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Message no. 1
From: Neil Clark neil.clark@**********.com
Subject: exchange rates, and APDS...pronounced APP-ee-das ? : )
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:22:38 -0500
does anyone have a good, founded idea of what the exchange rates are
between nowaday US dollars and 205x's ¥s?

personally, I've been estimating about 2¥ = $1.

that makes it...pistol about $500, but I don't own a gun, so although that
does sound somewhat alright, I really don't know how much a nice pistol goes
for today.

that would make a katana $500, and I have a friend in martial arts who
says that's a hell of a lot for a sword (~$200), but maybe because it's made
for combat, and not for show as most swords are today? I imagine the smiths
of today compromise a lot of quality for shininess, and cheapness of
production.

*****

and another thing, what *is* APDS? how is the bullet designed? it is
some sort of case-shedding contraption? my friend thinks they would be
comprised of depleted uranium, but I'm not so sure that's the case. I
personally have no clue how physically an APDS is constructed, any ideas?



--Neil
[ neil.clark@**********.com ]
AIM: CrythalX
SIN: 29384733

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e->+++++ h! !r@>++ y-@
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Message no. 2
From: Robert Watkins robert.watkins@******.com
Subject: exchange rates, and APDS...pronounced APP-ee-das ? : )
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 10:38:42 +1000
> and another thing, what *is* APDS? how is the bullet designed? it is
> some sort of case-shedding contraption? my friend thinks they would be
> comprised of depleted uranium, but I'm not so sure that's the case. I
> personally have no clue how physically an APDS is constructed, any ideas?

It is indeed a "some sort of case-shedding contraption".

In an APDS bullet, you have a hard, dense core (the 'armour piercing'
portion), surrounded by a jacket that will come off when fired (the
'discarding sabot' portion). On being fired, the sabot will strip away from
the dense core. This causes the bullet to become more stable or something,
or possibly reduces the friction... I'm not exactly up on ammo design.

Modern APDS rounds are used in tank ammo, and there the core is, in fact,
depleted uranium. One of the qualities of depleted uranium is that when you
slam a bullet made out of it into a tank, it will combust, transferring a
lot more energy into the tank than a lead bullet (which would bounce off in
many cases). That's why tanks like it. However, it's bloody expensive, and
DU wouldn't be so effective against a "soft" target like someone in a full
suit of armour. So, no, APDS rounds for guns do not use DU. I think they use
tungsten, but don't quote me.

--
Duct tape is like the Force: There's a Light side, a Dark side, and it
binds the Universe together.
Robert Watkins -- robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 3
From: GRANITE granite@**.net
Subject: exchange rates, and APDS...pronounced APP-ee-das ? : )
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 17:41:44 -0700
> does anyone have a good, founded idea of what the exchange rates are
> between nowaday US dollars and 205x's ¥s?

I usually go for about a 1 to 1 exchange..

>..... I really don't know how much a nice pistol goes
> for today.

Pistols go [good ones] from around $250 to $500..and then you get
into the specialty weapons..but that is a whole different thing...

>......I imagine the smiths
> of today compromise a lot of quality for shininess, and cheapness of
> production.

For a good quality combat ready sword from $275 to $350..Check out
the Museum Replicas Unlilmited site for a better idea.. I don't have
a catalog handy or I would post their addy..

--------------------------------GRANITE
"Rock Steady"
==============================================Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The
Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer
==============================================Understanding is a three edged sword. - Kosh
What is best in life?
To Crush Your Enemies,
See Them Driven Before You,
And To Hear The Lamentation Of Their Women. -Conan
I Am The LAW! -JD
Jamais Arriere
Message no. 4
From: Kyoto the Angel dann1@********.erols.com
Subject: exchange rates, and APDS...pronounced APP-ee-das ? : )
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:52:31 -0500
-----Original Message-----
From: Neil Clark <neil.clark@**********.com>
To: Jackpoint <shadowrn@*********.org>
Date: Monday, February 22, 1999 7:16 PM
Subject: exchange rates, and APDS...pronounced APP-ee-das ? : )


