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Message no. 1
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: European cons (was Re: 4. Hanauer SpieleCon)
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 12:15:30 +0100
Randy Nickel said on 14:13/25 Jun 98,...

> If it is the one that I went to there it is mostly wargames, and
> AD & D. Although Shadowrun was not around then. I was lucky enough to be
> stationed at Ft. Lewis when Shadowrun hit the market.

Since we're talking about conventions now, does anyone of our
European listmembers plan on going to GenCon Benelux, 31 July
through 2 August? I just got a program booklet for it from WotC
Belgium (without having asked for one, and I wonder where they
got my address from...).

Looking through the events, it's mainly M:TG, AD&D, and V:TM
(did you expect anything else?), but on Sunday there'll be a few
Shadowrun RPG games and a 64-player SRTCG tournament; the
only other RPGs are Star Wars and Alternity.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Hold on to nothing as fast as you can.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 2
From: AlSeyMer <AdSM@******.BE>
Subject: Re: European cons (was Re: 4. Hanauer SpieleCon)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 15:53:02 +0200
Gurth wrote:
(snip)
> Since we're talking about conventions now, does anyone of our
> European listmembers plan on going to GenCon Benelux, 31 July
> through 2 August? I just got a program booklet for it from WotC
> Belgium (without having asked for one, and I wonder where they
> got my address from...).
> (snip)

Where will this happen?

AlSeyMer
Message no. 3
From: Tony Strongman <krusty@*******.DIRCON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: European cons (was Re: 4. Hanauer SpieleCon)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 15:15:05 +0100
>Since we're talking about conventions now, does anyone of our
>European listmembers plan on going to GenCon Benelux, 31 July
>through 2 August? I just got a program booklet for it from WotC
>Belgium (without having asked for one, and I wonder where they
>got my address from...).



Forgive my ignorance of Geography but where is Benelux? (if thats the
city). And when is the con being held?

I could do with a trip to Europe but I am tied to work a lot.
krusty@******.co.uk
ICQ# : 14676695

"Its not me you should fear, It's the thousand fu#*ing men behind me"
Message no. 4
From: AlSeyMer <AdSM@******.BE>
Subject: Re: European cons (was Re: 4. Hanauer SpieleCon)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 16:48:47 +0200
Tony Strongman wrote:
(snip)
> Forgive my ignorance of Geography but where is Benelux? (if thats the
> city). And when is the con being held?
> (snip)

BeNeLux, aka BElgium NEtherland LUXembourg, is the precurssor of the EC,
the first three countries of the lot that had decided they could do with
less border hassle than it was usual. Since then, they are allied in the
EC. Usually.

AlSeyMer, who hates to sound pedantic but who still lives there ;-)
Message no. 5
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: European cons (was Re: 4. Hanauer SpieleCon)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 17:08:54 +0100
In article <3.0.1.32.19980628151505.006c8f88@*******.dircon.co.uk>, Tony
Strongman <krusty@*******.DIRCON.CO.UK> writes
>>Since we're talking about conventions now, does anyone of our
>>European listmembers plan on going to GenCon Benelux, 31 July
>>through 2 August? I just got a program booklet for it from WotC
>>Belgium (without having asked for one, and I wonder where they
>>got my address from...).
>
>Forgive my ignorance of Geography but where is Benelux? (if thats the
>city). And when is the con being held?

Benelux is Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg. :)

Be-Ne-Lux. Something to do with borders and stuff. I'm not sure what.
Someone from the area could perhaps explain better.

>I could do with a trip to Europe but I am tied to work a lot.
>krusty@******.co.uk
>ICQ# : 14676695

There's a GenCon in the UK in September, as someone pointed out to me on
another list. Only one Shadowrun match is scheduled but you can find
out about it and the Belgium con here:

http://rpga.ukonline.co.uk

--
Avenger
http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk/index.htm
(Newbies Survival Guide to Stk & SR stuff)
http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/angband/320/index.htm
(UK Survival Guide, SR Guide to the Oceans.)
Message no. 6
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: European cons (was Re: 4. Hanauer SpieleCon)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 21:36:49 +0100
AlSeyMer said on 15:53/28 Jun 98,...

> > Since we're talking about conventions now, does anyone of our
> > European listmembers plan on going to GenCon Benelux, 31 July
> > through 2 August? I just got a program booklet for it from WotC
> > Belgium (without having asked for one, and I wonder where they
> > got my address from...).
> > (snip)
>
> Where will this happen?

