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Message no. 1
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Extraterritoriality present day
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 00:13:37 +0000
Now if this isn't good RL examples to the recent discussion....

Tuesday, a Mossad agent was apprehended while doing surveillance on
the Iranian embassy in Switzerland (sp?). The Swiss government
demands a public apology from Israel, while Israel works towards
getting the agent deported.

The issue is, as of yet, unresolved.

Israel has lost a lot of political goodwill lately, which is probably
why the affair has not been handled more quietly.

Also note - Mossad agents are professional in general. He did *not*
shoot at the Swiss police.

Mossad appears to be quite active at monitoring islamic countries'
activities in europe. Here, Mossad is suspected to be behind an
assassination back in the 80's.

As a side note, a recent EU report states that the USA is tapping a
lot of european e-mail and phone calls. From the source I read there
was no number or percentage, except the words 'surprisingly many'.
Make of that as you wish...

But UCAS in 2060 ought to be a lot more paranoid.



--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 2
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Extraterritoriality present day
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:48:25 -0500
>As a side note, a recent EU report states that the USA is tapping a lot
>of european e-mail and phone calls. From the source I read there was
>no number or percentage, except the words 'surprisingly many'.
>Make of that as you wish...
>
>But UCAS in 2060 ought to be a lot more paranoid.

Keep in mind that as voice recognition software (my specialiality)
improves, it will be possible to have a computer listen to several
thousand simultaneous conversations and evaluate each one based on
language spoken, probable identities of known suspects, keywords
used ("bomb", "great satan", "C-4", "anthrax",
whatever), and send
transcripts of the days most interesting 100 calls to the head of the
NSA, 24 hours a day. When? We can do some of this now (I don't think
I can tell you how much) and probably all of it by 2015. What they will
work on from 2015 to 2060? I can't even imagine...

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 3
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Extraterritoriality present day
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:03:06 -0500
On Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 10:48:25AM -0500, Mike Elkins wrote:
<SNIP>
> Keep in mind that as voice recognition software (my specialiality)
> improves, it will be possible to have a computer listen to several
> thousand simultaneous conversations and evaluate each one based on
> language spoken, probable identities of known suspects, keywords
> used ("bomb", "great satan", "C-4",
"anthrax", whatever), and send
> transcripts of the days most interesting 100 calls to the head of the
> NSA, 24 hours a day. When? We can do some of this now (I don't think
> I can tell you how much) and probably all of it by 2015. What they will
> work on from 2015 to 2060? I can't even imagine...
>

Heh..and we wonder why encryption is becoming a bigger and bigger
deal. I forsee a time, where no email, or phone call won't be encrypted
to one degree or another.
The other fun part, is at what point does this start violating
civil rights. (Of course in SR, its sorta a mute point, since corps
don't care, and sinless have no rights).

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Uh-Oh Toto, it doesn't look like we're gods anymore."
Message no. 4
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Extraterritoriality present day
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 14:50:07 +0100
Mike Elkins said on 10:48/27 Feb 98...


> Keep in mind that as voice recognition software (my specialiality)
> improves, it will be possible to have a computer listen to several
> thousand simultaneous conversations and evaluate each one based on
> language spoken, probable identities of known suspects, keywords
> used ("bomb", "great satan", "C-4",
"anthrax", whatever), and send
> transcripts of the days most interesting 100 calls to the head of the
> NSA, 24 hours a day.

I can see it happening already: your phone's tapped, you call
1-800-PSYCHIC, hear "I see for you great things happening in the future"
and a SWAT team kicks in your sdoor a few hours later...

:)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
They say they know what's best for me.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 5
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Extraterritoriality present day
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:16:44 +1000
Lehlan Decker writes:
>The other fun part, is at what point does this start violating
>civil rights. (Of course in SR, its sorta a mute point, since corps
>don't care, and sinless have no rights).


I wish people would get this right... SINLess, in the UCAS anyway, have
rights. They have the same rights as someone with a SIN, except possibly the
right to vote, but they could get a SIN and get that too.

Of course, on corp turf, your milage may vary. But in the UCAS, the SINless
are people too, you know.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident..." and all that jazz.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 6
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: Extraterritoriality present day
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:45:11 GMT
On Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:16:44 +1000, Robert Watkins wrote:

> Lehlan Decker writes:
> >The other fun part, is at what point does this start violating
> >civil rights. (Of course in SR, its sorta a mute point, since corps
> >don't care, and sinless have no rights).
>
>
> I wish people would get this right... SINLess, in the UCAS anyway, have
> rights. They have the same rights as someone with a SIN, except possibly the
> right to vote, but they could get a SIN and get that too.
>
> Of course, on corp turf, your milage may vary. But in the UCAS, the SINless
> are people too, you know.