> does anyone have a good, founded idea of what the exchange rates are
>between nowaday US dollars and 205x's ¥s?
>
> personally, I've been estimating about 2¥ = $1.
>
> that makes it...pistol about $500, but I don't own a gun, so although
that
>does sound somewhat alright, I really don't know how much a nice pistol
goes
>for today.
>
> that would make a katana $500, and I have a friend in martial arts who
>says that's a hell of a lot for a sword (~$200), but maybe because it's
made
>for combat, and not for show as most swords are today? I imagine the
smiths
>of today compromise a lot of quality for shininess, and cheapness of
>production.
>

Don't know about the gun part, but he's right about 500 being quite a bit
for a katana nowadays. But, as you said, in the SR future, they're now
being built for combat, and hence would be using a lot sturdier metal, that
may not be as pretty, would have sharper edges, and probably be taken a lot
more seriously than they are nowadays. Hell, you can find swords nowadays
that aren't even hand-made, I doubt this happens much in SR, except if
technology happens to have found a way to make things better than they would
be by hand.


>*****
>
> and another thing, what *is* APDS? how is the bullet designed? it is
>some sort of case-shedding contraption? my friend thinks they would be
>comprised of depleted uranium, but I'm not so sure that's the case. I
>personally have no clue how physically an APDS is constructed, any ideas?
>
IIRC, and I'm still not sure about this one, the outer part of the shell is
softer lead than it is normally in a bullet, and the inside is made of some
sort of extremely hard metal, and fashioned to a point, thus allowing the
bullet, when it hit, to impact the armor in a normal way, and allow the hard
point on the inside to pierce the armor. I'm not positive about any of this
though, of course, the only purpose of the soft outer shell is to allow for
friction, and aerodynamics, as I'm sure the actual piercing bullet wouldn't
fly too well.

If I'm wrong, someone correct me, and tell me what I am talking about, as
I'm sure I've heard of this before, unless I inadvertantly mixed two
different types of bullets

Kyoto the Angel
AIM: AngelKyoto
ICQ: 29713335
Message no. 5
From: Wyrmy elfman@******.com
Subject: exchange rates, and APDS...pronounced APP-ee-das ? : )
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:26:44 -0600
<Snip Kyotos stuff about Katanas>
I own a Katana. It was japanese made(I think), And is very good quality.
And what you said about being taken seriously, when I'm outside
practicing with my sword, people walking by tend to either stop nad
admire the blade(mostly gang members) or start to walk faster.So I guess
they do take this chunk of 440 stainless steel more seriously than I
would have thought.
>


> >*****
<Snip Kyoto's description of Apds ammo>
I always thought that it was like a steel dart, incased in a loose
plastic sheathing, something like this:


__________
>--------------
__________

And when it fired, the plastic sabot fell off from the air velocity.
--
-W in the light
----------------------------------------------------------
Wyrmy: Wyrm druid, Scholar, Pokemon trainer extroidenaire.
Famous Quote: "Pikachu? What Pikachu?" BZRAK "Oh,(cough), THAT
Pikachu!"
Message no. 6
From: JonSzeto@***.com JonSzeto@***.com
Subject: exchange rates, and APDS...pronounced APP-ee-das ? : )
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 23:05:19 EST
Neil Clark <neil.clark@**********.com> wrote,

> does anyone have a good, founded idea of what the exchange rates are
> between nowaday US dollars and 205x's ¥s?

> personally, I've been estimating about 2¥ = $1.

FWIW, I've worked under the assumption that 1 nuyen has *approximately* the
same buying power in 2060 as $1 USD has in 1999. I should caveat this by
saying that this is NOT an "official" ruling, just a personal rule of thumb.
(The
"official" guidance we freelancers get from the DLOH is "use whatever
sounds
right.") As always, YMMV.

> and another thing, what *is* APDS? how is the bullet designed? it is
> some sort of case-shedding contraption? my friend thinks they would be
> comprised of depleted uranium, but I'm not so sure that's the case. I
> personally have no clue how physically an APDS is constructed, any ideas?

As others have noted, APDS consists of a hardened metal core, surrounded by
a softer jacket (for small arms this would probably be some type of plastic).
When the bullet clears the muzzle of the gun, the jacket falls away (usually
by means of air resistance) while the core travels onward. This gives the
projectile a smaller cross-section, which means (1) reduced energy loss from
air drag and (2) a more concentrated energy transfer at the point of impact.