In Tiel, the Netherlands. You can phone *looks in pre-reg book*
WotC at +32 14 44 30 44 (use 0492-538487 in NL instead) for
more info, or email to custserv@*******.be. It doesn't look like
this'll be an event worth visiting, though, but perhaps that's what
they said about the first GenCon in the US too :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Refusing to be classified.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 7
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: European cons (was Re: 4. Hanauer SpieleCon)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 21:36:49 +0100
Avenger said on 17:08/28 Jun 98,...

> Benelux is Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg. :)
>
> Be-Ne-Lux. Something to do with borders and stuff. I'm not sure what.
> Someone from the area could perhaps explain better.

Mostly it has to do with trade agreements and things, but the
most obvious part is that you don't to go through customs when
crossing the border. It's much the same as in the rest of the EU
where border checkpoints were done away with a few years ago,
but it happened much earlier. In many ways the Benelux has
been an example for the EU.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Refusing to be classified.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 8
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: European cons (was Re: 4. Hanauer SpieleCon)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 21:36:49 +0100
Tony Strongman said on 15:15/28 Jun 98,...

> >Since we're talking about conventions now, does anyone of our
> >European listmembers plan on going to GenCon Benelux, 31 July
> >through 2 August? I just got a program booklet for it from WotC
> >Belgium (without having asked for one, and I wonder where they
> >got my address from...).
>
> Forgive my ignorance of Geography but where is Benelux? (if thats the
> city).

Benelux isn't a city, it's the proto-EU formed by BElgium, the
NEtherlands, and LUXembourg. The con is held in Tiel in the
Netherlands.

> And when is the con being held?

As I said in the original message (quoted above), 31 July through
2 August.

> I could do with a trip to Europe but I am tied to work a lot.



--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Refusing to be classified.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 9
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: European cons (was Re: 4. Hanauer SpieleCon)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 20:54:11 +0100
In article <199806281936.VAA05548@*****.xs4all.nl>, Gurth
<gurth@******.NL> writes
>Avenger said on 17:08/28 Jun 98,...
>> Benelux is Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg. :)
>> Be-Ne-Lux. Something to do with borders and stuff. I'm not sure what.
>> Someone from the area could perhaps explain better.
>
>Mostly it has to do with trade agreements and things, but the
>most obvious part is that you don't to go through customs when
>crossing the border. It's much the same as in the rest of the EU
>where border checkpoints were done away with a few years ago,
>but it happened much earlier. In many ways the Benelux has
>been an example for the EU.

So, to bring this on topic. Would that be the area now know in
Shadowrun as BeLux. Seeing as Ne part of it is underwater? <grin>

<ducks into bomb shelter>

--
Avenger
http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk/index.htm
(Newbies Survival Guide to Stk & SR stuff)
http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/angband/320/index.htm
(UK Survival Guide, SR Guide to the Oceans.)
Message no. 10
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: European cons (was Re: 4. Hanauer SpieleCon)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 11:22:29 +0100
Avenger said on 20:54/28 Jun 98,...

> So, to bring this on topic. Would that be the area now know in
> Shadowrun as BeLux. Seeing as Ne part of it is underwater? <grin>

Here we go again...

SR books are very vague about this part of the world,
unfortunately. Going by some references, it appears like the
Netherlands and Belgium have (re-)united, at least going by the
"United Netherlands" name that gets used a lot, but from others
it looks like Belgium is still separate...

Either could be realistic, for example in Belgium IRL there are
right-wing Flemish parties that would welcome at least Flanders
(and probably all of Belgium) joining the Netherlands; I think
that if half the country here is underwater, perhaps the Dutch
government would feel the same way.

Let's not get into the "being underwater is unrealistic" discussion
again, though :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Refusing to be classified.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 11
From: Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject: Re: European cons (was Re: 4. Hanauer SpieleCon)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 10:27:28 +0000
On 28 Jun 98 at 20:54, Avenger wrote:

> So, to bring this on topic. Would that be the area now know in
> Shadowrun as BeLux. Seeing as Ne part of it is underwater? <grin>
>
> <ducks into bomb shelter>

