn't be used in SR3

There will be surgery rules in M&M.
Message no. 16
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Essence (was Re: Cyberware and Cosmetic Surgery)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 20:00:42 +0200
According to Martin Steffens (Berlitz), at 7:00 on 22 Sep 99, the word on
the street was...

> > The thing I remember clearest about the definition is that I didn't like
> > it at all... I mean, what's wrong with the "aura integrity" theory?
Jeez,
> > next you know, we'll be back at the WYTIWYG-theory that seems to have
> > vanished from the list together with Jani :)
>
> The WYTIWYG theory, which is my invention btw

I didn't know that (guess you came up with it during my forced absence
from the list :) Jani always seemed the most vocal supporter of the
theory, though.

> was intended only to explain the different magical disciplines and the
> vastly superior abilities of the immortal elves. Cyber is a pretty
> clear-cut affair, not enough body left; you die.

It is, but if you start with a theory that says Essence loss is mainly a
psychological thing, then WYTIWYG is lurking around the corner waiting for
a chance to jump out.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Vraag niet om de terugkeer
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 17
From: Paolo Marcucci pmarcucci@******.com
Subject: Essence (was Re: Cyberware and Cosmetic Surgery)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 12:07:39 -0700
From: abortion_engine <abortion_engine@*******.com>
>Oh, be rational, will you...</me begins sharpening a good eye-poking
stick.>


Ah! Eye-poking stick won't mean squat with my Floppy Contact Lenses (armor
5/3)

>> BTW: Dowd did a great job on the game, but, on a personal level, I much
>> prefer MikeM...
>
>Not knowing either of them except by their work, I am, unfortunately, not
>qualified to make a judgement on that level. So I will refrain.


I talked very little with Dowd, but he seemed... distant? While MikeM has
eye-wrinkles whenever he talks about Shadowrun. Dvixen tells me that this
happens when you're realle passionate about your job :)

>[However, I've been wanting to mention something for a long time; has
anyone
>else been picturing Tom Dowd as looking just like the lead character in
>"Strange Days," even long before the film came out? Or am I insane?]


I can't see why these two things have to be mutually exclusive...

But, IIRC (it was gencon97, and I was there for a total of 6 hrs), Dowd
looks like a standard gamer, not skinny, bearded (I seem to remember dark
blonde) and with glasses. There's even a picture (drawing) of him in a
sourcebook. Virtual cookie to the first who remembers where :)

-Paolo
Message no. 18
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Essence (was Re: Cyberware and Cosmetic Surgery)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 15:38:31 -0400
> From: abortion_engine <abortion_engine@*******.com>
> >Oh, be rational, will you...</me begins sharpening a good eye-poking
> stick.>
>
> Ah! Eye-poking stick won't mean squat with my Floppy Contact Lenses (armor
> 5/3)

Hmm...I'll have to find my Armor Piercing Disposing Sabot stick...I know
it's around here somewhere...[I'd just like everyone to picture the kind of
guy who could push a stick hard enough into anything to peel the wood away
from some kind of teflon-coated ceramic core.]

> >[However, I've been wanting to mention something for a long time; has
> anyone
> >else been picturing Tom Dowd as looking just like the lead character in
> >"Strange Days," even long before the film came out? Or am I insane?]
>
> I can't see why these two things have to be mutually exclusive...

Oh, they don't. And I don't think they are. :)

> But, IIRC (it was gencon97, and I was there for a total of 6 hrs), Dowd
> looks like a standard gamer, not skinny, bearded (I seem to remember dark
> blonde) and with glasses. There's even a picture (drawing) of him in a
> sourcebook. Virtual cookie to the first who remembers where :)
>
I'm so disappointed...however, I would like someone to let me know which
drawing is of him...[cough, cough I've-got-a-stick-don't-mess-with-me,
cough.]
Message no. 19
From: Tony Rabiola argent1@****.com
Subject: Essence (was Re: Cyberware and Cosmetic Surgery)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 14:49:10 -0500
> I talked very little with Dowd, but he seemed... distant? While MikeM has
> eye-wrinkles whenever he talks about Shadowrun. Dvixen tells me that this
> happens when you're realle passionate about your job :)
>

I have to disagree; we had Tom here for a local convention a few years ago,
and he was as passionate and approachable as anyone I have ever met in the
business...and he ran a great game, too. He was liked by everyone in
attendance, even the non-FASA contingent.