The metal core is usually made out of either tungsten or depleted uranium
(the waste product left over after purifying raw uranium to make reactor-
grade or weapons-grade fuel, and composed 99.xxx% of U-238). Up until a few
years ago, APDS tank rounds were made of DU, but most militaries have been
switching over to tungsten, partly because tungsten costs less, and partly
because tungsten is easier to machine. (DU is also pyrophoric, which means it
gets real
hot and creates sparks when it strikes metal, but how much that special effect
adds to the round's combat effectiveness is subject to some debate.)

Now that Paul Adam is back on the list, he can probably cover whatever holes
I may have overlooked.

-- Jon
Message no. 7
From: Bob Tockley zzdeden@*******.com.au
Subject: exchange rates, and APDS...pronounced APP-ee-das ? : )
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 14:16:43 +1000
>Now that Paul Adam is back on the list, he can probably cover whatever holes
>I may have overlooked.

Gee. I sure hope that wasn't a deliberate bad pun...

As for the pronunciation. I've always heard it being referred to as
A-P-D-S. As it's spelt... APP-ee-das is just weird...


(>) ARKHAM
"Edible underwear? What the hell're you talking about? If they made
edible underwear it'd have to have a flavour wouldn't it? Underwear
flavour - I don't think so... what...? Oh... oh... I see... watermelon, eh?"
Message no. 8
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: exchange rates, and APDS...pronounced APP-ee-das ? : )
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 00:08:33 -0600
On Mon, 22 Feb 1999 23:05:19 EST JonSzeto@***.com writes:
>Neil Clark <neil.clark@**********.com> wrote,
>> does anyone have a good, founded idea of what the exchange rates are
>> between nowaday US dollars and 205x's ¥s?
>>
>> personally, I've been estimating about 2¥ = $1.

>FWIW, I've worked under the assumption that 1 nuyen has *approximately*
the
>same buying power in 2060 as $1 USD has in 1999. I should caveat this by
>saying that this is NOT an "official" ruling, just a personal rule of
thumb.
>(The
>"official" guidance we freelancers get from the DLOH is "use whatever
sounds
>right.") As always, YMMV.

Actually, I remember from somewhere that this is official or
quasi-official. I don't recall from where, though... Gurth? You know
everything ... any idea?

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"You, you're like a spoonful of whoopass." --Grace
"A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire (2nd
Edition)

___________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 9
From: Beal, Nathan nathan.beal@***.ac.uk
Subject: exchange rates, and APDS...pronounced APP-ee-das ? : )
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 09:41:45 -0000
> For a good quality combat ready sword from $275 to $350..Check out
> the Museum Replicas Unlilmited site for a better idea.. I don't have
> a catalog handy or I would post their addy..
>
Are you sure, the last sword I bought cost me £75 and that is definitely
combat ready (well I suppose it could do with sharpening). I dunno what the
£ to $ conversion is at the moment, but I am paying 17.5% VAT (sales tax)
included in that price. Granted it isn't the nicest sword I have ever
owned.

> ==============================================> Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To
Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
> The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
> And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
> Because They Pissed Me Off.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer
Message no. 10
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: exchange rates, and APDS...pronounced APP-ee-das ? : )
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 11:44:09 +0100
According to JonSzeto@***.com, at 23:05 on 22 Feb 99, the word on
the street was...

> > does anyone have a good, founded idea of what the exchange rates are
> > between nowaday US dollars and 205x's ¥s?
>
> > personally, I've been estimating about 2¥ = $1.
>
> FWIW, I've worked under the assumption that 1 nuyen has *approximately* the
> same buying power in 2060 as $1 USD has in 1999. I should caveat this by
> saying that this is NOT an "official" ruling, just a personal rule of
thumb.
> (The
> "official" guidance we freelancers get from the DLOH is "use whatever
sounds
> right.") As always, YMMV.

The former DLOH's opinion seems to be the same as Jon's, as in the GM's
book from the Denver boxed set it says to equate US$1 (of 1994) with 1
nuyen. IOW, to figure out prices for stuff not listed in any SR book, the
easiest way is to convert the item's price in your local currency to US
dollars and use that.