<self control>I won't reply to this, I won't reply to this</self
control>
Arlgh... It's not! I tell you, we Dutch are everywhere and we're
going to take over Europe bit by bit, starting with those damn Arko
Blocks.*pant*pant*
Darned I'm still pissed off at FASA for not giving us a bit
more credit for having the best coastal protection. And anyway, the
Dutch are mentioned in both the Germany source book and T:SH.
And if I remember correctly it's the only part from the BeNeLux still
in existence in 2055-59. The Be part joined with the Ne part to form
the United Netherlands and the Lux part is now part of the Saar
Special Legislative Zone. So there :P :P

something different, I don't understand why they only mention
Amsterdam as a smuggler's haven. Rotterdam outclasses it by far and
is one of the biggest harbours in the world, which would make it
excellent for smuggling (heck, I think it already is). And don't tell
me it's underwater... grrrrrr (it's at the same altitude as Amsterdam
anyway and the way it's build makes it a far less likely target for a
watery grave)

Martin
(who is Dutch and moved to the Tir just in case FASA is right)

Karina & Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie
Message no. 12
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: European cons (was Re: 4. Hanauer SpieleCon)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 20:14:41 +0100
Martin Steffens said on 10:27/29 Jun 98,...

> <self control>I won't reply to this, I won't reply to this</self
> control>

It's no use, that's the way I used to think to but these kinds of
things HAVE to be replied to... :)

> Arlgh... It's not! I tell you, we Dutch are everywhere and we're
> going to take over Europe bit by bit, starting with those damn Arko
> Blocks.*pant*pant*

Which are German... It also surprises me immensely anybody
would give permission for those things to be built, if you look at
the commotion nowadays over "horizon pollution" by things like
modern windmills and high-rise apartment buildings on the sea
front...

> Darned I'm still pissed off at FASA for not giving us a bit
> more credit for having the best coastal protection.

Same here, though I blame it on the Germans, after all they're
the ones who decided it would be nice to flood NL when they
wrote the Germany Sourcebook...

> And anyway, the
> Dutch are mentioned in both the Germany source book and T:SH.
> And if I remember correctly it's the only part from the BeNeLux still
> in existence in 2055-59. The Be part joined with the Ne part to form
> the United Netherlands

That's not specifically mentioned, is it? All I remember the
Germany Sourcebook talk about is the "United Netherlands"
without saying what exactly that's supposed to be. To make this
even less clear, AFAIK the French-language France sourcebook
keeps Belgium as a separate country...

> something different, I don't understand why they only mention
> Amsterdam as a smuggler's haven.

Same here. Jon, if you're reading this, would you mind
enlightening us over the decision to make Amsterdam a
smuggler's haven instead of Rotterdam?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I guess I'm just the same as him -- I just didn't know it then.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 13
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: European cons (was Re: 4. Hanauer SpieleCon)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 16:35:29 -0400
At 08:14 PM 6/29/98 +0100, you wrote:

>Same here. Jon, if you're reading this, would you mind
>enlightening us over the decision to make Amsterdam a
>smuggler's haven instead of Rotterdam?

I have my own suspicion as to why it was done. Amsterdam has something of
a reputation for being a den of iniquity, at least over this side of the
pond. You know, red-light districts, buying pot and other drugs in the
open in a store, just like you would beer.

Rotterdam? Who's heard of that place? But Amsterdam is a place to party.

Or at least by American reputation/belief.

Jon probably has his own, correct, answer, but that's my reason and my guess.

Erik J.


"Ladies & Gentleman, the newest member of the band, the one and only Spice
Boy, GRUMPY SPICE!!!" <and the crowd goes wild!!!>
Message no. 14
From: ArcLight <arclight@**************.COM>
Subject: Re: European cons (was Re: 4. Hanauer SpieleCon)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 23:41:54 +0200
Gurth wrote:

> > Arlgh... It's not! I tell you, we Dutch are everywhere and we're
> > going to take over Europe bit by bit, starting with those damn Arko
> > Blocks.*pant*pant*

> Which are German... It also surprises me immensely anybody
> would give permission for those things to be built, if you look at
> the commotion nowadays over "horizon pollution" by things like
> modern windmills and high-rise apartment buildings on the sea
> front...

It seems to me that the coast is so far away that nobody actually sees
them

> > Darned I'm still pissed off at FASA for not giving us a bit
> > more credit for having the best coastal protection.
>
> Same here, though I blame it on the Germans, after all they're
> the ones who decided it would be nice to flood NL when they
> wrote the Germany Sourcebook...

As cities like Emden and other parts of Ostfriesland were flooded,the
water may have taken the land from "behind". No Deiche at all ; )

> > And anyway, the
> > Dutch are mentioned in both the Germany source book and T:SH.
> > And if I remember correctly it's the only part from the BeNeLux > > still
> > in existence in 2055-59. The Be part joined with the Ne part to form
> > the United Netherlands
>
> That's not specifically mentioned, is it? All I remember the
> Germany Sourcebook talk about is the "United Netherlands"
> without saying what exactly that's supposed to be. To make this
> even less clear, AFAIK the French-language France sourcebook
> keeps Belgium as a separate country...

is this one going to be published in english?

