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Message no. 1
From: scotthiller2002@*****.com (Scott Hiller)
Subject: Events Changes
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 21:23:03 -0700 (PDT)
Wit hthe advent of SR$, will events such as Bug City
and the Renraku Arcology Shutdown be revised? Or will
they remain the same?

-Scott
Message no. 2
From: owen@***.edu.au (Owen McKerrow)
Subject: Events Changes
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 14:34:37 +1000
On 14/04/2005, at 2:23 PM, Scott Hiller wrote:

> Wit hthe advent of SR$, will events such as Bug City
> and the Renraku Arcology Shutdown be revised? Or will
> they remain the same?
>
> -Scott
>

I would say stay the same. As far as SR4 goes, those things are history
i.e. backstory. I can't see them bringing out 4th Ed versions of those
books.
As has been discussed else where, they didn't "revise" the adventures
and source books between SR1 and SR2 and didn't evise them between SR2
and SR3. Thay have said they will include a "how to take a 3rd ed char
to 4th ed " guide so you may be able to use that.

I've been running a number of the older adventures lately (Elven fire
at the moment actually ) and as far as updating that to SR3 rules, I
just need to change the weapons damage of the guns the NPC's use as
well as work out there Combat/Spell pools. Everything else seems to
have stayed the same.
Message no. 3
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Events Changes
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 11:15:03 +0200
According to Scott Hiller, on 14-04-2005 06:23 the word on the street was...

> Wit hthe advent of SR$
^^^
Nice typo :)

> will events such as Bug City
> and the Renraku Arcology Shutdown be revised? Or will
> they remain the same?

Since the timeline will be moved a few years into the future, I doubt
SR4 will have any impact on events that already happened. Unless a
Throckmorton Device appears in the new edition, of course... :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Kemen (keemde, h gekeemd): het spelen van computerspelletjes
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 4
From: maxnoel_fr@*****.fr (Max Noel)
Subject: Events Changes
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 11:19:45 +0200
On Apr 14, 2005, at 11:15, Gurth wrote:

> Since the timeline will be moved a few years into the future, I doubt
> SR4 will have any impact on events that already happened. Unless a
> Throckmorton Device appears in the new edition, of course... :)

A what?

-- Wild_Cat
maxnoel_fr at yahoo dot fr -- ICQ #85274019
"Look at you hacker... A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting
and sweating as you run through my corridors... How can you challenge a
perfect, immortal machine?"
Message no. 5
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Events Changes
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 11:57:06 +0200
According to Max Noel, on 14-04-2005 11:19 the word on the street was...

>> Unless a
>> Throckmorton Device appears in the new edition, of course... :)
>
> A what?

Don't worry, its effects would already be obvious by now. Then again,
maybe that's exactly why we're not seeing them...

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Kemen (keemde, h gekeemd): het spelen van computerspelletjes
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 6
From: Paul.Grosse@***********.com (Paul Grosse)
Subject: Events Changes
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 08:14:52 -0500
> > Wit hthe advent of SR$, will events such as Bug City and
> the Renraku
> > Arcology Shutdown be revised? Or will they remain the same?
> >
> > -Scott
> >
>
> I would say stay the same. As far as SR4 goes, those things
> are history i.e. backstory. I can't see them bringing out 4th
> Ed versions of those books.
> As has been discussed else where, they didn't "revise" the
> adventures and source books between SR1 and SR2 and didn't
> evise them between SR2 and SR3. Thay have said they will
> include a "how to take a 3rd ed char to 4th ed " guide so you
> may be able to use that.
>
> I've been running a number of the older adventures lately
> (Elven fire at the moment actually ) and as far as updating
> that to SR3 rules, I just need to change the weapons damage
> of the guns the NPC's use as well as work out there
> Combat/Spell pools. Everything else seems to have stayed the same.
>

Actually something I'd be interested in seeing after the 4th edition
book comes out, depending on how much is covered in the core book, is a
back history book, or series of books maybe seeing as there is a lot of
history. And have a title like "The Shadowrun Universe Encyclopaedia" or
something similer, maybe with the first book being a quick summary of
the history, and then the rest of the series dealing with a set number
of years or events in depth.

And these books would be nothing but fluff meaning that it would be
useful no matter what version SR eventually goes to. Of course it could
also be done as a PDF series, but I'd prefer a nice set of books I could
place on my shelf to display my geekyness :)

Paul G.
Message no. 7
From: weberm@*******.net (Michael Weber)
Subject: Events Changes
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 09:37:40 -0400
"Paul Grosse" <Paul.Grosse@***********.com> wrote:

>And these books would be nothing but fluff meaning that it would be
>useful no matter what version SR eventually goes to.

