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Message no. 1
From: Brian Spaugh SLIP <bspaugh@***********.NET>
Subject: Everyone(almost) who plays Shadowrun is a Munchkin!
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 20:19:14 EDT
Unless you play a character with no combat spells, or no
cyberware, depending on whether you're a mage-type or a street
sam-type, you're playing a Munchkin character. I mean who
plays a street-sam with no cyberware? Noone. If everyone played
what all the snobs on here would call 'realistic' Shadowrun
(what a laugh) the only people with cyberware would be those
who had already received a seriously traumatic injury. Elective
deadly surgery? I think not. Replacing burned out or blind eyes
with electonic ones that can see is 'realistic'. Plucking out
perfectly good ones during character creation for the 'total
package eyes' is ludicrous. And that's just one example. As far
as magic goes, Phys Ads are walking Munchkins. 'Nuff said. And
any mage out here with a force 6+ fireball/powerball/hellblast/
sleep/mind probe/etc. is just as much a Munchkin as the next guy.
Obviously there are going to be absurd exagerations of these
cases, and these are worthy of condemnation, but let's lay off
all of those players who are just trying to create a character
with 'survivability', a hot commodity in SR. After all, we're
all Munchkins underneath!

Brian Spaugh bspaugh@***********.net Angela Spaugh
"Honest to my own convictions, within the defined parameters of my mission."
Message no. 2
From: Kelly Martin <kelly@*******.BLOOMINGTON.IN.US>
Subject: Re: Everyone(almost) who plays Shadowrun is a Munchkin!
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 19:44:45 EST5
"Brian" == Brian Spaugh SLIP <bspaugh@***********.NET> writes:

Brian> If everyone played what all the snobs on here would call
Brian> 'realistic' Shadowrun (what a laugh) the only people with
Brian> cyberware would be those who had already received a seriously
Brian> traumatic injury. Elective deadly surgery? I think not.

you're not up with the way of the world in 2050. the only way you're
going to have an edge on the streets is to do exactly that. elective
cyberware is quite commonplace in the world of 2050, for any of a
number of things. you may find it absurd, but you're stuck in 1995.

Brian> Replacing burned out or blind eyes with electonic ones that can
Brian> see is 'realistic'. Plucking out perfectly good ones during
Brian> character creation for the 'total package eyes' is ludicrous.

why do you say that? it's trading humanity for tactical advantage,
and is _entirely_ within the context of the game milieux. this is
_not_ a mechanics issue!

Brian> And that's just one example. As far as magic goes, Phys Ads are
Brian> walking Munchkins. 'Nuff said. And any mage out here with a
Brian> force 6+ fireball/powerball/hellblast/ sleep/mind probe/etc. is
Brian> just as much a Munchkin as the next guy. Obviously there are
Brian> going to be absurd exagerations of these cases, and these are
Brian> worthy of condemnation, but let's lay off all of those players
Brian> who are just trying to create a character with 'survivability',
Brian> a hot commodity in SR. After all, we're all Munchkins
Brian> underneath!

by this argument, the cop who wears a bulletproof vest is a munchkin.
the soldier who wears body armor and carries an assault rifle is a
munchkin. the doctor who wears rubber gloves to protect himself from
infection is a munchkin. all because they took steps to promote their
own survival.

that's not munchkinism. that's common sense.

munchkinism is when _all_ the player does is promote their character's
_stats_. having good stats, and carefully crafting a character for a
purpose (which might very well be survivability) is not, in and of
itself, munchkinism.

k.
--
kelly martin <kelly@*******.bloomington.in.us>

You can't sue one hundred million people.
-- me, as quoted in the August 14, 1995 New York Times.
Message no. 3
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Everyone(almost) who plays Shadowrun is a Munchkin!
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 21:22:35 -0400
On Fri, 8 Sep 1995, Kelly Martin wrote:

> by this argument, the cop who wears a bulletproof vest is a munchkin.
> the soldier who wears body armor and carries an assault rifle is a
> munchkin. the doctor who wears rubber gloves to protect himself from
> infection is a munchkin. all because they took steps to promote their
> own survival.
>
> that's not munchkinism. that's common sense.
>
> munchkinism is when _all_ the player does is promote their character's
> _stats_. having good stats, and carefully crafting a character for a
> purpose (which might very well be survivability) is not, in and of
> itself, munchkinism.

I agree totally. You can have a character that's totally
optimized for combat/magic/decking/whatever. Does that make that
character a munchkin character? No. It's the *player* I'm concerned
with. When I as a GM say, "tell me about your character," and the first
thing out of the player's mouth is, "Well, he has an initiative score of
17+4D6!" or "She has a strength of 12 and a quickness of 10," then odds
are good that the player is thinking in munchkin mode.
When stats make up the character, the point behind role-playing
is seriously diminished. I will allow characters in my campaign that
others would consider munchkinous, but I mandate that they be
*characters* rather than conglomerations of numbers that the player rolls
without thought.
So before you go saying "we're all munchkins at heart" think
about what it means to be a munchkin.

Marc
Message no. 4
From: Kelly Martin <kelly@*******.BLOOMINGTON.IN.US>
Subject: Re: Everyone(almost) who plays Shadowrun is a Munchkin!
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 20:59:08 EST5
"Marc" == Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU> writes:


Marc> When I as a GM say, "tell me about
Marc> your character," and the first thing out of the player's mouth
Marc> is, "Well, he has an initiative score of 17+4D6!" or "She has a
Marc> strength of 12 and a quickness of 10," then odds are good that
Marc> the player is thinking in munchkin mode.

well put; you've said here very nicely what i was trying to say very
badly. :)

munchkins roll play, but rarely role play.

k.
--
kelly martin <kelly@*******.bloomington.in.us>

I could tell by his slurred speech, the heavy glaze over his eyes,
and his inability to stand straight that he was under the influence
of a powerful narcotic. That, or he was a graduate student.
Message no. 5
From: Nathan Walker <NTWALKER@******.SUNYGENESEE.CC.NY.US>
Subject: Re: Everyone(almost) who plays Shadowrun is a Munchkin!
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 1995 09:02:14 -0400
> When stats make up the character, the point behind role-playing
>is seriously diminished. I will allow characters in my campaign that
>others would consider munchkinous, but I mandate that they be
>*characters* rather than conglomerations of numbers that the player rolls
>without thought.

I played in a campaign once (**&*, of course) where all the characters were
were just sets of numbers, our GM did not even have us make up a character
background. This was the ultimate in munchkin campaigns.

My point is, the game was really boring, and I hated it, and I thought that
that was all that role-playing was. But once I figured out what role-playing
really is, then I got to like it alot more than I did in that first campaign.

I thought I was going somewhere with this, but I think I lost my point in
there somewhere (Help! I've lost my dot!) *about five minutes pass* Oh,
yeah, my point was that games specifically _for_ munchkins, and to a lesser
extent, with munchkin players in it, is not a fun game. It's not Role-playing,
and it's no fun. (I ruled out Magic: the addiction for the same reason)

Oh, and I have noticed that as far as replies go, I tend to give them a little
more respect if they're spelled correctly and capitalization. Does anyone
else notice this?