--
ArcLight
ICQ#14322211
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
don't write with capitals, that's how *they* get you
Message no. 15
From: Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject: Re: European cons (was Re: 4. Hanauer SpieleCon)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 23:22:55 +0000
On 29 Jun 98 at 11:22, Gurth wrote:


> Let's not get into the "being underwater is unrealistic" discussion
> again, though :)

Ah, hum, yeah, I obviously missed that one. Touchy subject with you
too I guess :)
Ignore my remarks about this, I'll read up on the logs when I got the
time.


Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie
Message no. 16
From: Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject: Re: European cons (was Re: 4. Hanauer SpieleCon)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 10:23:12 +0000
On 29 Jun 98 at 16:35, Erik Jameson wrote:

> I have my own suspicion as to why it was done. Amsterdam has something of
> a reputation for being a den of iniquity, at least over this side of the
> pond. You know, red-light districts, buying pot and other drugs in the
> open in a store, just like you would beer.

Yeah, well the rules that work in Amsterdam also work for the rest of
the country. And buying anything than pot in those stores is not very
likely, pot is ok with the police, the stronger stuff is just as
illegal as anywhere else and those store owners wouldn't want to
endanger their semi-legitimate business too much.
It's just because the centre of the town looks so historically quaint
and tourist came there in droves that it's bigger than anywhere else.
Must cater to those poor starved tourist, don't we? :)

> Rotterdam? Who's heard of that place? But Amsterdam is a place to party.

Probably the smugglers, if I remember correctly it is one of the main
transport points for drugs from the cartels. And it wouldn't suprise
me if it was for a whole lot more illegal stuff. That harbour is so
big, you could lose a ship in it. Amsterdam's harbour is nothing
much, plus the city centre is build on stilts, so if anything is
going to go *blub* when the flood comes, it's the quaint canals and
coffee shops in Amsterdam :>

> Jon probably has his own, correct, answer, but that's my reason and my guess.

Your guess is probably right... sigh,

Karina & Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie
Message no. 17
From: Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject: Re: European cons (was Re: 4. Hanauer SpieleCon)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 10:23:12 +0000
On 29 Jun 98 at 20:14, Gurth wrote:

> > Arlgh... It's not! I tell you, we Dutch are everywhere and we're
> > going to take over Europe bit by bit, starting with those damn Arko
> > Blocks.*pant*pant*
> Which are German...

Actually Groningen is also an Arkoblock. But the company who owns
them is a combine of Renraku, Shell (??!!), Sumitomo, S-K, AG Chemie
and ZetaImpChem.

> It also surprises me immensely anybody
> would give permission for those things to be built, if you look at
> the commotion nowadays over "horizon pollution" by things like
> modern windmills and high-rise apartment buildings on the sea
> front...

Well since the sea there is supposed to be a horrible poisonous
sludge, I am suprised that anyone would want to build there. And I
guess with all the pollution there, a few arkoblocks wouldn't hurt
that much. It was probably more a case of "live here under a glass
dome, or swim back to the main land".

> Same here, though I blame it on the Germans, after all they're
> the ones who decided it would be nice to flood NL when they
> wrote the Germany Sourcebook...

Yeah, Oh My God, they killed our country, You Bastards!!!

> That's not specifically mentioned, is it? All I remember the
> Germany Sourcebook talk about is the "United Netherlands"
> without saying what exactly that's supposed to be.

p. 43 : Only the economic aid of the neighbouring countries allows
this remnant of the Nederlands and Belgium to exist.

> To make this
> even less clear, AFAIK the French-language France sourcebook
> keeps Belgium as a separate country...

Since when does that exists? And is it an official source book, or
is it just like the German before FASA gave it it's seal of approval?


Karina & Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie
Message no. 18
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: European cons (was Re: 4. Hanauer SpieleCon)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 12:57:44 +0100
Martin Steffens said on 23:22/29 Jun 98,...

> > Let's not get into the "being underwater is unrealistic" discussion
> > again, though :)
>
> Ah, hum, yeah, I obviously missed that one. Touchy subject with you
> too I guess :)
> Ignore my remarks about this, I'll read up on the logs when I got the
> time.