Argent
Message no. 20
From: Sommers sommers@*****.edu
Subject: Essence (was Re: Cyberware and Cosmetic Surgery)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 15:55:52 -0400
At 12:07 PM 9/22/99 -0700, you wrote:
> >[However, I've been wanting to mention something for a long time; has
>anyone
> >else been picturing Tom Dowd as looking just like the lead character in
> >"Strange Days," even long before the film came out? Or am I insane?]
>
>
>I can't see why these two things have to be mutually exclusive...
>
>But, IIRC (it was gencon97, and I was there for a total of 6 hrs), Dowd
>looks like a standard gamer, not skinny, bearded (I seem to remember dark
>blonde) and with glasses. There's even a picture (drawing) of him in a
>sourcebook. Virtual cookie to the first who remembers where :)

I believe it was the back of Cybertechnology. There is a picture of a large
cybered individual running out of the page, chased by a bearded man with
glasses running after him with an SR book. He's yelling something to the
effect of "Not in my game!"

Sommers
Insert witty quote here.
Message no. 21
From: Andrew Murdoch toreador@***.bc.ca
Subject: Essence (was Re: Cyberware and Cosmetic Surgery)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 15:00:44 -0700 (PDT)
On Wed, 22 Sep 1999, Paolo Marcucci wrote:

>
> But, IIRC (it was gencon97, and I was there for a total of 6 hrs), Dowd
> looks like a standard gamer, not skinny, bearded (I seem to remember dark
> blonde) and with glasses. There's even a picture (drawing) of him in a
> sourcebook. Virtual cookie to the first who remembers where :)

SR2, me thinks... buncha the FASA SR staff in one picture as various
runner types. Tom looked distinctly magical and psychotic at the same
time.

--
Raven
Sometimes known as Andrew C. Murdoch
toreador@***.bc.ca
http://members.xoom.com/corvisraven
Message no. 22
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: Essence (was Re: Cyberware and Cosmetic Surgery)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 17:24:45 -0700
On Wed, 22 Sep 1999 18:52:37 +0200 "Gorbi" <gbmaill@***.de> writes:
> Kelson wrote:
<SNIP>
>> I've never seen a GM use these rules, and only recently discovered
them myself.

I've used them but not as often as I intended to.

>>So, if you want flexible Essence costs and the uncertainty that
>>can bring, I suggest you look for these rules (I have no idea which
>>sourcebook they are in, but I'd try Shadowtech, Cybertechnology, Street
>>Sam's, and the basic book).

> It's Cybertechnology.

It's in the back of the Street Samurai Catalog along with Alpha and Beta
`ware (delta didn't come along until Cybertechnology)

>And I see no reason (apart from another essence loss
>explanation) why it shouldn't be used in SR3

I see no reason why it shouldn't be used in SR1, 2, and 3 :P

--
D. Ghost
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
-Groucho Marx

___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.
Message no. 23
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Essence (was Re: Cyberware and Cosmetic Surgery)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 17:47:06 -0700 (PDT)
> > But, IIRC (it was gencon97, and I was there for a
total of 6 hrs), Dowd looks like a standard gamer, not
skinny, bearded (I seem to remember dark blonde) and
with glasses. There's even a picture (drawing) of him
in a sourcebook. Virtual cookie to the first who
remembers where :)
>
> SR2, me thinks... buncha the FASA SR staff in one
picture as various runner types. Tom looked distinctly
magical and psychotic at the same time.
> Raven

Don't know if anyone's gotten in, but I say he's the
GM in the last section of NAGtRL chasing the
bulked-out cyberbunny with a copy of the SR2 rulebook.

*Doc' LIKES the quote...*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
__________________________________________________
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Message no. 24
From: Paolo Marcucci thatpaolo@****.com
Subject: Essence (was Re: Cyberware and Cosmetic Surgery)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 20:08:46 -0700
> Don't know if anyone's gotten in, but I say he's the
> GM in the last section of NAGtRL chasing the
> bulked-out cyberbunny with a copy of the SR2 rulebook.
> ====> Doc'
> (aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

VIRTUAL COOKIE!