>>>>> Nate
------------------------------------------------------------------------
| NTWalker@******.SUNYGENESEE.CC.NY.US |
| Vax/VMS Guru (sad, but true) |
| |
| What kind of a world do we live in where a man dressed up as a bat |
| gets all my press? This town needs an enema! |
| - Joker |
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Message no. 6
From: pran r mukherjee <pran@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Everyone(almost) who plays Shadowrun is a Munchkin!
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 1995 12:59:56 -0400
On Fri, 8 Sep 1995, Brian Spaugh SLIP wrote:

> Unless you play a character with no combat spells, or no
> cyberware, depending on whether you're a mage-type or a street
> sam-type, you're playing a Munchkin character. I mean who

I personally play a moon druid mage with no cyberware, bioware, combat
spells (including manipulations), or combat skills. He's basically a
fixer who specializes in smuggling people and items where they need to
be. And who says that everyone needs to play a "mage-type or a street
sam-type"? These are by far not the only options open.

> plays a street-sam with no cyberware? Noone. If everyone played
> what all the snobs on here would call 'realistic' Shadowrun
> (what a laugh) the only people with cyberware would be those
> who had already received a seriously traumatic injury. Elective
> deadly surgery? I think not. Replacing burned out or blind eyes

Why not elective deadly surgery? If someone told you that you could be
far stronger than Arnold Schwartzenegger (sp?) within a couple of days of
surgery and a couple weeks of healing with little or no work on your
part, and you wanted to go out and be someone's bodyguard, you'd jump at
the chance.

> with electonic ones that can see is 'realistic'. Plucking out
> perfectly good ones during character creation for the 'total
> package eyes' is ludicrous. And that's just one example. As far
> as magic goes, Phys Ads are walking Munchkins. 'Nuff said. And
> any mage out here with a force 6+ fireball/powerball/hellblast/
> sleep/mind probe/etc. is just as much a Munchkin as the next guy.
> Obviously there are going to be absurd exagerations of these
> cases, and these are worthy of condemnation, but let's lay off
> all of those players who are just trying to create a character
> with 'survivability', a hot commodity in SR. After all, we're
> all Munchkins underneath!

Untrue. We have this argument every few months on this list, so I won't
expound greatly on the subject, but you don't really seem to have a clue
what is meant by the word Munchkin. A munchkin is someone who plays just
to have the most powerful character around rather than for the fun of
it. He/she twists any rule possible in order to gain this power, doesn't
really care much for plot or roleplaying, just personal character power.
If you had said mage with 6+ force powerball, force 6 specific spell
focus, fetish foci up the wazoo, etc and never really used anything else,
never roleplayed, just made a point to incinerate anything that got in
your way, that could be considered munchkin. I've already said more than
I wanted to, so I'll shut up now.

>
> Brian Spaugh bspaugh@***********.net Angela Spaugh
> "Honest to my own convictions, within the defined parameters of my
mission."
>
Message no. 7
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Everyone(almost) who plays Shadowrun is a Munchkin!
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 1995 11:29:45 GMT
In message <9509090019.AA10523@***********.net> SHADOWRN@*****.nic.surfnet.nl
writes:
>
> Replacing burned out or blind eyes
> with electonic ones that can see is 'realistic'. Plucking out
> perfectly good ones during character creation for the 'total
> package eyes' is ludicrous. And that's just one example.

Oh, no... I had this argument at length on rec.games.frp.cyber trying to
get my point across. All I can say is I've been on Army exercises at night
where on a dark rainy night you couldn't see past the end of your arm.
If I could get cybereyes with low-light and thermal in that situation,
it's literally a survival option.

For that matter, in real life I need five dioptres of contact lens in
each eye. If cybereyes were affordable, common and known to be safe (like,
millions installed and few problems) I'd seriously consider them just to
avoid having to wear contacts or glasses.

Remember, the PCs are people who go in harm's way. Deliberately. If they
don't secure every reasonable advantage, they're going to get their butts
kicked. This is called "role-playing" when the PCs evaluate the threats and
try to deal with them.

Munchkinism, IMHO, is when the PC exists only as a way to be bigger/better/
faster than everyone else. Most of my PCs could easily be called "munchkin"
from an evaluation of their stats... yet they are downright vulnerable,
because they have weaknesses, blind spots, consciences. Yes, you play your
PC to guard those weaknesses - but still sometimes you just say "Lynch
lays down the rifle and raises his hands..." even though you *know* the right
thing to do is to kill the terrorist and the hostage: because you also know
your PC would not do that.

--
"When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him." <R.A. Lafferty>

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 8
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Everyone(almost) who plays Shadowrun is a Munchkin!
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 1995 11:41:13 +0200
>I played in a campaign once (**&*, of course) where all the characters were
>were just sets of numbers, our GM did not even have us make up a character
>background. This was the ultimate in munchkin campaigns.

You are describing my first RPG-experience exactly... Except that I didn't
find it boring :)

>yeah, my point was that games specifically _for_ munchkins, and to a lesser
>extent, with munchkin players in it, is not a fun game. It's not Role-playing,
>and it's no fun. (I ruled out Magic: the addiction for the same reason)

Why not? Sure, I like SR better than **&*, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't
like to kill off 40-50 orcs and kobolds without any fear of somebody coming
after me every once in a while :)

>Oh, and I have noticed that as far as replies go, I tend to give them a little
>more respect if they're spelled correctly and capitalization. Does anyone
>else notice this?

You'll get flamed if you're not careful (not by me, I agree with you), but
this _has_ come up before and not everyone was keen on being told they
couldn't spell their native language...

--
Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
He has you all fooled
-> Unofficial Shadowrun Guru & NERPS Project Leader <-
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Message no. 9
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Everyone(almost) who plays Shadowrun is a Munchkin!
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 1995 11:41:25 +0200
>For that matter, in real life I need five dioptres of contact lens in
>each eye. If cybereyes were affordable, common and known to be safe (like,
>millions installed and few problems) I'd seriously consider them just to
>avoid having to wear contacts or glasses.

Same thing here -- I'm near-sighted (I can't read a license plate at 20
meters...) but I'm too stubborn (or maybe stupid :) to wear glasses, let
alone contact lenses. Now if there weren't all these rumors about eye
surgery going bad, I might look into that. Same thing if cybereyes were
available and safe, I'd seriously start thinking about that. And then quite
probably including something like a low-light option (for which I have
nearly no use because I hardly ever go anywhere I might need it, but like I
said, I like gadgets :)

>Munchkinism, IMHO, is when the PC exists only as a way to be bigger/better/
>faster than everyone else. Most of my PCs could easily be called "munchkin"
>from an evaluation of their stats... yet they are downright vulnerable,
>because they have weaknesses, blind spots, consciences.

