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Message no. 1
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Explosive APDS Rounds
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 10:29:02 -0700
Cubane is pretty tough stuff.
Still, I went through the calculations before, and Rat's pretty
much right. Assuming the entire mass of the payload end of the bullet is
explosive, you add from 30% to 100% of the kinetic energy of the round in
explosive kinetic energy, depending upon catridge dimensions.
One of the worst shapes to have a payload-carrying round in is
long, narrow and pointed, like a penetrator in an APDS round. Current
APDS rounds are about 7:1 length:diameter, great for delivering kinetic
energy but do pi*r^2*h calcs and you'll see that's not very good for
volume to surface area, in terms of getting more volume (bang) for the buck.
Furthermore, the purpose of a penetrator is to penetrate armor.
That means the penetrator has to maintain structural integrity while
violating the armor's. Hollow it out, and it becomes enormously weaker
_from the tip_. The Romans noticed that columns tend to support most of
the weight on the outer edges (they filled the interiors with sand) but
then they were distributing weight on the outer edges. A penetrator
takes the stress on the tip of the nose, which radiates stress outward at
all angles in the material.
If you really want "explosive APDS" you'd have to use a cubane
nose-cone on a cubane cylinder, with, say, crystalized hexogene in a
diamond matrix. Even then, the explosive probably wouldn't even shatter
the cubane unless you pre-stressed it, or increased your volume to
surface area ratio.
Even here, the cap would be vulnerable to face-hardened armor,
like say dikoted or cubane-layered.
So, the short answer is no. The long answer is, maybe, but it'll
cost and the effects are probably not worth the expense. Nonetheless,
here are stats:

Explosive APDS Avail: 24/1 month Street Index: 4 Cost: 100 per
round. Effects: No increase to Power (do not add +1 for Explosive
rounds). If the base Power is less than or equal to the original armor
rating, halve armor rating as for normal APDS but decrease Wound Level by
1. If this armor level has been augmented by dikoting and is greater than
or equal to the base power of the round, the round does no damage (the cap
has shattered). If the base Power is greater than the armor rating, halve
armor and increase Wound Level by 1.

These have been in my game, but no one has ever used them. Only
places like Saeder-Krupp and Ares have the technical equipment to make
these things, and even though they're 400 a pop to players its really the
Availability Rating that makes them hard to get. Unless their source is
Ares or S-K, I just make the roll and say something like "Say, if you
ever *do* find these maybe drop us a sample and we'll do some business..."

+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|Adam Getchell|acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu | ez000270@*******.ucdavis.edu |
| acgetchell |"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent"|
+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 2
From: Dust <rogan@*******.BERGEN.ORG>
Subject: Explosive APDS rounds
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 13:44:01 -0400
How would explosive APDS rounds work?

Dust

P.S. Like Fields of Fire says anyone ever try dikoting flechettes?
Message no. 3
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Explosive APDS rounds
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 21:33:36 EDT
On Mon, 9 Jun 1997 13:44:01 -0400 Dust <rogan@*******.BERGEN.ORG> writes:
>How would explosive APDS rounds work?


I'd bet they would work a lot like a combination of explosive and APDS
rounds. A small, explosive bullet surrounded by a discrading sabot, when
fired it produces higher speeds than the normal version of the bullet,
due to the lighter mass of the round, the sabot falls off, the bullet
explodes on impact. <shrug> It's not that difficult.


>P.S. Like Fields of Fire says anyone ever try dikoting flechettes?


<shudder> Besides being a horrendously expensive and complicated project,
the bullets would have to be custom made.


--
-Canthros
And ye shall know the truth, and lobo1@****.com
the truth shall set you free. canthros1@***.com
--John 8:32, KJV
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 4
From: Kim Christiansen <kimc@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Explosive APDS rounds
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 22:44:21 +0100
> From: Dust <rogan@*******.BERGEN.ORG>
> Subject: Explosive APDS rounds
>
> How would explosive APDS rounds work?
>
> Dust
>
Well, I'm not sure you can do it, although the explosive rounds are
described somewhere as being
more of a fragmentation device upon impact, like hollow points. It is not
so much that they are
"mini-grenades" as they are fragmentation rounds. They probably do have a
small explosive in them,
so if you used a casing of dsicarding sabot rounds, the force to create
fragmentation would have to be
fairly large. I know the books talk about it, so I assume it is true, but I
would limit the power
increase to +1 (unlike the +2 of the EX Explosive on P51 FoF, but I would
make the cost the same as
both APDS and EX Explosive added together and target numbers for
availability added as well, this
stuff would seriously frag your game balance up, IMHO...)

kim
Message no. 5
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Explosive APDS rounds
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 02:50:34 -0500
You wrote:
> > How would explosive APDS rounds work?

As I understand it:
APDS rounds work by discarding some of their mass enroute to the target, giving
all the momentum to a smaller projectile which thus penetrates armor. Not only
would they be unable to hold as much explosive as a typical round, but making
the round explosive would defeat the greater penetration qualities of APDS. I
remember hearing someone else mention this from a novel, but don't think it was
thought out particularly well.

losthalo
Message no. 6
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Explosive APDS rounds
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 11:43:19 +0100
Kim Christiansen said on 22:44/10 Jun 97...

> > How would explosive APDS rounds work?
> >
> > Dust
> >
> Well, I'm not sure you can do it, although the explosive rounds are
> described somewhere as being more of a fragmentation device upon impact,

True. An explosive round just uses the (very small) explosive charge to
destroy the bullet on impact with the target, causing more of it to end up
inside the target than would happen with a regular bullet. Incidentally,
this should make firing through targets really difficult with explosive
rounds.

> like hollow points.

Hollowpoints don't fragment, they mushroom.

> It is not so much that they are "mini-grenades" as they are
> fragmentation rounds. They probably do have a small explosive in them,
> so if you used a casing of dsicarding sabot rounds, the force to create
> fragmentation would have to be fairly large. I know the books talk about
> it, so I assume it is true, but I would limit the power increase to +1
> (unlike the +2 of the EX Explosive on P51 FoF, but I would make the cost
> the same as both APDS and EX Explosive added together and target numbers
> for availability added as well, this stuff would seriously frag your
> game balance up, IMHO...)

Explosive APDS (E-APDS? APDS-E? APEDS?) rounds shouldn't be too hard to
make, IMHO. You just make a normal explosive bullet, but of a smaller
caliber than you need for the rifle, and put some lightweight packing (the
DS in APDS) around it. For example, say your rifle is 7.62 mm, then you
make a 6 mm explosive round and use plastic or whatever to increase the
diameter by more than 1.62 mm. You probably would need to carefully design
the bullet so as to give it some AP capability, like put the explosive in
the tail of the bullet, so the nose is solid metal, and can be used to
penetrate body armor before the bullet explodes. (With the explosive in
the nose, my guess is it would likely explode outside the armor.)

For game effects, I'd treat these as EX Explosives but only with a +1
Power Level (this means that it's impossible to make APEDS rounds that do
+2 damage), and armor is only 2/3 effective, rather than 1/2. For prices,
something like this sounds about right to me: Availability 16/14 days,
Cost 125 nuyen per 10, Street Index 4.5.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Drowning in the main-stream.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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