Is this canon? Could you provide references? I'm not calling you a liar
but I would like to show this to my ref.



James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";
ICQ: 7521644 (Sharkey)

Mano au mano, the "Professor"
would kick MacGyver's ass.
Message no. 7
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Extraterritoriality present day
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:01:47 -0500
On Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 05:45:11PM +0000, James Lindsay wrote:
> On Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:16:44 +1000, Robert Watkins wrote:
<SNIP>
> > I wish people would get this right... SINLess, in the UCAS anyway, have
> > rights. They have the same rights as someone with a SIN, except possibly the
> > right to vote, but they could get a SIN and get that too.
> >
> > Of course, on corp turf, your milage may vary. But in the UCAS, the SINless
> > are people too, you know.
>
> Is this canon? Could you provide references? I'm not calling you a liar
> but I would like to show this to my ref.
>
>
>
Hmm...I most have missed the first reply. As far as I know there
are several references through the novels, Lone Star book, and probably
even BBB. The way I understand it, you need a SIN for just about
everything. You can't open a bank account, purchase a car, rent a house
etc. Anything legitimate is out, because you simply don't exist electronically. A modern
day correlation. Either your Drivers License #, or your
Social Security #. You can't get any an ATM card, or open an account
without them. You can't write a check without a drivers license. You
can't register to vote without them either. They are you official way
to be "tracked". Now take this to the next level, add in the Matrix, and
you get SIN's. (Since they can't tax you, you don't exist to them).
If you guys really want page #'s, I'll dig through the books tonight.
(But I'm guessing others can beat me to it).


--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Uh-Oh Toto, it doesn't look like we're gods anymore."
Message no. 8
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Extraterritoriality present day
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:14:37 +1000
Lehlan Decker writes:
>Hmm...I most have missed the first reply. As far as I know there
>are several references through the novels, Lone Star book, and probably
>even BBB. The way I understand it, you need a SIN for just about
>everything. You can't open a bank account, purchase a car, rent a house
>etc. Anything legitimate is out, because you simply don't exist
electronically.
>
>A modern day correlation. Either your Drivers License #, or your
>Social Security #. You can't get any an ATM card, or open an account
>without them. You can't write a check without a drivers license. You
>can't register to vote without them either. They are you official way
>to be "tracked". Now take this to the next level, add in the Matrix, and
>you get SIN's. (Since they can't tax you, you don't exist to them).
>If you guys really want page #'s, I'll dig through the books tonight.
>(But I'm guessing others can beat me to it).


True, you can't do a lot of those things. But you can't work in the USA if
you're not a citizen and don't have the right sort of visa, either. But you
still have basic rights.

Yeah, a SIN gives you more rights, just as the Social Security Number does
now. But you have rights to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"
and all that jazz.

If you kill a SINless person, in cold blood, you've committed murder. You've
violated one of their basic rights: the right to life. Nor can you
unlawfully detain a SINless person.

SINs, BTW, are not status symbols. You can get a SIN by applying for one,
just like a modern Social Security Number. You just have to explain what
happened to your old one. If you get arrested, and you don't have a SIN,
you'll get assigned one.

The SINless are such people as illegal immigrants, ghetto dwellers who don't
know how to get them (imagine third generation ghetto dwellers, with no
schooling, no hospitals for childbirth, etc), and those who have
deliberately dropped out of society. Of course, there are a LOT of such
people, especially in Seattle.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 9
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Extraterritoriality present day
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:06:46 +1000
James Lindsay writes:
>> Lehlan Decker writes:
>> >The other fun part, is at what point does this start violating
>> >civil rights. (Of course in SR, its sorta a mute point, since corps
>> >don't care, and sinless have no rights).
>> I wish people would get this right... SINLess, in the UCAS anyway, have
>> rights. They have the same rights as someone with a SIN, except possibly
the
>> right to vote, but they could get a SIN and get that too.
>>
>> Of course, on corp turf, your milage may vary. But in the UCAS, the
SINless
>> are people too, you know.
>Is this canon? Could you provide references? I'm not calling you a liar
>but I would like to show this to my ref.


It's canon. When the United States and Canada merged, they kept the
fundamentals of their respective constitutions, both of which give basic
rights to all people within their borders, not just citizens.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com

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