I (used to) have a player who could very easily be called a munchkin,
looking at his character's stats. Body 12, Strength 9, that sort of thing
(he's human, not ork or troll...). But the player plays/-ed the character
with definite weaknesses. "Elementals? I shoot my Colt!" even though the
player damn well knows he would do much more harm to them if he punched them
instead.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
He has you all fooled
-> Unofficial Shadowrun Guru & NERPS Project Leader <-
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Message no. 10
From: "Stephen M. Bugge" <bugge@********.EDU>
Subject: Re: Everyone(almost) who plays Shadowrun is a Munchkin!
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 1995 03:43:22 -0700
> >Oh, and I have noticed that as far as replies go, I tend to give them a little
> >more respect if they're spelled correctly and capitalization. Does anyone
> >else notice this?
>
> You'll get flamed if you're not careful (not by me, I agree with you), but
> this _has_ come up before and not everyone was keen on being told they
> couldn't spell their native language...
>

i WUZ Ebedukaddedd iN dA CeeeADDul PubLik SkuuL Sistum.

Stiev

<Grin> <stupid Laugh at Inside joke>
Message no. 11
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Everyone(almost) who plays Shadowrun is a Munchkin!
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 1995 12:03:24 -0400
On Sun, 10 Sep 1995, Stephen M. Bugge wrote:

> i WUZ Ebedukaddedd iN dA CeeeADDul PubLik SkuuL Sistum.
>
> Stiev

Wull, Hukt on Fonix wrkt fr mee. Ie Luv too reed.

Marc
Message no. 12
From: James Pearley Kilbride <kilbrj@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Everyone(almost) who plays Shadowrun is a Munchkin!
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 1995 13:04:26 -0400
> >yeah, my point was that games specifically _for_ munchkins, and to a
lesser
> >extent, with munchkin players in it, is not a fun game. It's not
Role-playing,
> >and it's no fun. (I ruled out Magic: the addiction for the same reason)
MAGIC THE ADDICTION.. I take offence to this because Magic The gathering has
some very good RPGing lessons if you play it right. True while it doesn't
require you to actually RPG to play if you do it can be a lot of fun. Just
like a good game of poker, chess or any other game> RPGING ISN"T THE END ALL
BE ALL it is just another form of gaming that is a little more indepth.
Besides team magic requires some RPing if you do it right and theme decks
are based on an imaginary wizard who likes or knows one type of thing. So
RPing does come into Magic but it just is ALOT more subtle. Sorry to get Off
subject but that annoyed the hell out of me. See ya later all.

C/3c Kilbride
kilbrj@***.edu

"A gun they don't find is a gun they won't see until too late."
Message no. 13
From: Dustin Wood <cukoo@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Everyone(almost) who plays Shadowrun is a Munchkin!
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 1995 13:58:40 -0700
>>For that matter, in real life I need five dioptres of contact lens in
>>each eye. If cybereyes were affordable, common and known to be safe (like,
>>millions installed and few problems) I'd seriously consider them just to
>>avoid having to wear contacts or glasses.
>
>Same thing here -- I'm near-sighted (I can't read a license plate at 20
>meters...) but I'm too stubborn (or maybe stupid :) to wear glasses, let
>alone contact lenses. Now if there weren't all these rumors about eye
>surgery going bad, I might look into that. Same thing if cybereyes were
>available and safe, I'd seriously start thinking about that. And then quite
>probably including something like a low-light option (for which I have
>nearly no use because I hardly ever go anywhere I might need it, but like I
>said, I like gadgets :)
>
>>Munchkinism, IMHO, is when the PC exists only as a way to be bigger/better/
>>faster than everyone else. Most of my PCs could easily be called
"munchkin"
>>from an evaluation of their stats... yet they are downright vulnerable,
>>because they have weaknesses, blind spots, consciences.
>
>I (used to) have a player who could very easily be called a munchkin,
>looking at his character's stats. Body 12, Strength 9, that sort of thing
>(he's human, not ork or troll...). But the player plays/-ed the character
>with definite weaknesses. "Elementals? I shoot my Colt!" even though the
>player damn well knows he would do much more harm to them if he punched them
>instead.
>
>--
>Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
> He has you all fooled
> -> Unofficial Shadowrun Guru & NERPS Project Leader <-
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>
I have found that giving a character a disadvantage can often add a
lot to the role-playing aspects of the character, some examples that come to
mind are a blind decker or mage. A decker could see VR and a mage could use
astral perception, but both limit his ability to interact with the physical
world. A physical affliction or phobia, or some kind of quirky mental code
seem to work well too.
Illness, fear of water or flying, or a strict code against killing
are examples of this. Anyone have feedback?
Message no. 14
From: Helge Diernaes <ecocide@***.CBS.DK>
Subject: Re: Everyone(almost) who plays Shadowrun is a Munchkin!
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 00:13:24 +0200
On Sun, 10 Sep 1995, Dustin Wood wrote:

> I have found that giving a character a disadvantage can often add a
> lot to the role-playing aspects of the character, some examples that come to
> mind are a blind decker or mage. A decker could see VR and a mage could use
> astral perception, but both limit his ability to interact with the physical
> world. A physical affliction or phobia, or some kind of quirky mental code
> seem to work well too.
> Illness, fear of water or flying, or a strict code against killing
> are examples of this. Anyone have feedback?
>

I agree. A Shadowrunner should per definition be some kind of wierdo,
else what is the point of running the shadows instead of living warm'n
cosy in a nice corp?
I mean, any rational being who just wanted money and/or family safe from
all harm, would be a complete idiot to move out from his archology
(spellig? :-)), except on tourist maraudings.

In my experience as player and GM in SR, the surviving PC's over more
than 3 sessions had three characteristics in common:

1. Cleverness. Essentially, do not engage in fights unless on other
viable options exists. (This can differ from player to player; my
physadept elven psychopath relished mortal bladed combat because he was
addicted to humanoid blood. :-) Also he utilized an uzi with lasersight
instead of smartlink, as to letting the beam higthen his victims' terror).

2. High combat and/or high technical abilities.
Combat might be detested, but when it comes, letting the bastards have it
instead of oneself is usually the accepted axiom.

3. Lots of contacts, high and low.

With these characteristics, they would have excelled in any corp, had
their motives been gold,fame'nfamily.

Reading Gibsons books yields identical results; the main characters are
where they are and do what they do, simply because their needs were not
sated by a "normal" life - for people with their abilities.
BTW, If my perception of the main chars seem rather wild, bear with me.
We all have our perspectives :-)

Case was suicidal, even as a console cowboy, Molly is homocidal, Turner
is stubbornly independet, The Finn is, well The Finn :-).

R.N.Charette's trilogy Secrets Of Power is about the same.

Samuel Verner had his quest for his sister, which was paramount and which
his corp would not let him make, the Dodger is fiercely independent and
hungers for total symbiosis with the Matrix, Hart is initially without
scruples altogether, Ghost is fighting his own war for 1. a woman, 2. his
tribe/people, Sally is like Hart, etc.etc.

In my own campaigns, I've played a homocidal but otherwise rational white
streetsam, a psychopatic Tir Elf with 1. an severe addiction to humanoid
blood (fresh and warm, mind you), 2. a serious arrogance even considering
his Tir heritage. Currently I play an Indian Racoon Shaman, who is an
econut making Greenpeace look like contaminators.