I don't think that's what's meant by "fluff".
I prefer the term "crunchy bits" myself.
Message no. 8
From: adamj@*********.com (Adam Jury)
Subject: Events Changes
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 07:41:07 -0600
On 14-Apr-05, at 7:37 AM, Michael Weber wrote:

> "Paul Grosse" <Paul.Grosse@***********.com> wrote:
>
>> And these books would be nothing but fluff meaning that it would be
>> useful no matter what version SR eventually goes to.
>
> I don't think that's what's meant by "fluff".
> I prefer the term "crunchy bits" myself.

Fluff and crunchy bits are -- in typical game terms -- opposites.

Fluff is world details, crunch is mechanics.

Adam
Message no. 9
From: mattgbond@********.com (Matthew Bond)
Subject: Events Changes
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 15:51:25 +0100
Paul Grosse wrote:
> Actually something I'd be interested in seeing after the 4th edition
> book comes out, depending on how much is covered in the core book, is
> a
> back history book, or series of books maybe seeing as there is a lot
> of
> history. And have a title like "The Shadowrun Universe Encyclopaedia"
> or
> something similer, maybe with the first book being a quick summary of
> the history, and then the rest of the series dealing with a set number
> of years or events in depth.
>
> And these books would be nothing but fluff meaning that it would be
> useful no matter what version SR eventually goes to. Of course it
> could
> also be done as a PDF series, but I'd prefer a nice set of books I
> could
> place on my shelf to display my geekyness :)

I really can't see the point of that. If those events are still
'current' in your game then you are presumably still running SR3 and
such a book would basically be the SR3 Big Book of Spoilers, and if they
are 'history' then a paragraph or two in the timeline notes at the
begining of SR4 will probably suffice to cover each story arc. Maybe
half a page per arc. New Players need to know little more, older players
have probably been through the events themselves or only know what they
heard on the newsvids.

If you want to parade your geekiness just buy the original adventures on
eBay...

Matt



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Message no. 10
From: Paul.Grosse@***********.com (Paul Grosse)
Subject: Events Changes
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 12:11:58 -0500
> "Paul Grosse" <Paul.Grosse@***********.com> wrote:
>
> >And these books would be nothing but fluff meaning that it would be
> >useful no matter what version SR eventually goes to.
>
> I don't think that's what's meant by "fluff".
> I prefer the term "crunchy bits" myself.
>
>

Commonly what I've always heard "Crunchy Bits(tm)" refered to was actual
game mechanics, where as fluff was game text, class descriptions etc.

Paul G.
Message no. 11
From: justin@***********.net (Justin Bell)
Subject: Events Changes
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 12:12:39 -0500
Paul Grosse wrote:
>>"Paul Grosse" <Paul.Grosse@***********.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>And these books would be nothing but fluff meaning that it would be
>>>useful no matter what version SR eventually goes to.
>>
>>I don't think that's what's meant by "fluff".
>>I prefer the term "crunchy bits" myself.
>>
>>
>
>
> Commonly what I've always heard "Crunchy Bits(tm)" refered to was actual
> game mechanics, where as fluff was game text, class descriptions etc.

Then there's the crunch is the rules, flavour is the game text and fluff
is the layout.
Message no. 12
From: Paul.Grosse@***********.com (Paul Grosse)
Subject: Events Changes
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 12:21:15 -0500
> Paul Grosse wrote:
> > Actually something I'd be interested in seeing after the
> 4th edition
> > book comes out, depending on how much is covered in the
> core book, is
> > a back history book, or series of books maybe seeing as
> there is a lot
> > of history. And have a title like "The Shadowrun Universe
> > Encyclopaedia"
> > or
> > something similar, maybe with the first book being a quick
> summary of
> > the history, and then the rest of the series dealing with a
> set number
> > of years or events in depth.
> >
> > And these books would be nothing but fluff meaning that it would be
> > useful no matter what version SR eventually goes to. Of course it
> > could also be done as a PDF series, but I'd prefer a nice
> set of books
> > I could place on my shelf to display my geekyness :)
>
> I really can't see the point of that. If those events are
> still 'current' in your game then you are presumably still
> running SR3 and such a book would basically be the SR3 Big
> Book of Spoilers, and if they are 'history' then a paragraph
> or two in the timeline notes at the beginning of SR4 will
> probably suffice to cover each story arc. Maybe half a page
> per arc. New Players need to know little more, older players
> have probably been through the events themselves or only know
> what they heard on the newsvids.
>
> If you want to parade your geekyness just buy the original
> adventures on eBay...
>
> Matt
>

But my point is two fold, a) At some point none of the original books
will be available, granted that's a long time in the future and b) if
somebody is just getting into the game because of the 4th edition, he
does NOT want to buy anything of the previous versions just to get the
history.