Pete Sims and I wasted enough KB over this, and I've been
informed that he started it on purpose this time to provoke a
reaction like the one we gave him... :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I guess I'm just the same as him -- I just didn't know it then.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 19
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: European cons (was Re: 4. Hanauer SpieleCon)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 12:57:44 +0100
ArcLight said on 23:41/29 Jun 98,...

> It seems to me that the coast is so far away that nobody actually sees
> them

I doubt it. They're what, a km tall? You're going to be able to see
them all the way from Paris (well, almost :)

> > Same here, though I blame it on the Germans, after all they're
> > the ones who decided it would be nice to flood NL when they
> > wrote the Germany Sourcebook...
>
> As cities like Emden and other parts of Ostfriesland were flooded,the
> water may have taken the land from "behind". No Deiche at all ; )

That's the only explanation I could come up with, yeah. If the
dykes in northern Germany broke, then the north-eastern part of
the Netherlands could get flooded too. And I don't see the
Afsluitdijk breaking any time soon (that's the dam closing off the
IJsselmeer ("Ijsselmeer," as T:SH calls it, is bad spelling BTW)).

> > AFAIK the French-language France sourcebook
> > keeps Belgium as a separate country...
>
> is this one going to be published in english?

I don't know, it was written and published by the French
company that markets SR in France. If you speak French you
could buy it, but as my French is severely limited I haven't got a
copy.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I guess I'm just the same as him -- I just didn't know it then.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 20
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: European cons (was Re: 4. Hanauer SpieleCon)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 20:14:06 +0100
Martin Steffens said on 10:23/30 Jun 98,...

> Actually Groningen is also an Arkoblock.

And Rotterdam, according to Deutschland In Den Schatten.

> Well since the sea there is supposed to be a horrible poisonous
> sludge, I am suprised that anyone would want to build there. And I
> guess with all the pollution there, a few arkoblocks wouldn't hurt
> that much. It was probably more a case of "live here under a glass
> dome, or swim back to the main land".

I still find it very hard to believe... It would be much more likely
for the government to decide on another delta plan and pump the
flooded parts of the country dry again, even if it'll take them 50
years.

> > To make this
> > even less clear, AFAIK the French-language France sourcebook
> > keeps Belgium as a separate country...
>
> Since when does that exists? And is it an official source book, or
> is it just like the German before FASA gave it it's seal of approval?

It's like DidS in that it was published by a French company, and
AFAIK it's not been translated into English so that probably
means it's not a part of the official SR timeline.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Could you ever be alone?
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 21
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: European cons (was Re: 4. Hanauer SpieleCon)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 14:33:11 -0400
At 10:23 AM 6/30/98 +0000, you wrote:
>On 29 Jun 98 at 16:35, Erik Jameson wrote:
>
>> I have my own suspicion as to why it was done. Amsterdam has something of
>> a reputation for being a den of iniquity, at least over this side of the
>> pond. You know, red-light districts, buying pot and other drugs in the
>> open in a store, just like you would beer.
>
>Yeah, well the rules that work in Amsterdam also work for the rest of
>the country.

Yes, but Amsterdam is all we ever hear about this side of the pond.
Percepetion defines reality after all.

>> Rotterdam? Who's heard of that place? But Amsterdam is a place to party.
>
>Probably the smugglers, if I remember correctly it is one of the main
>transport points for drugs from the cartels. And it wouldn't suprise
>me if it was for a whole lot more illegal stuff. That harbour is so
>big, you could lose a ship in it. Amsterdam's harbour is nothing
>much, plus the city centre is build on stilts, so if anything is
>going to go *blub* when the flood comes, it's the quaint canals and
>coffee shops in Amsterdam :>

Cool.

Now if Gurth ever finished writing that bit on his homeland for NERPS, I'm
sure I could read all about it... <hint hint>.

But you're right, it does sound like Rotterdam would have been more
appropriate. Oh well. I doubt my runners will ever visit there anyway.

Erik J.


"Forgive me FASA for I have sinned. It has been 6 days since I last played
Shadowrun and 15 days since I last bought a SRTCG booster pack."
Message no. 22
From: Geoff Morochnick <bodiam@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: European cons (was Re: 4. Hanauer SpieleCon)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 22:30:43 -0400
> >Since we're talking about conventions now, does anyone of our
> >European listmembers plan on going to GenCon Benelux, 31 July
> >through 2 August? I just got a program booklet for it from WotC
> >Belgium (without having asked for one, and I wonder where they
> >got my address from...).
>
> Forgive my ignorance of Geography but where is Benelux? (if thats the
> city). And when is the con being held?