The consequence of all this is tremendous roleplay opportunities.
If the players do have their share of phobias, philias, fanatisms, mental
disorders, etc., it leaves the game with whole new dimension of
flexibility and surprise.
Since my group started making our PC's more .. interesting, we haven't
taken one job from one lousy Johnson. Our individual quests, hunts,
whatever, let us forge ahead to accomplish that goal. Our GM might make
an adventure to that task, ofcourse, but it generally works
better if the GM just leaves the players to their own thinking/doing, and
concentrates on knowing his/her world so well that there is consistensy
in the consequenses to the PC's actions, even those the GM didn't imagine
beforehand.
Also, I do love the concepts of spinning intriques; the GM lets several,
sometimes unrelated, intriques flow around the players, and if the
players by some means fall into one of them, well, then its fun for sure.

Admittedly, a PC playing a raving maniac is bound to get it good sometime
soon, but what the heck. It has then been excessively fun playing that
char, and s/he will probably be remembered more than a boring vet.
I do not indicate that all vets are boring, I have one myself and he's
definitely not boring :-).

Besides, PC creation in SR takes no time for a player who knows what s/he
wants. The trauma resulting from losing a loved PC is in my experience
minor, as the player very well knew, that that kind of playing would kill
his/her PC of sooner or sooner. But while it last its great.

--
Regards,

Silhouette

___________
___________________________________________
___________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________________
Helge Diernaes | "The Eye that looks always to the safe side is closed
ecocide@***.cbs.dk | forever." Poul Muad'Dib, 'Dune'
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Message no. 15
From: Jason Mulligan <oujm@******.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Everyone(almost) who plays Shadowrun is a Munchkin!
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 08:54:22 +1000
On Sun, 10 Sep 1995, James Pearley Kilbride wrote:

> > >and it's no fun. (I ruled out Magic: the addiction for the same reason)
> MAGIC THE ADDICTION.. I take offence to this because Magic The gathering has
> some very good RPGing lessons if you play it right. True while it doesn't
> require you to actually RPG to play if you do it can be a lot of fun. Just

Hmm...the only lesson I've seen in Magic is that the person with the most
money is the toughest. Admittedly, you need a little skill in playing too.


--
Jason Mulligan

Email to: oujm@********.newcastle.edu.au or
manwe@*******.hna.com.au

"This is the Master-ring, the One Ring to rule them all. This is the One
Ring that he lost many ages ago, to the great weakening of his power. He
greatly desires it - but he must not get it."
-- Gandalf, "The Shadow of the Past"
Message no. 16
From: Lord Brian <peugh@********.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Everyone(almost) who plays Shadowrun is a Munchkin!
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 00:50:27 -0500
To add an entirely new twist to the game, I started my latest character
out with amnesia. There's nothing quite like running into someone who
know's you but you don't know them, both friend and foe alike. It's a
great way for the player and GM to really flush out a character, for I've
been using him for about a year and half and am still learning bits and
pieces about his past.



----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Driving the nail into my head, Brian Peugh
Memory flows like a river." peugh@********.uiuc.edu
-Queensryche, "Damaged" http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/
www/peugh/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 17
From: David Hinkley <dhinkley@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: Everyone(almost) who plays Shadowrun is a Munchkin!
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 00:39:08 -0700
On Sun, 10 Sep 1995, Dustin Wood wrote:

> I have found that giving a character a disadvantage can often add a
> lot to the role-playing aspects of the character, some examples that come to
> mind are a blind decker or mage. A decker could see VR and a mage could use
> astral perception, but both limit his ability to interact with the physical
> world. A physical affliction or phobia, or some kind of quirky mental code
> seem to work well too.
> Illness, fear of water or flying, or a strict code against killing
> are examples of this. Anyone have feedback?
>
Prior to getting involved in/with Shadowrun I played alot of
GURPS. That games character generation system includes both advantages,
and disadvantages (as well as Attrbutes and skills) adantages cost
development points and disads (as they are called) give points. The trick
in character generation is to pick out a playable set of disads that
gives the PC color (as well as extra points) yet is still playable.
Disads include among others Social Stigma, blindness, bad sight,low pain
threshold, stuttering, bad temper, berserk, bully, honesty,
Impulsiveness, delusions, and gulibility. This is not a complete list but
a sample.
After generation you are expected to play the character with the
selected traits.Some disads have quantive effects (Gullibility requires a
IQ check with a negitive modifire for the quality of the story) while
others are more nebulus (Severe delusion requires a lot of rollplaying).

I have found that depending on the combination of Disads in the
party that the system does add color and variance between otherwise
similar PCs. We (the GURPS group I played with) did find that some
combinations are extreemly disruptive (Implusiveness, Intolerance, Bully,
Bad Tempered, and Bloodlust is one set that comes quickly to mind) to the
game. Otherwise the system worked well, the characters (even within the
same class or type) are quite different. I liked the character generation
system and the game for that matter it is just alot of work for a GM to
fully flesh out a world.
As to how to add it to shadowrun, it would take a lot of
tinkering to maintain play balance if it was to be made part of character
generation. Of course the players could take up these traits just for color.

David Hinkley
Message no. 18
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Everyone(almost) who plays Shadowrun is a Munchkin!
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 10:26:53 +0200
>RPGING ISN"T THE END ALL
>BE ALL it is just another form of gaming that is a little more indepth.

I must say that since I discovered wargaming/roleplaying, most other games
seem pale in comparison. I just don't like them much anymore...

--
Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
A lunatic just barking at the moon
-> Unofficial Shadowrun Guru & NERPS Project Leader <-
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Message no. 19
From: Andre' Selmer <031SEA@******.WITS.AC.ZA>
Subject: Re: Everyone(almost) who plays Shadowrun is a Munchkin!
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 12:08:47 +0200
}>RPGING ISN"T THE END ALL
}>BE ALL it is just another form of gaming that is a little more indepth.

It might not be but its the next closest thing

}I must say that since I discovered wargaming/roleplaying, most other games
}seem pale in comparison. I just don't like them much anymore...

Try playing a game of Risk after a game of Shadowrun.. 15 minutes
later it was back in the box. I think that sums it up.


Andre'

+-----------------------------------------------------------+
|It has been said that the they who stay in the shadows have|
|no soul, no depth, no moral conviction. But how can one |
|say this when, it is they who have lost themselves in the |
|search utopia. We are the realists, we work from the |
|unseen corners of society, we do what no another has the |
|strength to do, with our cybered bodies and magic extreme |
|we prevent the corruption from spreading and destroying |
|your dreams, not through power, but bullets, sweat, tears |
|and blood. All of this we do for your sake, and few nuyen. |
+-----------------------------------------------------------+

-
|_|_
/ \ \ /~\/~~~~
| | | - \_/ + THUMP...Thump..thump = Boom ?
| | |
\___/
Message no. 20
From: Andre' Selmer <031SEA@******.WITS.AC.ZA>
Subject: Re: Everyone(almost) who plays Shadowrun is a Munchkin!
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 12:29:33 +0200
}On Sun, 10 Sep 1995, Dustin Wood wrote:
}
}> I have found that giving a character a disadvantage can often add a
}> lot to the role-playing aspects of the character, some examples that come to
}> mind are a blind decker or mage. A decker could see VR and a mage could use
}> astral perception, but both limit his ability to interact with the physical
}> world. A physical affliction or phobia, or some kind of quirky mental code
}> seem to work well too.
}> Illness, fear of water or flying, or a strict code against killing
}> are examples of this. Anyone have feedback?