> > and another thing, what *is* APDS? how is the bullet designed? it is
> > some sort of case-shedding contraption? my friend thinks they would be
> > comprised of depleted uranium, but I'm not so sure that's the case. I
> > personally have no clue how physically an APDS is constructed, any ideas?
>
> As others have noted, APDS consists of a hardened metal core, surrounded by
> a softer jacket (for small arms this would probably be some type of plastic).
> When the bullet clears the muzzle of the gun, the jacket falls away (usually
> by means of air resistance)

After which it should be noted that the picture of APDS rounds in the
Street Samurai Catalog is a bit... unrealistic. The sabots (the packing
pieces around the bullet) are streamlined in the artwork there, which is
exactly what they shouldn't be if they're to fall off ASAP when the bullet
leaves the weapon's barrel :)

If you can find a picture of modern APFSDS tank ammunition, you'll get a
good idea of what APDS rounds in SR are like. Especially one of those high-
speed photos of such a round after it's fired make it all very clear.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
There's no such things as a "brown alert," sir.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 11
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: exchange rates, and APDS...pronounced APP-ee-das ? : )
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 11:44:09 +0100
According to Kyoto the Angel, at 19:52 on 22 Feb 99, the word on
the street was...

[snip "APDS" description]
> If I'm wrong, someone correct me, and tell me what I am talking about, as
> I'm sure I've heard of this before, unless I inadvertantly mixed two
> different types of bullets

You have mixed different types of bullets. What you describe is a normal
armor-piercing round, as used in rifles and machineguns. The soft outer
part is there mainly for keeping barrel wear down -- firing a bullet made
entirely of hardened steel or tungsten would wear out the rifling in the
barrel in no time at all.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
There's no such things as a "brown alert," sir.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 12
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: exchange rates, and APDS...pronounced APP-ee-das ? : )
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 11:44:09 +0100
According to dghost@****.com, at 0:08 on 23 Feb 99, the word on
the street was...

> Actually, I remember from somewhere that this is official or
> quasi-official. I don't recall from where, though... Gurth? You know
> everything ... any idea?

I don't know about that last statement :) but this particular thing you're
looking for is (like I say in another post) from the Denver boxed set's GM
book, page *flipping of pages* 54, in the right-hand column just about the
header "Getting the Goods". To be precise, it reads:

For equipment and items not listed in SRII, simply estimate the "real
world" cost of such an item (circa 1994) and convert the price from
dollars to nuyen at a 1:1 ratio, then adjust the result to fit your game.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
There's no such things as a "brown alert," sir.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 13
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: exchange rates, and APDS...pronounced APP-ee-das ? : )
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 11:44:09 +0100
According to Robert Watkins, at 10:38 on 23 Feb 99, the word on
the street was...

> In an APDS bullet, you have a hard, dense core (the 'armour piercing'
> portion), surrounded by a jacket that will come off when fired (the
> 'discarding sabot' portion). On being fired, the sabot will strip away from
> the dense core. This causes the bullet to become more stable or something,
> or possibly reduces the friction... I'm not exactly up on ammo design.

The way this works is that the round as a whole (including the sabots) is
usually lighter than a normal round would be, but it has the same amount
of propellant behind it. The net result is a higher velocity, and thus
more kinetic energy in the bullet. The reason the sabots fall away after
firing is because the smaller cross-section of the bullet makes it have
higher armor-piercing capabilities -- the same energy over a smaller area
means more energy per square millimeter, thus it'll punch through more
armor.

Even if the core+sabots assembly weighs as much as a normal round for the
gun (thus it will have the same energy), the smaller diameter of the
penetrator will make it pierce armor better.

> Modern APDS rounds are used in tank ammo, and there the core is, in fact,
> depleted uranium. One of the qualities of depleted uranium is that when you
> slam a bullet made out of it into a tank, it will combust, transferring a
> lot more energy into the tank than a lead bullet (which would bounce off in
> many cases). That's why tanks like it. However, it's bloody expensive, and
> DU wouldn't be so effective against a "soft" target like someone in a full
> suit of armour. So, no, APDS rounds for guns do not use DU. I think they use
> tungsten, but don't quote me.

Tungsten and uranium are the normal materials APFSDS is made of (BTW, APDS
isn't normally used in tank guns these days anymore), mainly because of
their very high specific gravity -- roughly 19, or about 1.5 times as
heavy as a piece of lead of the same dimensions. Again, this is because it
will give a higher kinetic energy and thus more armor will be pierced.