C'mon, it was too easy, the guy even has a name tag with "DOWD" written on
it... :)

-Paolo
Message no. 25
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Essence (was Re: Cyberware and Cosmetic Surgery)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 20:58:18 -0700 (PDT)
> > Don't know if anyone's gotten in, but I say he's
the GM in the last section of NAGtRL chasing the
bulked-out cyberbunny with a copy of the SR2 rulebook.
> > ====> > Doc'
>
> VIRTUAL COOKIE!
>
> C'mon, it was too easy, the guy even has a name tag
with "DOWD" written on it... :)
> -Paolo

Woohoo!

*Doc' chomps down...heh heh heh...*

Well, Sommers was close - he just placed the pic in
the wrong book. Ah well, such is life.

So that pic really IS what Tom Dowd looks like?
Weird...


====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
Message no. 26
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Essence (was Re: Cyberware and Cosmetic Surgery)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 11:15:23 +0200
According to Paolo Marcucci, at 12:07 on 22 Sep 99, the word on
the street was...

> I can't see why these two things have to be mutually exclusive...
>
> But, IIRC (it was gencon97, and I was there for a total of 6 hrs), Dowd
> looks like a standard gamer, not skinny, bearded (I seem to remember dark
> blonde) and with glasses.

Pretty good description, from what I remember from meeting him about six
years ago :) But Mike M isn't exactly skinny either, and he used to have a
beard, too.

> There's even a picture (drawing) of him in a sourcebook. Virtual cookie
> to the first who remembers where :)

That's no contest... NAGRL, the full-page image just before the game rules
chapter. The figure in the drawing even has a name tag that says "Dowd."

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Vraag niet om de terugkeer
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 27
From: Martin Steffens (Berlitz) v-marts@*********.com
Subject: Essence (was Re: Cyberware and Cosmetic Surgery)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 06:35:15 -0700
From: Paolo Marcucci [mailto:pmarcucci@******.com]

> Before start slamming the new essence rules/definition, let's
> see what FASA came up with. The explanation given by MikeM at
> Gencon was quite murky and not completely satisfying.

> I think that everything will be explained much more clearly
> in M&M :)

Well you are right in one respect in that we are acting upon
rumours, but this list also has a bunch of people who talk to
and/or work with FASA on the actual contents of books. If this
was a not fully worked out idea for M&M, I think it's a good
idea to offer criticism upon these murky sayings.

I haven't got the faintest clue when M&M is due, I couldn't
check up the archives; for some reason it kept disconnecting
me, so it might all be moot.

> BTW: Dowd did a great job on the game, but, on a personal
> level, I much prefer MikeM...

Both of them have their strengths and weaknesses I guess.


Martin Steffens
e-mail: v-marts@*********.com
phone: 70 666 44
Message no. 28
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Essence (was Re: Cyberware and Cosmetic Surgery)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 12:29:19 -0500
> Eurlgh, munchkins unite! I can understand that as part of an explanation,
> but it seems too weird to use it as the only thing that determines essence
> loss. Mr. Super Sammie can cram 80 points of old essence in his body just
> because he feels good (nana-nana-na). I can imagine some psychological
> disorders from over-cybering but to explain death at zero essence with
> "yeah, he didn't feel that his arm was part of him and that killed him in
> the end." sounds very weird.

Well, if he did succesfully psychologically "accept" a whole ne cyber
body, MBW4, and other crud, he'd still be dead; it sounds to me like that's
a pretty big psych change, and thus essence loss. It cuts both ways, I
think, although I'll wait to see any details of just what essence loss
means.

> Having said that semi-flexible essence cost sounds like a good idea
though.
> But I suggest to make it random based +- 10% and then maybe have a high
> cyber tolerance as an edge at start up which would cost a bunch of
> points which would give you a positive modifier (and a reverse flaw).

Surgery already impacts essence, resulting in variation from base cost.
There is also the "sensative system" flaw, which doubles essence cost.
In fact, I'm suprised at the current big flap. The "sensative sytem"
flaw has been around quite some time; what is its justification, if not
physiological or psychological?