Disadvantages (and advantages) add an entire new dimension to
characters. The disadvantages add that little bit of extra thrill
when your character finally manages overcome it. It must be be stated
however that (I personal opinion) that the dis/ad-vantages must
result from role playing. For example my character Limpit has a sever
phobia of vampire. First time he encounter one it beat him up, as
with the second, and the third and actually the fourth times as well.
What started as me running away from the vampire in the second time
(optional) resulted finally in a total paranoia about vampires. How
many character walk around with a carved stake in a holster that is
regularly bathed in a solution of holy water and garlic, has Aztec
sun symbols carved over it (and is trying to get it tipped with
oricalcum)... and that is not mentioning his axe.. It cost enought
nuyen to get a big enough plank of Africa Iornwood..

Apart from diverting, the point is that whether runners like it or
not they are walking very close to the edge of sanity. They have to
be consistanly alert and experience stress, that would probably give
us stomach ulcers just thinking about it... Disorders will arise.

Andre'

+-----------------------------------------------------------+
|It has been said that the they who stay in the shadows have|
|no soul, no depth, no moral conviction. But how can one |
|say this when, it is they who have lost themselves in the |
|search utopia. We are the realists, we work from the |
|unseen corners of society, we do what no another has the |
|strength to do, with our cybered bodies and magic extreme |
|we prevent the corruption from spreading and destroying |
|your dreams, not through power, but bullets, sweat, tears |
|and blood. All of this we do for your sake, and few nuyen. |
+-----------------------------------------------------------+

-
|_|_
/ \ \ /~\/~~~~
| | | - \_/ + THUMP...Thump..thump = Boom ?
| | |
\___/
Message no. 21
From: Nathan Walker <NTWALKER@******.SUNYGENESEE.CC.NY.US>
Subject: Re: Everyone(almost) who plays Shadowrun is a Munchkin!
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 10:45:58 -0400
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
>Why not? Sure, I like SR better than **&*, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't
>like to kill off 40-50 orcs and kobolds without any fear of somebody coming
>after me every once in a while :)

Yeah, but when you just have stats of numbers fighting other stats of numbers,
it really begins to lose some of its appeal. It's kind of fun, but I never
finished DOOM for the same reason. After awhile, it begins to just be the
same rooms, over and over, the same NPC's I just killed, three rounds ago,
and when we finally kill them...we are magically healed and some more suddenly
show up. It just seems that it loses most of its fun after about five minutes.
(Not to mention, ten gaming sessions...)

>You'll get flamed if you're not careful (not by me, I agree with you), but
>this _has_ come up before and not everyone was keen on being told they
>couldn't spell their native language...

I did not mean to start a flamewar, although it seems that I have, but in
defense of the people who are not from English-speaking countries, most of
the people on here with lousy grammar and such are from the U.S. I think
this is because most of the "furriners" find english easier to read if it's
written well. Not that I'm now trying to start another flamewar...you can
write however you want, as far as I am concerned... *lets out a whimper as
he looks at the burns covering his body*

>>>>> Nate, who really should get to a hospital...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
| NTWalker@******.SUNYGENESEE.CC.NY.US |
| Vax/VMS Guru (sad, but true) |
| |
| What kind of a world do we live in where a man dressed up as a bat |
| gets all my press? This town needs an enema! |
| - Joker |
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Message no. 22
From: Nathan Walker <NTWALKER@******.SUNYGENESEE.CC.NY.US>
Subject: Re: Everyone(almost) who plays Shadowrun is a Munchkin!
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 10:56:35 -0400
>Same thing here -- I'm near-sighted (I can't read a license plate at 20
>meters...) but I'm too stubborn (or maybe stupid :) to wear glasses, let
>alone contact lenses. Now if there weren't all these rumors about eye
>surgery going bad, I might look into that. Same thing if cybereyes were
>available and safe, I'd seriously start thinking about that. And then quite
>probably including something like a low-light option (for which I have
>nearly no use because I hardly ever go anywhere I might need it, but like I
>said, I like gadgets :)

Hmmmm....well, FYI, my mother has had that eye-laser-surgery done to her
eyes and she is doing fine. It has been a year and a half since she had it
done, and she has had twenty-twenty vision since. Although she did say
something about having it done in Florida, since they have the best doctors.

*looks around for the message thread and doesn't see it*

But, bringing this back to Shadowrun...I personally would not want any type
of surgery done to my eyes. I kind of like the current eyes I have, and they
have served me well through the years. OTOH, I think maybe some of those
slicer-dicer hand razors would be kind of cool...Kind of a Wolverine/X-Men
type of thing. :)

But my eyes, no. Of course, if this was 2050, I would probably be an Elf
Shaman, which would mean I would already have low-light vision, and would
need the essence :)

>>>>>> Nate, the Elven Coyote shaman.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
| NTWalker@******.SUNYGENESEE.CC.NY.US |
| Vax/VMS Guru (sad, but true) |
| |
| What kind of a world do we live in where a man dressed up as a bat |
| gets all my press? This town needs an enema! |
| - Joker |
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Message no. 23
From: Nathan Walker <NTWALKER@******.SUNYGENESEE.CC.NY.US>
Subject: Re: Everyone(almost) who plays Shadowrun is a Munchkin!
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 11:00:53 -0400
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
>On Sun, 10 Sep 1995, Stephen M. Bugge wrote:
>
>> i WUZ Ebedukaddedd iN dA CeeeADDul PubLik SkuuL Sistum.
>>
>> Stiev
>
> Wull, Hukt on Fonix wrkt fr mee. Ie Luv too reed.

My father actually prints T-shirts with that on it. :)

Hukt on foniX wErked fr meE.

>>>>>> Nate
------------------------------------------------------------------------
| NTWalker@******.SUNYGENESEE.CC.NY.US |
| Vax/VMS Guru (sad, but true) |
| |
| What kind of a world do we live in where a man dressed up as a bat |
| gets all my press? This town needs an enema! |
| - Joker |
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Message no. 24
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Everyone(almost) who plays Shadowrun is a Munchkin!
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 13:38:30 -0400
On Mon, 11 Sep 1995, Nathan Walker wrote:

> My father actually prints T-shirts with that on it. :)
>
> Hukt on foniX wErked fr meE.

I know...I have one. :)

Marc
Message no. 25
From: James Pearley Kilbride <kilbrj@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Everyone(almost) who plays Shadowrun is a Munchkin!
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 14:47:05 -0400
On Sep 11, 10:26am, Gurth wrote:
> Subject: Re: Everyone(almost) who plays Shadowrun is a Munchkin!
> >RPGING ISN"T THE END ALL
> >BE ALL it is just another form of gaming that is a little more indepth.
>
> I must say that since I discovered wargaming/roleplaying, most other games
> seem pale in comparison. I just don't like them much anymore...
>
Then you don't play the complicated enough games. They aren't as difficult
to learn but some of the easiest games are some of the trickiest to master.
Take chess. I love a good game of chess and even though it is simple it is
so tough against a good player. It becomes so simple that it is hard. While
they don't have the fleshing that RPG do. Or that wargames do they can be
just as difficult and fun against an expeirienced player.