Now I realize it might not be economically feasible for FanPro to
generate this but I can always dream, because I am one of the ones that
won't buy the old adventures/books simply for the fluff.

But then again I don't know how much fluff is being added to the core
book. But I still like having a concrete structure to hang my game on,
and I also like knowing what directions the original game designers were
intending for the world to go with. I might not totally agree with them
but I like following thought processes.

Paul G.
Message no. 13
From: adamj@*********.com (Adam Jury)
Subject: Events Changes
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 11:30:06 -0600
On 14-Apr-05, at 11:12 AM, Justin Bell wrote:

> Then there's the crunch is the rules, flavour is the game text and
> fluff
> is the layout.

Gack, no. The way most people in the industry use it:

"The Amazing Fluffy Bunnies are found in the lands far to the North of
the Southlands" <- Fluff. Bad fluff, too.

"Any character taking the Amazing Fluffy Bunny class automatically gets
+2 to Scoring With Other Bunnies checks." <- Crunch.

Cheers,
Adam
Message no. 14
From: weberm@*******.net (Michael Weber)
Subject: Events Changes
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 13:47:34 -0400
"Paul Grosse" <Paul.Grosse@***********.com> wrote:

>Now I realize it might not be economically feasible for FanPro to
>generate this but I can always dream, because I am one of the ones that
>won't buy the old adventures/books simply for the fluff.

There's always the PDFs being sold by the wonderfull people at DriveThruRPG...
Message no. 15
From: weberm@*******.net (Michael Weber)
Subject: Events Changes
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 13:51:29 -0400
Adam Jury <adamj@*********.com> wrote:

>Gack, no. The way most people in the industry use it:
>
>"The Amazing Fluffy Bunnies are found in the lands far to the North of
>the Southlands" <- Fluff. Bad fluff, too.
>
>"Any character taking the Amazing Fluffy Bunny class automatically gets
>+2 to Scoring With Other Bunnies checks." <- Crunch.

I can't say I've ever heard of "fluff" (something light and airy and lacking
in substance) as referring to something substantive in a game.
Message no. 16
From: justin@***********.net (Justin Bell)
Subject: Events Changes
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 12:56:08 -0500
Adam Jury wrote:
>
> On 14-Apr-05, at 11:12 AM, Justin Bell wrote:
>
>> Then there's the crunch is the rules, flavour is the game text and fluff
>> is the layout.
>
>
> Gack, no. The way most people in the industry use it:
>
> "The Amazing Fluffy Bunnies are found in the lands far to the North of
> the Southlands" <- Fluff. Bad fluff, too.
>
> "Any character taking the Amazing Fluffy Bunny class automatically gets
> +2 to Scoring With Other Bunnies checks." <- Crunch.

See, I've had this discussion before, and fluff has way too many
negative connotations to refer to the substance of a game system. The
rules are all well and crunchy, sure, but the descriptions and substance
of the game are much more than what I'd call fluff. Fluff to me and a
lot of people is what they cann someone inconsequential etc.
Message no. 17
From: anders@**********.com (Anders Swenson)
Subject: Events Changes
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 13:19:56 -0700
On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 11:15:03 +0200
Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:
> According to Scott Hiller, on 14-04-2005 06:23 the word on the street
> was...
>
> > With the advent of SR$
> ^^^
OK, I know it's the itch to scratch of the month, but this whole topic has
degenerated into an unorganized moaning session. FanPro has to issue a new
core book once in a while just to keep the game solvent for them. We all know
this, and I suspect we're mostly adults who can buy a book every few years or
so. Certainly we can afford the supplements. I can get a discount, and I plan
to buy maybe 3 so I can jump start the local players by having extras at the
table for chargen and such. And I'm not a rich man. Why does the exact same
chorus of bellyaching happen EVERY time a company reorganizes the product
line?

To make our bandwidth expenditure count, put a halt to the whining, already,
and ask the playtesters and editors what input they need.
--Anders
Message no. 18
From: arclight@*********.de (Arclight)
Subject: Events Changes
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 23:03:15 +0200
At 22:19 14.04.2005, Anders Swenson wrote:

>Certainly we can afford the supplements. I can get a discount, and I plan
>to buy maybe 3 so I can jump start the local players by having extras at the
>table for chargen and such. And I'm not a rich man. Why does the exact same
>chorus of bellyaching happen EVERY time a company reorganizes the product
>line?

Too true.