<snip sig>

As I recall, it's that little group of countries that sit between Germany
and France, that get run over during the World Wars...

--
Stonebow
A Good Friend Can Listen and Hear What Was Never Said.
(Thank you, Charles)
bodiam@**********.com
http://www.geocities.com/area51/corridor/8427
Message no. 23
From: Jon Szeto <JonSzeto@***.COM>
Subject: Re: European cons (was Re: 4. Hanauer SpieleCon)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 23:21:18 EDT
Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM> wrote,

> At 08:14 PM 6/29/98 +0100, you wrote:
>
> >Same here. Jon, if you're reading this, would you mind
> >enlightening us over the decision to make Amsterdam a
> >smuggler's haven instead of Rotterdam?
>
> I have my own suspicion as to why it was done. Amsterdam has something of
> a reputation for being a den of iniquity, at least over this side of the
> pond. You know, red-light districts, buying pot and other drugs in the
> open in a store, just like you would beer.
>
> Rotterdam? Who's heard of that place? But Amsterdam is a place to party.

That's one of them. Here are some others:

* I figured Rotterdam, as a big port city on a major waterway (the Rhein),
would probably be corp-dominated. True, that doesn't automatically discount
it as a smuggler haven, but too much corporate presence can be stifling
(gotta have those seedy bars and coffin hotels, ya'know).

* Amsterdam's on the Ijsselmeer (hey, that's the way my atlas spells it),
which makes it a prime candidate for flooding out (or at least a better
candidate than Rotterdam). IMO, I don't believe that ALL of the Netherlands
got flooded --- just the parts that matter. And there's nothing like a
half-flooded city to produce gang wars and water-filled Barrens --- adds
lots of local color.

* I've been to Amsterdam, but not Rotterdam. (Okay, only for a few days,
but I was there.)

* Who says that Rotterdam ISN'T a smuggler haven? Maybe it is, but it's
overshadowed by its better-known neighbor to the northeast. (And if so,
why would any of them want to draw attention to a well-kept secret?)

And most importantly....

* Pure ignorance. Sorry, but if I'd known that it would have annoyed
Gurth so much, then I would have made *Ostend* a smuggler haven
instead --- and STILL claimed it was in the United Netherlands! ;-)

-- Jon
Message no. 24
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: European cons (was Re: 4. Hanauer SpieleCon)
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 12:37:28 +0100
Erik Jameson said on 14:33/30 Jun 98,...

> Yes, but Amsterdam is all we ever hear about this side of the pond.
> Percepetion defines reality after all.

But that doesn't mean RPG books have to confirm stereotypes...

> Now if Gurth ever finished writing that bit on his homeland for NERPS, I'm
> sure I could read all about it... <hint hint>.

I really need to post something to NERPS about the NAGTTW...

> But you're right, it does sound like Rotterdam would have been more
> appropriate. Oh well. I doubt my runners will ever visit there anyway.

Same here.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Could you ever be alone?
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 25
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: European cons (was Re: 4. Hanauer SpieleCon)
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 12:37:29 +0100
Jon Szeto said on 23:21/30 Jun 98,...

> * Amsterdam's on the Ijsselmeer (hey, that's the way my atlas spells it),
> which makes it a prime candidate for flooding out (or at least a better
> candidate than Rotterdam). IMO, I don't believe that ALL of the Netherlands
> got flooded --- just the parts that matter.

Those interesting for the story, right? ;)

> * I've been to Amsterdam, but not Rotterdam. (Okay, only for a few days,
> but I was there.)

I know what people will think of my comments now but: you've
been there longer than I have :)

> * Who says that Rotterdam ISN'T a smuggler haven? Maybe it is, but it's
> overshadowed by its better-known neighbor to the northeast. (And if so,
> why would any of them want to draw attention to a well-kept secret?)

Good point. OTOH, people who don't know the area will assume
it's the _only_ smuggler haven around, just like I assume there
are no other ports of note in the area of Kronstadt.

> And most importantly....
>
> * Pure ignorance. Sorry, but if I'd known that it would have annoyed
> Gurth so much

It doesn't annoy me, it's just that (like everybody else who lives
in or near an area described in an SR sourcebook) I have a
different view on things than people who've never been there.