Tungsten is (and has been for many years) the material of choice for most
armies except in the US, who prefer(ed?) uranium. Although uranium will
burn when it hits iron at high velocity, it also has a big drawback in its
low-level radioactivity, which apparently gets worse once it has hit a
target. For example, in the Gulf War US troops were forbidden to search
wrecked Iraqi AFVs for souvenirs due to the radioactive conamination, and
current US Army vehicle manuals carry several warnings about the
radioactivity of certain types of ammunition.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
There's no such things as a "brown alert," sir.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 14
From: Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: exchange rates, and APDS...pronounced APP-ee-das ? : )
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 08:08:59 -0400
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to dghost@****.com."
]>FWIW, I've worked under the assumption that 1 nuyen has *approximately*
]the
]>same buying power in 2060 as $1 USD has in 1999. I should caveat this by
]>saying that this is NOT an "official" ruling, just a personal rule of
]thumb.
]>(The
]>"official" guidance we freelancers get from the DLOH is "use whatever
]sounds
]>right.") As always, YMMV.
]
]Actually, I remember from somewhere that this is official or
]quasi-official. I don't recall from where, though... Gurth? You know
]everything ... any idea?

Some folks have mentioned Denver as a source for this; I don't
have Denver, but Bug City, p. 131, says "If player characters
want to barter with or for an item that does not appear on that
list [a table in Bug City], begin negotiations with the cost of
the closest 1994 equivalent (U.S. dollars = nuyen)."

So there y'are, two sources.

Scott
Message no. 15
From: Sven De Herdt Sven.DeHerdt@***********.be
Subject: exchange rates, and APDS...pronounced APP-ee-das ? : )
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 14:39:35 +0100
You wrote:
>> For a good quality combat ready sword from $275 to $350..Check out
>> the Museum Replicas Unlilmited site for a better idea.. I don't have
>> a catalog handy or I would post their addy..
>>
>Are you sure, the last sword I bought cost me £75 and that is
definitely
>combat ready (well I suppose it could do with sharpening). I dunno
what the
>£ to $ conversion is at the moment, but I am paying 17.5% VAT (sales
tax)
>included in that price. Granted it isn't the nicest sword I have ever
>owned.

I think it highly depends on the quality of the metal and the finishing
touch. I have a catalog which holds combat-ready swords from $500 to
$1100, however these swords come in with a lifetime guarantee.

I had mine made by a blacksmith I know and only paid approximately $250.
It's a very nice sword that is completely combat-ready (it has already
been tested more than once.

Sven ;-)
Message no. 16
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: exchange rates, and APDS...pronounced APP-ee-das ? : )
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 08:38:13 -0500 (EST)
On Mon, 22 Feb 1999, Kyoto the Angel wrote:

> Don't know about the gun part, but he's right about 500 being quite a bit
> for a katana nowadays.

Um, no, $500 is a drop in the bucket, and all you're likely to get
is either a non-sharpenable alloy replica or a single piece of 440
stainless crap that has almost none of the metallurgical strength of a
traditional katana. Hell, I paid over that for my practice blade. My
instructor's sword (made the "old fashioned way" by a father&son team of
Japanese smiths) cost him like $7,000 and took over three months to
finish (though a significant portion of this time was finishing other
backlogged work before they got to his).
The problem is that a lot of people *think* they can make a
katana. They take a chunk of steel and hammer out a blade that's slightly
curved and sharp on one side and say, "look, I've made a katana." They're
wrong. That kind of sword bears almost no resemblance (metallurgically
speaking) to a katana made correctly, and making them correctly is pretty
much an exhaustive, time-consuming affair fraught with the possibility of
screwing it up and making it useless. And that's not even counting the
difficulty in correctly making and mounting the furniture for sword
(another thing that people just sort of assume "if it looks right, it
must be right" - and again they're wrong).

> But, as you said, in the SR future, they're now being built for combat,
> and hence would be using a lot sturdier metal, that may not be as
> pretty, would have sharper edges, and probably be taken a lot
> more seriously than they are nowadays.