Back on track though: Is there a skill Game Designer or Game R&D? would it be
concentration, a general or a specialization skill? What about Game Player?
These skills, which they are in real life, or just ways of playing the
character? Thought: A street samuri that play's RPG's on saturday to get rid
of the boredom of the runs ;)
Message no. 26
From: James Pearley Kilbride <kilbrj@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Everyone(almost) who plays Shadowrun is a Munchkin!
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 14:49:26 -0400
On Sep 11, 12:08pm, Andre' Selmer wrote:
> Subject: Re: Everyone(almost) who plays Shadowrun is a Munchkin!
> }>RPGING ISN"T THE END ALL
> }>BE ALL it is just another form of gaming that is a little more indepth.
>
> It might not be but its the next closest thing
>
> }I must say that since I discovered wargaming/roleplaying, most other games
> }seem pale in comparison. I just don't like them much anymore...
>
> Try playing a game of Risk after a game of Shadowrun.. 15 minutes
> later it was back in the box. I think that sums it up.
>
>
> Andre'
Sorry I would have to disagree. Though I do remember some times when I was
wishing I could hire a shadowrunner during one of my risk games ;)


see ya,
c/3c Kilbride
Message no. 27
From: Andre' Selmer <031SEA@******.WITS.AC.ZA>
Subject: Re: Everyone(almost) who plays Shadowrun is a Munchkin!
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 10:21:10 +0200
}On Sep 11, 12:08pm, Andre' Selmer wrote:
}> Subject: Re: Everyone(almost) who plays Shadowrun is a Munchkin!
}> }>RPGING ISN"T THE END ALL
}> }>BE ALL it is just another form of gaming that is a little more indepth.
}>
}> It might not be but its the next closest thing
}>
}> }I must say that since I discovered wargaming/roleplaying, most other games
}> }seem pale in comparison. I just don't like them much anymore...
}>
}> Try playing a game of Risk after a game of Shadowrun.. 15 minutes
}> later it was back in the box. I think that sums it up.
}>
}>
}> Andre'
}Sorry I would have to disagree. Though I do remember some times when I was
}wishing I could hire a shadowrunner during one of my risk games ;)

In a roundabout way you make my point. While playing said game of
Risk, someone made a comment about the feather dragon from South
America was going to ... The game stopped and a discussion of who
was actually in control of various regions, and what their motives
where started. ;-)

Andre'

+-----------------------------------------------------------+
|It has been said that the they who stay in the shadows have|
|no soul, no depth, no moral conviction. But how can one |
|say this when, it is they who have lost themselves in the |
|search utopia. We are the realists, we work from the |
|unseen corners of society, we do what no another has the |
|strength to do, with our cybered bodies and magic extreme |
|we prevent the corruption from spreading and destroying |
|your dreams, not through power, but bullets, sweat, tears |
|and blood. All of this we do for your sake, and few nuyen. |
+-----------------------------------------------------------+

-
|_|_
/ \ \ /~\/~~~~
| | | - \_/ + THUMP...Thump..thump = Boom ?
| | |
\___/
Message no. 28
From: Mark Steedman <RSMS@******.EEE.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Everyone(almost) who plays Shadowrun is a Munchkin!
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 09:37:31 GMT
James Pearley Kilbride writes
>
> Back on track though: Is there a skill Game Designer or Game R&D? would it be
> concentration, a general or a specialization skill? What about Game Player?
> These skills, which they are in real life, or just ways of playing the
> character? Thought: A street samuri that play's RPG's on saturday to get rid
> of the boredom of the runs ;)
>
special skill ?????

would solve the problem.

Mark
Message no. 29
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Everyone(almost) who plays Shadowrun is a Munchkin!
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 10:50:21 +0200
[**&*-like games]
>After awhile, it begins to just be the
>same rooms, over and over, the same NPC's I just killed, three rounds ago,
>and when we finally kill them...we are magically healed and some more suddenly
>show up. It just seems that it loses most of its fun after about five minutes.
>(Not to mention, ten gaming sessions...)

Of course it loses appeal after a while, it's just that I (would) like a
little diversion from "real" roleplaying every now and then. I certainly
wouldn't want to do that one or two nights a week for ten weeks in a row (at
least, not anymore).

>>not everyone was keen on being told they
>>couldn't spell their native language...
>
>[snip] most of
>the people on here with lousy grammar and such are from the U.S.

Read between the lines... :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
And a sense of adventure
-> Unofficial Shadowrun Guru & NERPS Project Leader <-
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Message no. 30
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Everyone(almost) who plays Shadowrun is a Munchkin!
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 10:50:30 +0200
>> I must say that since I discovered wargaming/roleplaying, most other games
>> seem pale in comparison. I just don't like them much anymore...
>>
>Then you don't play the complicated enough games.

Probably not, but when everyone you know (apart from a few RPers) isn't used
to anything more complicated than Monopoly... Hell, they almost get scared
and tell me to go away when I even try to say the word "roleplaying game" :)

>Back on track though: Is there a skill Game Designer or Game R&D? would it be
>concentration, a general or a specialization skill? What about Game Player?

All Special Skills, IMHO.

> These skills, which they are in real life, or just ways of playing the
>character? Thought: A street samuri that play's RPG's on saturday to get rid
>of the boredom of the runs ;)

I made a character for a soon-too-be-started PBEM who has a skill called
Roleplaying. Beats me what exactly he'll use it for, but I like the idea :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
And a sense of adventure
-> Unofficial Shadowrun Guru & NERPS Project Leader <-
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Message no. 31
From: Kelly Martin <kelly@*******.BLOOMINGTON.IN.US>
Subject: Re: Everyone(almost) who plays Shadowrun is a Munchkin!
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 21:40:40 EST5
"Selmer" == Selmer <Andre> writes:

Selmer> In a roundabout way you make my point. While playing said
Selmer> game of Risk, someone made a comment about the feather dragon
Selmer> from South America was going to ... The game stopped and a
Selmer> discussion of who was actually in control of various regions,
Selmer> and what their motives where started. ;-)

hm. this brings to mind perhaps one of the most perverse ideas to
date: a crossover between Supremacy (basically Risk on steroids) and
Shadowrun.

k.
--
kelly martin <kelly@*******.bloomington.in.us>

When Elvis Presley died in 1977, there were 37 Elvis impersonators in the
world. Today there are 48,000. If the current trend continues, by the year
2010, one of every three people in the world will be an Elvis impersonator.
-- Michael Legault
Message no. 32
From: Kelly Martin <kelly@*******.BLOOMINGTON.IN.US>
Subject: Re: Everyone(almost) who plays Shadowrun is a Munchkin!
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 21:50:42 EST5
"Gurth" == Gurth <gurth@******.NL> writes:

>> Back on track though: Is there a skill Game Designer or Game R&D?
>> would it be concentration, a general or a specialization skill?
>> What about Game Player?