> then I would have made *Ostend* a smuggler haven
> instead --- and STILL claimed it was in the United Netherlands! ;-)

That's closer to where I live than Amsterdam, BTW :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Could you ever be alone?
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 26
From: Marcin Serkies <yasiu@***.NET.PL>
Subject: Re: European cons (was Re: 4. Hanauer SpieleCon)
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 10:25:21 +0200
At 16:35 98-06-29 -0400, you wrote:

>I have my own suspicion as to why it was done. Amsterdam has something of
>a reputation for being a den of iniquity, at least over this side of the
>pond. You know, red-light districts, buying pot and other drugs in the
>open in a store, just like you would beer.

Hey... Amsterdam in only one of cities in Netherlands and in all you can
grow stuff and buy it legally so... :)

>Rotterdam? Who's heard of that place? But Amsterdam is a place to party.

Rotterdam is nice too... believe me and it`s more ...dangerous... for me at
least

c-ya

.--] yASIu / lETHAl sOFTWARe dEVELOPMENt [--.
e-mAIl: yasiu@***.net.pl
Message no. 27
From: Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject: Re: European cons (was Re: 4. Hanauer SpieleCon)
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 14:54:03 +0000
and thus did Gurth spoke on 30 Jun 98 at 20:14:

> > Actually Groningen is also an Arkoblock.
> And Rotterdam, according to Deutschland In Den Schatten.

Not in the English version, someone in FASA must have realized that
the germans who wrote the book were going a bit over the edge there
:).
I remember that when I first read that book that I was very
annoyed that the ArkoBlocks are hardly mentioned in the English
version.

> I still find it very hard to believe... It would be much more likely
> for the government to decide on another delta plan and pump the
> flooded parts of the country dry again, even if it'll take them 50
> years.

In the west yes, specially since it's the economic centre of the
country, and it probably wouldn't take them very long. Floods usually
only break through small portions of the dikes. when the storm is
over, start pumping out the water and fill up the holes. Add a few
years to get rid of toxic sludge and, presto fresh start!
In the north... well lets say that the Frisians would suddenly have
my full support for independence :)

BTW, did your long discussion also include the small problem of it
being impossible for a spring tide storm to affect two different
coast lines at the same time (west wind for Holland and North for
Germany / northern Netherlands), and the small fact that the neat
little string of islands in the north, plus the shallow Waddenzee are
perfect wave breakers?
I think in the true spirit of SR the German writers just messed up
the country as much as possible, or else they wrote it just after the
Netherlands beat them in some sort of football match ;).

BTW, the English version does mention the Afsluitdijk as a breaking
point, so the wind had to be northerly (and helped by an asteroid
dropping in the sea just of the coast).

Martin,
(who would have been living in the dryer parts of the Netherlands if
he had stayed there)
Message no. 28
From: ArcLight <arclight@**************.COM>
Subject: Re: European cons (was Re: 4. Hanauer SpieleCon)
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 17:53:03 +0200
Martin Steffens wrote:

< snip >

> BTW, did your long discussion also include the small problem of it
> being impossible for a spring tide storm to affect two different
> coast lines at the same time (west wind for Holland and North for
> Germany / northern Netherlands), and the small fact that the neat
> little string of islands in the north, plus the shallow Waddenzee are
> perfect wave breakers?
> I think in the true spirit of SR the German writers just messed up
> the country as much as possible, or else they wrote it just after the
> Netherlands beat them in some sort of football match ;).

they just hate campingtrailers ; )

< snip >

--
ArcLight
ICQ#14322211
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
who wants revenge for having Rudi Carell on TV friday evening..
Message no. 29
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: European cons (was Re: 4. Hanauer SpieleCon)
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 20:40:54 +0100
Martin Steffens said on 14:54/1 Jul 98,...

> > And Rotterdam, according to Deutschland In Den Schatten.
>
> Not in the English version, someone in FASA must have realized that
> the germans who wrote the book were going a bit over the edge there
> :).

I just checked page 33 of DidS v.2.01 and it doesn't mention
Rotterdam as having an Arkoblock specifically, but as a "similar
project." It also mentions that in 2030 they started building the
Arkoblocks in Emden, Bremerhaven and Groningen, aiming to
open the first to the public in early summer 2054, and 2055 and
'57 for the next two. The smaller one at Helgoland is supposed to
open in 2056, but only for Proteus-personnel.

> In the west yes, specially since it's the economic centre of the
> country, and it probably wouldn't take them very long. Floods usually
> only break through small portions of the dikes. when the storm is
> over, start pumping out the water and fill up the holes. Add a few
> years to get rid of toxic sludge and, presto fresh start!