Mongoose
Message no. 29
From: Martin Steffens (Berlitz) v-marts@*********.com
Subject: Essence (was Re: Cyberware and Cosmetic Surgery)
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 03:24:52 -0700
From: Sebastian Wiers [mailto:m0ng005e@*********.com]

> Surgery already impacts essence, resulting in variation from
> base cost.

I knew about the essence in surgery rules, but think that they
are not really that good. I don't like it that the less essence
you have the more likely it becomes to lose more essence. One
could say that if you want thermo in your cyber eyes there is
no fluctuation in essence possible, since the enhancement is
attached to an already cybered part or that the doctor just has
to move some wires aside instead of internal organs. And the
more cyber one has the more likelier that becomes. I feel more
for a fixed number test against the docs' biotech/cyberimplant
skills than vs essence. But added to that I like the idea of
a certain extra random effect that differs per implant. 0.1
essence left, and you need that image enhancer. Do you feel
lucky, punk?!

> There is also the "sensative system" flaw, which
> doubles essence cost. In fact, I'm suprised at the current big
> flap. The "sensative sytem" flaw has been around quite some
> time; what is its justification, if not physiological or
> psychological?

Well the name of the flaw suggests physiological. I know that
some people have an extremely sensitive system that reacts
violently to changes. I suspect this is based on physiological
reasons mostly, as opposed to people who faint when they see
a needle, these people can happily watch the whole process
but the loss of blood pressure causes them to faint. Yet
others manage. I tend give the physiological effect more
weight.

The way I personally see the essence value is as an initial
change shock to the system. Of course psychological acceptance
plays a part (that's why the suggested -+10% value),
but that's far more important after the initial operation
than during.

To throw some ideas around that flow from this theory:
- A character can be allowed a acceptance test for example
a month after the full recovery time and regain some
essence (body test I suggest).
- Failing this test means additional essence loss (perhaps
cumulative until the implant is removed, after which
essence recovery is possible)
- During the operation the character must make a body test
against a number based on the essence cost of the
implant to prevent system shock (if it happens the
operation is cancelled and the character must wait
at least a month before trying it again).

Note that these are just some quick thoughts scribbled down
(well typed actually), nothing has been worked out or tested.
Message no. 30
From: Zixx t_berghoff@*********.netsurf.de
Subject: Essence (was Re: Cyberware and Cosmetic Surgery)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 16:45:34 +0200
On 21 Sep 99, at 19:14, Gurth wrote:

> The thing I remember clearest about the definition is that I didn't like
> it at all... I mean, what's wrong with the "aura integrity" theory? Jeez,
> next you know, we'll be back at the WYTIWYG-theory that seems to have
> vanished from the list together with Jani :)

"What You Think Is What You Get"?

Well, I once came up with the idea of lining essence to willpower (a bit
like in CP2020). Veeeeeery troll-unfriendly ;)



Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx
ICQ: 9293066

A society without religion is like a crazed psychopath without a loaded .45

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK------------
GAT/CS/S/IT d--- s+:-- !a>? C++(++++)
UL++(++++) P+ L++ E W+ N+ w---() O-
M-- PS+(+++) PE- Y+>++ t+(++) 5+ X++
R* tv b++ DI(+) D++ G>++ e>+++++(*)
h! r--
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK-------------
Message no. 31
From: Zixx t_berghoff@*********.netsurf.de
Subject: Essence (was Re: Cyberware and Cosmetic Surgery)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 16:45:34 +0200
On 21 Sep 99, at 15:40, dghost@****.com wrote:

> On Tue, 21 Sep 1999 19:14:41 +0200 "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl> writes:
> <SNIP>
> > Mike Mulvihill talked about this at the Shadowrun seminars at GenCon.
> > Basically, for Man & Machine they had to find a definition of Essence,
> and
> > from what I remember (it's been about 1 1/2 months) they settled on
> that
> > Essence loss is convincing yourself that the metal is actually part of
> > you. Or something like that, anyway.
> <SNIP>
>
> I hope you're wrong!!! What an argument for variable Essence .... ("but
> my character is more comfortable with the cyberware" or "my character
> doesn't realize the metal is there")

I think you miss something here. The character loses essence. Persiod.
So the "but my character is more comfortable with the cyberware"
approach doesn't work. The essence-loss is a role-playing mechanic
then. You *have* to deal with it, because, well, the rules say so. This
stops the muchies from getting away with completly normal 0.05
essence char. You see, the rules should not adapt to a munchy
character concept. ;)


Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx
ICQ: 9293066

A society without religion is like a crazed psychopath without a loaded .45

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK------------
GAT/CS/S/IT d--- s+:-- !a>? C++(++++)
UL++(++++) P+ L++ E W+ N+ w---() O-
M-- PS+(+++) PE- Y+>++ t+(++) 5+ X++
R* tv b++ DI(+) D++ G>++ e>+++++(*)
h! r--
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK-------------
Message no. 32
From: Sommers sommers@*****.edu
Subject: Essence (was Re: Cyberware and Cosmetic Surgery)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 11:34:35 -0400
At 04:45 PM 9/27/99 +0200, you wrote:
>On 21 Sep 99, at 15:40, dghost@****.com wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 21 Sep 1999 19:14:41 +0200 "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
writes:
> > <SNIP>
> > > Mike Mulvihill talked about this at the Shadowrun seminars at GenCon.
> > > Basically, for Man & Machine they had to find a definition of Essence,
> > and
> > > from what I remember (it's been about 1 1/2 months) they settled on
> > that
> > > Essence loss is convincing yourself that the metal is actually part of
> > > you. Or something like that, anyway.
> > <SNIP>
> >
> > I hope you're wrong!!! What an argument for variable Essence .... ("but
> > my character is more comfortable with the cyberware" or "my character
> > doesn't realize the metal is there")
>
>I think you miss something here. The character loses essence. Persiod.
>So the "but my character is more comfortable with the cyberware"
>approach doesn't work. The essence-loss is a role-playing mechanic
>then. You *have* to deal with it, because, well, the rules say so. This
>stops the muchies from getting away with completly normal 0.05
>essence char. You see, the rules should not adapt to a munchy
>character concept. ;)

It's not the character that decides how comfortable with the cyberwear, its
the body. My body can convince itself that I only need one kidney to live
on. I don't deal with certain situations as I used to, but the process
still works. If I get a donated kidney that isn't mine, it should work as
long as drugs are used to convince my body to keep it. In both cases a
positive mental attitude will help me somewhat.

Under no circumstances can I convince my body that I don't need a heart to
live. It is something that is required by the body. In the same way, there
is not going to be a way for a character to convince himself that he can
take more cyber into him. The body can only be convinced so much before it
decides its not around anymore and shuts down.

Sommers
Insert witty quote here.
Message no. 33
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Essence (was Re: Cyberware and Cosmetic Surgery)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 19:21:35 +0200
According to Zixx, at 16:45 on 27 Sep 99, the word on
the street was...

> > The thing I remember clearest about the definition is that I didn't like
> > it at all... I mean, what's wrong with the "aura integrity" theory?
Jeez,
> > next you know, we'll be back at the WYTIWYG-theory that seems to have
> > vanished from the list together with Jani :)
>
> "What You Think Is What You Get"?

Yes. From what I remember (Martin, correct me if I'm wrong) it said that
the way you use magic depends on how you think about it -- if you think of
the world, magic, life, etc. in shamanic terms, you're a shaman, for
example. Although it sounds obvious, it isn't, really, IMHO.

> Well, I once came up with the idea of lining essence to willpower (a bit
> like in CP2020). Veeeeeery troll-unfriendly ;)

Not anymore :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Het is een boek om in het donker te lezen.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 34
From: Martin Steffens (Berlitz) v-marts@*********.com
Subject: Essence (was Re: Cyberware and Cosmetic Surgery)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 03:42:46 -0700
From: Gurth [mailto:gurth@******.nl]

> Yes. From what I remember (Martin, correct me if I'm
> wrong) it said that the way you use magic depends on
> how you think about it -- if you think of the world,
> magic, life, etc. in shamanic terms, you're a shaman,
> for example. Although it sounds obvious, it isn't,
> really, IMHO.

I think you got the essence of it (pun not intended).
Remember this came up before Awakenings came out, and it
was really nice to see it being used rather heavily there.
The idea was that everyone perceives magic differently
and that your perception will limit/form your use of magic.


Martin Steffens
e-mail: v-marts@*********.com
phone: 70 666 44

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