Actually, there's nothing as impressivley beautiful as a
well-crafted, combat-ready sword. The real thing puts the "pretty"
decorative imitations to shame. There is no real way to duplicate the
nioi line (area where the steel crystals change size and shape), or the
hamon (temper line) without actually making the sword right.

> Hell, you can find swords nowadays that aren't even hand-made, I doubt
> this happens much in SR, except if technology happens to have found a
> way to make things better than they would be by hand.

One of the things that makes the handmade swords better is that
the carbon content tends to be different. The "old ways" of making swords
are slow, laborious processes that require actually making more than one
strip of steel, each of which has a different carbon content and lamellar
strength. Modern, machine-made swords tend to have a uniform carbon
content, as they are made from a single piece of metal. They can be
strong or they can be sharp, but it's really hard to do both well. In
some ways, modern steel is almost "too good" simply because the uniformity
actually makes the blade weaker overall.
But that's not to say that with 60 years of technological
advancement and a resurgence of "samurai culture" in Japan that someone
wouldn't figure out a way to do it right by machine.

Marc
Message no. 17
From: David Buehrer dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject: exchange rates, and APDS...pronounced APP-ee-das ? : )
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 07:07:59 -0700 (MST)
Gurth wrote:
/
/ According to Robert Watkins, at 10:38 on 23 Feb 99, the word on
/ the street was...
/
/ > In an APDS bullet, you have a hard, dense core (the 'armour piercing'
/ > portion), surrounded by a jacket that will come off when fired (the
/ > 'discarding sabot' portion). On being fired, the sabot will strip away from
/ > the dense core. This causes the bullet to become more stable or something,
/ > or possibly reduces the friction... I'm not exactly up on ammo design.
/
/ The way this works is that the round as a whole (including the sabots) is
/ usually lighter than a normal round would be, but it has the same amount
/ of propellant behind it. The net result is a higher velocity, and thus
/ more kinetic energy in the bullet. The reason the sabots fall away after
/ firing is because the smaller cross-section of the bullet makes it have
/ higher armor-piercing capabilities -- the same energy over a smaller area
/ means more energy per square millimeter, thus it'll punch through more
/ armor.

The smaller size also has less friction, making it more accurate over
long ranges.

Basically you end up with a high velocity, high mass round with a small
cross section that has good armor piercing ability and low drop off.

/ Tungsten and uranium are the normal materials APFSDS is made of (BTW, APDS
^^^^^^
Armor Piercing Fin Stabalized Discarding Sabot for the uninitiated :)

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
ShadowRN GridSec
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 18
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: exchange rates, and APDS...pronounced APP-ee-das ? : )
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 17:36:39 +0000
In article <199902231044.LAA21976@*****.xs4all.nl>, Gurth
<gurth@******.nl> writes
>After which it should be noted that the picture of APDS rounds in the
>Street Samurai Catalog is a bit... unrealistic. The sabots (the packing
>pieces around the bullet) are streamlined in the artwork there, which is
>exactly what they shouldn't be if they're to fall off ASAP when the bullet
>leaves the weapon's barrel :)

Actually, there's a couple of APDS small-arms rounds (looks like a
7.62mm Remington Accelerator and a .50BMG SLAP) at

http://www.firstdefense.com/html/arms_arms_and_ammunution.htm


Tapering the sabot doesn't significantly impede seperation: centrifugal
force spreads the 'petals' and air resistance pulls them away with no
difficulty. The sabot's got horrible aerodynamics, and there's little to
hold it to the projectile except friction.

What the smooth taper _does_ achieve, is to keep the cartridge's shape
close to that of a standard round, so it feeds and chambers cleanly:
remember a machine gun is eating ~500-600 of those rounds a minute.


--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 19
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: exchange rates, and APDS...pronounced APP-ee-das ? : )
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 19:32:31 +0100
According to Paul J. Adam, at 17:36 on 23 Feb 99, the word on
the street was...

> What the smooth taper _does_ achieve, is to keep the cartridge's shape
> close to that of a standard round, so it feeds and chambers cleanly:
> remember a machine gun is eating ~500-600 of those rounds a minute.