Gurth> All Special Skills, IMHO.

the basic skill is "Gaming", with concentrations Cards, RPG, Abstract,
and Chance. specializations are a specific game (i.e. poker,
GURPS<tm>, chess, and craps, respectively). for each skill there is
an associated "design/operate" skill (sort of like B/R for tech
skills).

feel free to add your own concentrations as appropriate.

physical games (basketball, water polo, shuffleboard) would be better
described as concentrations of the athletics skill.

k. (n.b. this post contains an indefinite number of implied smilies)


--
kelly martin <kelly@*******.bloomington.in.us>

There are members of any legislative body who can be differentiated
from streetlights only because their noses don't light up.
-- Rep. Barney Frank (D-MA)
Message no. 33
From: James Pearley Kilbride <kilbrj@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Everyone(almost) who plays Shadowrun is a Munchkin!
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 00:00:57 -0400
On Sep 12, 9:40pm, Kelly Martin wrote:
> Subject: Re: Everyone(almost) who plays Shadowrun is a Munchkin!
> "Selmer" == Selmer <Andre> writes:
>
> Selmer> In a roundabout way you make my point. While playing said
> Selmer> game of Risk, someone made a comment about the feather dragon
> Selmer> from South America was going to ... The game stopped and a
> Selmer> discussion of who was actually in control of various regions,
> Selmer> and what their motives where started. ;-)
>
> hm. this brings to mind perhaps one of the most perverse ideas to
> date: a crossover between Supremacy (basically Risk on steroids) and
> Shadowrun.
>
> k.
> --
> kelly martin
<kelly@*******.bloomington.in.us>
>
> When Elvis Presley died in 1977, there were 37 Elvis impersonators in the
> world. Today there are 48,000. If the current trend continues, by the
year
> 2010, one of every three people in the world will be an Elvis
impersonator.
> -- Michael Legault
>-- End of excerpt from Kelly Martin

I LIKE this idea....
Message no. 34
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Everyone(almost) who plays Shadowrun is a Munchkin!
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 14:44:34 +0200
> I agree totally. You can have a character that's totally
> optimized for combat/magic/decking/whatever. Does that make that
> character a munchkin character? No. It's the *player* I'm concerned
> with. When I as a GM say, "tell me about your character," and the first
> thing out of the player's mouth is, "Well, he has an initiative score of
> 17+4D6!" or "She has a strength of 12 and a quickness of 10," then
odds
> are good that the player is thinking in munchkin mode.

Yep, good stats dont mean munchkin - not nececarily. You know you got
a munchkin player when you play 20 questins with him and you get answers
like "Well he's a nice guy, about 18 and decided to become a runner
because thats what he always dreamt of being when he grew up." or like
"My parents were runners and I grew up with them so I decide to
be a runner." *sigh*

> When stats make up the character, the point behind role-playing
> is seriously diminished. I will allow characters in my campaign that
> others would consider munchkinous, but I mandate that they be
> *characters* rather than conglomerations of numbers that the player rolls
> without thought.
> So before you go saying "we're all munchkins at heart" think
> about what it means to be a munchkin.

A munchkin is simply a player who doesnt want to roleplay. A munchkin
sees his character as an interface to a wargame. Players that design
powerfull characters are simply powergamers.

--
GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++$S++L++$>++++ L++>+++ E--- N+ h*(+)
W(+)(---) M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) f+ r- n!(-) y?

Moderator of alt.c00ld00z (coolness in general)
Message no. 35
From: Kelly Martin <kelly@*******.BLOOMINGTON.IN.US>
Subject: Re: Everyone(almost) who plays Shadowrun is a Munchkin!
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 18:32:10 EST5
"Jani" == Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE> writes:

Jani> Yep, good stats dont mean munchkin - not nececarily. You know
Jani> you got a munchkin player when you play 20 questins with him and
Jani> you get answers like "Well he's a nice guy, about 18 and decided
Jani> to become a runner because thats what he always dreamt of being
Jani> when he grew up." or like "My parents were runners and I grew up
Jani> with them so I decide to be a runner." *sigh*

oh, yeah. "my parents were runners so i decided to be too." real
reasonable. if _my_ parents had been shadowrunners, and by some weird
stroke of luck i actually managed to grow up with them, i would
probably want to be any _but_ a runner. :)

there are probably some borderline psychotics who dream of being
shadowrunners, but i would imagine such beings are rare indeed.

the GM should probably help players build a background, especially
when the player is new to the game. imo, it's as much the GM's fault
as the player's when a character is created with no or minimal
background.

k.
--
kelly martin <kelly@*******.bloomington.in.us>

I could tell by his slurred speech, the heavy glaze over his eyes,
and his inability to stand straight that he was under the influence
of a powerful narcotic. That, or he was a graduate student.
Message no. 36
From: Dustin Wood <cukoo@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Everyone(almost) who plays Shadowrun is a Munchkin!
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 19:47:28 -0700
>the GM should probably help players build a background, especially
>when the player is new to the game. imo, it's as much the GM's fault
>as the player's when a character is created with no or minimal
>background.

Good call, the GM is kind of a coach in some ways (among the plethora of
other responsibilities) even to experienced players, he may need to set the
tone for his games.

That is part of the reason I don't allow anyone to start with numbers or
priorities until they've gone through 20 questions and I feel we've resolved
any weak links.
Message no. 37
From: Bryce Shonka <logan@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Everyone(almost) who plays Shadowrun is a Munchkin!
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 22:41:21 -0700
I concur. I've often wondered how a new player or character was supposed
to to just join an established shadowrun team without some kind of
connecting plot. It just doesn't work-
"Uh, you bump into a decker named Chip and you realize that you
share the same fixer..."
For realistic mergings the story just has to be deeper than that,
at the very least to explain why the established team would trust this
new guy on their backs in a firefight. The GM should definately be
involved in this process, IMHO.

Late!
Message no. 38
From: Andre' Selmer <031SEA@******.WITS.AC.ZA>
Subject: Re: Everyone(almost) who plays Shadowrun is a Munchkin!
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 08:44:58 +0200
}the GM should probably help players build a background, especially
}when the player is new to the game. imo, it's as much the GM's fault
}as the player's when a character is created with no or minimal
}background.

The GM should set the baseline for character history creation. ie
if the party already has 3 active enviromentalists, he / she / it
could suggest that prehaps 4 in the group is 1 to many. (Unless he /
she / it is running an eco-terrorist shadow campaign.). What I
ususally do when generating a new character, is play the character
for two or three games before generating the history, if nothing else
it allows me time to work out some of the kinks in the character.
Things like contacts etc are set though during the actual character
generation and the history end usually approxmately a few days before
the character meets the group.
Andre'

+-----------------------------------------------------------+
|It has been said that the they who stay in the shadows have|
|no soul, no depth, no moral conviction. But how can one |
|say this when, it is they who have lost themselves in the |
|search utopia. We are the realists, we work from the |
|unseen corners of society, we do what no another has the |
|strength to do, with our cybered bodies and magic extreme |
|we prevent the corruption from spreading and destroying |
|your dreams, not through power, but bullets, sweat, tears |
|and blood. All of this we do for your sake, and few nuyen. |
+-----------------------------------------------------------+

-
|_|_
/ \ \ /~\/~~~~
| | | - \_/ + THUMP...Thump..thump = Boom ?
| | |
\___/
Message no. 39
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Everyone(almost) who plays Shadowrun is a Munchkin!
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 11:05:08 +0200
>That is part of the reason I don't allow anyone to start with numbers or
>priorities until they've gone through 20 questions and I feel we've resolved
>any weak links.