--
Arclight

Quitters never win, winners never quit,
but those who never quit and never win are idiots
Message no. 19
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Events Changes
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 16:15:33 -0700 (PDT)
--- Anders Swenson <anders@**********.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 11:15:03 +0200
> Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:
> > According to Scott Hiller, on 14-04-2005 06:23 the word on the
> street
> > was...
> >
> > > With the advent of SR$
> > ^^^
> OK, I know it's the itch to scratch of the month, but this whole
> topic has
> degenerated into an unorganized moaning session. FanPro has to
> issue a new
> core book once in a while just to keep the game solvent for them.
> We all know
> this, and I suspect we're mostly adults who can buy a book every
> few years or
> so. Certainly we can afford the supplements. I can get a discount,
> and I plan
> to buy maybe 3 so I can jump start the local players by having
> extras at the
> table for chargen and such. And I'm not a rich man. Why does the
> exact same
> chorus of bellyaching happen EVERY time a company reorganizes the
> product
> line?

Some books on my shelf play nice with the other books, some don't.
When a company refines its existing product line by obsoleting it,
the belly-aching is to be expected. We've all proposed many ways SR3
could be refined, be it the rules or the setting. In most cases, the
resounding message is that more depths and breadth is desired. A new
ruleset and large timeline advances are both major distractions from
the task of filling out what is already created. In many cases, they
make any attempt to flesh out the setting or patch the rules wasted
effort. If you had an office running well on <insert OS of choice)
but had been out on user forums talking about how there is this one
area you'd like to see patched, you might not be too thrilled when
the word from on high was that instead of patching or supporting your
product, a whole new OS was getting released.

(Some people felt my analogy to music was a bit too apples and
oranges, but no worries, I am good at analogies. *grin* )

> To make our bandwidth expenditure count, put a halt to the whining,
> already, and ask the playtesters and editors what input they need.

Say what you want about wasted bandwidth, but before this thread
started the list was pretty darn quiet. If you don't want to read
"belly aching" you can always just delete any mail with a subject
heading referencing SR4... no?

======Korishinzo
--decides to lurk for a while



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Message no. 20
From: anders@**********.com (Anders Swenson)
Subject: Events Changes
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 20:18:32 -0700
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ice Heart" <korishinzo@*****.com>
> Say what you want about wasted bandwidth, but before this thread
> started the list was pretty darn quiet. If you don't want to read
> "belly aching" you can always just delete any mail with a subject
> heading referencing SR4... no?
>
Not really, all the headings mutate on a 1.85 day cycle.
--Anders
Message no. 21
From: mc23@**********.com (MC23)
Subject: Events Changes
Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 06:49:57 -0400
On Apr 14, 2005, at 4:19 PM, Anders Swenson wrote:

> OK, I know it's the itch to scratch of the month, but this whole topic
> has
> degenerated into an unorganized moaning session. FanPro has to issue a
> new
> core book once in a while just to keep the game solvent for them. We
> all know
> this, and I suspect we're mostly adults who can buy a book every few
> years or
> so. Certainly we can afford the supplements. I can get a discount, and
> I plan
> to buy maybe 3 so I can jump start the local players by having extras
> at the
> table for chargen and such. And I'm not a rich man. Why does the exact
> same
> chorus of bellyaching happen EVERY time a company reorganizes the
> product
> line?

Now look, I've never gone about belly-aching about a reorganization of
a product line. I am belly-aching about everything but the most
generalized concept of what is Shadowrun being changed with this new
edition. You should never ever change both the entire underlying rules
mechanics and the game universe at the same time. We have the basis for
Riggers and Deckers being turned upside down already with a leapfrog
timeline advance for the excuse for new rules (I HATE that as a game
designer's trick with an intense passion!). How many damn times can the
entire Matrix crash? Hell, rapid advances in Matrix technology is far
more believable and raises less questions as well. And I suspect there
has been a similar treatment to magic as well but we just haven't heard
much about that yet.

This isn't a new edition of Shadowrun. This is a completely new game.
And to be honest changing the game mechanics isn't what's bothering me,
it's changing the game setting to make the game mechanics fit is!

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"When _I_ use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful
tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less."
-Through the Looking Glass

I am MC23
Message no. 22
From: scott@**********.com (Scott Harrison)
Subject: Events Changes
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 11:00:41 +0200
On Apr 14, 2005, at 19:47, Michael Weber wrote:

> "Paul Grosse" <Paul.Grosse@***********.com> wrote:
>
>> Now I realize it might not be economically feasible for FanPro to
>> generate this but I can always dream, because I am one of the ones
>> that
>> won't buy the old adventures/books simply for the fluff.
>
> There's always the PDFs being sold by the wonderfull people at
> DriveThruRPG...
>
>
Speaking of which, I wonder where all the others are? I would love to
be able to GM an SR3 game from only my laptop (using all the books in
PDF format). And Tiger is soon to be released. :-)

--
·𐑕𐑒𐑪𐑑
·𐑣𐑺𐑦𐑕𐑩𐑯 Scott
Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86

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