Yep, my idea too.

> In the north... well lets say that the Frisians would suddenly have
> my full support for independence :)

As far as there's still a place to live there. Hey! I thought of
something... there's no more Elfstedentocht because of this storm!

> BTW, did your long discussion also include the small problem of it
> being impossible for a spring tide storm to affect two different
> coast lines at the same time (west wind for Holland and North for
> Germany / northern Netherlands), and the small fact that the neat
> little string of islands in the north, plus the shallow Waddenzee are
> perfect wave breakers?

Most likely the islands would have been swept away or seriously
changed in size and location, but I have a feeling the main coast
would have remained fairly unaffected. The same goes for the
German coast, as the Waddeneilanden extend all the way to
Denmark.

> I think in the true spirit of SR the German writers just messed up
> the country as much as possible, or else they wrote it just after the
> Netherlands beat them in some sort of football match ;).

SR wasn't published in 1988, was it? :)

> BTW, the English version does mention the Afsluitdijk as a breaking
> point, so the wind had to be northerly (and helped by an asteroid
> dropping in the sea just of the coast).

It was a northerly storm, according to what I remember from
DidS (I haven't checked it right now). I think I'm in one of the
best places to be with a storm like this, apart from Limburg of
course...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Could you ever be alone?
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 30
From: Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject: Re: European cons (was Re: 4. Hanauer SpieleCon)
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 22:25:56 +0000
and thus did Jon Szeto speak on 30 Jun 98 at 23:21:

> * Amsterdam's on the Ijsselmeer (hey, that's the way my atlas spells it),
> which makes it a prime candidate for flooding out (or at least a better
> candidate than Rotterdam). IMO, I don't believe that ALL of the Netherlands
> got flooded --- just the parts that matter. And there's nothing like a
> half-flooded city to produce gang wars and water-filled Barrens --- adds
> lots of local color.

Judging by the smell that now sometimes comes from those canals, it's
probably a dark brown or dirty green color :).
Hmm jetski gangs... neat!

> * Who says that Rotterdam ISN'T a smuggler haven? Maybe it is, but it's
> overshadowed by its better-known neighbor to the northeast. (And if so,
> why would any of them want to draw attention to a well-kept secret?)

The Tourists think the Netherlands is Amsterdam and some dikes and
tulips, and so will the international smugglers? Sounds okay. I like
the idea of having it kept secret by the locals. Plus I can imagine
that Johnny Local knowns a lot more places to land his goods from sea
and wants to keep the competition away.

> And most importantly....
>
> * Pure ignorance. Sorry, but if I'd known that it would have annoyed
> Gurth so much, then I would have made *Ostend* a smuggler haven
> instead --- and STILL claimed it was in the United Netherlands! ;-)

Well according to the Germany source book Ostend would be a part of
the UN (somehow that abbrevation doesn't work). You could make up by
making Dunkerque a famous pirate harbour again, /and/ make it part of
the United Netherlands :).

Martin,
(who loves the idea of pirates in SR: Yoho and a bottle of syth rum!)
Message no. 31
From: Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject: Re: European cons (was Re: 4. Hanauer SpieleCon)
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 22:25:56 +0000
and thus did Geoff Morochnick speak on 30 Jun 98 at 22:30:

[Benelux]
> As I recall, it's that little group of countries that sit between Germany
> and France, that get run over during the World Wars...

<BG> that's the best definition I've ever heard!
Visit the Benelux, the road kill of Europe</BG>

Karina & Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie
Message no. 32
From: Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject: Re: European cons (was Re: 4. Hanauer SpieleCon)
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 22:25:56 +0000
and thus did Marcin Serkies speak on 1 Jul 98 at 10:25:

> Hey... Amsterdam in only one of cities in Netherlands and in all you can
> grow stuff and buy it legally so... :)

within limits, and it's kinda confusion this semi-legality. It
reminds me a bit of Berlin in SR, once you you get too big they chop
you down a bit. with the difference that the police does the actual
chopping.
I found it kinda funny and fitting that Californian hots are legal
there and not in the other European countries. History repeats
itself..

> Rotterdam is nice too... believe me and it's more ...dangerous... for me at
> least

Heh, ran into some gangs? Seriously, if you're not careful where
you're going at night it can be very dangerous. It's a bit like New
Orleans (or Dublin for that matter), walking from one street to the
next and suddenly you're not in the nice busy part of the city
any more. The city is not as relaxed as Amsterdam (not that nothing
ever happens there..)

Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie

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