I don't really like those 20 questions FASA put in SR2... I always find
myself giving answers along the lines of "In Bellevue," "20 June
2028," "A
photo of his parents" and so on without expanding on them. I found the best
way (for me) to do these things is to simply start writing a description
without referring to those questions.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
And a sense of adventure
-> Unofficial Shadowrun Guru & NERPS Project Leader <-
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Message no. 40
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Everyone(almost) who plays Shadowrun is a Munchkin!
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 11:05:16 +0200
>I concur. I've often wondered how a new player or character was supposed
>to to just join an established shadowrun team without some kind of
>connecting plot. It just doesn't work-

I think probably the best way to introduce new players to a team is to
design an adventure where they start as separate groups but eventually have
to come together to see the whole thing through.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
And a sense of adventure
-> Unofficial Shadowrun Guru & NERPS Project Leader <-
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE Y PGP-
t(+) 5 X R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(--) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 41
From: Andre' Selmer <031SEA@******.WITS.AC.ZA>
Subject: Re: Everyone(almost) who plays Shadowrun is a Munchkin!
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 11:09:18 +0200
}I concur. I've often wondered how a new player or character was supposed
}to to just join an established shadowrun team without some kind of
}connecting plot. It just doesn't work-

No it doesn't. Generally when a new character joins a team that
character would usually be treated with a great deal of suspicion,
especially if the team has any unfriendly foes. In a recent game a
new character joined our team. Within the first five minutes of
meeting up he was almost killed. He snuck up on my dwarf (who also
hates mages using invisiblilty) and made some comment. Bad move, one
spin kick later he sat on Moderately physically wounded. (All the way
from 5L Stun). When he woke and tried to use magic he found a Force 6
Fire-elemental watching him.. The way that we finally intergrated the
character into our team was very simple. We took him a single run, a
once off, against the Mafia. For some peculiar reason he decided that
staying with us was a lot better than wondering the streets alone,
especially seeing as the Mafia knew who he was....<chuckle>

} "Uh, you bump into a decker named Chip and you realize that you
}share the same fixer..."

Well we used our contacts to make contact with our new 'team'
member. The remaining team decided that we required more magical
support.

} For realistic mergings the story just has to be deeper than that,
}at the very least to explain why the established team would trust this
}new guy on their backs in a firefight. The GM should definately be
}involved in this process, IMHO.

You don't have to trust your team mates, it just helps. Any way a
ritual sample does a lot to ensure loyalty. Apart from the coeherive
measures to prevent you being blow away from behind. The reason
usually why an established team wants a new member is because a
previous character had died. With a well balenced team, this creates
a 'hole' as certain characters naturally took and played certain
roles in the team. The new characters normally don't entirely fill
this vacency with the result that the team roles have to shift in
order to a) accomodate the style of the individual joining as well as
cover as many bases as possible. Starting characters wouldn't be
trusted at all, apart from the fact that unless they were members of
a previous team, they have no concept of how the team as such works
until after several runs, add to this the fact that the probable
enthusiasm of the new member might cramp the style of the more
established members. Until the new team member shows his colours,
what he is made of and an ability to work within the team structure
he / she / it won't be trusted. Heck in our campagin, the team as
such has been running together for about 5 years. The characters
still don't know the other characters true names, each of the
characters has several hideouts, backup of their own, as well as the
teams, contacts no-one else knows of (although this is diminshing
game by game).

Right I've typed myself out for now. So I'll agree and say team
intergration is difficult, but it is usually easier if the GM just
gives the settings, and the players the actual interaction in this
particular case. After all it is not up the the GM to state what the
characters think (unless under a mind control spell), that is the
players job (and fun)

Andre'

+-----------------------------------------------------------+
|It has been said that the they who stay in the shadows have|
|no soul, no depth, no moral conviction. But how can one |
|say this when, it is they who have lost themselves in the |
|search utopia. We are the realists, we work from the |
|unseen corners of society, we do what no another has the |
|strength to do, with our cybered bodies and magic extreme |
|we prevent the corruption from spreading and destroying |
|your dreams, not through power, but bullets, sweat, tears |
|and blood. All of this we do for your sake, and few nuyen. |
+-----------------------------------------------------------+

-
|_|_
/ \ \ /~\/~~~~
| | | - \_/ + THUMP...Thump..thump = Boom ?
| | |
\___/
Message no. 42
From: Dustin Wood <cukoo@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Everyone(almost) who plays Shadowrun is a Munchkin!
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 10:30:59 -0700
>I concur. I've often wondered how a new player or character was supposed
>to to just join an established shadowrun team without some kind of
>connecting plot. It just doesn't work-
> "Uh, you bump into a decker named Chip and you realize that you
>share the same fixer..."
> For realistic mergings the story just has to be deeper than that,
>at the very least to explain why the established team would trust this
>new guy on their backs in a firefight. The GM should definately be
>involved in this process, IMHO.
>
A smooth network of fixers contacting each other to gather the required
runners is usually the rational I use to bring a team together. Each has
built a reputation for hiring only professional, trustworthy runners. Thus
the team can get a call, "It's your fixer, Johnson wants an addition to the
team, they'll be contacting you". The character to be added gets a call,
"Hey, got a job for you, this team needs matrix support." etc. Then the
characters hook up together, trusting that their fixers would only have
hired them on with professionals and competents.
Message no. 43
From: Dustin Wood <cukoo@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Everyone(almost) who plays Shadowrun is a Munchkin!
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 10:47:17 -0700
>I don't really like those 20 questions FASA put in SR2... I always find
>myself giving answers along the lines of "In Bellevue," "20 June
2028," "A
>photo of his parents" and so on without expanding on them. I found the best
>way (for me) to do these things is to simply start writing a description
>without referring to those questions.

Whatever works, my players are pretty inexperienced, and more often than not
they need a knudge in the right direction, expecially when they're designing
a character. Once they have a strong concept and design, the role-playing
seems to come to them easy, its giving them some role-playing leverage that
they sometimes have a hard time with.
Message no. 44
From: "Gary L. Kelley" <gkelley@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Everyone(almost) who plays Shadowrun is a Munchkin!
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 01:14:13 -0500
>A smooth network of fixers contacting each other to gather the required
>runners is usually the rational I use to bring a team together. Each has
>built a reputation for hiring only professional, trustworthy runners. Thus
>the team can get a call, "It's your fixer, Johnson wants an addition to the
>team, they'll be contacting you". The character to be added gets a call,
>"Hey, got a job for you, this team needs matrix support." etc. Then the
>characters hook up together, trusting that their fixers would only have
>hired them on with professionals and competents.
>
>

This is a good way to do it. Personally my team has a contact (more of a
buddy) who is a retired shadow runner who still knows people he can trust to
hook his friends up with pro. runners when we need to add a new player for
some reason. whether its just a one or to two run local NPC who they may run
with on several diff. runs where they may need back up, or a permanent add
on (new player).
We`ve found this to work most of the time (not always though:)
K.R.K.

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