Yeah, forgot about that. When I think APDS I immediately think of MBT main
guns, not small arms. Manually-loaded guns don't care about the
projectile's shape all that much...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
There's no such things as a "brown alert," sir.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 20
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: exchange rates, and APDS...pronounced APP-ee-das ? : )
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 19:32:30 +0100
According to Sven De Herdt, at 14:39 on 23 Feb 99, the word on
the street was...

> I think it highly depends on the quality of the metal and the finishing
> touch. I have a catalog which holds combat-ready swords from $500 to
> $1100, however these swords come in with a lifetime guarantee.

Does anyone else see the joke in that last sentence? :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
There's no such things as a "brown alert," sir.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 21
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: exchange rates, and APDS...pronounced APP-ee-das ? : )
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 21:29:39 +0000
In article <a72b6551.36d228ff@***.com>, JonSzeto@***.com writes
>As others have noted, APDS consists of a hardened metal core, surrounded by
>a softer jacket (for small arms this would probably be some type of plastic).
>When the bullet clears the muzzle of the gun, the jacket falls away (usually
>by means of air resistance) while the core travels onward. This gives the
>projectile a smaller cross-section, which means (1) reduced energy loss from
>air drag and (2) a more concentrated energy transfer at the point of impact.

Also, it means you get the best of both worlds. In the barrel (internal
ballistics), the round is large and light and thus easily accelerated to
a very high velocity. Outside, once the sabot is discarded, it's small
and dense and _keeps_ that velocity.


Here I digress into ammunition history :) Two earlier versions were
APCNR and HVAP.

HVAP was an aluminium projectile with a hardened steel or tungsten core:
it was halfway to APDS, in that it was a large light projectile that
reached a terrific muzzle velocity (High Velocity Armour Piercing) and
had good penetration from the subcalibre core; but the large, light
shell suffered relatively badly from air drag and wind, losing velocity
and range faster than a conventional projectile.

APCNR was "Armour Piercing, Composite, Non-Rigid": it was the last step
before APDS, and was used on the British two-pounder AT gun. It
resembled a HVAP round, with a subcalibre tungsten core in an aluminium
body that achieved high muzzle velocity, but at the muzzle a tapered
adapter swaged the 'skirted' aluminium body down to make the projectile
smaller and give it better external ballistics. The downside was that
the gun could _only_ then fire APCNR, no canister or HE, but 2pdr APCNR
was a great boon to British and Commonwealth tank crews and gunners in
the Western Desert.



The logical next step, of course, was to have the aluminium body fall
away rather than be swaged down, eliminating the awkward and inflexible
muzzle attachment and improving performance further... and so to APDS.


>The metal core is usually made out of either tungsten or depleted uranium
>(the waste product left over after purifying raw uranium to make reactor-
>grade or weapons-grade fuel, and composed 99.xxx% of U-238). Up until a few
>years ago, APDS tank rounds were made of DU, but most militaries have been
>switching over to tungsten, partly because tungsten costs less,

Overall. DU is basically free if you're a nuclear power, and also fairly
useless (although it's used for counterweights and ballast in aircraft)

The problem is, the raw material's cheaper (piles of it sitting around
any uranium seperation plant) but it's much more expensive to handle and
work with.

>and partly
>because tungsten is easier to machine. (DU is also pyrophoric, which means it
>gets real
>hot and creates sparks when it strikes metal, but how much that special effect
>adds to the round's combat effectiveness is subject to some debate.)

As a treadhead acquaintance said to me, "when your body's being
perforated by hypersonic chunks of metal, who cares if they're burning
or not?"

>Now that Paul Adam is back on the list, he can probably cover whatever holes
>I may have overlooked.

... which means I couldn't resist leaping in. Thanks for the kind words,
Jon :)

--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 22
From: Airwasp@***.com Airwasp@***.com
Subject: exchange rates, and APDS...pronounced APP-ee-das ? : )
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 10:40:35 EST
In a message dated 2/22/1999 7:15:30 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
neil.clark@**********.com writes:

> does anyone have a good, founded idea of what the exchange rates are
> between nowaday US dollars and 205x's ¥s?
>
> personally, I've been estimating about 2¥ = $1.
>
Umm, it is actually the other way around, $2 to 1¥, and the same exchange rate
is roughly similar when comparing the dollor to the Euro of 2060. The Euro
and the Nuyen have roughly equivalent values to each other, subject to market
fluctuations of course.

-Herc

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